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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
At this stage Morrigan is going to be top 5 in the tier list of every top/pro player. Even on ChrisG's own list... he and Dieminion declared Morrigan top 5 at the start of Ultimate when people were still on that Wesker bandwagon. The rest of the players are just now falling in line.
At least ChrisG and Dieminion are backing up their claim.
At least ChrisG and Dieminion are backing up their claim.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Well if Chris G says it then it's true. What the hell do you IWC theory fighters know?
There's one problem with your statement.
There's no question that she's good, but Wong should know better... especially with how much thought he's seemingly giving this list. Morrigan isn't Top 5, all things considered.
Got a source? Not that I don't believe you, I'm curious as to what else ChrisG or Dieminion said at the time.
There's no real evidence to suggest that she isn't top 5 in the game. Yes she has weaknesses but so do some of the other S+ characters in the game (just check Justin's list). The whole "stop her before she gets started" argument is a bad one and can be used against every other top character (snap in Vergil, zone out Zero/kill him first, snap in/zone out Doom).
Morrigan more than any other character in the game makes a good portion of the cast unplayable. Yes I know it's Morrigan PLUS Doom but that applies to other characters as well... they need an additional caveat to be truly S+ (like Zero + Dante, Viper + Strider, Vergil plus XF3). MorriDoom is like the inverse of Wolverine/Akuma in Vanilla... what MorriDoom does against rushdown/grapple characters Wolverine/Akuma did against zoning/keep away teams.
You would have to find the archive of a ChrisG interview from WAY back (like over a year ago). I will try to find it but I don't think I will be successful.
Karsticles
Member
*slow clap*
It's obvious that not even Justin is evaluating characters in a vacuum. He is evaluating Morrigan in her most optimum situation which is backed up by Doom. Just like no one would evaluate an assistless Wolverine or a Vergil with no resources in a vacuum. If people tiered characters in a vacuum... Frank West would be C- tier.
Also this is interesting and relevant to my interests:
http://www2.eventhubs.com/news/2013...-usage-statistics-top-8-road-evo-tournaments/
I guess we can stop saying Morrigan is a rare character in the meta game.
The short answer? Because it's too much work to do it unconventionally like Viscant did. That, and the masses enjoy having individual characters to blame.
I don't think characters should be evaluated in a vacuum, but I also don't think they should be evaluated based on their optimal pairings. Their overall utility to general team structure, in all roles, is far more important.
If Morrigan/Doom is pretty much the only combination that's dominant (which thus far is absolutely true... the only Morrigan I've seen without Doom is Dieminion), then I don't see how she can be labeled as S+. Zero doesn't need Dante. Viper doesn't need Strider. Their dominance can be fulfilled, compellingly, with alternatives and is not ENTIRELY dependent on a single other character.
Who the hell cares what a character is like in non optimum situations? Should we really care to evaluate Vergil as a character when he's backed up by bad assists or no assists or no XF? In that case he isn't S+ tier if played on point... I mean why would he be?
Characters in this game are usually specialists. You don't say Wolverine is not a good character because he isn't a good support. Or Amaterasu a bad character because she isn't godly on point. You don't need to be a jack of all trades to be an effective character, you can win with a simple but powerful game plan and toolset.
In the end a tier list is there to figure out who when played at their optimum has the best chance at winning a match when both players are equally skilled. You don't tier based on non optimum play.
Characters in this game are usually specialists. You don't say Wolverine is not a good character because he isn't a good support. Or Amaterasu a bad character because she isn't godly on point. You don't need to be a jack of all trades to be an effective character, you can win with a simple but powerful game plan and toolset.
In the end a tier list is there to figure out who when played at their optimum has the best chance at winning a match when both players are equally skilled. You don't tier based on non optimum play.
Morrigan doesn't NEED Missiles either just like Zero doesn't NEED Jam Session. Those assists are there for them to play optimum. Players have performed well without Doom missiles... Xian placed high at a couple of tourneys with just Plasma Beam. I mean if we are going to play that card.
Karsticles
Member
The most puzzling number on there, I think, is Rocket Raccoon. Solid anchor with great assists, and no one uses him. Oi.
Professor Beef
Banned
Another interesting statistic... characters who have survived the most as a point.
I am thinking of paying $4 for all the stats. Take one for Marvel GAF.
Don't lump us in with the suckers who would pay for those stats. That's all you.
No I am saying that I should take one for Marvel GAF and purchase it, then share it with the rest of you guys here.
Karsticles
Member
Are those from Eventhubs? I know I'd love to see the stats.
No this is from another FG stats site which is what Eventhubs almost always links from.
The stats take into account mostly the Road to EVO tournaments plus the international ones. This includes Africa, Canada and Japan EVO events as well. That's why you see characters like Thor on the character count even though there really hasn't been a Thor in top 8 in American tourneys.
The stats take into account mostly the Road to EVO tournaments plus the international ones. This includes Africa, Canada and Japan EVO events as well. That's why you see characters like Thor on the character count even though there really hasn't been a Thor in top 8 in American tourneys.
It's just disingenuous to label a character in such a fashion because it encourages ridiculous balance changes and perpetuates misinformation about the "problem", if people want to call it that.
The reason why I'm interested in knowing how a character plays in sub-optimal situations is because UMvC3's "optimal" goes to shit very quickly. Losing a character happens in the blink of an eye. In fact, most players spend most of their time using characters in non-optimal conditions. It's not like SF, where your character strength/effectiveness doesn't change throughout th course of a match. If a character is completely helpless on point without assists, that weighs into a characters' overall utility as an anchor. Morrigan rarely makes comebacks and once Doom is dead, Morrigan's effectiveness drops exponentially. The drop in effectiveness for a character like Zero, Viper, or Vergil is dwarfed by comparison.
Vergil isn't S+ only because of his role as a Lvl3 Xfactor anchor, and you know this. There's a distinction to be made because he can fit every role, and can do so in a high-optimal fashion.
And yeah. Xian used Morrigan/DOOM Plasma Beam. That's still MorriDoom, last I checked.
In that case we shouldn't be rating Zero as a S+ tier character because in sub optimal conditions (which is anchor or un-assisted Zero) he is not the best.
Vergil without meter, XF and assists is not even a High tier character. Iron Fist can beat Vergil in that situation. I mean if things go to shit fast in UMVC3... that situation CAN happen (and it has happened, most players lose in this situation).
You just have to ask yourself how often do players get to fight ChrisG's Morrigan unassisted? Or how many times do you go against an unassisted Zero? How many times do you fight a Vergil with absolutely no resources? The weightage of these sub optimal situations is very low.
I don't think I will buy that stats sheet. I think it only has 3 major stat breakdowns... combo drops on consoles for UMVC3, character usage and character survival. It may also have a teams breakdown but I don't think its necessary, I can figure that out by myself.
Vergil without meter, XF and assists is not even a High tier character. Iron Fist can beat Vergil in that situation. I mean if things go to shit fast in UMVC3... that situation CAN happen (and it has happened, most players lose in this situation).
You just have to ask yourself how often do players get to fight ChrisG's Morrigan unassisted? Or how many times do you go against an unassisted Zero? How many times do you fight a Vergil with absolutely no resources? The weightage of these sub optimal situations is very low.
I don't think I will buy that stats sheet. I think it only has 3 major stat breakdowns... combo drops on consoles for UMVC3, character usage and character survival. It may also have a teams breakdown but I don't think its necessary, I can figure that out by myself.
Stats would awesome. Of course no one would tier non-optimum pairings, but lots of characters either have disputed optimum teams, or multiple viable positions. Anchor Vergil and Vergil in the second position are pretty different beasts but are both viable slots for the character. I don't know if point Vergil is still played though.
I never said that a character's strength should be evaluated only in non-optimal conditions, only that those conditions should weigh into the evaluation of a character. Zero is not the best in non-optimal conditions, but he's better than most and he's still one of the best point characters with a variety of different assists against most of the cast... with or without meter, with or without X-Factor.
Otherwise, call that S+ slot what it really is: Morrigan/Doom.
Players don't get to fight ChrisG's Morrigan unassisted because players spend absolutely all resources to kill her right off the bat. I think it'd be interesting to see a player spend all their resources to kill Doom. Then they have to fight Lvl 3 X-Factor Vergil, but that's a whole different problem.
Your own list of examples, I feel, expresses why I dislike the analysis of only a character with optimal assists + positioning + meter + X-factor. You talk about an unassisted Morrigan, an unassisted Zero, but then a Vergil with NO RESOURCES. Because giving Vergil ANY resources makes him a threat. I think that's an important distinction that's not reflected in a tier list.
Andre still plays point Vergil and so does Taekua but since you either face someone like Wolverine or Morrigan, Vergil with low meter at the start gets defeated rather convincingly. He has been confined to either secondary or anchor position in the meta game.
I don't think a dedicated point Vergil player has done well in a long time.
I don't think a dedicated point Vergil player has done well in a long time.
People do that a lot and they get defeated by Morrigan backed up by Rapid Slash. It has been long ascertained that blowing resources to take out just Doom is not the best strategy at all.
Karsticles
Member
*CHANTS* Rate Teams, Not Characters! *CHANTS*
I haven't seen a player try to do that in a long ass time. I rarely RARELY see ChrisG left with Morrigan/Vergil. And when he does, it's Vergil that gets him the win. And ChrisG knows this, which is why he will DHC PhotoArray into Astral Vision ASAP.
Yeah, you're right. Pairings, at least.
5v5 WC vs EC exhibition confirmed for ECT.
Place your picks.
West Coast:
Justin "Marvelous" Wong
Filipino "EVO" Champ
PR "YOLO" Balrog
AGE "Promo Code" Fanatiq
"Golden Boy" Neo
East Coast:
AGE Christopher "Genius" Gonzalez
IFC "maybe casual mode but probably drunk mode" Yipes
MH "Gohan" RayRay
TA "Technical Athlete" Moonz
Noel "The Best in the World Professional" Brown
Maybe:
GU "2nd place expert" Flocker
EMP "The Lame One" Dieminion
Although it's hard to say who is coming. I listed it based on who will be showing up.
Place your picks.
West Coast:
Justin "Marvelous" Wong
Filipino "EVO" Champ
PR "YOLO" Balrog
AGE "Promo Code" Fanatiq
"Golden Boy" Neo
East Coast:
AGE Christopher "Genius" Gonzalez
IFC "maybe casual mode but probably drunk mode" Yipes
MH "Gohan" RayRay
TA "Technical Athlete" Moonz
Noel "The Best in the World Professional" Brown
Maybe:
GU "2nd place expert" Flocker
EMP "The Lame One" Dieminion
Although it's hard to say who is coming. I listed it based on who will be showing up.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Lately it's what I've been doing. Well not all my resources because I've found that it doesn't really work out. I've been running different Jill teams and getting pretty decent results. I'm trying to figure out what would be the best against MorriDoom but I'm having a difficult time. I have a solid strategy with 2 bars, but I can't consistently get to that so I'm not counting on it. I'm trying to get this done with just one bar.
I really think Jill has the potential to end this MorriDoom bullshit.
She is one of the few rushdown characters that can actually beat out Shell Kick and can maneuver on the ground fast enough to pressure Morrigan with a good assist. With 2 meters plus something like a full screen hyper (like Proton Cannon, Million Dollars) she can take care of Doom while also getting mix ups on Morrigan with a clutch THC... IF she gets the meter.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
That's basically what I've been doing. I've been pairing her with Strange, Ammy, Deadpool, Iron Man, and Dante. 2 bars and I'm good, but one bar I'm kinda lost. If Tron still had her awesome assist then I'd probably be good to go.
What I've been trying is to just use her super to get in and do a little damage to Doom and then call Haggar afterward and try for some sort of mixup on Morrigan.
biosnake20
Member
967k with firebrand and doom starting with one bar.
You could put marlinpie in the maybe section as well but the teams you picked are what most people would pick. Who are the confirmed EC players going to ECT?
You could put marlinpie in the maybe section as well but the teams you picked are what most people would pick. Who are the confirmed EC players going to ECT?
"God's Beard!"
Member
I'd put Apologyman in over Fanatiq and Combofiend over Neo.
If Tron still had her bullshit assist, the Morrigan player would have access to it too
Karsticles
Member
Hmm, does that work with Shuma-Gorath?
The Mango Sentinel
Member
If Tron still had her bullshit assist, the Morrigan player would have access to it too
I think in Morrigan's case, it probably wouldn't make a difference if she used Tron or Haggar.
For Jill, at least for me, it's a DHC and THC thing.
I think an invincible assist would help her a lot. Currently, a lot characters have to hit her during the opening gambit or they're fucked. If she had an invincible assist, she'd have an easier time escaping the initial pressure and getting her zoning game going.
Professor Beef
Banned
Anyone on PS3 wanna play?
Professor Beef
Banned
Did he TAC into Doom's infinite and then stop at a million?
"God's Beard!"
Member
more like DHC into Doom's Time
Anyoen can break a mil if they can hard tag to Doom.
"God's Beard!"
Member
My GAF combo challenge:
Are you man enough?
Hard mode: 2 characters
Easy mode: Heroes & Heralds
- 10 hard tags
- no TACs
- no meter refill
- normal x-factor level
Are you man enough?
Hard mode: 2 characters
Easy mode: Heroes & Heralds
Professor Beef
Banned
Doesn't Viewtiful Joe get nearly that many hard tags thanks to Slow?
Professor Beef
Banned
VJoe just keeps ruining GB's life. :lol
"God's Beard!"
Member
No, I knew about that before making the challenge. It's up to you if you're not clever enough to make your own combos.
It's hard as fuck to do Hawkeye combos on Joe, though.
You need to be more specific here. Are you talking about TACs (Team Aerial Combos) or wall bounce combos?
They both don't require "links". TACs are performed by pressing S + a direction in the air which will bring in another character to continue the air combo. Wall bounces are character specific, only some character have it.