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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!

ShadyK loves him some high execution broken stuff, and hates when low execution bops him, basically.

I hate Haggar a lot, but I wouldn't nerf him in a theoretical change list. I'd probably buff him, since I know as a character he's not that great even though I do get bopped by him. Although I do wish the whole game of chicken that Haggar, Hulk and Cap have going for them was removed. Just results in letting them get away with dumb shit.
The chicken stuff usually has answers, though. The only one I hate is Hulk, but it's entirely because of how throw techs work in this game. I hate teching 3-4 Hulk ground throws and then getting bopped by s.H. One tech, and put me at about half a character length away from my opponent.

I've never had a problem with Haggar. Players almost always get nervous after the Double Lariat and do into Rapid Fist. One good thing to do is to go from a crouching block stance to a standing block stance. Haggar players are just waiting for some animation to play for them to trigger the hyper. Shifting up and down can mess with their heads and bait the hyper. The only change I would make to Haggar is giving him some kind of pipe/barrel throw so he has a chance on anchor. Either a pipe that is tossed out quickly and wall bounces when it hits, or a barrel that is thrown out slowly and rolls slowly, but has medium durability and does not interact with projectiles (like Jamming Bomb).

Captain America pisses me off.
 

Dahbomb

Member
The chicken game is all they have in a lot of situations .It's a "mix up" that is heavily against their favor. Hulk does Charge into Crush... you block both he's eats a full combo. You block the Charge and you get hit by the Crush, unless he burns XF or additional meter it's not a character death.

These characters excel at punishing mistakes and they all said that as the game evolves and players get better these characters become worse and worse. Although the main problem was how would their damage stack up in their new system change where damage was universally a bit lower. If they still get TODs while other characters have to do reset then these characters are going to be better of when the tops are nerfed.

The whole execution thing is a major slippery slope and really raised a bunch of questions. Do you nerf Viper even though she is hard to play and takes execution? I mean that was the major reason why she got buffed in the first place going into Ultimate. It's pretty obvious in other games that execution isn't a problem, character toolset is. There is no way that Viper should have those free unblockables and EX Seismo which does everything for her. Morrigan is the same way.. too much slippery slope here. The counter argument is that once you get down the execution/muscle memory, just like AE Viper you use minimal brain smarts because all you have to do is execute your game plan in a flow chart manner. That was the counter example FChamp used against ShadyK defending Zero.

I mean really how much intelligence is a Viper/Zero player using when they have you in the corner and they are doing unblockables or Lightning mix ups into Lightning Loops? They play the neutral game which is fine for both for the most part but then you get hit by a derp EX Seismo or a derp full screen Lightning into TOD or get air thrown by Viper's ridiculous vertical throw range and then you lose 3 characters. At some point execution shouldn't be a factor in deciding these changes because execution is something that can be overcome.
 
They're probably going to nerf the shit out of Morrigan because they're salty. "SHE'S TOO GOOD DAWG, CHRIS IS A SCRUB!" Then they're going to leave magneto the same and buff dormammu.
 

Dahbomb

Member
They're probably going to nerf the shit out of Morrigan because they're salty. "SHE'S TOO GOOD DAWG, CHRIS IS A SCRUB!" Then they're going to leave magneto the same and buff dormammu.
Yea no way Magneto or Dormammu will be getting any substantial nerfs from FGTV... FChamp actually wants Vanilla Flame Carpet back... LOL! Thank god Magus was there to put him in his place. I want to see if ShadyK will defend Morrigan using his same arguments that he presented yesterday because he has said time and time again that she is not easy to play. Also I would like to add that ShadyK's Morrigan is now pretty damn good and can easily zone out most average players hell even Taekua lost like 10-4 against him.

Magneto players think Magneto is the most honest and skillful character in the game.
 

Frantic

Member
I just hate the whole idea of gambling everything on whether it hits or not. It's just dumb. Make the characters better so they don't need those sorts of things or something.

Magneto players think Magneto is the most honest and skillful character in the game.
And they're all full of shit.

Most honest character is like... Iron Fist or something. Skillful? N/A.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I mean it's no real different from a quarterback going for a Hail Mary pass for the Touchdown. It could get intercepted, knocked down or he could complete the pass for the win. There is nothing wrong with hail mary strats especially when there is a clearly defined risk/reward pattern. A Haggar, Hulk, Cap doesn't have to go for it and indeed the solid players don't go for it that often... it's just a trick up their sleeve. No different from Skrull going for Meteor Smashes or command grabs.

Someone link based Viscant these "balance changes" so we can get some input and he can make fun of this whole situation.
 

Solune

Member
If you upload, I will watch it. Especially if you commentated during it, that would make it really interesting to me.

It's mostly me yelling "that was cheap" or "OH NO it's OVER" :lol but yah im converting the files now. Will be up later tonight or something depending on the upload speed
 

Dahbomb

Member
Just emailed Viscant on this whole FGTV thing. It was a long email that only Viscant will truly appreciate.

RayRay discovered that Magneto can airdash after air Disruptor's recovery. FAIR AND BALANCED.
Explain?
He's probably already seen them. I just want him to release a new team tier list already. It's been months since his last one.
Didn't he release a shell list not too long ago?
 

Frantic

Member
There's a certain spot during Air Disruptor's recovery that you can airdash cancel it, preventing Magneto from just falling straight to the ground, completely vulnerable. You can just mash airdash and it'll come out as he's recovering.

I assume the applications would be to snipe someone in the air, then airdash down forward with a Magnetic Blast to approach.
 

Dahbomb

Member
He listed them on twitter. Off memory these were the ones he listed:

Zero/Dante
Dante/Strider
Morrigan/Doom
Vergil/Strider
Vergil/Doom
Magneto/Doom
Doom/Ammy
 

Azn_Boy

Neo Member
RayRay discovered that Magneto can airdash after air Disruptor's recovery. FAIR AND BALANCED.

RayRay didn't discover that. Someone from SRK who lives on the west coast found out recently and tweeted to RayRay about it.

sxiScNl.png
 

Dahbomb

Member
Can you do this with Iron Man? Not that it would make a difference but it might be applicable to other characters. Storm being able to air dash out of Lightning Sphere would make the move usable.
 
It's kind of garbage, though. You have to be pretty high to dash out of EMD because he drops a lot before it's possible, and you can't do it after hitting buttons. On top of that, you can't combo with it because the enemy will always hit the ground first. There might be some shenanigans with assists or DHCs or something, but as it is it's not amazing.

You can super jump with mag blast then EMD people jumping up then dash out and do another EMD. So at best right now you get a slight boost to his zoning game.
 

Marz

Member
Storm, Iron Fist, Sentinel, Firebrand, Akuma, or Chun-li?

Lol. I'd be cool with Storm getting a major buff if Magneto got nerfed.

I kinda want the Marvel side to get buffs in general though, Capcom side has most of the really good point/anchor stuff IMO while most of the Marvel side are good at support and not much else...besides like Mags,Nova,Wolvie,Dorm to an extent.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Marvel side is the more balanced side. Their best character is still not as cheap as some of the Capcom ones. Marvel side has Phoenix anchor and that's enough. If you made a team of just Marvel characters the best you could come up with would be FChamp's team. Probably the cheapest thing from the Marvel side is Hidden Missiles. They do have pretty much all of the best projectile assists in the game.

Capcom side has two unblockable bull shit characters (Viper, Firebrand), two bullshit anchors (Vergil, Strider), 6 top assists (Dante, Ammy, Akuma, Strider, Haggar, Shopping Cart), the best wave dash characters, the best sword normal characters and finally they got Zero, Frank West, Spencer and Morrigan for change. They only lack in flyers.

Capcom made sure their side of the roster was competitive this time around. Both have an equal number of bad characters.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Apologyman has incorporated new tech to his team.

Kill character, hard tag to Skrull, use air Inferno on meaty, DHC into Frank Servbot hyper for guaranteed guard break.

If they get hit by Inferno he can do Tools of Survival and get a combo that way. Basically first hit plus one mix up equals game won.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Wow Viscant replied back with a thoroughly detailed e mail on balance changes on a few characters. He said he was 2/3rd done with his newest blog (talking about ChrisG's team) so I am e mailing him asking him if I can post the contents of the e mail here.

Man Viscant is demanding Frank West nerfs. :(
 

Dahbomb

Member
Viscant's Character Balance Suggestions:
Working on a new post for the blog.  I was supposed to have Morrigan/Vergil/Doom up 2 or 3 weeks ago but I've been half sick, half lazy.  Probably going up this Tuesday. Overall balancing the game is an exercise in opinion more than anything.  

Nerfing characters like Zero and Morrigan would be really tricky.  I think Zero needs a nerf but completely taking LL away from him isn't the answer.  Zero/Doom can easily break 1M off a pizza cutter or assist without LL; the basic BnB I do on the Zero/Doom/Phoenix team does 650k+ without a super.  That's the problem right there.  Zero is supposed to be a low damage character but even if you took LL away from him he could still easily ToD relevant characters off common openings (stray buster, low B, pizza cutter, etc).  Probably the best way to balance Zero would be to change his damage scaling.  IIRC his minimum scaling on specials is 30% and normals is 20%.  If you cut that in half (for example Wesker's minimum is 10% on specials and has no minimum on normals) his damage becomes more reasonable and he doesn't ToD everyone in a meter positive way.  

Nerfing Morrigan seems easier.  Her fireballs have 5 durability, each one does 25,500 on chip, astral vision is 590 frames, she builds meter during astral and shell kick is Haggar pipe that's harder to air throw with a 5f startup.  If you take 2 of those away (any 2) she becomes more reasonable.  Personally I'd take meter gain away during astral and nerf shell kick.  Changing astral means she's no longer a point character and you have to battery for her.  The reason Morrigan is so dominant is because she controls meter so well even as a point character.  Everyone has a Morrigan counter but if it requires more than 2 meters to do I basically stop listening; you'll basically never have 3 meters against her just because of how the game plays out.  If astral no longer builds meter then she's fair at the start of the round and you'd actually have to make a tough choice about how to use her.  It's important not to overnerf her because other things that she benefits from like TAC infinites/TAC glitches would be the first things to go in any balance patch and low damage characters benefit from TAC disproportionately.  As is her damage on any given hit is 400k+(0.66 x remainder) which puts her damage just too high.

Viper doesn't need a huge nerf either, I think she's reasonable outside of EX seismo.  Just make that somewhat more reasonable and she's basically fine.  

Other stuff I'd change involve Vergil swords.  Spiral swords should be a level 2 with free switches to blistering or crown.  A big part of what makes Vergil overpowered is that he's a walking DHC glitch.  Low damage characters even as far down as Strider can get big damage off a DHC into Vergil.  Between that and taking RT glitch away he's fine.

There's no easy answer to nerfing missiles.  Doom as a point character is decent and his value is in TAC infinite and assist so changing foot dive basically returns him to vanilla status where he was only OK.  I'd leave foot dive in and just overhaul how missiles work with half of them "getting lost" after he gets hit.  I'd change Frank around.  The character needs a serious nerf.  Level 4 Frank is either too strong or too easy to get to.  1 hit with Nova/Skrull/Vergil or 1 TAC basically guarantees you a monster character without many natural enemies.  Either increase the EXP to get to 4 up to 100 or something or make paddlesaws different.  Proper paddlesaw use turns about 35 out of 50 characters into completely free wins including some top tier characters.  Something's gotta go.

Other characters only need minor things.  Wesker needs rhino charge back but shouldn't be overbuffed.  He loses to missiles and the engine as much as anything, he's basically the canary in the coal mine for seeing how strong zoning is.  Spencer is fine as is even if I hate the character.  Dante and Strider are dominant assists and strong characters but don't need anything 1 way or the other.  Keeping Strider damage low is good; if he did more damage he'd be Phoenix except with a dominant assist and nobody wants that.  Magneto's mostly fine.  Removing TAC infinites is an indirect nerf.  If anything I'd nerf magnetic blast a little bit by making it not +10000000000 on block.  Nothing major though, he's another canary in the coal mine character who should mostly have the game change around him.

Characters need to drop in slightly higher. Task/Skrull and Firebrand/Skrull stuff shouldn't be in the game.  Having characters coming in a little higher would give more characters the ability to come in like Phoenix where because of her size Skrull can't get her every time.  Characters at least deserve some kind of option to not be completely wiped out on incoming.  It would indirectly nerf Viper a little also which is good. Other characters just need small things. Arthur needs gold armor to not be a "please kill me" debuff.  He's a dominant anchor character with a decent assist, he could get out of control real fast.  She Hulk needs her slide back. Tron needs jump H back.Storm needs her zoning tools improved, with lightning sphere and vertical typhoons needing a speedup. Sentinel needs higher health and a faster fly.  X-23 needs dirt nap to advance scaling much further than 1 hit. Nova needs his air throw range reduced and his low M sped up. Joe needs to have red boomerangs go away faster.  Give him something better in return like a better slide, but the US is lucky that their best Joe player doesn't practice this game because that character is pretty dumb. Other than that I don't know enough about other characters to know what they need or I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other. 
 

Dahbomb

Member
I said not too long ago that Frank with Jam Session is the best character in the game. But he's an impossible character to balance. If they make getting LVL4 harder then they need to improve Frank from 1-3 especially lvl1.

Viscant is basically nerfing all the "1 player game" stuff. A shit ton of current set ups would not work if characters get in at a higher height which is a smart change without individually nerfing unblockables. Surprised to see 80k not mentioned, Viscant has always gone on a tirade with that character. Viper got the two nerfs I wanted for her (unblockable and EX Seismo) plus she should have her scaling adjusted but not halved like he suggested for Zero.

Vergil lvl2 Spiral Swords BUT free BS/SS formation is interesting but it doesn't address IMO the main problem with the character which is Dark Vergil. This nerf would essentially make him almost exclusively an anchor character. I guess Viscant is fine with his role as that but I personally don't like it.

I am also with him on Morrigan although instead of Shell Kick I would just lower the chip damage on Soul Fists just a bit. System changes would already nerf her as it is.
 
All good changes except for the Shell Kick nerf. The pipe analogy for Morrigan isn't too bad, but ask what Haggar would have without the pipe: nothing. Morrigan has ONE way to approach, and she needs a very high priority normal to make it reasonable. Anti-airing Morrigan should not be easy. I'm cool with Astral Vision no longer generating meter, I never liked the hyper anyway. ;-) I think that one nerf would make her fine, so long as Soul Drain still steals meter during Astral Vision.

A better slide wouldn't help Joe at all.
I never block low against Joe - a better slide makes me think twice.
 
If you nerf missiles you shouldn't have to nerf astral. I agree with nerfing shell kick though.
It's not a bad idea to nerf Astal Vision meter gain simply because a 1-player game is bad game design, and Astral Vision, even against characters who can chill in the air to avoid all the pewpewpew, are still just waiting to play. Cutting that time down by removing meter gain during it is a good idea. However, if it no longer gains meter, it should also have Devil Trigger-ish startup and recovery time.
 
It's not a bad idea to nerf Astal Vision meter gain simply because a 1-player game is bad game design, and Astral Vision, even against characters who can chill in the air to avoid all the pewpewpew, are still just waiting to play. Cutting that time down by removing meter gain during it is a good idea. However, if it no longer gains meter, it should also have Devil Trigger-ish startup and recovery time.

I'd be fine with this if shell kick stays the same. Hey Dahbomb did viscant say if he would be doing a new team tier list soon?
 
I tried the FotF loop. Can't seem to do it. Once I take the opponent in the air, that's where it ends. :/ I also can't do the bnb you do with strange. Having same problem connecting stuff. Thanks for the vids, though. I'm practicing all this stuff.

What character are you practicing the FotF loops on?

What I do with Strange is hold up back after S because simply holding up will move Strange closer to the character and screw up the spacing. With smaller characters delay the S on the ground because if you don't the S will pop them up higher than a heavier character.

One last thing don't go for more than 1 IP+FotF rep in the air right now. You want to get to a point where you can get 1 rep, land back on the ground and relaunch into another loop.

Also with Stange BnB's you'll get used to those with time.
 

Sayah

Member
What character are you practicing the FotF loops on?

What I do with Strange is hold up back after S because simply holding up will move Strange closer to the character and screw up the spacing. With smaller characters delay the S on the ground because if you don't the S will pop them up higher than a heavier character.

One last thing don't go for more than 1 IP+FotF rep in the air right now. You want to get to a point where you can get 1 rep, land back on the ground and relaunch into another loop.

Also with Stange BnB's you'll get used to those with time.

Usually I have wolverine out as the CPU.

I never tried holding up/back after taking to the air. Thanks for all the suggestions. I will try these when I'm on again and will post my results.
 
Man, Swapped Doom with Frank West as 2nd character. So now its Nova/Frank/Strider or Strange. Can't believe how good cart is at certain ranges and it builds so much meter for DHC.

Don't know how to use Lvl1 Frank though.
 
Usually I have wolverine out as the CPU.

I never tried holding up/back after taking to the air. Thanks for all the suggestions. I will try these when I'm on again and will post my results.
Ah, that's a mistake. Wolverine is a small character and can make learning combos more difficult. I recommend picking a medium-sized character as your training mode opponent. I usually pick Chris or Ryu.

Man, Swapped Doom with Frank West as 2nd character. So now its Nova/Frank/Strider or Strange. Can't believe how good cart is at certain ranges and it builds so much meter for DHC.

Don't know how to use Lvl1 Frank though.
inb4 Panda.
 
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