Professor Beef
Banned
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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
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Smurfx is banned from answering this question.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
You should focus on your match vs. Beef.
that what you deserve when you're two dumbass companies that hate free money
"God's Beard!"
Member
My what now?
Karsticles
Member
He has an armored dash attack, what more do you need?!
Compare Hulk vs. Haggar. If Hulk could do cancelable ground dashes, what would Haggar have over him besides Double Lariat? And would that be enough to compensate for Hulk having a good projectile, great hypers, armor on his moves, an anti-air command grab, and an armored command dash? My hunch is "no".
I hate that Hulk's ground movement is so awkward, too, but it's difficult to recommend that change when he's compared against another heavy.
GB, take more time to think about this stuff. Taskmaster has better normals? Better zoning? Not in my experience (he certainly can't gunshot + beam, teleport, and get full combos from near full screen). Better hypers? I didn't know Taskmaster had a hyper that gives him a permanent X-Factor boost.
Not to mention Wesker has a goddamn 1 frame command grab, can get full combos off of his air throws, and has FUCKING TELEPORTS. Just stop and think before you post this shit. Wesker has a ton going for him, you can't just list Taskmaster's advantages like he's a better character and Wesker needs more.
And Taskmaster can only combo off of his counters with an assist and in certain situations, last time I checked. I'm glad to be proven wrong.
XxSlasherMcGirkxX
Member
Uh so he doesn't have to bunny hop just to safely move or gamma charge to get to the other side of the screen.
Edit: I'm not saying he should have Haggar like wave dashing, just to be able to block during his dash, kinda how some people want that for Morrigan.
That's right! Shut up and take my money Capcom!
Nemesis could use a lot of things... Decent armor, better assists, a better level 3 hyper.
EDIT: Beef, does nemesis have any good assists? I only use him in random select so I don't really know.
Professor Beef
Banned
I really want Nemesis to have more armor frames on his H normals. He might as well not even have them with the way they currently are.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I don't think of Phantom Dance as an x-factor boost. He's a crotchety old man and Phantom Dance is just his way of remembering the good old days.
Standing H has the same number of super armor frames as Wesker's high counter's active frames! Share the joy!
Standing H has the same number of super armor frames as Wesker's high counter's active frames! Share the joy!
Karsticles
Member
You can block during his dash, by doing up-back. Just like Dormammu and Dr. Doom. What you want is to be able to crouch-block, which means you need to be able to crouch, which means you need to be able to crouch-cancel your dash, which means he'd be able to wave dash by default.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScIu5qrMaxQ&t=02m20s
XxSlasherMcGirkxX
Member
I would agree with this. Heck I'd agree with giving his assists slightly more armor too.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I need a 2nd slot character. Dormammu is fun but I pretty much only use him because he has the best hyper and the best assist in the game. Moving around with him is no bueno.
DeadPhoenix9065
Member
But isn't it hyper armor?
Professor Beef
Banned
Pretty sure it isn't. Not like it matters, he gets hit before the armor can even start. I think the only thing he has hyper armor on is his punching Super, and that only lasts for the first two punches.
XxSlasherMcGirkxX
Member
.........
"God's Beard!"
Member
At least Deadpool's looks cool.
Karsticles
Member
I haven't taken the time to master the inputs for the flame carpet juggles on small characters. I'm focusing my training time on movement during flight and getting Morrigan's bnb down. I just stumbled across a really nice bnb for Dormammu that works on anyone with my team in corners:
j.S, c.LHS, sj.H, fly, j.LH, Dark Hole L, j.HS, Flame Carpet + TK Overdrive, Dark Matter, Dark Matter x Dark Hole, Chaotic Flame -> Astral Vision, Soul Drain, fly, j.S, Shadow Blade H, fly Shadow Blade H.
Then there's the combo that does 840K for 1 bar:
j.S, c.LHS, sj.H, fly, j.LH, Dark Hole L, j.HS, Dark Spell L, Flame Carpet + TK Overdrive, Dark Matter x Dark Spell M, s.S, 1D1C, Purification, Chaotic Flame
It's really hard to do consistently, though. Lots of awkward links.
So, I'm always developing tech and practicing new stuff, but a combo that only works on small characters is pretty low on my priority list. If I'm fighting Wolverine I'm generally trying to run the hell away since rushing him is suicide vs. drill claw and dive kick, and because he tends to be backed by tatsu assist which >>>> all of Dormammu's normals (seriously, an Akuma spamming Tatsu > all of Dormammu's tridash attacks in front and behind).
It can be weird using multiple characters with air dashes, because the trijump angles are different. Like, I can use Dormammu, Phoenix, and Morrigan just fine, but I can't use Storm for crap because I always get her j.S angle wrong, and I whiff Trish's j.S all the time. It can take a lot of work to get a feel on the different superjump speeds, air dash speeds, hitboxes, and proper angles, and sometimes using 2-3 characters with similar abilities messes you up. At least that's my experience.
JeTmAn81
Member
Dorm seems pretty mobile to me. Tridashes, teleports, flight...the only thing that sucks about his mobility is his ground dash.
"God's Beard!"
Member
And I looooooooove ground dashes.
JeTmAn81
Member
That's true, though the basic skills (jump up, dash down-forward, hit attack button) transfer pretty well between the different airdashers. It just takes time playing a character to fully absorb all the nuances. But the ability is definitely there for Dorm, as you Dorm players well know and demonstrate. Dorm's swipes seem pretty braindead to me in terms of hitboxes.
Though I was confused recently after playing some Dorms that seemed to be able to teleport on top of me and tridash into attacks pretty easily. It wasn't working for me, so I tried horizontal dashing into an attack instead and that connected. Maybe that's what they were doing.
Magneto seems to require the most finesse out of the airdashers. I'm still trying to get a feel for the exact right distance for doing a normal jump into tridash j.L. For the longest time I was trying to do that from a superjump and it seems far less effective that way.
Karsticles
Member
Tridash attacks in general don't take a lot of thought. The intelligence of attacking with Dormammu comes mainly from the positioning aspect of the attacks. You absolutely need to cross up with the attacks against good opponents. If I tridash attack Solune from the front he'll air throw me and Dormammu dies. Even then he's one of the more slow movers. It rather baffles me how often people watch me superjump with Dormammu and just stay on the ground and try to block the attack.
For example, if I were a Wesker player, and Dormammu superjumped to attack, I would dash back and try to time a gunshot + beam as he's coming down. Dormammu doesn't have a lot of left/right leverage in his aerial approaches like Magneto does, so it's actually pretty easy to get out from under him. Blocking in Marvel is always the worst position to be in, and Dormammu is no exception there.
Then there's small characters like Wolverine and X-23. They have good anti-airs that lead to full combos, and crossing them up with j.S is extremely hard if you have to fly-maneuver and they decide to crouch. It seems counter-productive, but crouching against Dormammu's j.S approach is very effective for smaller characters because Dormammu has to choose between using a deep j.S that hits all the way to the ground, which is less safe and easy to air throw, and a shallow j.S that hits the tip of characters. Most Dormammu players do the latter, since the former is too easy to counter.
As for your last part, Mass Change against a grounded opponent puts Dormammu at the perfect height for air dash j.L, c.L. Maybe that's what they were using against you?
JeTmAn81
Member
It depends on the situation. I was doing some tridash into j.H's with Magneto against a Dorm I was playing and he was pretty easily anti-airing me. I feel like if I was more careful with my spacing I might be able to hit up with the tip of the hitbox since that attack has a pretty good horizontal range, but that's beyond my Magneto abilities. Or maybe he would've hit me regardless, but there are definitely times when you have to choose your tridash approach very carefully.
I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure it wasn't j.L since that's much smaller than the j.H or j.S and I thought they were using swipes on me. I was under the impression that Mass Change L and M leave Dorm too far away to hit his opponent without dashing first, so maybe I was just moving towards him in time, or maybe Mass Change H makes it easier? I do know one guy was using Mass Change H on me a bunch in the corner and it made it almost impossible for me to tell which side he was going to hit me on.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
This was my H&H stuff.
Daken + 2 Luke Cages with my Hulk/Sent/Wesker team
2 Luke Cages gave me Maximum vitality. Daken heals me and decreases the amount of red life my opponent has.
I actually remember first running that team specifically for H&H.
I wonder how this set would work on a zoning team
Daken + 2 Luke Cages with my Hulk/Sent/Wesker team
2 Luke Cages gave me Maximum vitality. Daken heals me and decreases the amount of red life my opponent has.
I actually remember first running that team specifically for H&H.
I wonder how this set would work on a zoning team
Exactly. It's not the amount of armor, it's the fact that it takes 10 frames for it to come out during his s.H. And that's the quickest one, the other moves with armor take even longer to activate.
The armor on Hulk's s.H comes out sooner (I'm guessing from experience, I don't have frame data on that move) and covers way much more area. Most of the cast can duck Nem's s.H.
Was that the card combination that ruined H&H? The one that heals you super fast, so if you ever get out of pressure, you just zone for 10 seconds and you're back to full life.
I forget the actual card combinations but ability to cancel specials into other specials + all air actions possible + air dashing is the funniest looking shit. I used to troll with anchor Magneto. If I had like 2 bars and hit you with a Disruptor, shit got stupid quick. Estaka L rekka'd to Estaka M rekka'd to Estaka H and back again = ggs.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Yeah probably. I had fun though!
Karsticles
Member
ArmandoXIII on GFAQs found the best card combo. Let me see if I can find it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpgAklCo1EQ
Basically, X-Factor causes wall bounce + multiple X-Factor + MOAR DAMAGE means that your opponent can't even put you in blockstun without dying, and you can do it three times!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpgAklCo1EQ
Basically, X-Factor causes wall bounce + multiple X-Factor + MOAR DAMAGE means that your opponent can't even put you in blockstun without dying, and you can do it three times!
That's because Magneto's j.H isn't his optimal tridash move. It's like tridashing with Dormammu's j.M. The hitbox on it is just not every good for the down-forward approach. It gets used solely for the throw OS. If you use j.S Dormammu won't be able to anti-air you. If you're Gods_Beard and use j.L you'll get anti-aired all the time. ;-)
If you were using a big-ish character or if you moved back a bit after the teleport, j.H and j.S can just barely reach into full combos. Mass Change H always appears in front of you (and it's an easy air throw, I only do it out of desperation, maybe 1/100 matches, or because I messed up the Liberation input. -_-)
JeTmAn81
Member
How does j.S work better? I've always gotten the impression that the hitbox on j.S has the best vertical range (pointing down from Magneto), while j.H has better horizontal range. So do you mean Dorm can more easily be hit by j.S when descending from a higher point? It's my go to move for dashing down when I'm a bit higher, but when I'm trying to maintain my horizontal distance I've been jumping up a little lower before descending with a j.H. j.L I never even end up using unless I have some godly lockdown going because I just don't quite have the instinct for the spacing. I can do a really fast j.L, c.L in training mode no problem.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Hmm not sure how that'd do against my card combo. The guy he was facing did have extra vitality and health regen but those on were level 1 while my vitality was max and regen was at 2.
Karsticles
Member
Dormammu's anti-airs are better against frontal aerial approaches than vertical ones. That's the case with most characters. Like against Gods_Beard, who really likes to come in with j.L, I just throw Dormammu's launcher out whenever I feel like it and catch him a huge portion of the time. It's just not the way to go.
Dormammu's s.H is one of the best vertical anti-airs in the game, but it doesn't lead to anything and it has few active frames, so it's hard to use. On the other hand, c.M, s.M, and s.S all have a ton of active frames and lead to full combos. This is why I said Tron Bonne was nothing to me in Vanilla. Those square dashes all get countered by c.M. However, I can't anti-air other Dormammu players or Dante/Vergil using Helm Breaker.
I imagine that since your cards are entirely defensive, it's to your disadvantage. The X-Factor abuser can always build meter and wait for THCs and such while you do your small bit of damage. Personally I would use Hulk/Sentinel/Wesker for the team.
JeTmAn81
Member
That makes sense. These guys were catching me on reaction, which seemed unlikely unless their options were really easy to select (just one button).
Professor Beef
Banned
Gimme a few more minutes and I'll play.
Good Games Professor Beef!
1. I like when I finished a match with legion -> super scatter shot.
2. Also Spideys crawler assault beating out Mach speed was surprising! I must've timed it just right, because I know Mach speed has a lot of invincibility!.
3. I'll be damned if I didn't miss countering most of your TACs. You make me hate TACs!
4. You remind me that throwing out super scatter shot is not as safe as I mistakenly assumed it to be. You punished it with Mach speed relentlessly.
5. I thought slow's timer would at least count down if you use an assist after tagging out. Unfortunately it does not...
6. Nice finish on the last match with a four meter combo which leveled up frank and ended in Denjin Shinku Tatsumakisenpukyaku! That was flashy sir.
1. I like when I finished a match with legion -> super scatter shot.
2. Also Spideys crawler assault beating out Mach speed was surprising! I must've timed it just right, because I know Mach speed has a lot of invincibility!.
3. I'll be damned if I didn't miss countering most of your TACs. You make me hate TACs!
4. You remind me that throwing out super scatter shot is not as safe as I mistakenly assumed it to be. You punished it with Mach speed relentlessly.
5. I thought slow's timer would at least count down if you use an assist after tagging out. Unfortunately it does not...
6. Nice finish on the last match with a four meter combo which leveled up frank and ended in Denjin Shinku Tatsumakisenpukyaku! That was flashy sir.
Professor Beef
Banned
Yeah, the games that I won mainly happened when I took Strider out. At least my zoning is getting better with Joe. And you totally started Crawler Assault perfectly.
I love me some TACs. It's why I love the Joe/Frank combo. The risk is totally worth the reward with those two. It's better when Frank can call in whoever my anchor is because they help him level up even more. Arthur/Ryu with the install hypers, and Raccoon with the spring Hyper when I've got you in the corner.
SS Shot isn't safe at all near close-range against Joe. I kept wondering why you used it instead of something like Gimlet > THC someone else. Mach Speed is too invincible to risk SS Shot.
And I wouldn't even have attempted that 4 bar combo if I hadn't noticed how much health Felicia had left. Once Frank's 2nd Hyper ended and I saw you were only down to about a quarter health left, I did a quick calculation and went for it.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Sounds like he styled on you.
Professor Beef
Banned
I did try to when I almost ended a match with Shin SRK because I thought you could do another hyper afterwards. What I didn't know is that you had to do an OTG Shinku, so I ended up wasting that 4th bar.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
You don't need to do the OTG Shinku.
Professor Beef
Banned
What do you have to do, then? I wasn't in the corner, if that helps explain anything.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Anybody up to play?
My thought process was normally:
1. If they try to dash forwards and punish with normals, they'll get hit.
2. If they block, I've reset the screen and/or can DHC out into kitty helper.
This is obviously flawed logic, because anyone with a decent hyper or anything with invincibility can go right through it and hit Hawkeye as he's launching the arrows.
-So I've learned a lesson and have another bad habit to get rid of in my play.
Also I failed to cancel my block strings into something safe like poison shot and instead just derped thru to LMHS and got punished a ton... I need to work on that.
That was another good thing you did, anytime you hit my anchor character you made sure you killed them.
Good stuff Beef. I can notice that you gotten better since the last time we played.(That was maybe 3 months ago?)
Also I PMed sayah about playing our tournament match but haven't heard anything back yet. Hopefully we can play our match tomorrow sometime.
Yeah he did. Even though beef won most of the games, I felt we were pretty decently matched though.
I could play a few matches.
EDIT:
I think you may have just done the Shinku a bit too late. Probably due to lag more than anything.
racketpunch
Member
"God's Beard!"
Member
logging on
I'll play a couple before I have to go get some dinner.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Not be slow? Just tried it in training mode and it works
Professor Beef
Banned
I'll remember that the next time the situation comes up.