This is the mentality that got characters like She Hulk and Tron nerfed.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
Karsticles
Member
If you mean the Gustaff Fire nerf, that's the best thing to happen to this game. That assist was a piece of shit for the metagame, right up there with Hidden Missiles.
If you mean her j.H nerf, that was never brainless. You could air throw her or anti-air her out of it. I don't even consider it a good move most of the time. j.L and j.S are where it's at. I honestly don't get why j.H was a problem, you can see the cross-up coming from a mile away.
She-Hulk had Morrigan syndrome. She was top tier behind a ridiculously good assist, and that assist got castrated. Was She-Hulk still top tier after that? Probably not. Unfortunately, Capcom overnerfs habitually. The same will probably happen to Morrigan. Luckily, I survived with her in Vanilla, and it can't get any worse than that...
Capcom just needs to take the time to understand the difference between "bullshit this character can do" and "bullshit this character can do when backed up by a bullshit assist".
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I should troll with felicia/spencer resets
I was talking about the j.H Tron nerf and stuff like nerf on cr.L/Slide for She Hulk.
J.H was pretty brain dead though. It has a pretty big hit box, crossed up and lead into a TOD. Tron could actually fight Vanilla Wolverine + Akuma because of this move.
I am just saying be careful what you wish for. A lot of lower tier characters have some legitimately dumb stuff as well.
J.H was pretty brain dead though. It has a pretty big hit box, crossed up and lead into a TOD. Tron could actually fight Vanilla Wolverine + Akuma because of this move.
I am just saying be careful what you wish for. A lot of lower tier characters have some legitimately dumb stuff as well.
Professor Beef
Banned
I think instead of having alternate teams (aside from ____/Hulk/Sentinel because it's fun as fuck), I'm just going to alternate anchors with Joe/Frank/_____.
Karsticles
Member
j.H wasn't any more braindead than tridash attacks. That is, it's effective, but it has a counter. What bothers me is moves like zip line that have no downside at all. Hits? Combo. Blocked? Frame advantage. Gets you in from anywhere? Check. Tron's j.H dominated because folks didn't take the time to test how to beat it.
My memory of She-Hulk's slide is vague, and I'm at least five times the player now that I was at the end of Vanilla, so it's hard to gauge. I don't consider those "dumb", though. She-Hulk has to be in to use c.L, so she's earned it with her moveset. Big normals and projectiles beat the slide. The slide is probably roughly as dumb as Haggar's pipe (which I am fine with).
I don't consider them that dumb either nor did I consider the characters overall that dumb but Capcom did because they saw people winning with braindead tactics so they nerfed it. It's about what Capcom perceives as braindead and dumb.
Spencer brought MVC3 hype and thus will never be too radically nerfed. People can't get enough of Bionic Arm.
Spencer brought MVC3 hype and thus will never be too radically nerfed. People can't get enough of Bionic Arm.
DeadPhoenix9065
Member
But where do we draw the line at what is "brain dead" "dumb" or "Broken?"
Here's what I would like removed from the game:
Spencer does Bionic Arm. I reaction block then decide to try to do Hyper Stars and Stripes. If I wait too long before I input the DP hyper, I get qcb hyper. Since Bionic Arm is so damn fast and since most Spencers do it when they're within 1/4 or 1/3 of the screen, my Hyper Stars and Stripes turns into Hyper Charging Star and I get hit plus lose the meter.
I don't know what it's called (move buffer?), but remove/reduce it please. No reason why I should be holding back, PAUSE/go to neutral, then do a full DP motion and still get qcb.
Spencer does Bionic Arm. I reaction block then decide to try to do Hyper Stars and Stripes. If I wait too long before I input the DP hyper, I get qcb hyper. Since Bionic Arm is so damn fast and since most Spencers do it when they're within 1/4 or 1/3 of the screen, my Hyper Stars and Stripes turns into Hyper Charging Star and I get hit plus lose the meter.
I don't know what it's called (move buffer?), but remove/reduce it please. No reason why I should be holding back, PAUSE/go to neutral, then do a full DP motion and still get qcb.
WesternHeretic
Member
Why do you always pick on characters that I like? Leave Spencer, Dante, and Nova alone please.
Karsticles
Member
Broken = has no counters outside of X-Factor
Brain Dead = advantageous if your plan succeeds or your plan fails on multiple levels, very difficult to fail with
I don't really use the term "dumb", so I have no definition there.
So to me, Tron's j.H is neither broken nor brain dead. I c.M'd Tron Bonne into oblivion throughout Vanilla. The only Tron I ever had problems with was Al_Rikir (he was at Canada Cup, top 8 I think with Tron), and that's because he's super good and actually uses her full toolset like j.L, j.S, and TK'd Bonne Strike.
She-Hulk I only had experience with when she was backed by Gustaff Fire, so I can't give an intelligent response about her. Gustaff Fire was likely the problem, and not She-Hulk. Her slide made me salty in Vanilla, but probably because I couldn't rush her down or do anything else (Vanilla Dormammu's keepaway was ass).
Vergil with extensive meter is borderline broken, but not quite because he's very susceptible to snap ins against opponents who don't get hit by Helm Breaker.
This definitely needs fixing. If you do qcf hyper and DHC into qcf hyper after resetting to neutral and waiting half a second, you'll get a dp hyper. WAT?
Also, block with Dormammu, release 1D2C = oops I teleported on top of my opponent and died. FUCK. So tired of that happening, and I don't have time to make a HCB motion.
Why do you like the characters with the most brain dead stuff? ;-) Except for Dante. I'm okay with Dante in his current form minus the bold cancel nonsense.
"God's Beard!"
Member
GGs to Solune, 907 games
Wesker/Spencer/Phoenix is real?
Wesker/Spencer/Phoenix is real?
WesternHeretic
Member
Not against good people...
I mean your wesker has no assist unless you calling phx. Spencer is what an extension? I'm assuming on slant shot for resets. Or just combo extension.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I use horizontal shot. So good. It's the same use as disruptor, only confirms better but can't happy birthday.
Karsticles
Member
Storm optimized TAC infinite:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZlG5rYM-84
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZlG5rYM-84
"God's Beard!"
Member
Takes too long to do a move out of it. You should be able to tech throws instantly am I right?
Karsticles
Member
If the match was 1v1, you would be right. Dormammu couldn't even safely down-back air dash in Vanilla. Guh. He had so many problems no one knew about outside of those who played him.
Bold cancel to block is the problem. No one should be safe when whiffing normals from full-screen for free.
"God's Beard!"
Member
XxSlasherMcGirkxX
Member
I had no idea until today that Felicia could charge to gain meter.
Karsticles
Member
I know. Makes me so happy. In Vanilla my execution was still really bad (I'd say it's decent now, but not good or great), so I thought I was just messing up the cancel every time. Nope, Vanilla Dormammu, once he's in the air, HAS TO air dash straight down or down-forward and attack. He has no other option. RIDICULOUS.He can cancel his down-back airdash now
Then there was a lack of a universal hit confirm. I don't even understand why Iron Man players complain because I played Vanilla Dormammu. I had to goddamn convert into combos off of c.L as my hit confirm. c.L!
The only thing I really miss from Vanilla Dormammu is the old c.M. I've been using that a lot recently against tridashers and it's really hard to confirm off of now.
What really made me laugh in Vanilla was when people complained about Dormammu's keepaway. It was ass. The demon could not keep a paper from flying out a window behind him if his life depended on it. It was rushdown Dormammu or die.
Ultimate fixed him in so many ways. So when people say they're scared of balance, I kind of don't get it because my two Vanilla mains got fixed. Phoenix got the nerf hammer hard, but I'd still be happy with her if TAC glitches got fixed.
She can even cancel her normals into it and it increases her frame advantage.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I miss TK Shot teleport.
DeadPhoenix9065
Member
So why the Nerf hammer on Phoenix? Traps not disappearing as well as TK shot not disappearing when she was hit was obviously broken. Only small tweaks were really needed. Startup on Tk shot was a step in the right direction, but not the whole one shot and no defense. Lower health? I just can't understand why Capcom nerfed her to hell and back when she really didn't need to be hammered but just tweaked...
And what I also don't understand is why no one tried ask for nerfs on her reasonably.
I don't see how this is justifiable.
Sure only a handful of characters could stop the crap she did in the air, but the same could be said about morrigan and Dorm. Dorm is different since he has to charge spells, and morrigan has to fly and unfly non-stop. But what they have what Phoenix didn't was health...
If they do nerf they better not over do it...I'd rather be scared of Vergil and his swords then laugh at him with his wiffle bat swords
as do I...as do I...
Karsticles
Member
Fleshing out my idea from the other thread:
Apex made me sad, because it showed to be true what every Phoenix player already knows: she's goddamn easy to counter now. Between Spiral Swords, Ouroboros, Soul Drain, and TAC glitches, I laugh when I see people consistently let Dark Phoenix onto the field. As a Morrigan player, I've played Phoenix users in hundreds of matches, and maybe 20% of the time she gets to come out because I have so many Soul Drain set ups to make sure she dies once and never comes back.
So I suggest a new hyper for Phoenix:
Overload
0 Bars
Frames: 10 startup, 0 recovery, +15 on block, +40 on hit.
Input: rdp.AA
Deals 375,000 damage to Phoenix and creates an explosive sphere 25% larger than the one created by Dark Phoenix rises. Deals 200,000 damage to opponents caught in the blast and places them in a spinning knockdown.
In my mind, if you earned the 5 bars for Phoenix, your opponent should have to contend with that. It's one thing to have characters that have an easier time against Dark Phoenix, like Vergil and Strider, and it's another to have so many ways to prevent her from coming out at all that are built into the game engine. Ideally, TACs will be fixed in the future, but I still think this is a good idea that has a place in Phoenix's moveset.
Full disclosure: I am a Phoenix user.
Apex made me sad, because it showed to be true what every Phoenix player already knows: she's goddamn easy to counter now. Between Spiral Swords, Ouroboros, Soul Drain, and TAC glitches, I laugh when I see people consistently let Dark Phoenix onto the field. As a Morrigan player, I've played Phoenix users in hundreds of matches, and maybe 20% of the time she gets to come out because I have so many Soul Drain set ups to make sure she dies once and never comes back.
So I suggest a new hyper for Phoenix:
Overload
0 Bars
Frames: 10 startup, 0 recovery, +15 on block, +40 on hit.
Input: rdp.AA
Deals 375,000 damage to Phoenix and creates an explosive sphere 25% larger than the one created by Dark Phoenix rises. Deals 200,000 damage to opponents caught in the blast and places them in a spinning knockdown.
In my mind, if you earned the 5 bars for Phoenix, your opponent should have to contend with that. It's one thing to have characters that have an easier time against Dark Phoenix, like Vergil and Strider, and it's another to have so many ways to prevent her from coming out at all that are built into the game engine. Ideally, TACs will be fixed in the future, but I still think this is a good idea that has a place in Phoenix's moveset.
Full disclosure: I am a Phoenix user.
YES YES YESSSSSSSSSSSSS
Professor Beef
Banned
You're fucking insane, Karst.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Just call Vergil's lawnmower assist with Spiral Swords on to counter it.
XxSlasherMcGirkxX
Member
No Karst that is crazy. How about it justs auto kills Phoenix and brings out Dark Phoenix and puts you and your opponent into a neutral state.
XxSlasherMcGirkxX
Member
XFD Never change God's Beard
Professor Beef
Banned
I'm hopping on Marvel if anyone wants to play.
"God's Beard!"
Member
gimme a few minutes and I'll log on
Karsticles
Member
I'd settle for it causing the normal explosion with no damage, but no explosion at all would be suicide since she could get beamed or something from full screen, or Vergil could just activate Spiral Swords next to her anyway. I just love crazy shit. :-D
rofl
Real talk, if I made a fighting game every single character would be Dark Phoenix, Strider with high health, my BoF2 Nina, Dormammu with self-creating Hidden Missiles, permanent Devil Trigger Vergil, and Spencer in his current state. Except Strider would be able to teleport in the air, and every character's specials would be cancelable into every other special because why the fuck not!
How much pull does Tieri have? Like, I get that it's a good thing, but how much of a good thing?
Not much to none. Capcom invites him on Unity event streams often to talk cause they like the guy.
For reference, the biggest thing that's attributed to him is writing the game's story.. which says a lot. But he also contributed to writing a lot of the great lines in the game, which are top notch BTW. It's a minor victory because if he is involved, we know the quips and writing would be good.
WesternHeretic
Member
I like TOD characters. I like pressing buttons. I like doing combos. That's my biggest downfall really. All this zoning, and spacing shit not for me. I just want to press buttons!
BUTTONS BUTTONS BUTTONS!
Karsticles
Member
The reasons I made the sphere bigger and had it do damage + spinning knockdown are:
1) You are sacrificing a character that can get a lot of work done here. It seems like there should be some kind of benefit beyond going Dark.
2) If it did damage + spinning knockdown, it's really hot to think of using this as Phoenix and DHCing to Devil Trigger to kill someone - hahaha. The ultimate "deathwish" strategy. If I played Spencer I would start rounds with Bionic Arm sometimes because why not?
1) You are sacrificing a character that can get a lot of work done here. It seems like there should be some kind of benefit beyond going Dark.
2) If it did damage + spinning knockdown, it's really hot to think of using this as Phoenix and DHCing to Devil Trigger to kill someone - hahaha. The ultimate "deathwish" strategy. If I played Spencer I would start rounds with Bionic Arm sometimes because why not?
DeadPhoenix9065
Member
Well if she does change, she's practically uses up what health she does have. I'd say what ever amount of health she has affects the blast radius, the more health the big the radius
Professor Beef
Banned
If you give her that explosion, she should lose health at 3x the normal rate.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Ok logging on
You had something going with Nina, then you just created MUGEN 2.0
Karsticles
Member
I thought about doing that or making the damage higher/lower depending on how far the opponent is.
I'm cool with that. If my opponent doesn't die before XF3 is gone I'll probably lose anyway. ^_^
I have a series of Word Doc files for game ideas that would be the Platinum Games of 2D. Do you think Overload would be fair if the damage was removed, and it was just her normal explosion?
Professor Beef
Banned
Did I mention that it's non-recoverable and she CAN die from running out of health? Because I should've added that in.
"God's Beard!"
Member
yo beef where you at?
Karsticles
Member
As long as X-Factor protects it, I don't care.
Give me my 20 seconds of death and destruction.He's following in your footsteps of trolling my imaginary creations.
Professor Beef
Banned
As long as X-Factor protects it, I don't care.
non-recoverable
You and Dahbomb have problems reading.
Karsticles
Member
I read just fine. She doesn't recover the drained health in X-Factor, it's prevented (AFAIK).non-recoverable
You and Dahbomb have problems reading.
I don't know, you'd have to go in-depth whether the explosion has invincibility frames, if Phoenix is in an air state or not, and if she's able to kill herself with said explosion. Lots of mechanics revolve around these types of states.
Karsticles
Member
Hmm? I thought it was pretty explicit that she kills herself with the explosion.
Let's say that for all purposes aside from damage and radius, it's the same as Dark Phoenix Rising.
crimsonspider89
Banned
And She Hulk with a four way airdash as fast as Magneto's, the pole have enough durability points to cancel out any none projectile hyper as well as being run cancelable.
Also a 1 F teleport that can be runner stance canceled if blocked.
Also a 1 F teleport that can be runner stance canceled if blocked.