The Mango Sentinel
Member
So are we talking about the best with assists? Cause yeah it has to be Zero, but without assists I would have to say Vergil. 1 vs 1 I am never worried about Zero....granted there's rarely a situation when that happens.
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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!
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The Mango Sentinel
Member
I think Wright should have a double jump. And that whole bad evidence thing needs to go. At least Dark Phoenix is dying after she loses x-factor and I think turnabout is better than lvl 5 Frank, but that could just be because of match experience. I've fought Frank numerous times so he's not nearly as hard to deal with as that one amazing Wright that comes out of nowhere once in a blue moon. And I wish they wouldn't have nerfed his assist. Yeah it was powerful as fuck but you had to work for it. Too powerful actually....I dunno
It's really too bad it's a 3vs3 game, isn't it? If it wasn't, everything you typed out would matter. Alas, it doesn't and you wasted your time typing all that. If assists didn't matter and the meta hadn't developed as you said, I'd agree with you.
But assists do matter and the meta has developed. So, why don't you re-read what I was saying about tournaments and explain why Zero WILL start dominating tournaments, since that'd be the opposite of my argument.
You're also ignoring the main points and the fact that (I at least) have said numerous times Zero is incredible. He's an awesome character, does incredible damage, and can devastate teams.....BUT...(thanks Frantic for the segue).
Frantic said:His health is only an issue in certain matchups where chip can be a deciding factor, otherwise it's not really any different than Magneto or Vergil's health. Zero tends to have more options in those matchups, anyways, imo.
Speed is debateable. Zero's movement options are fast and great if you've got the execution for it, and his backwards wavedash is godlike. I think Zero's speed comes down to whether or not you can manage it.
Then again, maybe I'm just jealous of 5 frame jabs and ToDs.
Zero's movement is not fast, not in going forward anyways. He can't wavedash, he runs. He "teleports" which are all subject to being hit. They go a set distance and they don't go far enough to go full screen (enter Gods Beard going SHOCKWAVE here). In fact the slow movement in the air is one reason why Magneto's love to shockwave him.
The two examples you picked are either FAR faster than he is (Magneto), especially in the air, or can teleport (Vergil) and thus have far superior mobility on screen.
As a result, you see a lot of current Zero's hang back and poke with Buster and use their assists, fishing for hits essentially. It's not dumb, but it's due to his speed and difficulty moving quickly forward in the air against teams that can fill the screen with hitboxes. Zero's ability to convert stray hits into ToD's still makes him incredibly dangerous in this situation...the problem then becomes if he is trading attacks and both sides are getting chipped, he can't take nearly as much as others he'd be trading with. That's why his HP matters more here than for Vergil and Magneto. They don't play keepaway in a similar role as Zero tends to.
Before we get carried away, though, and again, since for some reason people ignore it, he's definitely a top 5 character. My only point was in a tournament setting you're not going to see a Zero led team win very often once you get near the end.
Comparing one versus one is really pointless in this game. FUN, yes
. It's fun to theorycraft. It's irrelevant, though, as Vergil and Zero generally come in different places on the team.If you want to spark a discussion, that would be why if Zero is the best point character do so many not use him?
Professor Beef
Banned
You don't have to jump through several hoops to get those particular invincible assists, though.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Comparing one versus one is really pointless in this game. FUN, yes
If you want to spark a discussion, that would be why if Zero is the best point character do so many not use him?
Yes exactly. Though I think 1 vs 1 is important since it's not uncommon for it to come down to both of your anchors. But in the case of Zero vs Vergil....yeah it's not happening often. I also think people would just rather use an easier character that can kill just as easy. Magneto, Spencer, etc.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Because he's not the best point character.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Who is? It seems like everyone has a different answer.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Magneto. The highest flexibility and the fewest bad matchups make him a better character. I really think he has the smallest openings when Zero has flashing lights that go off if you have access to the punishes.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Full Theory Mode I'd put Strider as the best character in the game. But until then it's Magneto.
biosnake20
Member
Yipes and Matrix in the lab creating a one bar combo with dante dealing 807k assisted by magneto and wesker.Uses the estaka assist for double volcano.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I love Wesker/Magneto teams. I don't ever want to use anything else, just drop somebody in.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Beardo I played a REALLY good point Strider today. Dude would not piss off.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Point Strider is a god damn maniac.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
It was Strider/Magneto/Akuma with Strider and Tatsu doing the heavy lifting.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Wesker/Magneto is so goddamn annoying sometimes. Well Wesker in general is annoying. Granted he's become MUCH easier to deal with as the game has evolved, but he's still a shithead. He's like playing Ken in 3rd Strike. You're showing everyone your poker hand, but that hand is a fucking flush. Everyone knows exactly what you're gonna be doing but fuck he's still so good at it.
biosnake20
Member
Some really interesting stuff. Love that devil trigger flight tech. There's some real potential there. Great video as always Frantic.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Point Strider is so fun to play. I only play as him point on one team though. MvC2 team Clockwork (and yes with molecular shield). It usually just consists of reset after reset after reset. And it's great if I don't lose Strider and they're down to their anchor I will use ourobouros. It's so fun to use that while you still have assists as well.
WesternHeretic
Member
All this video is telling me is that Zero/Dante/Vergil is the new way to go.
Shameless... I know.
Its a well known fact that God's Beard is extremely biased towards Magneto so you can automatically discount his opinion on the character in tiers. Real Magneto players don't even put him that high.
Magneto loses to fucking Taskmaster.
I would make a giant post about how Zero is the best point character (in most situations) but I am not gonna. Note that I do not contest his weaknesses, every top tier has them. Magneto is the character with the least weaknesses but his strengths aren't as oppressive as some other characters like Vergil, Zer, Viper. He does not have the scare factor that a Zero team brings where one touch equals 70%+ chance of losing the game.
Magneto loses to fucking Taskmaster.
I would make a giant post about how Zero is the best point character (in most situations) but I am not gonna. Note that I do not contest his weaknesses, every top tier has them. Magneto is the character with the least weaknesses but his strengths aren't as oppressive as some other characters like Vergil, Zer, Viper. He does not have the scare factor that a Zero team brings where one touch equals 70%+ chance of losing the game.
WesternHeretic
Member
Zero is definitely the best character in the game...not counting x-factor.
However I still say Morrigan is the scariest with an assist. Just off the fact in the Justin vs Chris G match at SCR.
Justin had Chris Morrigan 3 times in the first 3 matches and ended up down 1-2 going into the 4th match. You drop one combo against her and you lose all momentum. You drop one combo against Zero you don't really lose momentum unless he hits you and sends you into the corner. You can also chip him out (in most situations) if you drop a combo against him.
However I still say Morrigan is the scariest with an assist. Just off the fact in the Justin vs Chris G match at SCR.
Justin had Chris Morrigan 3 times in the first 3 matches and ended up down 1-2 going into the 4th match. You drop one combo against her and you lose all momentum. You drop one combo against Zero you don't really lose momentum unless he hits you and sends you into the corner. You can also chip him out (in most situations) if you drop a combo against him.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
He didn't drop one combo he dropped several. He probably could have won the set if he didn't drop everything.
Professor Beef
Banned
I need help deciding the point structure I want to use for the upcoming Marvel Ranbats that I am constructing. In Street Fighter it was simple because of the basic round structure, but because Marvel is so fucking wacky it's much more difficult.
For comparison's sake, here's how it was layed out for the SF GAFbats:
For comparison's sake, here's how it was layed out for the SF GAFbats:
I'm drawing a blank on how to set up the scoring. But I'm also in no rush because I'm not trying to start this immediately after the tournament is done.
WesternHeretic
Member
That's the weirdest system I have ever seen.
What happened to the old fashion
10
7
5
4
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Leave it as is but without the half points
Professor Beef
Banned
Don't ask me, I'm not the one who came up with it. But it worked, which is why it was used twice. But this is also Marvel aka "we want 3/5 pls"
You think that'd work?
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Replace the word round with game.
With any nonzoning team, you have to ask yourself How many honest hits do I need to earn to win the game? Thats why Zero is so good he only needs one, and he can get that one safely and reliably, and then its all down to execution and if you can complete the QTE and win the game. He hasnt done better in majors because none of the best players use him. Thats it. At least you can put Sentinel second to escape the incoming and be allowed to play the game again (Magnus/Sent/Doom or something would probably be good).
WesternHeretic
Member
Yea but it hasn't been like the best player haven't tried him.
Chris G has tried Zero.
Marlin has tried Zero.
Justin has tried Zero.
Viscant tried Zero.
Yipes, Champ haven't... but that's about it.
Chris G has tried Zero.
Marlin has tried Zero.
Justin has tried Zero.
Viscant tried Zero.
Yipes, Champ haven't... but that's about it.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
I think I'm one of the only assholes still rocking Sentinel on anchor......on two teams!! I can't believe I don't get beat more often than I do.
I'd just like to share this. I went to a tournament a while back and got the shit booed out of me. I totally wasn't expecting it, but it was one of the greatest nights of my gaming life. I loved playing the bad guy role. I totally embraced it and kept egging on the crowd. No one wanted to see me win. I took 2nd, but man was the crowd cheering once I finally lost.
I think that's more because they didn't like his playstyle, rather than them thinking they couldn't win with the character.
I hate realizing that input nullification had those kinds of applications after playing with it for a grand total of 30 seconds one time and going "eh".
Those guard break setups are so fucking good. I'm also really really shocked that for as much as I actually like setting up mixups from a grab, I've never done that empty cancel Weasel Shot thing from the beginning of the video before. That shit is so stolen. :lol :lol
I have one mixup I want to contribute if you're doing a series like this or for the big video:
Reverb Shock - Fireworks - Dash - Plink Dash + Assist of choice - Dash (this one should be the one that happens right as they air tech)
If you want to get more fancy, you could do an Air Trick and really fuck with their orientation some.
That's not even the input nullification thing. I haven't really messed with what is possible with input nullification, but I'm sure there could be some really late j.Hs int here.
I do like cr.H into Fly+Vortex and j.H into Vortex. Nice and invulnerable while ignoring pushblock.
I was surprised at how easy the guard break was when doing it. I had issues with the Vajra one, but that's because I'm clumsy and would get Jet Stream instead of a back throw. Otherwise, timing the throw isn't too bad.
Anything related to Weasel Shot is so good.
I've got a fair share of mixups post Fireworks. I'll definitely make a video of them sometime in the future.
Imo, Zero also loses to Taskmaster
.Agreed with you here, Bomb. Magneto never scares me as much as some others.
I still think you're too biased towards Zero and are letting his potential overpower the reality and would ask you play him for awhile and see what you think, though. AGAIN, though, not saying he's not a top 5 character.....just the few flaws he does have damage him for tournaments.
Also all true. I hate when I have a crazy fight and end up with Zero on XF.
Zissou said:
The bolded part is not true, top players have tried him.
Poltergust
Member
When it comes to buffing Wright, there needs to be more focus on his modes outside of Turnabout Mode. Outside of one thing, Turnabout Mode is perfectly fine as it is, even with the timer. Here are my ideas for buffing Wright without completely breaking him:
-Cannot be grabbed through Maya's shield. Command grabs are Wright's worst nightmare right now because they prevent him from getting evidence safely. Wright vs. Super-Skrull is one of the dumbest match-ups I've ever witnessed.
-Maya's shield either can absorb more damage or scales attacks properly. It's useless against most zoning characters since projectiles do so much raw damage.
-No bad evidence, or at least make it far less frequent. Furthermore, Wright can't pick up meat unless he has some red health to recover. I don't understand why he even has this considering no piece of evidence is useless in his games...
-Replace Paperwork High with Maya. No one uses Paperwork High over Paperwork Low anyways.
-Evidence projectiles and Paperwork become air-OK; Wright stalls in the air while presenting evidence, but falls normally during Paperwork. This will give Wright at least some air options besides his normals and Hold It/Objection. Plus, it makes him safer and more able to capable of using his projectiles against other zoners.
-c.H in Turnabout Mode hits low. I wouldn't mind his c.H in Trial Mode also hitting low, but Turnabout Mode is the priority here since he's more aggressive in that mode.
-Increased horizontal range on all of his normals.
There, a few buffs that don't make him overpowered, but makes his playstyle more effective and worthwhile.
Professor Beef
Banned
In the 2nd game, there are.
Poltergust
Member
Which ones? Unfortunately, I had my DS games stolen from me about 2 years ago, so I haven't played an Ace Attorney game in a while. Still, I don't remember any piece of evidence not being used at least once, in or out of court.
Professor Beef
Banned
Last case in the 2nd game (major spoilers):
When Franziska brings in the evidence she obtained from Shelly.
Poltergust
Member
That... doesn't really count, though. Even if Wright didn't use those pieces of evidence, they still gave out important pieces of information about the case. I mean, it's not like you have to present the autopsy report or floor plans for each case, right?
The thing I'm going for is that Wright can make something as seemingly unimportant as a
metal detector
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Yes I was gonna mention that and forgot. He should definitely be able to use evidence in the air. I dunno if it should just be once or three times though. There's already enough running away in this game. I also thought about the cr H in turnabout hitting low and neglected to mention it. I just think that might be way too good considering the massive amount of damage he gets off of landing one of those hits.
Poltergust
Member
Yeah, I was actually gonna bold that since I believe it would be the most important buff out of all the ones I've listed. I just don't know why Capcom didn't give him any air-OK specials. I mean, what exactly is preventing Wright from using evidence in the air? Even Chris can use his guns in the air. As far as I know, Wright is the only projectile-based character who can't use his projectiles in the air. =/
Also, considering Wright has no good lows in Turnabout Mode, making c.H in Turnabout Mode hit low would give him a massive boost in his offensive capabilities. As it is right now, there is absolutely no reason to block low when fighting him. That needs to change.
Top players have messed around with him in training mode/casuals, but can you really count that? Most of the top players have experimented in the same way with practically every character in the game. PR Rog, Champ, Yipes, Wong, and ChrisG are almost certainly the best five players, and I've never seen any of them seriously attempt to learn the character or play him in a major. If anybody knows something I don't, link me to some of their zero matches, but as far as I know, they don't exist.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
I don't play Wright or anything but can't he still use his other two normals during turnabout? You were saying increasing his horizontal range on his normals. Perhaps that would make his crouching normals a lot more threatening during turnabout. Can he currently magic series into H during turnabout? Or maybe you could make all of his normals jump cancelable during turnabout? I think that would be pretty damn awesome. I just REALLY hate the idea of him having such a long rang low.
Have item grabbing be able to be cancelled into item throwing. However, you can only cancel items you already have and the item that you're grabbing doesn't appear in inventory until the end of the animation. Have L+S be a high arcing short range toss, M+S be a medium range medium toss, and H + S be a long range low arc toss (if you're on P1 side, P2 side would be reversed).
Balance this out by giving making turnabout timer-based or lengthen the item grabbing animation.
This will buff his zoning, make item grabbing a little bit safer, and add to the item grabbing mechanics.
Balance this out by giving making turnabout timer-based or lengthen the item grabbing animation.
This will buff his zoning, make item grabbing a little bit safer, and add to the item grabbing mechanics.
Poltergust
Member
His only normal in Turnabout Mode that hits low is his pitifully ranged c.L. Good luck landing that against opponents who know what they're doing. His only reliable means of landing a combo in Turnabout Mode is to use his unblockable, which is easier said than done.
Also, doing a ground magic series into an H move is not a good idea in Turnabout Mode since you'd have to wait for your opponent to come down before going into an Objection loop, making his extended Turnabout Mode combos impossible to perform due to lower hitstun. He needs to launch his opponent as soon as possible.
I don't see what's wrong with giving him a low like that since A) he has no other good low and needs to quickly land a hit during the limited time he has the mode activated, B) he has to work to get to Turnabout Mode and deserves an easy way to open up opponents since his offensive capabilities in his other two modes are sub-par, and C) lots of other characters have lows with tons of range, like Ghost Rider's c.H or the many characters that have slide attacks.
Um, the actual evidence gathering is fine. He's even plus on block when he throws away bad evidence.
I don't see how this would buff his zoning either, since who zones with throwing away evidence? They have no durability whatsoever and do low damage.
I also don't understand what you mean by making Turnabout Mode timer-based, because it already is. It lasts for 20 seconds, then Wright is back to Investigation Mode with no evidence.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Ghost Rider's cr H isn't going to lead to death though, but I know what you mean and I understand cause Wright needs help. I'm just still salty over getting worked by a couple of Wright players recently. I suppose if I knew the matchup then most of that shit wouldn't have been a problem, which is one of the only advantages Wright has at the moment. And I'm sure he'll keep that advantage cause I doubt anyone is gonna pick him up unless he gets seriously buffed. And I guess I'll cave to the cr H in turnabout........ugh.....if that ever happens and it ends up being OP I'm gonna regret my words.
But since we're talking about buffs we'd like to characters I would certainly like Chris to hit people low during his prone shot. I would say it would be nice to be able to cancel out of prone position with a special but I think that would be way too good. I'd like to be able to shoot his guns straight while in the air. Maybe combine the input with S while you're in the air and the shot would go straight. FOR THE LOVE OF FUCKING GOD PLEASE HAVE THE FLAMETHROWER HIT CROUCHING FRANK WEST. I don't even care about other characters, just Frank would be nice. And one last thing would be to have the sweep combination be invincible until he puts away the baton. Out of all that, the last two are what I'd love the most.
Eh i still think u need Jam Session to maximizie Zero.
TBH i feel the best Zero team is simply Zero/Dante/Mag instead of ZMC. But its just my humble opinion