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[GuardianE]

Hidden Missiles are far less problematic. They don't kill your entire team off a touch, and they don't make it a 1 player game. They're just a little too good, and I emphasize a little. If you gave them another 15 seconds of startup time, they would be perfectly fine. The real problem is a lack of decent characters with good assists. What makes Doom so pickable is that he has S tier assists and ~A tier gameplay solo. There are only two other characters I can say that about: Strider, and Rocket Raccoon. RR is hard as hell to play, though, so no one uses him. If Niitsuma had the brains to spread the assist love around, I promise you that Hidden Missiles would not be seen nearly as much.

I'm just not entirely confident there are a wealth of moves out there with the same utility as Hidden Missiles that could be converted into assists. It plays a lot of roles, some exclusively.

I'm assuming you meant 1.5 seconds of startup time? I personally don't think that's enough. You should be able to destroy the Hidden Missiles, and there should be fewer of them.

 

[Karsticles]

I'm just not entirely confident there are a wealth of moves out there with the same utility as Hidden Missiles that could be converted into assists. It plays a lot of roles, some exclusively.

I'm assuming you meant 1.5 seconds of startup time? I personally don't think that's enough. You should be able to destroy the Hidden Missiles, and there should be fewer of them.

I actually meant 15 frames of startup time, haha. 1.5 seconds of startup time would render the assist completely unusable.

I think it's important to keep in mind that a few characters are only viable because of Hidden Missiles, like Dormammu and Morrigan.

You can destroy the missiles, FYI. Unless you mean destroying them via normals. I would be okay with that. It works for Trish's traps. Reducing the missile count by 2 (to 6, right?) would also be fine. It should be less effective as a pinning assist. Those are good suggestions.

And I don't mind Hidden Missiles having its niche, I just want more anti-air options. I've typed up a considerable list of under-utilized moves that would make great AA assists a few times. There's a lot out there, and people just don't recognize it.

 

["God's Beard!"]

The problem is that the other anti air assists don't have the myriad other uses that Hidden Missiles has. Being able to OTG twice and then call a second assist during its active frames is huge. Not to mention saving your ass from resets in the sky.

Also, I think that I'm gonna save my jS into Round Trip combo for Devil Trigger. That shit is just too hard to time.

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";69838586]The problem is that the other anti air assists don't have the myriad other uses that Hidden Missiles has. Being able to OTG twice and then call a second assist during its active frames is huge. Not to mention saving your ass from resets in the sky.

Also, I think that I'm gonna save my jS into Round Trip combo for Devil Trigger. That shit is just too hard to time.[/QUOTE]
I didn't even know you could j.S into Round Trip until you said such.

All anti-air assists have multiple uses. If you tone Missiles down a bit, I think it would be fine.

 

[kick51]

Only 6 hours?! Sounds like your hands need to go to boot camp.

Heh, they already died on pad, that's why I'm switching! I haven't been able to put more than 2 hours a day for the past few months on pad. I like my long sessions on weekend mornings.

Tendons in my thumb got all swollen from pad and I would wake up with a clicking thumb. Hands take fucking forever to heal too

 

[BaroqueSampson]

Karst, do you think missiles disappearing upon hitting the Doom assist would be a fair nerf?

 

[Marz]

Why is Gram assist for Strider not considered really good? Seems decently fast, Strider appears behind your character, lots of range, doesn't scale combos...what am I missing?

 

[GuardianE]

I actually meant 15 frames of startup time, haha. 1.5 seconds of startup time would render the assist completely unusable.

I think it's important to keep in mind that a few characters are only viable because of Hidden Missiles, like Dormammu and Morrigan.

You can destroy the missiles, FYI. Unless you mean destroying them via normals. I would be okay with that. It works for Trish's traps. Reducing the missile count by 2 (to 6, right?) would also be fine. It should be less effective as a pinning assist. Those are good suggestions.

And I don't mind Hidden Missiles having its niche, I just want more anti-air options. I've typed up a considerable list of under-utilized moves that would make great AA assists a few times. There's a lot out there, and people just don't recognize it.

For some reason, I thought that you couldn't destroy the missiles. I don't know where I heard that, but I don't play teams that can do that readily, so I never contested it. Good to know! So, ignoring all other things, if I Jam Session after Hidden MIssiles is called, would it neutralize the missiles? I could swear that I've been hit trying to do that, but I could definitely be wrong there.

Yeah, 1.5 seconds is a bit much for sure. Unless it's SFxT seconds. And yes, I think the missile count reduced by 2 would make a huge difference without sacrificing the utility of the assist.

I'm not sure that Morrigan is only viable with Hidden Missiles. It's certainly her best option, but I think that there are alternatives that work. They won't be the catch-all that a Morrigan player ideally wants, but I don't think that renders were unable to compete.

I guess I'm just not seeing the anti-air options for many characters (anti-air being anti-superjump/flight). I'm sure there are some, but I don't know if any would match the multi-purpose utility of Hidden Missiles.

Karst, do you think missiles disappearing upon hitting the Doom assist would be a fair nerf?

I'd be alright with this, though I think that it shouldn't be done in conjunction to any other nerfs the assist might take.

 

[EsotericManiac]

For some reason, I thought that you couldn't destroy the missiles. I don't know where I heard that, but I don't play teams that can do that readily, so I never contested it. Good to know! So, ignoring all other things, if I Jam Session after Hidden MIssiles is called, would it neutralize the missiles? I could swear that I've been hit trying to do that, but I could definitely be wrong there.

Yeah, 1.5 seconds is a bit much for sure. Unless it's SFxT seconds. And yes, I think the missile count reduced by 2 would make a huge difference without sacrificing the utility of the assist.

I'm not sure that Morrigan is only viable with Hidden Missiles. It's certainly her best option, but I think that there are alternatives that work. They won't be the catch-all that a Morrigan player ideally wants, but I don't think that renders were unable to compete.

you should as I've seen many times Magneto players using lvl super to clear out missles.

Morrigan without hidden missles allows too many characters to get away and waste most of her bar.

 

[Karsticles]

Karst, do you think missiles disappearing upon hitting the Doom assist would be a fair nerf?

I think it would likely be a bit much. The only reason Hidden Missiles is so safe is that once the missiles get launched, people have to watch their actions. Take something like Morrigan using Hidden Missiles, and imagine the following scenario:

Morrigan vs. Dormammu

1) Morrigan jumps, fires a Soul Fist, fly-cancels.
2) Dormammu blocks Soul Fist.
3) Morrigan calls Hidden Missiles since it is not protected by Soul Fist's blockstun.
4) Morrigan fires another Soul Fist, and unflys.
5) Hidden Missiles is ~30% done.

Now, in the current meta, this is all safe and good, and Dormammu will not Chaotic Flame Dr. Doom because halfway through the hyper, missiles will hit him and interrupt the attack, making him take damage and saving Dr. Doom.

However, if Hidden Missiles disappears on hit, Dormammu has absolutely no reason to not Chaotic Flame the hyper. Morrigan is also not able to protect Dr. Doom after the second Soul Fist into unfly. Even if she air dashed into j.S, Dormammu would pushblock it, and then Chaotic Flame.

I think this is the general case people would run into. Hidden Missiles has no screen presence when it is called, and this makes it different from every other offensive assist in the game. To keep that feature while also making the missiles disappear on hit makes them virtually indefensible except by characters who teleport a lot. And even these characters would have a lot of trouble keeping the assist safe.

Hidden Missiles should work a lot like Dormammu's Liberation attacks. They should have a strong screen presence, but this strength should be a result of having to earn the attack's presence. To keep with this analogy, making Hidden Missiles disappear on hit would be a lot like Dormammu's Vanilla Liberations. 2D1C and 1D2C had huge hit ranges and did a ton of damage, but they had a legitimate startup time. For this reason, no Dormammu player ever used anything but 3D0C, because losing the startup time at close/mid range, where 2D1C and 1D2C are most effective, was just too risky. Making Hidden Missiles disappear on hit would put that assist in roughly the same place Dormammu was. Right now, Dormammu's Liberations are very well balanced (except 0D3C, which sucks) for the work they take to earn. The problem with Hidden Missiles is that it's a little too easy to earn for what it gives.

I think the adjustments to Hidden Missiles should be slight, not major. This is especially important when you consider that, before Hidden Missiles, keepaway teams were non-existent in Marvel 3. The game was a pure rushdown fest. If you nerf Hidden Missiles too much, you will go back to seeing nothing but Wesker and Wolverine on the screen. Hidden Missiles keeps these characters in check. Hell, Hidden Missiles is the only thing keeping Zero from demolishing the entire cast right now.

Keep in mind that I'm not a Hidden Missiles user, and I loathe the assist. I just don't like to see things get nerfed so bad that they're no longer worth using.

For some reason, I thought that you couldn't destroy the missiles. I don't know where I heard that, but I don't play teams that can do that readily, so I never contested it. Good to know! So, ignoring all other things, if I Jam Session after Hidden MIssiles is called, would it neutralize the missiles? I could swear that I've been hit trying to do that, but I could definitely be wrong there.

I don't know about Jam Session, but you can destroy the missiles. They only have 1 durability each. I've killed them with Purification a few times, Thor can destroy them by using Mighty Spark, and Trish's Maximum Voltage will eat them at certain angles.

Yeah, 1.5 seconds is a bit much for sure. Unless it's SFxT seconds. And yes, I think the missile count reduced by 2 would make a huge difference without sacrificing the utility of the assist.

Indeed. Maybe even reducing it by 3. It shouldn't be good for lockdown.

I'm not sure that Morrigan is only viable with Hidden Missiles. It's certainly her best option, but I think that there are alternatives that work. They won't be the catch-all that a Morrigan player ideally wants, but I don't think that renders were unable to compete.

I challenge you to use her without Hidden Missiles for a month. I think your opinion will change. The only other assist that makes Morrigan playable (but not great still) is Vajra. And this isn't entirely about the anti-air properties. Morrigan's biggest weakness is cross-unders. Her entire game is qcf/qcb motions. The true value of Hidden Missiles for Morrigan is that they appear right behind her, making her immune to cross-unders from teleporters. Play Morrigan without Hidden Missiles against a good Strider, Dante, or Wesker, and I promise you that you will rage. She just floats in the sky doing nothing when the opponent does it properly.

I guess I'm just not seeing the anti-air options for many characters (anti-air being anti-superjump/flight). I'm sure there are some, but I don't know if any would match the multi-purpose utility of Hidden Missiles.

A few really obvious AA assists that aren't utilized:
Magneto Gravitation
Nova Energy Javelin
Dr. Strange Dagger of Denak (L)
Phoenix Trap L
Dr. Doom Photon Shot
Storm Typhoon (just make it reach a little higher and give it tracking)
Super Skrull Meteor Smash (tracking)
Dormammu Purification (tracking)
Phoenix Wright evidence usage
Viewtiful Joe Voomerang (charged)
Arthur Crossbow (Gold Armor esp.)

I see a lot of choices. Several require slight modifications, but that doesn't change the fact that they're staring Capcom right in the face.

 

[GuardianE]

you should as I've seen many times Magneto players using lvl super to clear out missles.

Morrigan without hidden missles allows too many characters to get away and waste most of her bar.

It simply changes the way Morrigan has to be played.

And quite frankly, I don't see what's wrong with there being some bad matchups here. Many of the best characters in the game (aside from three or so) have some terrible matchups. That doesn't render her useless. It means that you have to change the pace of your own game.

And I'm speaking as someone who loves seeing ChrisG play. Hidden Missiles is what makes particular matchups close to impossible. It can be replaced.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Why is Gram assist for Strider not considered really good? Seems decently fast, Strider appears behind your character, lots of range, doesn't scale combos...what am I missing?

Trades with projectiles and Strider has no life.

 

[EasyMode]

if I Jam Session after Hidden MIssiles is called, would it neutralize the missiles? I could swear that I've been hit trying to do that, but I could definitely be wrong there.

I remember trying this with Jam Session assist and it would only destroy about 4 of the 6 missles. I also noticed that if I called Jam Session too early, the missiles would fly right over it. They're so hidden!

 

[GuardianE]

I remember trying this with Jam Session assist and it would only destroy about 4 of the 6 missles. I also noticed that if I called Jam Session too early, the missiles would fly right over it. They're so hidden!

That's probably part of why I hate them so much.

I wonder how Acid Rain would do. But ultimately, it's pointless anyway. Dante's going to just get bopped trying to do something like that.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Better to just teleport as they fall.

Or burrow :3

 

[JeTmAn81]

Hidden Missiles can be rendered much less effective by simply learning their tracking speed and jumping out of their trajectory. Plus, you can't eat high/low mixups in the air. Of course this only works if they aren't playing Morrigan as well.

 

[GuardianE]

I challenge you to use her without Hidden Missiles for a month. I think your opinion will change. The only other assist that makes Morrigan playable (but not great still) is Vajra. And this isn't entirely about the anti-air properties. Morrigan's biggest weakness is cross-unders. Her entire game is qcf/qcb motions. The true value of Hidden Missiles for Morrigan is that they appear right behind her, making her immune to cross-unders from teleporters. Play Morrigan without Hidden Missiles against a good Strider, Dante, or Wesker, and I promise you that you will rage. She just floats in the sky doing nothing when the opponent does it properly.

Wouldn't Jam Session fulfill the function of being anti-cross under if Morrigan advances? Or Eye of Agamatto? Can she not anticipate the teleport and air dash back + Shellkick or j.H, or parabola airdash out of the way? I'm certainly not implying it's easy, or really that close to Doom missiles. Doom takes care of the holes in her defense like nothing else. I'm just trying to see if she's still playable at a high level with adjustments.

I've actually never played Doom missiles in my life, except to troll or in random select. I don't really like Doom as a character, and I only play characters that I really like, for the most part. That said, I also play some very unoptimized teams as a result as well, but I like finding ways of making teams work.

 

[Karsticles]

Wouldn't Jam Session fulfill the function of being anti-cross under if Morrigan advances? Or Eye of Agamatto? Can she not anticipate the teleport and air dash back + Shellkick or j.H, or parabola airdash out of the way? I'm certainly not implying it's easy, or really that close to Doom missiles. Doom takes care of the holes in her defense like nothing else. I'm just trying to see if she's still playable at a high level with adjustments.

I've actually never played Doom missiles in my life, except to troll or in random select. I don't really like Doom as a character, and I only play characters that I really like, for the most part. That said, I also play some very unoptimized teams as a result as well, but I like finding ways of making teams work.

Jam Session doesn't work because the opponent will often teleport behind Morrigan as she jumps for the initial fireball. Hidden Missiles works because it is always either protecting her rear or hailing missiles on the opponent, so she is almost always protected from teleports. Jam Session is only there briefly.

Eye of Agamotto is a trash assist aside from lockdown.

You definitely cannot react/predict the teleports, because you need to be throwing Soul Fist out like crazy in her neutral to keep her in the game. She can't just air dash in and attack, it's really unsafe. Watch ChrisG play - he still gets crossed up and flounders in the air even with Hidden Missiles on the team. It's usually what opens him up (and is why Wolverine is ChrisG's greatest threat right now, since it's basically a teleport attack).

Anyone can make a team work online. I'm talking about high level play. Pick Morrigan without Hidden Missiles for a bit and you'll see what I'm talking about. Play against someone here who is good with Dante, Vergil, Strider, or Wesker and feel how helpless she is. She was considered bottom 5 in Vanilla for a reason: Hidden Missiles wasn't powerful in that meta.

 

[GuardianE]

Jam Session doesn't work because the opponent will often teleport behind Morrigan as she jumps for the initial fireball. Hidden Missiles works because it is always either protecting her rear or hailing missiles on the opponent, so she is almost always protected from teleports. Jam Session is only there briefly.

Eye of Agamotto is a trash assist aside from lockdown.

You definitely cannot react/predict the teleports, because you need to be throwing Soul Fist out like crazy in her neutral to keep her in the game. She can't just air dash in and attack, it's really unsafe. Watch ChrisG play - he still gets crossed up and flounders in the air even with Hidden Missiles on the team. It's usually what opens him up (and is why Wolverine is ChrisG's greatest threat right now, since it's basically a teleport attack).

Anyone can make a team work online. I'm talking about high level play. Pick Morrigan without Hidden Missiles for a bit and you'll see what I'm talking about. Play against someone here who is good with Dante, Vergil, Strider, or Wesker and feel how helpless she is. She was considered bottom 5 in Vanilla for a reason: Hidden Missiles wasn't powerful in that meta.

Point taken about the assists.

I love watching ChrisG play. You know this already, but ChrisG isn't just throwing SoulFist crazy, he's watching the approach and adjusts accordingly. He resets his positioning and creates ideal scenarios for himself. The moment something goes wrong, he changes his gameplan and adapts to the flow and movement of his opponent. That's what's so fascinating about watching his matches. There's no question that it's the left/right mixup that Morrigan has to deal with because a high/low, or aerial approach simply doesn't work. When he falls, he falls to left/right mixups, but it's not as though that's an uncommon issue for other characters in this game. Chris waits until it's safe before SoulFisting. Sometimes that safety is created by Hidden Missiles, and sometimes not.

Morrigan can't airdash in and attack whenever she wants because she has to cover herself and her air movement is predictable, but I wouldn't say it's unsafe. Her Shellkick will beat airthrow attempts clean. Also, ChrisG definitely uses Shellkick and j.H as a defensive tool off of back airdash as well. It almost seems like you want her to have a foolproof answer for every scenario, but I don't think that's necessary or even ideal. There are plenty of viable characters at a high level that don't have that luxury.

With Missiles gone, would she be considered a top 5 character like people have been listing? Heck no. But that's not a condition for being tournament viable to me.

As for Vanilla Morrigan vs. Ultimate Morrigan, they also sped up her flight canceling, increased Soul Fist damage, and gave her increased priority on jumping attacks. I think that actually went a long way in helping her game.

 

[Karsticles]

Point taken about the assists.

I love watching ChrisG play. You know this already, but ChrisG isn't just throwing SoulFist crazy, he's watching the approach and adjusts accordingly. He resets his positioning and creates ideal scenarios for himself. The moment something goes wrong, he changes his gameplan and adapts to the flow and movement of his opponent. That's what's so fascinating about watching his matches. There's no question that it's the left/right mixup that Morrigan has to deal with because a high/low, or aerial approach simply doesn't work. When he falls, he falls to left/right mixups, but it's not as though that's an uncommon issue for other characters in this game. Chris waits until it's safe before SoulFisting. Sometimes that safety is created by Hidden Missiles, and sometimes not.

It's always the other way around. Soul Fist makes Hidden Missiles safe. I'm not saying ChrisG spams Soul Fist, but it's 50% of her neutral game, roughly.

Morrigan can't airdash in and attack whenever she wants because she has to cover herself and her air movement is predictable, but I wouldn't say it's unsafe. Her Shellkick will beat airthrow attempts clean. Also, ChrisG definitely uses Shellkick and j.H as a defensive tool off of back airdash as well. It almost seems like you want her to have a foolproof answer for every scenario, but I don't think that's necessary or even ideal. There are plenty of viable characters at a high level that don't have that luxury.

It's unsafe if the opponent is good in a lot of matchups. Most people suck at anti-airing, though. Which is why they think Dormammu has good rushdown (which is sad).

I'm not saying that you can't use j.H and j.S defensively - they're great defensive moves. I'm saying that she can't survive against teleporters with them. This isn't about a character having an easy answer to every scenario, it's about the character having any answer to a very common scenario.

With Missiles gone, would she be considered a top 5 character like people have been listing? Heck no. But that's not a condition for being tournament viable to me.

She wouldn't even be used. She was garbage in Vanilla, and only true Morrigan fans used her out of a sense of dedication.

As for Vanilla Morrigan vs. Ultimate Morrigan, they also sped up her flight canceling, increased Soul Fist damage, and gave her increased priority on jumping attacks. I think that actually went a long way in helping her game.

It's all very minor. I've been a Morrigan player throughout half of Vanilla's life and 3/4 of Ultimate's. These are great changes, but they would not have moved her tier position one inch if not for the meta change that made Hidden Missiles so good. Also, her flight canceling did not change, her flight startup did. Big difference.

Again, I encourage you to use the character for a while if you think I am wrong. I am certain that your mind will change.

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

Play against someone here who is good with Dante, Vergil, Strider, or Wesker and feel how helpless she is..

Whoa son. Morrigan destroys Wesker. You must be talking some God Tier Wesker play.

 

[JeTmAn81]

Whoa son. Morrigan destroys Wesker. You must be talking some God Tier Wesker play.

He probably means Wesker with Strider. I am not afraid of Morrigan without missiles when I play my Wesker/Dante/Strider team.

 

[GuardianE]

Again, I encourage you to use the character for a while if you think I am wrong. I am certain that your mind will change.

I've used Morrigan since day one Vanilla. She's on my main team, even though I'm embarrassingly not that good with her. I'm sure you're a better Morrigan than I am,. Mine is beyond scrubby. But I still feel like she was underrated in Vanilla.

You're right, though. Her tournament life would drop off, but even now, she's not that common of a character across all competitive teams, despite her being labeled as an S tier character by some strong players. Xian, Nerdjosh, J Rosa, Diemininon, and ChrisG. Considering her reputation, that's not a lot of players.

He probably means Wesker with Strider. I am not afraid of Morrigan without missiles when I play my Wesker/Dante/Strider team.

Vajra in general is a pretty good answer to Morrigan. I think Karst is specifically referring to being able to get behind Morrigan quickly and punish without her having Hidden Missiles available, and screw up her inputs at the same time.

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

Oh yea I must have misread it. Wesker and Vajra could take down Morrigan.

 

[kick51]

Made a lot of progress today. Took out the regular sanwa stick with ball top and put in a silent sanwa with a bat top...it's like night and day! People say the silent stuff feels "mushy" but it feels smooth to me. The bat top was a huge improvement as well, easier on the hands, easier to feel where it's at. I'm nowhere near up to where I was on pad, but getting there and not getting man-handled by the lowest PSN trash anymore like I was yesterday.

 

["God's Beard!"]

.

 

[Karsticles]

Whoa son. Morrigan destroys Wesker. You must be talking some God Tier Wesker play.

He probably means Wesker with Strider. I am not afraid of Morrigan without missiles when I play my Wesker/Dante/Strider team.

Yeah, I'm assuming proper team composition. IMO, Wesker's best assist is Vajra, followed by EMD.

Wesker also has good options against Morrigan 1v1 imo.

I've used Morrigan since day one Vanilla. She's on my main team, even though I'm embarrassingly not that good with her. I'm sure you're a better Morrigan than I am,. Mine is beyond scrubby. But I still feel like she was underrated in Vanilla.

She was underrated in Vanilla. No way was she bottom 5 like a lot of people thought, but she wasn't good, either. I anchored her for a long time, and made a lot of comebacks. It really wasn't until Ultimate, when Vajra came around, that I said "I can't do this anymore", and dropped her (~2 months ago).

What's your main team?

You're right, though. Her tournament life would drop off, but even now, she's not that common of a character across all competitive teams, despite her being labeled as an S tier character by some strong players. Xian, Nerdjosh, J Rosa, Diemininon, and ChrisG. Considering her reputation, that's not a lot of players.

She takes a ton of work. A lot of people have told me that their hands get tired after a few matches from all the fireball motions. I can do it all day without getting tired. Like C. Viper, she takes a special kind of person to play. I still like to play Morrigan on my alt team. She's a blast.

Vajra in general is a pretty good answer to Morrigan. I think Karst is specifically referring to being able to get behind Morrigan quickly and punish without her having Hidden Missiles available, and screw up her inputs at the same time.

Indeed, and Hidden Missiles also shuts down Vajra, thankfully.

Made a lot of progress today. Took out the regular sanwa stick with ball top and put in a silent sanwa with a bat top...it's like night and day! People say the silent stuff feels "mushy" but it feels smooth to me. The bat top was a huge improvement as well, easier on the hands, easier to feel where it's at. I'm nowhere near up to where I was on pad, but getting there and not getting man-handled by the lowest PSN trash anymore like I was yesterday.

I felt the same way. I loved my bat top the day I put it on, and I'll never play without it. Unfortunately, it also means that if your stick dies, it's hard to find one to borrow at a tournament.

 

[kick51]

I realized that that's what arcades had back when I played on them-- bat tops, octagonal restrictors. I've struggled to get into stick, so maybe I need to go back to that completely.

Have any of you guys messed around with circle or octagonal restrictors for this game? I added them to my order since they were only a buck a piece. Figure I may as well give them a try as well.

After Evo that is. 12 hours of Marvel today. My body is ready.

 

[Karsticles]

I have to resist the temptation to argue with the Evo thread stream monsters about whether Marvel is random.

I realized that that's what arcades had back when I played on them-- bat tops, octagonal restrictors. I've struggled to get into stick, so maybe I need to go back to that completely.

Have any of you guys messed around with circle or octagonal restrictors for this game? I added them to my order since they were only a buck a piece. Figure I may as well give them a try as well.

After Evo that is. 12 hours of Marvel today. My body is ready.

I haven't messed with them, but I have thought about it. I can't see how they would help me. My DP inputs rely on me smashing the stick into the corner.

 

[Dahbomb]

Two things still make MVC3 random.

TACs and Vergil air hyper crossing you up, leading into hard knock down, XF, kill combo, mix up rest of team and win game.

Those two Zero/Vergil players got a shit ton of mileage out of that last one. That was really fraudulence at its maximum.

 

[Karsticles]

Reposting from the Evo thread for the people who actually play the game:
Personally, if Marvel got a real update, these are the changes I would need to see to fix the game entirely:
1) Ground throw techs create slightly more space; techable throw time increased by 5 frames.
2) TACs are non-breakable, no meter gain/loss when used, usable at any point in a combo, no HSD reset (basically, make it another combo option for teams).
3) X-Factor now costs 1 bar, no limit on uses, only provides the cancel effect.
4) All characters given 3 good assists (or custom assists a la Skullgirls).
5) Damage reduced by roughly 1/2 to 1/3 across the board (chip damage buffed to 50% or so to ensure keepaway is still viable).
6) All characters either gain a permanent buff when they are the last character on a team or have a solo assist call option (I've discussed these before at length; they are better than X-Factor on principle).

That would make for the perfect Marvel game, to me.

Two things still make MVC3 random.

TACs and Vergil air hyper crossing you up, leading into hard knock down, XF, kill combo, mix up rest of team and win game.

Those two Zero/Vergil players got a shit ton of mileage out of that last one. That was really fraudulence at its maximum.

Have you seen FChamp's video on beating Vergil? He showed some seriously sick counters to random Dimension Slash:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48c2w-4XH5k

Who knew you could just air throw it on reaction from mid-screen?

I don't disagree that it shouldn't cross up, and that TACs should be fixed, though.

 

[Dahbomb]

I have seen that video and I already knew about all those "counters". I dare you to go into a high stakes match and try to grab a Vergil sitting on XF3 out of his hyper. Snap back only works when you are grounded, most Vergils like to throw out the hyper when the other guy is in mid air. The best counter is to meaty Vergil on incoming, same way to not let him get started with a Helm Breaker.

Vergil happens to be a character that abuses 3 exploits in the game. The Phantom Dance/Dimension Slash hyper cross up, Round Trip glitch and buff stacking exploit. Without even nerfing the character directly you make him much more fair by fixing those 3 system problems although obviously he needs more normalization than that.

Also discussion is now open on potential balance change suggestions. As per Ono's tweet since apparently he loves hearing about that stuff.

 

["God's Beard!"]

TACs aren't random. You can react and break them if you know how. That's why PR Rog has way more TAC breaks than other players.

 

[Dahbomb]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";70350126]TACs aren't random. You can react and break them if you know how. That's why PR Rog has way more TAC breaks than other players.[/QUOTE]
Please tell me how to react to TACs. Maybe I just have bad reflexes or something.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Please tell me how to react to TACs. Maybe I just have bad reflexes or something.

It's a secret, I'll pm you.

 

[Dahbomb]

Well this certianly changes everything. TACs NOT random confirmed!

 

[FSLink]

Maybe it's just because it's EVO season but I can't tell if you guys are joking or there's legitimately new tech.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Maybe it's just because it's EVO season but I can't tell if you guys are joking or there's legitimately new tech.

The truth is right in front of your eyes.

 

[FSLink]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";70354986]The truth is right in front of your eyes.[/QUOTE]

The dream is dead.

 

[Dahbomb]

I heard Viscant talking about this secret tech he discovered about TACs. Now I am a believer.

 

[kick51]

So...

Yipes says something like "the game is 10% figured out" on stream all the time

I've seen other people argue that so many people play and communicate and upload tech nowadays that the game is mostly mapped out.

What do you guys think about that? I have no idea myself...it seems like admitting the latter is saying that some Zero/?/Vergil team is gonna be the end game. But the former doesn't quite seem right either.

 

[rocK`]

What is this secret you all speak of (outside of mapping color to direction)

 

[Karsticles]

So...

Yipes says something like "the game is 10% figured out" on stream all the time

I've seen other people argue that so many people play and communicate and upload tech nowadays that the game is mostly mapped out.

What do you guys think about that? I have no idea myself...it seems like admitting the latter is saying that some Zero/?/Vergil team is gonna be the end game. But the former doesn't quite seem right either.

10% seems a bit low, but I'd agree with maybe 30%.

The fact is that there are the "5 gods", and the reason they are called that is because they are leagues above everyone else. ChrisG, as the one true god, is leagues above the others. Until a lot more people start playing at a very high level, we don't know a lot about the game. All you have to do is remember that Morrigan was garbage until ChrisG mastered her. I've still never seen a proper Thor team, a good Arthur, a noteworthy Chun-li, etc. Heck, there are a million and one Dante players, but only 4-5 are even worth looking at. The game is hard, and a lot of people pick Wolverine/Doom/Vergil not because it's the best, but because it's the easiest to win with. A lot of players are bad and lazy, but instead of trying to improve, they just pick what lets them get by. That's what leads to FotM tier lists and team compositions popping up everywhere.

 

[Dahbomb]

I don't know about 10% figured out but we are getting very close to end game state. It will probably never be MVC2 level but its going to come close... then again some people claim that MVC2 wasn't figured out in 10 years. UMVC3 is on its 3rd EVO and in the dark ages of EVO that would be equivalent to 6-7 years on the roster due to the rate at which information travels.

Obviously there is hidden stuff in the game or stuff that is known by some specialists but not by the main player base. I think Deadpool is underrated and underused, only SexyBeast REALLY uses Deadpool... he made FChamp hate the character. Deadpool does well against a big portion of the cast including top tiers. I think Frank West with Jam Session is Zero tier but no top American player has figured out a great team with someone to take point on that duo. Obviously Viper and Strider while used a lot in the tourney and made some upsets are still not quite there. I also think that if there were more good Joe players in US there would be way less Wolverines in top 8.

Its just a matter of who picks who. I think some characters are just really bad in the competitive meta (like Ryu who really builds nothing to the table on a team) but quite a few good characters are not being represented well. I mean if Storm Akuma can get top 8 EVO 3 times in a row you sure as hell can get a Deadpool, a Spider Man, a Felicia or Chris in top 8.

I just think a character like Zero destroys so many Mid tiers that it makes it extra hard on them. The characters who don't get destroyed by Zero will probably get destroyed by Vergil and Wolverine. And then some characters can't do shit against Morrigan or even Hawkeye/Dormammu then some of the really bad characters can't do shit against Doom even. If these characters weren't hard enough they are usually being protected by stuff like Jam Session, Missiles, Plasma Beam which makes it even harder to touch them. Like I don't see an optimized Thor team beating all of the top tiers consistently. I don't see an optimized Chun Li team beating that. Why optimize for these characters when you can optimize for a top tier and get into top 8 EVO?

A character like Felicia can't shine when you have to face multiple Zero players in pools. I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with Felicia but Zero is just too good against these types of characters. Then a few characters in the cast have archetype syndrome. I don't think in the competitive meta it is wise to pick Phoenix over a Vergil or Strider if you want a pure anchor character. I think picking some low tier character with a top assist (like say Shuma) would at times be better than picking Phoenix. I don't think Iron Man or Storm are that bad at all but character archetype makes them look much worse in comparison (Magneto and Doom both shit on IM in terms of what both of them bring to the table). Firebrand is a similar case, he is like a Zero but worse and is only compensated by an unblockable set up. Wolverine trumps characters like Felicia/Jill/X23 in terms of having easier to apply tools and less chance of messing up stuff. Then there are a few characters who are rare simply because they have extremely limited support capability. Spider Man, Skrull, Joe, She Hulk, Tron.. these types of characters come to mind. The last two are admittedly bad but the first three are legitimate characters but hard to put on a team unless you want unblockables with Skrull assist or guard break set ups with Spider Man.

After tonight's EVO matches I will be doing a fairly substantial post about tiers and patch/balance change talk.

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

Reposting from the Evo thread for the people who actually play the game:
Personally, if Marvel got a real update, these are the changes I would need to see to fix the game entirely:
1) Ground throw techs create slightly more space; techable throw time increased by 5 frames.

Okay sounds good

2) TACs are non-breakable, no meter gain/loss when used, usable at any point in a combo, no HSD reset (basically, make it another combo option for teams)..

Sounds great

3) X-Factor now costs 1 bar, no limit on uses, only provides the cancel effect.

No way. This would make combo's at of every hit confirm and combo's would last forever. So basically every character in the game with at least two bars could 1 hit kill a character as the game is now. If we take your half damage into account then combo's would certainly last forever killing the pacing and fun factor the game currently has. The game would turn into a heavy defensive game because everybody would be afraid of guard cancels into X-Factor. Who ever got the first hit in would have the meter lead and a huge advantage with multiple X-Factors.

4) All characters given 3 good assists (or custom assists a la Skullgirls).

This would be nice but I feel Capcom would have to rework the game in order to accomplish a custom assist type. Plus if you could use any move as an assist people would be complaining way more than hidden missiles. I think only a few characters need some assist changes, for the most part they are nice. I guess you want every character to be viable at every spot on the team? As nice as this sounds it's impossable. Some characters are built around their position. Phoenix will never be a better point character over anchor.

5) Damage reduced by roughly 1/2 to 1/3 across the board (chip damage buffed to 50% or so to ensure keepaway is still viable).

Okay sure, I agree damage is a tad high as it is, but 1/2 sounds a little too low 1/3 sounds better. Any lower and every match will end in time ups. Also chip can be buffed to 25%. 50% more sounds like to much.

6) All characters either gain a permanent buff when they are the last character on a team or have a solo assist call option (I've discussed these before at length; they are better than X-Factor on principle).[/QUOTE]

So you want another comeback mechanic? I think it's only fair the last character be crippled in a team game. I know it's hard to win a game when's it's 1 vs 3 but it should be. I guess if the damage was nerfed I could see where your coming from because it would take a lot to come back from. It's a tricky slope. How do you buff a last standing character enough to give him a chance but not make the opposing team mad that they lost to a comeback mechanic.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Hawkeye/Vergil/Magneto is the best

 

[Dahbomb]

I think of the system changes Karst suggested I like the throw tech change, I like the TAC change (any change to TAC is a 100% improvement over current TAC), I like the assist change and I like damage reduction. Although assist change doesn't really qualify as a system change I think.

I think damage reduction AFTER making character specific changes to damage is the way to go. Like let's say we are going for a 33% damage reduction, that means (for the sake of argument) that a regular character will have around 1, 333K health or 1, 200K because most characters have 900K health average in the game. A character like Spencer or Zero can still TOD an average health character even after damage reduction. Most characters in the game will not be able to TOD when previously they could which means that the tiers become further apart and characters who can do big damage are now more valuable.

The X factor change is not something I can get behind, it's too drastic and is more suitable for a MVC4.

 

[Dahbomb]

I know this is a double post but I wanted to separate it from the previous thread.

Here are my suggestions for system changes.

*Damage reduction by 1/3rd AFTER specific character damage changes. Chip damage slightly rescaled. Will do more damage on specials but LESS damage on normals. This is mostly because when I do my character specific stuff, characters like Sentinel and Ghost Rider will have chip on some of their normals and I have to rescale the chip value for normals because they would become too good with it otherwise (like Frank West is now, this also nerfs LVL4/5 Frank a bit and that is intentional). To counter the damage reduction, time is slightly increased... around 1/4th to 1/3rd more overall time to the round to avoid time outs.

*Mashable hyper damage reduced to Vanilla levels or somewhere in between Vanilla and Ultimate. Stuff like Fatal Claw, Hailstorm do way too much damage for 1 bar even at max scaling. This needs to be done on a case by case basis though because some characters don't need a reduction as much as others. If I had it my way I would reverse the mashing requirement altogether.

*TAC system fixed. 20 frame window to counter a TAC that is highlighted by the required TAC. After a successful TAC counter the color of the TAC is shown (this should already be in the game though). HSD starts at 0 after TACs and builds back up to normal in air. Will still keep some characters useful in terms of TAC combos like Iron Man, MODOK, Doom but not give them ridiculous combos. Also TACs are now more like a true mix up in that you can actually react to them like throws in Tekken. 20 frames is just about what a normal human being can react to. This will generally make TACs less desirable than resets except when you desperately need to switch out a character after getting a hit. Also you are allowed unlimited chances to break TACs, no more TAC glitching someone into a guaranteed combo.

*Throw tech window increased, more space after tech and you cannot be grabbed during tech recovery. That last one is very very specific but a character like Wolverine when in Berserker Charge + XF recovers so fast they he can throw you again while you are still tech recovering. Also you cannot option select a down + forward/back move with throws, this is mostly a nerf to characters like Wolverine/Vergil and air dashers who like to OS throws with diagonal dashes. You can still OS back and forward moves.


*Assist characters take less damage than before (still more than the point character). Damage scaling applies to them like normal characters in ALL situations. Assist characters go back out of the game after being comboed faster, less time to continuously OTG loop them. Cannot call assists a certain time after throw techs (it's a short window of cool down, this is mostly to prevent throw + assist option selects), cannot call assists at super jump height when a combo is dropped/reset is attempted and cannot call assists during tech roll. Finally if a point character is being comboed and an assist is called right before it, the assist character is completely disabled and cannot be hit nor does the assist comes out... this is pretty much MVC2 style and it prevents assists having "combo breaking" properties while still having some legitimate GTFO assists.

Most of these assist changes are to prevent certain abuses or scrubby play. I don't think I have to justify why being allowed to call an assist after super jump height after being reset is a bad idea.


*Cannot mash Light chains on whiff. Can only do it on block or hit.

*HSD timer goes to full scaling faster. What this means is that certain characters like Doom and Magneto who just repeat a few loops over and over again until they reach max HSD will now have to do fewer loops (so if Doom can get like 4 relaunches he will now only get 3). This will definitely reduce some of the lengthier combos in the game.

*XF2 and XF3 values decreased. New XF3 value is what XF2 value is now and new XF2 value is essentially current XF1.5 value. Current XF3 is active far too long and gives too much boost, in most cases it's the superior XF to choose unless your team is extremely point heavy.

*Incoming character falling arc adjusted so it's more vertical and less horizontal.. making it easier to block/react to cross up attempts. No more guard break set ups can be applied to an incoming character until that character has touched the ground or has done some action. Incoming characters need more help than this but it's hard to come up with something because if you give too much then you are giving a character like Vergil or Strider more chance to make a comeback.

 

[Karsticles]

I think of the system changes Karst suggested I like the throw tech change, I like the TAC change (any change to TAC is a 100% improvement over current TAC), I like the assist change and I like damage reduction. Although assist change doesn't really qualify as a system change I think.

I think damage reduction AFTER making character specific changes to damage is the way to go. Like let's say we are going for a 33% damage reduction, that means (for the sake of argument) that a regular character will have around 1, 333K health or 1, 200K because most characters have 900K health average in the game. A character like Spencer or Zero can still TOD an average health character even after damage reduction. Most characters in the game will not be able to TOD when previously they could which means that the tiers become further apart and characters who can do big damage are now more valuable.

The X factor change is not something I can get behind, it's too drastic and is more suitable for a MVC4.

I assume that the super high TOD stuff like Spencer up grapple will get fixed/changed.

I don't know about 10% figured out but we are getting very close to end game state. It will probably never be MVC2 level but its going to come close... then again some people claim that MVC2 wasn't figured out in 10 years. UMVC3 is on its 3rd EVO and in the dark ages of EVO that would be equivalent to 6-7 years on the roster due to the rate at which information travels.

Obviously there is hidden stuff in the game or stuff that is known by some specialists but not by the main player base. I think Deadpool is underrated and underused, only SexyBeast REALLY uses Deadpool... he made FChamp hate the character. Deadpool does well against a big portion of the cast including top tiers. I think Frank West with Jam Session is Zero tier but no top American player has figured out a great team with someone to take point on that duo. Obviously Viper and Strider while used a lot in the tourney and made some upsets are still not quite there. I also think that if there were more good Joe players in US there would be way less Wolverines in top 8.

Its just a matter of who picks who. I think some characters are just really bad in the competitive meta (like Ryu who really builds nothing to the table on a team) but quite a few good characters are not being represented well. I mean if Storm Akuma can get top 8 EVO 3 times in a row you sure as hell can get a Deadpool, a Spider Man, a Felicia or Chris in top 8.

I just think a character like Zero destroys so many Mid tiers that it makes it extra hard on them. The characters who don't get destroyed by Zero will probably get destroyed by Vergil and Wolverine. And then some characters can't do shit against Morrigan or even Hawkeye/Dormammu then some of the really bad characters can't do shit against Doom even. If these characters weren't hard enough they are usually being protected by stuff like Jam Session, Missiles, Plasma Beam which makes it even harder to touch them. Like I don't see an optimized Thor team beating all of the top tiers consistently. I don't see an optimized Chun Li team beating that. Why optimize for these characters when you can optimize for a top tier and get into top 8 EVO?

A character like Felicia can't shine when you have to face multiple Zero players in pools. I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with Felicia but Zero is just too good against these types of characters. Then a few characters in the cast have archetype syndrome. I don't think in the competitive meta it is wise to pick Phoenix over a Vergil or Strider if you want a pure anchor character. I think picking some low tier character with a top assist (like say Shuma) would at times be better than picking Phoenix. I don't think Iron Man or Storm are that bad at all but character archetype makes them look much worse in comparison (Magneto and Doom both shit on IM in terms of what both of them bring to the table). Firebrand is a similar case, he is like a Zero but worse and is only compensated by an unblockable set up. Wolverine trumps characters like Felicia/Jill/X23 in terms of having easier to apply tools and less chance of messing up stuff. Then there are a few characters who are rare simply because they have extremely limited support capability. Spider Man, Skrull, Joe, She Hulk, Tron.. these types of characters come to mind. The last two are admittedly bad but the first three are legitimate characters but hard to put on a team unless you want unblockables with Skrull assist or guard break set ups with Spider Man.

After tonight's EVO matches I will be doing a fairly substantial post about tiers and patch/balance change talk.

Good stuff.

No way. This would make combo's at of every hit confirm and combo's would last forever. So basically every character in the game with at least two bars could 1 hit kill a character as the game is now. If we take your half damage into account then combo's would certainly last forever killing the pacing and fun factor the game currently has. The game would turn into a heavy defensive game because everybody would be afraid of guard cancels into X-Factor. Who ever got the first hit in would have the meter lead and a huge advantage with multiple X-Factors.

You're still spending a bar to make the combo happen; it basically gives a lot of characters a kind of Berserker Charge option. I don't see how you think combos would last forever - just because you are canceling doesn't mean you are resetting HSD. It's not worthwhile for Dormammu to spend 5 bars to link 6 Dark Holes.

There are a lot of save approaches when considering XFCs. This would cut down on dumb stuff like Wolverine's dive kick and Zero's endless pressure, that's all. People would have to make safer, more thoughtful approaches. Plus, you can always just XFC in response to an XFC - that's what usually happens in high level play.

This would be nice but I feel Capcom would have to rework the game in order to accomplish a custom assist type. Plus if you could use any move as an assist people would be complaining way more than hidden missiles. I think only a few characters need some assist changes, for the most part they are nice. I guess you want every character to be viable at every spot on the team? As nice as this sounds it's impossable. Some characters are built around their position. Phoenix will never be a better point character over anchor.

There is nothing worse as an assist in this game than Hidden Missiles. There are only a handful of good assists in this game, and most of those characters are bad on point. It's why there are so many Vergil, Magneto, Dante, and Doom users. They are all good on point and have good assists.

Every character having the potential to be good on point and as an assist is not impossible - Skullgirls does it just fine. Phoenix can easily be made into a good point character - I used her on point for most of Vanilla. With the X-Factor nerf, she deserves health around Strider's level, probably. Dark Phoenix is not very scary outside of XF2/3.

Okay sure, I agree damage is a tad high as it is, but 1/2 sounds a little too low 1/3 sounds better. Any lower and every match will end in time ups. Also chip can be buffed to 25%. 50% more sounds like to much.

50% buff after the 50% to 66% damage nerf. Just bringing it back up to its current effective level.

Timer stuff can be messed with. King of Fighters gives people 3 60 second rounds, and it's fine. Give Marvel a 150 second timer, and then make it 2/3 at tournaments again since it's no longer a snowball game. No big deal.

So you want another comeback mechanic? I think it's only fair the last character be crippled in a team game. I know it's hard to win a game when's it's 1 vs 3 but it should be. I guess if the damage was nerfed I could see where your coming from because it would take a lot to come back from. It's a tricky slope. How do you buff a last standing character enough to give him a chance but not make the opposing team mad that they lost to a comeback mechanic.

The last character should be as strong as though he had a full team behind him in some fashion. Otherwise the game becomes snowball-based like it is now and it is in Skullgirls and MvC2.

It's not a comeback mechanic, it's just a way to ensure that losing a character isn't significantly more than losing 1/3 of your life. Think about situations like Dr. Doom vs. Dormammu + AA assist. I want to prevent those kind of one-sided situations, which are boring for everyone.

There are two simple solutions to this problem:
1) Each character receives a unique "form" buff when alone. Dormammu's true power is unlocked, allowing him to cancel Dark Hole and Purifcation into one another, Wolverine gains health regeneration and permanent Berserker Charge, etc. Stuff like that. This would take a lot of work and be hard to balance, though. The less cool but easier option would be...

2) Each character has a solo mode assist that he/she can call. For example, Viewtiful Joe could call Sylvia to fire her gun behind him. This gives the character assist support so they still stand a chance in the neutral. Each character's assist would be tailored to that character's playstyle. Phoenix Wright could call Apollo Justice to do something to protect him, Haggar could make an oil drum suddenly appear and start to roll across the screen, Shuma-Gorath could make a tentacle appear through a portal that tries to restrict the opponent, etc. This would be fairly easy to implement, since it's just giving each character 1 more attack animation, effectively. This wouldn't be a comeback mechanic; it's just necessary to keep the game playable for the losing side.

 

[Professor Beef]

I like the current TACs. But then again I use them so I'm clearly biased.