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[Karsticles]

...is this guy insinuating that Strider's bad or am I reading it wrong?

GB's Strider is a special scent of stanky ass. The man maintains to this day that Ouroboros is a waste of 3 bars.

 

["God's Beard!"]

...is this guy insinuating that Strider's bad or am I reading it wrong?

My Strider's bad :-(

 

[onionfrog]

GB's Strider is a special scent of stanky ass. The man maintains to this day that Ouroboros is a waste of 3 bars.

Damn, how could he? Ouroboros is great.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";57763064]My Strider's bad :-([/QUOTE]
Don't worry GB, my strider is not that great either.

I can't do Formation B OTG xx Ragnarok fast enough to save my life, it always whiffs.

 

[Karsticles]

I played against a Nova/Wright/Strider at locals this week. His Nova kicked my ass, his Wright was free, but I only beat him once because his Strider was goddamn incredible. It flowed like magic.

Spoiler

He never used Ouroboros.

Each match ended with the same comment from me: "Shuma-Gorath is such a piece of shit."

Seriously though, I need to be able to 300% teams from a touch. I got it to being able to 300% teams with 1 TAC (no infinite).

 

[Dahbomb]

...is this guy insinuating that Strider's bad or am I reading it wrong?

He's not saying he is bad but would you put point Strider on the same pedestal as point Magneto or point Zero?

Also 20 Iron Man buffs because I feel like it:

*Has an actual normal cancellable wave dash now

*Start up on all air dashes changed to Vanilla speed. Can now plink dash like he could in Vanilla. Otherwise the air dashes can be held down and retain momentum like they do in UMVC3 (so he's like a hybrid of Magneto and Nova).

*St.H horizontal range increased to match the range of cr.M

*J.M horizontal range increased to match the range of cr.M/new st.H

*Launcher has slightly better horizontal hit box

*Cr.H missile has semi-tracking capability

*Proton Cannon has 5 frames less recovery at the end

*Proton Cannon now causes untechable soft knockdown if cancelled before the final hit (like a lot of beams and other hypers)

*Proton Cannon's diagonal up version is now available from the QCF version by just aiming diagonally up, no need to input a different command just for it.

*DP + 2 attack buttons replaced with War Destroyer from MVC1/MVC2. Missiles hit going up and can OTG when going down (although unless set up properly it won't have enough time to hit OTG because how long it takes for them to come down)

*Aerial Smart Bombs trajectories changed for each version. Current version is M, L version is closer to his body and H version is away from his body.

*Smart Bombs are changed into Smart Missiles if charged up in the air (Iron Man stays stationary in the air). Charge is maintained for 30 frames, new projectiles are like an aerial version of Cr.H with semi tracking ability. Durability and speed varies with the button used.

*Iron Man can fly cancel his specials (basically just Unibeam and Smart Bomb) except for his Smart Missiles.

*All j.Hs have slightly more initial hit stun (like a couple of frames more)

*OTG Smart Bombs have slightly more initial hit stun initially

*Jump down + M gives Iron Man his old Knee Dive back. Is dash cancellable on block/hit but does not cause any type of knockdown

*Iron Avenger has a better vertical hit box

*Repulsar Spread (just like Repulsar Blast) cannot be pushed back.

*Give back Iron Man's double jump from Vanilla

*Smart Bomb assist changed with Cr.H missile


Reasons for the buffs individually so that people don't think I just put them there for the sake of change:

1) Without this Iron Mans' mobility on the ground is hot garbage. Better than shit characters who have nothing on the ground like Arthur but still no where near what a standard character has.

2) This is to make him not a giant target in the air. Iron Man's air dashes are like Nova's... only without the brain dead j.H OS select. Iron Man has to be very deliberate with the buttons he uses to approach and they aren't active for a long time nor do they have all encompassing hit boxes/OSs. Changing the start up would make him work like a hybrid of Vanilla Iron Man and current Iron Man where he can dash around in short bursts if needed or travel a long distance while keeping momentum.

3) 4) These two changes are grouped together so that he does not whiff his universal hit confirm at max cr.M distance. I mean this is pretty much a design oversight that Iron Man still has a possibility of dropping a confirmation because it's not at the right spacing.

5) I don't want the launcher to be less unsafe... I think all launchers should be very unsafe and punishable. Iron Man's launcher is specifically ass because of the range and even a good confirmation may result in a whiffed launcher.

6) Cr.H doesn't even go full screen and hits at an angle that is sort of irrelevant unless you are a short character right in front of Iron Man. Semi tracking so that Iron Man can at least hit someone in front of him and then also pressure with Unibeam plus Repulsar or flight to get near. Would be cool to use Cr.H and then approach with flight plink dash, would give the character some extra flavor.

7) Proton Cannon ON HIT is punishable in certain situations in the corner. This hyper has one of the worst recoveries in the game so I am just adjusting it so that you don't get punished for connecting the combo in the corner.

8) The soft knockdown change is for two reasons. One is that I want to be able to do PC XF PC like every other god damn beam hyper character in the game. Second reason is that I want more flexibility in DHC out options with Iron Man. A lot of the time the next hyper whiffs when most other hypers do not.

9) There really is no reason that a directional hyper of the same type should be on a completely different command. I mean you don't fucking press DP + 2 attack buttons to aim Shinku Hadouken up.. its lazy designing. Plus this frees up the directional input for the next hyper.

10) This is a returning hyper from MVC1/MVC2. In this game I just want this to be an option for Iron Man to be safely DHC'd in (Proton Cannon is highly unsafe). Plus it can lead to some cool THC shenanigans. I forgot to mention that War Destroyer is available as a THC if you select Repulsar Blast as an assist.

11) Currently all of Iron Man's aerial smart bombs are identical in trajectories which makes his air to ground predictable and easily negated. Smart Bombs in general are a terrible zoning tool, they are slow, unsafe and have low reward. Having different trajecetories on the different bombs would give him less predictability and a bit more space control in the air.

12) This change is to fix Iron Man's Smart Bombs being garbage. Even though the charge time is high you get rewarded by semi tracking slow projectiles. They of course do minimal damage but they are more of a space control.

13) The fly cancel is to make his Unibeam + Smart Bomb zoning better and safer. Trying to zone with just Unibeam or Smart Bomb is ass since they are so slow... you don't have the coverage of easy options like aerial Photon Shot or super safe Magnetic Blast/super fast Disruptors. Even if you do Unibeam fly Unibeam, the second Unibeam would still be unsafe if you miss it. You can't unfly during special move recovery.

14) The J.H hit stun change is for slightly easier confirmations in aerial situations or from grounded situations. I can live without this change but really though.. compared to most j.Hs in the game Iron Man's hit stun is paltry in comparison.

15) This is another change I can live without but it's mostly for better OTG pick ups from throws, corner combos, Repulsar Spread etc. The move has very low hit stun when before it had better hit stun in Vanilla (but it had worse recovery which was improved now). At the end of combos the hit stun would revert to what it is now so that he doesn't have infinites or some shit like that.

16) Currently Iron Man has nothing that hits directly below him aside from his j.S which is still not something you can rely on. If you get underneath Iron Man it's generally over for him. He used to have a Knee Dive for this situation. I don't want Iron Man to turn into a scrubby Knee Dive character so he is not going to have a knockdown on it and it will still be not that easy to confirm off of it in mid air. I just want a move that makes people respect Iron Man a bit which is really something you need desperately in this game.

17) This one is obvious... anyone who has played Iron Man for more than 10 games knows how much it sucks having his LVL3 whiff. The hit box on that move is surprisingly narrow for a LVL3.

18) I feel the property of Blast should transfer over to Spread.

19) I want my god damn double jump fuzzy guard mix ups back.

20) Smart Bomb assist is hot garbage, it does not have any other property aside from being an OTG. Cr.H missile as an assist would help out those characters who need a slower projectile to start their offense. Still would be undermined by Unibeam.

 

[Karsticles]

I like your new Iron Man, Dahbomb!

Ironically, the new dp.AA hyper would be perfect for setting up Firebrand unblockables.

20 buffs isn't crazy. This game has two types of characters: fleshed out ones (Dante, Magneto, Wolverine, Dr. Doom, etc.), and characters that were half-assed. You need a lot more than a handful of changes to flesh a character out, because this isn't just about making a character "good", it's about completing the feel that the character should have. Firebrand in his current state just doesn't feel right, just like Vanilla Dormammu didn't. My goal is always to complete the design and make the character feel right. I would even add regeneration to Berserker Charge just on that principle!

If FGTV were serious about this stuff, this is what would happen. Not those crappy 3-4 changes we get with each character. Just look at this crap:

Firebrand

NO ONE CARES*LVL3 hyper buffed somehow, faster secondary gargoyles so he has more combo potential during it
MAJOR NERF*Cannot build meter during his install hyper (FGTV thinks no LVL1 install hyper should build meter)
MAJOR NERF*Unblockable removed or changed
MINOR BUFF*His Fireball H has more hit stun/soft knockdown.. better for resets/mix ups/meaty set ups
MINOR BUFF*Damage scaling overall increased just a bit

Makes total sense to destroy everything that makes him unique and interesting aside from Bon Voyage in favor of a slight damage increase - whooo!

I predict these for Morrigan changes:
-Astral Vision no longer builds meter.
-Soul Fist disappears if Morrigan takes damage.
-Shell Kick hitbox reduced.
-Damage increased slightly.
-Level 3 can now be maneuvered.

LOL

 

[Dahbomb]

I predict these for Morrigan changes:
-Astral Vision no longer builds meter.
-Soul Fist disappears if Morrigan takes damage.
-Shell Kick hitbox reduced.
-Damage increased slightly.
-Level 3 can now be maneuvered.

That's what everyone expects as well. Although they will most likely change the damage, durability or hit stun on Soul Fists as well.

The point I was making before is that FGTV is making minimal changes for the most part... they are restricting to 5-6 changes at the most they don't want to overdo it. Firebrand got the shaft mostly because everyone agrees on two things... utility hypers for the most part should not be building meter during it and unblockable moves should not exist. I agree with this but those characters with utility hypers that build meter (like Kitty Helper) should have the hypers buffed accordingly. I mean then they have to compete with stuff like Devil Trigger, Astra Vision and Sogenmu etc.

I do agree personally that you need more than 5 changes for some characters. Like there is no way you can make Iron Fist good with just a few changes. Also before you blame anyone for the Firebrand changes... they were almost all Apologyman's idea. FChamp had 0 input on Firebrand and Magus/ShadyK didn't say much either.

 

[Karsticles]

That's what everyone expects as well. Although they will most likely change the damage, durability or hit stun on Soul Fists as well.

The point I was making before is that FGTV is making minimal changes for the most part... they are restricting to 5-6 changes at the most they don't want to overdo it. Firebrand got the shaft mostly because everyone agrees on two things... utility hypers for the most part should not be building meter during it and unblockable moves should not exist. I agree with this but those characters with utility hypers that build meter (like Kitty Helper) should have the hypers buffed accordingly. I mean then they have to compete with stuff like Devil Trigger, Astra Vision and Sogenmu etc.

I do agree personally that you need more than 5 changes for some characters. Like there is no way you can make Iron Fist good with just a few changes.

Making minimal changes is the same as doing a poor job. Do it right if you'll do it at all. All I see is them ruining characters that already don't get played.

I agree that unblockable moves should not exist. I would rather play my "honest" Firebrand than the dirtbag one I have to use now. It doesn't matter to me who suggested the changes: dumb is dumb. My inclination is to believe that ApologyMan doesn't actually want to play Firebrand. He would rather play his Frank West team. If he can nerf Firebrand, it removes the temptation. Sort of like how I've always wanted Hidden Missiles nerfed just so I don't have to feel "the need" to play him with Dormammu.

 

["God's Beard!"]

My iron man changes:

• bring back knee dive
• bring back war destroyer
• old smart bombs
• horizontal 2H
• passive hyper armor
• can no longer block
• refly

 

[Dahbomb]

Nah Apologyman really likes Firebrand and thinks he is a good character even without the unblockable. Although to be honest Apologyman doesn't know the full scope of the game even if he knows his character decently well. I am sure if he picked up Zero he would never play Firebrand again.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Anyone wanna play in about 20 minutes? Could be your last chance for a while to play me on my school connection!

 

[GuardianE]

I predict these for Morrigan changes:
-Astral Vision no longer builds meter.
-Soul Fist disappears if Morrigan takes damage.
-Shell Kick hitbox reduced.
-Damage increased slightly.
-Level 3 can now be maneuvered.

LOL

Sounds miserable.

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";57768522]Anyone wanna play in about 20 minutes? Could be your last chance for a while to play me on my school connection![/QUOTE]

 

[FSLink]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";57768522]Anyone wanna play in about 20 minutes? Could be your last chance for a while to play me on my school connection![/QUOTE]

I'm down. Finally got my internet back guys.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";57768522]Anyone wanna play in about 20 minutes? Could be your last chance for a while to play me on my school connection![/QUOTE]

Sounds miserable.

 

["God's Beard!"]

On now :-D

 

[Professor Beef]

IM has great hit boxes and frames on his moves.

That's like saying an ugly person has a great personality.

 

[FSLink]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";57770604]On now :-D[/QUOTE]

I forgot, PSN or XBL?

 

[Sigmaah]

Strider needs 900K health, GIMME MY HEALTH CAPCOM make it 1 mill actually.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I forgot, PSN or XBL?

PSN Gods_Beard

 

[Professor Beef]

God's Beard isn't entirely wrong about Ouroboros. It's great to use to quickly take down a team, but once it becomes a one-on-one battle, Ragnarok becomes infinitely more useful.

 

[onionfrog]

Strider needs 900K health, GIMME MY HEALTH CAPCOM make it 1 mill actually.

Too much, I'd be happy with 800 or 830k though. The same with akuma and RR too please.

 

[FSLink]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";57773464]PSN Gods_Beard[/QUOTE]

PSN: amodestproposal

 

["God's Beard!"]

I think i found a Hawkeye TAC infinite

 

[Frantic]

I'm tempted to do something a little different with a change list. Basically, list out a bunch of popular changes in regards to Dante and explain why they're dumb changes(in regards to being too good and what not). I think it'd be pretty fun to do.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I'm tempted to do something a little different with a change list. Basically, list out a bunch of popular changes in regards to Dante and explain why they're dumb changes(in regards to being too good and what not). I think it'd be pretty fun to do.

There's nothing wrong with Volcano being hard knockdown.

 

[FSLink]

Doesn't seem to want me to play against you God's Beard.

 

["God's Beard!"]

:-(

 

[Frantic]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";57774492]There's nothing wrong with Volcano being hard knockdown.[/QUOTE]Sounds perfectly reasonable!

 

[FSLink]

Anybody else want to play a few? I'm on PSN at the moment.

 

[DR2K]

Believe it or not, NRS did not make the Lego games. Oh and get this, they're supposed to look like Legos! WILD!

Is that so? I'm genuinely shocked.

 

[Azure J]

I'm tempted to do something a little different with a change list. Basically, list out a bunch of popular changes in regards to Dante and explain why they're dumb changes(in regards to being too good and what not). I think it'd be pretty fun to do.

I'll support this anyway I can.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";57774492]There's nothing wrong with Volcano being hard knockdown.[/QUOTE]

That's Fair™!

The Manly Seismo.

 

[ILL Virtue]

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

I played against a Nova/Wright/Strider at locals this week. His Nova kicked my ass, his Wright was free, but I only beat him once because his Strider was goddamn incredible. It flowed like magic.

Spoiler

He never used Ouroboros.

This sounds like such a strange team. Was he constantly trying to use Missile assist with air dashing H. It doesn't sound like Wright is bringing anything to the team besides that. If your gonna have a power up character like Wright, Frank or Phoenix it would make sense to build the team around them.

Each match ended with the same comment from me: "Shuma-Gorath is such a piece of shit."

How would you go about fixing him Karst. Increase damage and durability on his specials? Faster start up and recovery on his hypers?

 

[antikythera]

Is there actually some chance of an update? I would think at this point they'd do a next gen MVC4 if anything.

 

[Dahbomb]

On the topic of Shuma all he needs is to be able to combo after his lvl3 which by itself would move him in Upper Mid tier in the current meta. Having a better hit box on Mystic Smash would be helpful as well along with better durability on his beam.

 

[biosnake20]

Jwong tier list part 1 via http://www.eventhubs.com/columns/2013/may/15/step-your-game-chapter-14-ultimate-marvel-vs-capcom-3-tier-list-part-1/

Morrigan

Grade: S+


Pros: Amazing defensive normals against rush down characters, Fireball is very good to throw out as a defensive tool, Astral Vision is amazing and very hard for characters to stop the fireballs from behind. Shadow Servant super has high invincibility, Dark Harmonizer assist is very hard to punish, Able to steal meter with her Soul Drain, her unfly is 0 frames which makes it hard to punish her for throwing a fireball in flight mode. Very good air mobility.

Cons: Poor ground mobility and has no dash there, loses if you can bait her to push block which causes her to do a back dash fly. Combos are not very damaging.

Team Position: Point, Middle.

Partners: Dante, Vergil, Dr. Doom, Strider, Hawkeye, Magneto.


Vergil

Grade: S+

Pros: High damage combos, good priority and range on all his normals. Able to nullify projectiles with certain normals that use the actual blade, like st.H and S. Spiral Swords super is too strong and stops momentum from opponent. Devil Trigger boosts all of his special moves and enables him to air dash in the air. Probably the best X Factor 3 comeback in the game. Helm Breaker very strong priority which has the highest success rate for "Happy Birthdays." And Round trip glitch pressure too strong.

Cons: Low health and bad air mobility when not in Devil Trigger. Also relies too much on meter.

Team Position: Middle, Anchor.

Partners: Akuma, Frank West, Dante, Morrigan, Strider, Zero, Dr. Doom, Magneto, Nova, Wolverine.


Zero

Grade: S+

Pros: Amazing close and mid range normals, good air and ground mobility due to his teleport dash. Buster cancel into any special move is very strong to start mixups or keep pressure. Very hard to block his incoming mixups and able to make the game single player. Level 3 able to hit point and assist character.

Cons: Low health, high execution character and loses to strong zoners unless Zero has meter.

Team Position: Point.

Partners: Dante, Vergil, Strider, Dr. Doom.


C. Viper

Grade: S-

Pros: Very high damage and strong mobility on the ground and air. Her Seismo Hammer spam is very strong against ground characters and also good for assist punish. Her air throw conversion into combos are amazing and her EX moves are very good tools to open people up. Also able to setup unblockable setups with the use of certain assist.

Cons: Relies on her EX moves too much which can cause her to waste her meter if baited. Her normals have no reach so must rely on direct confrontation.

Team Position: Point.

Partners: Dr. Doom, Amaterasu, Dante, Strider, Vergil.


Spencer

Grade: S-

Pros: High damage combos and high health. Bionic Arm super is very good to use to counter projectiles or whiffed normals. Wire Grapple with H unscales which then you can loop a couple of times to do massive damage. Good air and ground mobility with his swing wire. Able to kill off a command throw.

Cons: Very hard to make his swing wire safe unless you have an assist.

Team Position: Point, Middle, Anchor.

Partners: Amaterasu, Chris Redfield, Dante, Frank West, Vergil, Wesker, Dr. Doom, Hawkeye, Iron Fist, Iron Man, Nova, Wolverine.


Amaterasu

Grade: A+

Pros: Very mobile in terms of air mobility with her air dash and stance cancels in the air. Can duck under many projectiles to avoid certain mixups. Her counters are very useful to use and very fast normals to help her neutral game. Also, both her level 1 supers are very useful for support. Her power slash move is a very good projectile to leave on the screen to help her defend against rush down characters. Very strong in the X Factor comeback area.

Cons: Low health and combos aren't the strongest without X Factor. Once X Factor is out then the character itself becomes not as threatening.

Team Position: Anchor.

Partners: Dr. Doom, Firebrand, C. Viper.


Firebrand

Grade: A+

Pros: Very good air mobility and ground mobility. Able to prevent people from playing if he lands a hit which leads into unblockables setups.

Cons: Low health and low damage and requires specific characters to make his unblockables work.

Team Position: Point.

Partners: Dr. Doom, Amatersu, Super-Skrull, Storm.


Frank West

Grade: A+

Pros: High health, amazing shopping cart assist, very easy to level up Frank which improves all his normals and super priority. Above average damage combos. Zombies do not count as projectiles which makes him able to play a zoning game.

Cons: If he cannot level up, he becomes a very weak character. Does not have a very fast low which makes his high/low game non-existent.

Team Position: Middle.

Partners: Dante, Vergil, Spencer, Wolverine, Rocket Raccoon, Nova, Super-Skrull.


Strider

Grade: A+

Pros: Amazing assist with Vajara, good air throw into combo conversions, has one of the best Level 3 X Factor comebacks in the game with Orbs.

Cons: Low health and low damage. Mixups are not as strong unless X Factor is activated.

Team Position: Anchor.

Partners: Dante, Morrigan, Vergil, Wesker, Zero, Dr. Doom.


Dante

Grade: A

Pros: Good air mobility and ground mobility. Many special moves that can help him fight any match up. Devil Trigger is good to power up the character and regenerates his red life when he is in that form. Good normals to poke with and able to combo due to his low hit stun deterioration moves.

Cons: His combos scale a lot, gets rushed down very easily, anti air normals are not as good compared to the old ones.

Team Position: Point, Middle.

Partners: Strider, Vergil, Dr. Doom, Wolverine, Chris, X-23, Magneto, Zero, Spencer, Frank West.


Viewtiful Joe

Grade: A

Pros: Small hatbox, Amazing air mobility. Voomerang Spam very strong non charge or charge. V Dodge amazing to use against opponent rush down. High priority on Desperado and Mach Speed super. Viewtiful God Hand is one of the best supers in the game.

Cons: Very little range on his normals and his damage is not as strong. Ground mobility is non existent.

Team Position: Point, Middle.

Partners: Dante, Frank West, Trish, Strider, Vergil, Dr. Doom, Dormammu, Dr. Strange, Rocket Raccoon, Sentinel, Hawkeye, Taskmaster.


Wesker

Grade: A

Pros: Very good ground mobility and decent air mobility. Able to abuse air gun shot into teleport down all the time. Very fast command throw and good comebacks with X Factor level 3. Phantom Dance good to use for random cross ups. Good OTG conversions off from any hard knock down move and air throw.

Cons: Super scales a lot if activated in the corner, hard to deal with strong zoners and also hard to deal with strong rush down characters.

Team Position: Point, Middle, Anchor.

Partners: Akuma, Chris Redfield, Dante, C. Viper, Frank West, Spencer, Trish, Strider, Vergil, Dr. Doom, Spider-Man, Taskmaster, X-23, Wolverine.


Akuma

Grade: B+

Pros: High damage combos, good air mobility with Demon Flip Palm, amazing level 3 to counter a lot of invincibile things, above average in terms of X Factor comeback potential. Able to punish assist very well with Beam super. Tatsu assist helps a lot of rush down characters.

Cons: Very low health which makes him hard to use because of how careful you will have to play. No range on his normals and needs meter to make opponent scared.

Team Position: Point or Anchor.

Partners: Wolverine, Spencer, Dr. Doom, Taskmaster, X-23, Rocket Raccoon, Vergil.


Chris Redfield

Grade B+

Pros: Good use of recoil special moves such as the different versions of grenades and land mines. Magnum is very strong to punish assist. High damaging combos and high health character.

Cons: Mobility on the ground and the air not as strong. Needs to get started before becoming effective. Incoming is very weak.

Team Position: Point.

Partners: Dante, Dr. Doom, Amaterasu, Spencer, Jill.


Felicia

Grade: B

Pros: Good air mobility and ground mobility. Air Delta Kick has very high priority. Kitty Helper super is very useful to make strong high/low mixups. Command throw is very strong. Very fast close up normals to keep up pressure. Good use for X Factor level 3.

Cons: Damage is very weak, cannot deal with zoners.

Team Position: Point, Anchor.

Partners: Dr. Doom, Vergil, Haggar, Frank West, Rocket Raccoon.


Haggar

Grade: B

Pros: High health and high damage combos, amazing invincible lariat. Lariat assist is very strong against rush down characters. Jumping Pipe has very high priority.

Cons: Air mobility and ground mobility are very weak, and his supers are not very strong. Very easy to bait his Lariat which causes him to lose life. Very hard to deal with zoners.

Team Position: Point, Anchor.

Partners: Wesker, Hulk, Sentinel, Dr. Doom, Dormammu.


Jill

Grade: B

Pros: Very good ground mobility, good close range normals. Good anti air with her Flash Kick move, Invincible Machine Gun Spray super to use to get out of sticky situations. Feral Stance is amazing for mixup purposes.

Cons: Poor air mobility, low health character, OTG damage is very low.

Team Position: Point, Middle.

Partners: Akuma, Frank West, Dante, Chris Redfield, Viewtiful Joe, Dr. Doom, Iron Man, Rocket Raccoon.


Trish

Grade: B

Pros: Good ground and air mobility, good mid range normals with her air dash H and her crouching M. Able to zone very well against rush down characters with her double jump, and her Hopscotch and Peekaboo trap. Able to use her Round trip super to make certain mixups unblockable depending on the team.

Cons: Low damage, OTG is not very strong, Round Trip is not useful unless you tag. Loses to stronger zoners very easily.

Team Position: Point, Middle.

Partners: Amaterasu, Dante, Spencer, Vergil, Wesker, Dr. Doom, Nova, Rocket Raccoon.


Ryu

Grade: B-

Pros: High damage combos, Shinku Hadouken Super is very useful to punish assists, Denjin mode super changes his super animation which can be useful. Decent mobility on the ground.

Cons: Loses to runaway, needs to rely on assist to get in and air mobility is not as strong.

Team Position: Point.

Partners: Akuma, Dr. Doom, Sentinel.


Chun-Li

Grade: C+

Pros: Very good mobility in the air and ground, able to jump cancel out of some of her normals. Lightning Legs very good priority and also a good assist. Also, her TAC infinite is reliable.

Cons: Very hard execution character, not a lot of damage without the use of assist, X Factor is very hard to control with her.

Team Position: Anchor.

Partners: Wolverine, Dr. Doom, Vergil, Magneto, Sentinel.


Arthur

Grade: C

Pros: Many types of projectiles that can be used to cover many parts of the screen. Level 3 can be used for "Happy Birthday" purposes. Very strong with the X Factor and Armor Upgrade super position.

Cons: Low health, mobility in general is very weak and very hard to land clean hits with him.

Team Position: Anchor.

Partners: Dante, Deadpool, Taskmaster, Nova.


Nemesis

Grade: C

Pros: Easy high damage combos, good resets with his command throw. Has armor on his standing H which can lead into good "Happy Birthday" situations.

Cons: Level 3 is very hard to land, gets rushed down very easily and air mobility is non-existent.

Team Position: Point.

Partners: Strider, Haggar, Hulk, Dr. Doom, Frank West, Wesker.


Tron Bonne

Grade: C

Pros: High damage combos, good priority on her air dash H and S.

Cons: Gets rushed down very easily, air and ground mobility are mediocre, not able to zone with her projectiles.

Team Position: Point.

Partners: Amaterasu, Dante, Vergil, Dr. Doom, Iron Man, She-Hulk, Sentinel.


Phoenix Wright

Grade: C-

Pros: Good durability on his evidence items, Maya Shield is very good to gain evidence. Once Turnabout mode is activated his H becomes a very strong poke.

Cons: Very bad ground and air mobility, very bad normals, evidence is not guaranteed to gain, very hard to land turnabout mode.

Team Position: Point, Middle.

Partners: Dr. Doom, Spencer, Rocket Raccoon, Vergil.


Hsien-Ko

Grade: D

Pros: Able to jump cancel some of her normals, able to reflect projectiles, armor super buff very good to help her Pendulum assist, making it highly very effective.

Cons: Poor air mobility and ground mobility, very low damage combos, X Factor not strong, able to run away from her very easily.

Team Position: Point.

Partners: Amaterasu, Wolverine, X-23, Spider-Man.

Morrigan S+ lol

 

[Grecco]

First Marvel wont re-sign with Capcom, then we see Marvel games being made by WB Game studios because their studios have a proven record of pulling profits with comic licenses. Keep ignoring the signs Enzo. Stan Lee is even involved with the Injustice pre-launch Battle Arena and he's incredibly associated with Marvel.

Follow the money is all I'm saying and if Capcom does by a miracle get a MVC4 pray they learn from NRS and their tactics on single player meaty content to make it pull a profit this time around.

Stan Lee has barely worked with marvel in years bro. meaningless. Warner Bros will not make a Marvel fighting game

 

[Zissou]

I played against a Nova/Wright/Strider at locals this week. His Nova kicked my ass, his Wright was free, but I only beat him once because his Strider was goddamn incredible. It flowed like magic.

Spoiler

He never used Ouroboros.

Each match ended with the same comment from me: "Shuma-Gorath is such a piece of shit."

Seriously though, I need to be able to 300% teams from a touch. I got it to being able to 300% teams with 1 TAC (no infinite).

Were you snapping in Strider?

 

[Karsticles]

LOL @ JWong listing Storm up there for Firebrand partners.

I'm tempted to do something a little different with a change list. Basically, list out a bunch of popular changes in regards to Dante and explain why they're dumb changes(in regards to being too good and what not). I think it'd be pretty fun to do.

I would enjoy that.

http://i.imgur.com/2bHpvne.png?1

Magneto looks just like the real Megaman. :-(

This sounds like such a strange team. Was he constantly trying to use Missile assist with air dashing H. It doesn't sound like Wright is bringing anything to the team besides that. If your gonna have a power up character like Wright, Frank or Phoenix it would make sense to build the team around them.

It was actually solid. He used Vajra as his main neutral assist, and only used Missile as a reset tool for unblockables. He would early DHC out of Nova Force to Wright's M-Maya?! to collect evidence. Sometimes he would double up on the M-Maya?! hyper to collect more evidence.

How would you go about fixing him Karst. Increase damage and durability on his specials? Faster start up and recovery on his hypers?

His damage is actually excellent - it's the one thing he doesn't need to change. His durability is fine, too. I really feel like Shuma-Gorath deserves a remake, because he is just not true to his character. Who looks at this guy and thinks "Oh yeah, that's a God of the Chaos Dimension"? Here's what I would add to him:

1) A screen-relative teleport (rdp). Performed with L, it places Shuma-Gorath at the top of the grounded (no one superjumping) screen in the top-left corner. M in the top-right corner.
H on the bottom-left corner. S in the bottom-right corner. Usable in the air.

2) 8-way air dash. Moves about 1.5 times the distance of his current air dash.

3) Mystic Stare is now qcf.

4) Mystic Smash is now dp L/M/H

5) Mystic Ray is now dp.S - only the H version is left, but it has been changed so that he can use it for combo purposes whenever he was able to use L or M versions (they're pointless outside of combos).

6) Mystic Ray damage increased by ~100,000.

7) j.S is now +10 on block (has to be chicken blocked like other "dive kick" attacks).

8) Chaos Dimension can be comboed off of with OTG assists or solo in XF1/2/3.

9) j.S is special-cancelable (this allows him to follow up from a MMHS by teleporting to the ground).

10) s.H petrifies opponents (this is how it worked in MSH if he had a Time Gem; it's not used for anything right now, so making it a really good poke sounds fun). This applies to all variants of his H attacks.

11) s.H negates projectiles, causing a mass of energy to form wherever the projectile was. After 180 frames, it explodes, dealing unblockable hard knockdown damage. This applies to all variants of his H attacks.

12) Shuma-Gorath's command grabs now steal meter like his normal grabs do.

13) Shuma-Gorath's ground dash now moves at double its normal distance in the same amount of time.

14) Shuma-Gorath's command grabs now have roughly as much range as Skrull's L command grab. L grabs in front of him, M grabs diagonally, and H grabs in front of him.

15) New hyper: rdp.AA gives Shuma-Gorath a clone which mimmicks his moves after a 15 frame delay. This sounds like it's just copying Zero, but Shuma-Gorath actually had it first! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDV46jpfwKs&t=03m38s

16) Mystic Smash is dash-cancelable at any time.

17) Mystic Smash's hitbox increased just enough that it cannot be air thrown by most characters.

18) Grounded Mystic Smash now provides enough frame advantage on hit to combo off of it.

19) Aerial Mystic Smash provides slightly more hitstun on hit now (help with wonky combos).

20) Shuma-Gorath can use his command grabs in the air. L is in front of him, M is down-forward, and H is below him.

If I just wanted him to be viable, I would double his dash and air dash distance, and make all of his attacks non-charge motions. He would be less than ass then, but not good.

His hypers are fine. It's actually because Hyper Mystic Ray takes so long to finish that he can link two of them via Mystic Stare. If it were given better recovery, it would not go well.

Is there actually some chance of an update? I would think at this point they'd do a next gen MVC4 if anything.

No chance.

On the topic of Shuma all he needs is to be able to combo after his lvl3 which by itself would move him in Upper Mid tier in the current meta. Having a better hit box on Mystic Smash would be helpful as well along with better durability on his beam.

We're trying to get away from characters being gimmicks, though!

Were you snapping in Strider?

Naw, because I don't have all my setups figured out yet. I've only played the team 5 times or so.

 

[Dahbomb]

We are also trying to make characters better without changing everything about them! Its easy as hell to make a good character with 20 changes but its more challenging to make one with less than 5 well thought out changes.

Those Shuma changes are essentially remaking the character. With his damage giving him teleports, 8 way air dashes, Skrull level command grabs (that can also be used in the air) plus all those changes would make him an obvious top tier. I think the buffs on Mystic Smash are all he really needs and of course take out the charge stuff, no character in a VS game should have it.

 

[Professor Beef]

I can't wait to see where Wong lists Doom. The fact that he thinks Morrigan is S+ and not Doom is laughable.

Nice to see someone give VJoe props, though.

 

[Dahbomb]

The only reason why JWong would've listed Storm as a partner for Firebrand because he probably gets unblockable off of Ice Storm. Maybe he gets a ghetto unblockable from Typhoon but I doubt it. Akuma as a point is LOL!

Overall not a bad tier list at all but I want to see the whole thing before commenting on it. Dante is low, I like him for S-/A+ minimum. Doom should be S+ tier as well when he gets tiered.

 

[Karsticles]

We are also trying to make characters better without changing everything about them! Its easy as hell to make a good character with 20 changes but its more challenging to make one with less than 5 well thought out changes.

Those Shuma changes are essentially remaking the character. With his damage giving him teleports, 8 way air dashes, Skrull level command grabs (that can also be used in the air) plus all those changes would make him an obvious top tier. I think the buffs on Mystic Smash are all he really needs and of course take out the charge stuff, no character in a VS game should have it.

I said that it was a remake, flat out. Why call me out on what I blatantly said I was doing? And I said the grabs only have Skull L grab distance.

And you're wrong about what he needs. You don't play him.

Like I said, some characters had a lot of thought put into them. Dante was given ~40 moves. Shuma-Gorath didn't even get his ~8 moves from previous games put in, and he can't even combo into a hyper from mid-screen without a ridiculous amount of effort. He's a terrible character who does not fit the theme of what he is supposed to represent at all. You cannot fix him with only 5 changes, and my goal is not to do as much with as little as possible, but rather to do a good job and make a good character that is fun to play. That's my standard, and I stick by it. I would gladly give any character 20 changes just for the sake of having to think about how to make the characters interesting. I didn't even give Shuma-Gorath better assists like I meant to!

The only reason why JWong would've listed Storm as a partner for Firebrand because he probably gets unblockable off of Ice Storm. Maybe he gets a ghetto unblockable from Typhoon but I doubt it. Akuma as a point is LOL!

Overall not a bad tier list at all but I want to see the whole thing before commenting on it. Dante is low, I like him for S-/A+ minimum. Doom should be S+ tier as well when he gets tiered.

Akuma is a beast on point. Give it a try sometime.

Firebrand does get unblockables off of Storm's hyper, but if that's all it takes then Dormammu is far, far better of a choice, and he could also put Trish on there. Probably Tron, too. It's weird to see just Storm.

 

[mr. puppy]

Justin Wong's tier list is interesting.

I'm curious guys, what is a better team:

Zero/Morrigan/Doom (Hidden Missiles)

or

Zero/Morrigan/Dante (Jam Session)

 

[GuardianE]

Morrigan at S+? What the fuck is Wong smoking?

 

[Professor Beef]

Justin Wong's tier list is interesting.

I'm curious guys, what is a better team:

Zero/Morrigan/Doom (Hidden Missiles)

or

Zero/Morrigan/Dante (Jam Session)

What does Morrigan gain from Jam Session?

 

[Karsticles]

Justin Wong's tier list is interesting.

I'm curious guys, what is a better team:

Zero/Morrigan/Doom (Hidden Missiles)

or

Zero/Morrigan/Dante (Jam Session)

They're both good, but the second one is about maximizing Zero, while the first is about maximizing Morrigan.

 

[Dahbomb]

Morrigan at S+? What the fuck is Wong smoking?

When you have lost the past 8 tournaments to one character/player it starts to get to your head.

And I can't blame him. Although even he should see that something is wrong when a S+ character has that many weaknesses. He even cites that baiting her into a push block is essentially a death sentence for her.

Zero/Morrigan/Doom (Hidden Missiles)

or

Zero/Morrigan/Dante (Jam Session)

The first one because it has get out of jail free Hidden Missiles at the back. They are about the same though, both super strong teams and one is a better Zero team while the other is a better Morrigan team.

 

[MiniBossBattle]

Morrigan at S+? What the fuck is Wong smoking?

Morrigan/Doom made JRosa competitive in tourneys and NerdJosh uses them so you know its the best. S-tier confirmed.