I know spiral swords is great, I just haven't seen tournament play that says to me, "this character is way too good and needs to be brought down a notch," unlike zero who effectively can turn an entire match into a one player game off of a single hit, which is the most boring thing imaginable. Maybe the top vergil players will get to that same point- I just haven't personally witnessed it yet.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
I know spiral swords is great, I just haven't seen tournament play that says to me, "this character is way too good and needs to be brought down a notch," unlike zero who effectively can turn an entire match into a one player game off of a single hit, which is the most boring thing imaginable. Maybe the top vergil players will get to that same point- I just haven't personally witnessed it yet.
Doesn't the other formation take two bars to use total? Why not just default to Blistering Swords and then change formation to Spiral Swords for another bar?
They could also decrease the amount of projectile durability it has, it's ridiculous.
Also it's kind of dumb that Spiral Swords costs 1 bar but Strider's Ouroboros costs 3.
Karsticles
Member
There are a lot of ways. Make it cost two bars, reduce duration, reduce damage, etc.
I think these are good possibilities, too. Blistering Swords is pretty ass compared to Spiral Swords (in terms of costing 1 bar).
I think this is a good solution, along with reducing the damage on Round Trip.
See, the one thing I don't think we should do is remove Spiral Swords loops. Those are interesting, inventive, and a big part of the character. It's reasonable to make them less effective, though.
Karsticles
Member
I was hoping to receive this response from you.
Then he'll likely never get to use Spiral Swords, because you cannot generate meter during Devil Trigger. It doesn't seem reasonable to make him spend a whole bar on Devil Trigger, and then another whole bar on Spiral Swords - why would he use Spiral Swords, then?
Karsticles
Member
Yeah and a lot of the times I use Spiral Swords with Vergil, it's to make a blockstring safe. Devil Trigger would be able to make most things safe instead in that case. Plus I'd imagine most people would rather save the meter for Lv4 instead of go for a highly scaled Spiral Swords combo if they both have to be in Devil Trigger.
What's your reasoning? I always thought spending a bar to go into a powered up state and gaining the bar back in the process of doing a combo went against the resource management element of fighting games.
Karsticles
Member
Not all install hypers are created equal. Compare Firebrand's Luminous Body and Wolverine's Berserker Charge.
This seems like a great way to fix it.
It's pretty dumb that he can walk right through some hypers right now.
Face it Tiger..
Banned
Nova does well.
Good point, I hadn't considered that.
Assuming he has plenty of meter, nobody outside of maybe Spencer, who remains a generally favorable matchup for Vergil regardless of meter.
Without meter, characters who can operate outside of the area he has more or less absolute control over do pretty well. Usually super jump height characters.
I would really like some sort of how too guide to deal with Vergil. It seems so hopeless fighting him, you are stuck in blockstun forever just looking for a Dimension Slash mixup.
I guess the solution is to snap him in at the beginning of the round and kill him before he can get any momentum.
I guess the solution is to snap him in at the beginning of the round and kill him before he can get any momentum.
Killa Sasa
Member
Nope that's a different one. I like Russell's Raccoon a lot though too, but I still think my fran's is better when he actually puts time into the game. He's been playing a looooooooot of Persona lately, and is ready for the new GG/BB too, so I don't know how clean his Raccoon is atm.
Karsticles
Member
That's just crazy talk.
Biggest tip in the world: once Vergil has you in a blockstring, hold up-back. Or, depending on your opponent's tendencies, even up-forward. It's not perfect, but it helps a lot. You starting the jump animation is a good way to know it's Rapid Slash time, and some characters jump over the slashes.
Thanks for the tip. I just really don't know when I can mount an offense or start playing the game again when Vergil has meters stocked up. He does a really good job of shutting down anyone's neutral game. That's why he's so good I guess.
SolarKnight
Member
There was one on stream this weekend? Damn it, are the archives up yet and when does he show up?
Yeah, I'd love to watch a great RR player in action.
Edit: Think I found it. http://www.twitch.tv/torontotoptiers/b/335491599 (About 22 minutes in)
Karsticles
Member
Best RR I've seen.
SolarKnight
Member
RR (Log)/Ammy (Cold Star)/Strider (Vajra)
Huh, feels like a sign telling me to give that team another chance.
Huh, feels like a sign telling me to give that team another chance.
I was looking for my Vergil patch changelist but can't find it. So I have to write it from scratch.
Vergil changes (well nerfs):
*Spiral Swords hits per sword decreased by 1 (they hit 3 times each). The durability is also decreased by 1/3rd because of this and so is it's time when blocked (chip also reduced by 1/3rd).
Reasoning: This essentially takes care of 3 problems with Spiral Swords. The chip damage from the swords, the lockdown time and the durability which allows him to parade through hypers. I haven't done the full math but at 1/3rd durability decrease more hypers should be able to beat it.
*Special moves damage value at max scaling decreased.
Reasoning: I don't have the value on Vergil's special damage scaling but it's high for sure. This essentially is what allows him to do high damage in combos which he shouldn't be doing, he is not supposed to be a TOD type character at all. Lunar Phase and Round Trip end up doing a lot of damage when they are done in loops and it adds up a lot. Toning down the scaling on specials (his normal scaling is fine, once max scaling is applied he does very little damage from his normals) would make his damage much more fair.
*Helm Breaker cannot be cancelled into st.S on block. Posterior hit box adjusted.
Reasoning: Vergil doesn't have many air options and he doesn't even have real overheads. Him having a move like Helm Breaker is fair but the problem comes in some of its properties. Its "canon" that Vergil has a faster Helm Breaker than Dante's, in fact it's his signature move as a boss (he just spams you with super fast Helm Breakers) but the fact that he can cancel it into something like his launcher and then do the HSH loop is stupid. Him making HB safe with Lunar Phase is fine because it's -3 and him cancelling it into teleports is unsafe. No need to talk about why its posterior hit box has to be adjusted, no one likes getting clipped by Vergil's trenchcoat.
*Dimension Slash hyper no longer crosses up
Reasoning: Random is random and should be removed. They should fix this for Wesker as well.
*Cr.L start up reduced by 1 frame (from 5 frame to 6 frame)
Reasoning: This move is insanely good on a character like Vergil. He can already frame trap with moves like JC and Round Trip, he doesn't even need a fast normal like that. It has as much range as Magneto's cr.M yet is as fast as his cr.L!!! The 1 frame nerf would put it the same start up as his st.L.
*Rapid Slash as an assist durability changed to same as point version
Reasoning: Probably a bug or unintended but it should be changed.
*Round Trip charge glitch removed (ditto for Viper)
Reasoning: No reasoning required, it's a clear exploit and it's too powerful. Vergil already has a very powerful lockdown game thanks to SS and Round Trip, him being able to refresh the charge time of RT to extend the lockdown and chip is too good. I don't think I need to put out the video of Padtrick chipping out a locked down 90% health Wesker to death.
*Devil Trigger invincibility on start up removed.
Reasoning: If DT isn't good enough one of the few counters to Spiral Swords is XF into command throw hyper which can be countered by Devil Triggered and making the command throw whiff. No reason why anyone should have any invincibility on a utility hyper unless it's a counter hyper like Task/Wesker hyper or if it's a LVL3 utility hyper.
*XF values reduced
*Reasoning: There actually needs to be a system wide change on how X factor and utility hypers interact because it's clearly busted now. Vergil DT + XF3 is like XFLVL5, it's completely bananas. Even after they adjust that PLUS adjusting XF2/XF3 they need to then adjust Vergil's own XF bonuses in terms of speed and damage. No freakin' reason Vergil should be + on block during Rapid Slash during XF + DT. Yeah it's a triple nerf to Vergil's anchor status but this is the only way to make it fair, even then he would still be good in that position.
*Cr.H no longer causes soft knockdown
*Reasoning: No reason why this move should have soft knockdown. Vergil can even use this for mix ups although hardly anyone uses it.
Vergil changes (well nerfs):
*Spiral Swords hits per sword decreased by 1 (they hit 3 times each). The durability is also decreased by 1/3rd because of this and so is it's time when blocked (chip also reduced by 1/3rd).
Reasoning: This essentially takes care of 3 problems with Spiral Swords. The chip damage from the swords, the lockdown time and the durability which allows him to parade through hypers. I haven't done the full math but at 1/3rd durability decrease more hypers should be able to beat it.
*Special moves damage value at max scaling decreased.
Reasoning: I don't have the value on Vergil's special damage scaling but it's high for sure. This essentially is what allows him to do high damage in combos which he shouldn't be doing, he is not supposed to be a TOD type character at all. Lunar Phase and Round Trip end up doing a lot of damage when they are done in loops and it adds up a lot. Toning down the scaling on specials (his normal scaling is fine, once max scaling is applied he does very little damage from his normals) would make his damage much more fair.
*Helm Breaker cannot be cancelled into st.S on block. Posterior hit box adjusted.
Reasoning: Vergil doesn't have many air options and he doesn't even have real overheads. Him having a move like Helm Breaker is fair but the problem comes in some of its properties. Its "canon" that Vergil has a faster Helm Breaker than Dante's, in fact it's his signature move as a boss (he just spams you with super fast Helm Breakers) but the fact that he can cancel it into something like his launcher and then do the HSH loop is stupid. Him making HB safe with Lunar Phase is fine because it's -3 and him cancelling it into teleports is unsafe. No need to talk about why its posterior hit box has to be adjusted, no one likes getting clipped by Vergil's trenchcoat.
*Dimension Slash hyper no longer crosses up
Reasoning: Random is random and should be removed. They should fix this for Wesker as well.
*Cr.L start up reduced by 1 frame (from 5 frame to 6 frame)
Reasoning: This move is insanely good on a character like Vergil. He can already frame trap with moves like JC and Round Trip, he doesn't even need a fast normal like that. It has as much range as Magneto's cr.M yet is as fast as his cr.L!!! The 1 frame nerf would put it the same start up as his st.L.
*Rapid Slash as an assist durability changed to same as point version
Reasoning: Probably a bug or unintended but it should be changed.
*Round Trip charge glitch removed (ditto for Viper)
Reasoning: No reasoning required, it's a clear exploit and it's too powerful. Vergil already has a very powerful lockdown game thanks to SS and Round Trip, him being able to refresh the charge time of RT to extend the lockdown and chip is too good. I don't think I need to put out the video of Padtrick chipping out a locked down 90% health Wesker to death.
*Devil Trigger invincibility on start up removed.
Reasoning: If DT isn't good enough one of the few counters to Spiral Swords is XF into command throw hyper which can be countered by Devil Triggered and making the command throw whiff. No reason why anyone should have any invincibility on a utility hyper unless it's a counter hyper like Task/Wesker hyper or if it's a LVL3 utility hyper.
*XF values reduced
*Reasoning: There actually needs to be a system wide change on how X factor and utility hypers interact because it's clearly busted now. Vergil DT + XF3 is like XFLVL5, it's completely bananas. Even after they adjust that PLUS adjusting XF2/XF3 they need to then adjust Vergil's own XF bonuses in terms of speed and damage. No freakin' reason Vergil should be + on block during Rapid Slash during XF + DT. Yeah it's a triple nerf to Vergil's anchor status but this is the only way to make it fair, even then he would still be good in that position.
*Cr.H no longer causes soft knockdown
*Reasoning: No reason why this move should have soft knockdown. Vergil can even use this for mix ups although hardly anyone uses it.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Whenever I pick Vergil in training mode I get so bored that I inevitably put on lvl 3 x-factor, go into devil trigger and spiral swords and just record jump, hold down and mash H then swap to Dante and pretend I'm playing DMC3.
You should mix it up with some Teleport H like he ACTUALLY does in the game.
It's 20%, which is pretty nutty.
I don't understand the thought process behind the damage scaling values in this game.
Karsticles
Member
Good changes overall, but I'm cool with c.H causing a soft knockdown. I don't think it's a big deal. It's not even necessary for sword loops.
Helm Breaker to s.S can stay because if someone pushblocks Helm Breaker and you cancel to s.S, Vergil just died - seems fairly risky.
I think c.L being 5 frames is fine. He can't cancel normals into specials, so there's some balance there, y'know?
I also want Round Trip to deal less damage. Far too much chip on that move.
Helm Breaker to s.S can stay because if someone pushblocks Helm Breaker and you cancel to s.S, Vergil just died - seems fairly risky.
I think c.L being 5 frames is fine. He can't cancel normals into specials, so there's some balance there, y'know?
I also want Round Trip to deal less damage. Far too much chip on that move.
That's what it feels like.
For most characters that would be "fair". For characters like Vergil who uses a ton of specials in his combos it adds up a lot. It should be 1.5 IMO. 1.0 might be too low.
So why is st.L 6 frames then? It's too fast for a normal at that range. It's not like cr.L can be punished reliably.
I forgot another change, st.H horizontal hit box reduced to match the visual animation. Just a small adjustment.
Oh and someone asked about Vergil "counters".
I think the only 2 characters who are the closest are Spencer and RR. Neither are bad match ups for Vergil but he has to be extra careful around those two. Spencer is obvious, every time Vergil turns on SS outside of Spencer being in block stun is a free Bionic Arm. For RR a lot of short characters give Vergil problems. One of them is that short characters can duck under most beams and if Vergil isn't careful he can get punished while doing his mix ups. This also applies for Round Trip strings. RR can also stall Spiral Swords by laying trap especially the hyper (Vergil can't get in with SS if there is a Spring trap with RR standing on it). Plus RR is an up close character so it's not like he is going to be playing footsies with Vergil. RR also has other gimmicks against Vergil.
Other characters that can do well are Viper (FA can nullify many mix ups, EX Seismo blows up his block strings and TK cancel can blow up Helm Breaker/normals), Wolverine/Jill (Jill can SS Helm Breaker and untight block strings, both can pressure Vergil up close), Zero (Vergil needs Vajra and meter to deal with Zero SJ pressure), V Joe (V Dodge to blow up normals, triple jumps to stall time on SS) and Chun Li (EX SBK can blow up mix ups/cross ups, the DP can beat out Vergil's block strings because it's 2 frame, triple jump into DP can stall time against SS).
"God's Beard!"
Member
Uhh, mashing H automatically Teleport Hs. It's one of those things that people who play Vergil know.
Uhh, mashing H automatically Teleport Hs. It's one of those things that people who play Vergil know.
scytheavatar
Member
Why do any of you guys want a patch anyway? MvC4 as a launch title for the XBox720/PS4 would make a lot more sense for Capcom and Marvel. 20 new characters, new mechanics to replace the crude TAC and X Factor, a proper interface and a new swag costume for Magneto. Isn't that much better than patching UMvC3?
Thoughts on the following team(I know it's good just want input):
Magneto (Disruptor)
Storm (Whirlwind)
Doom (Missiles)
Seems the best spot for everyone right? Storm and Magneto both benefit from Missiles and team seems to have decent synergy.
Doom isn't that good of an anchor but that can always be worked around.
Magneto (Disruptor)
Storm (Whirlwind)
Doom (Missiles)
Seems the best spot for everyone right? Storm and Magneto both benefit from Missiles and team seems to have decent synergy.
Doom isn't that good of an anchor but that can always be worked around.
That would be great only then they have to start with a new roster and many cuts will happen.
Karsticles
Member
Why do you think it's an "or" situation we're talking about?
It's fine.
scytheavatar
Member
Storm with missiles isn't that good, because the missiles scale combo greatly and she's going to do terrible damage in this setup. Your team is going to have a nightmare coming back when Magneto goes down early.
that would be pretty bad for the FGC. tourney organizers and players having to buy new systems would slow things down a lot.
What about Storm with Plasma Beam?
Karsticles
Member
My advice? Ignore scytheavatar's advice.