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[onionfrog]

Nice, and I just got my ass handed to me 4 or 5 times in a row haha
Onionfrog, how'd I do for having played for 30 minutes prior to playing with you?

Considering you've only ever touched the game for 30 minutes, not bad.

I think the first thing you want to get down is the basic c.LMHS j.MMHS combo. Pretty much every character in the game can do it.

From there you can add an assist that hits off the ground (OTG) and continue the combo further. Wesker's gunshot assist is an example of this.

Then you could do a basic combo of:
c.LMHS j.MMHS [once you land, call wesker assist(A1), then] s.S j.MMHS

Which does pretty respectable damage for being very simple.

 

[Karsticles]

Oh okay so we are getting organized about it instead of you and Dahbomb going back in forth followed by God's Beard adding something crazy / ridiculous Magneto buffs then Beef sarcastically replaying to him. That's cool. I'll add my two cents when asked for it.

It takes two to tango my friend.

I won't ever ask for your two cents, but I do hope you provide it often.

So I heard about what just started to happen in this thread, figured I would attempt to yell at everyone based on that list a few pages back.

I wouldn't really know what to do with TAC hitstun. It should probably reset the hitstun timer, but it should progress normally afterwards until touching the ground. Destroying the ability to extend combos with TACs isn't a good idea, but infinites should be gotten rid of. The TAC counter window should be increased with no visual cue as to which direction it is, making it easier to react with S instead of mashing it, also discouraging mash S + rolling the stick instead of guessing and eliminating the no TAC > hit them out of their preemptive counter mixup.

Our current line of thought is to do the following to TACs:
1) Non-breakable.
2) Costs 1 meter.
3) Resets HSD to 0.
4) No meter gain from the TAC initiator.
5) No meter effects based on direction chosen.

I don't think the throw tech window needs to be increased, that sounds like the beginning of an online wishlist. Throws should be a powerful mixup option, killing characters off them is an entirely separate issue.

Marvel throws have the least number of tech frames of any fighting game I'm aware of. I just want to bring it a little more in line with other games. Nothing big, just 5 more frames.

Getting pushed back further from throws would also be super terrible for characters without big buttons, all it would do is make sword normal/super armor characters more ridiculous post throw tech than they are already and hurt everyone else. At one character length Wovlerine's s.L would probably still reach anyway, letting him shit on the entire game post throw tech.

Make it two character lengths, then. The tech mash at the beginning of some rounds is really dumb, and should go away.

Not being able to throw/tech with diagonals is how the game should have been the whole time.

Indeed, we're on the same page there.

XF2/3 speed and damage boosts should be toned down, install hyper boosts should add instead of multiply.

And here.

Lowering the overall damage just hurts everyone who doesn't already do a ton of damage. Leave that alone and nerf the minimum scaling values on characters who do too much damage.

Marvel 2 and Skullgirls are better off for being reset-based games. I think Marvel 3 would be the same way. I disagree that lowering the damage hurts those who don't do a lot of damage - those characters are good at resets. In the current meta, the only option is to kill in 1 hit, because you can kill in 1 hit. If you remove that, then there are incentives to choose between heavy hitters with poor resets and light hitters with good resets.

Get rid of assist calls during both tech rolls and air techs. Make neutral techs on the ground slower, characters stand up far too fast which makes reacting to the neutral tech actually difficult which is one of the dumbest things in this game.

Why is this dumb? I always considered it an interesting additional level of strategy for the player facing recovery.

Now, of things I've noticed, you should be able to buffer inputs during the opponents hitstop, currently when your opponent hits your assist character you're practically unable to do anything because of all the hitstop. Zero's s.H is a great example of this.

I'd actually like to change hitstop in general. Cut it down a bit.

When an assist character is hit airborne and sent into knockdown, the character should be invincible upon standing up and exiting the stage. Standing up and getting hit by a meaty super instead of exiting is incredibly stupid.

This seems to only happen randomly (Chaotic Flame misses all the time in this situation), but I agree.

Probably more of a Dante problem than it is for anyone else, the death freeze upon killing a character shouldn't eat the input during it. In vanilla the input move came out as soon as the freeze ended, here you get nothing.

Noted, and thanks for the notes.

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

Then you could do a basic combo of:
c.LMHS j.MMHS [once you land, call wesker assist(A1), then] s.S j.MMHS

Which does pretty respectable damage for being very simple.

Ahh yes everybody's original Vanilla combo since day 1.






*Cries cause he still uses this combo

I won't ever ask for your two cents, but I do hope you provide it often.

You were a monk in your past life weren't you.

 

[Dahbomb]

Why is this dumb? I always considered it an interesting additional level of strategy for the player facing recovery.

Top players like FChamp abuse it by just getting up and mashing throw or cr.Ls. He's right, the neutral tech animation is a bit too fast to the point of giving the neutral tech option a weird advantage. KBR also likes to neutral tech and mash Lariat.

 

[Karsticles]

You were a monk in your past life weren't you.

Nah, I look down on monks. Spiritually sick individuals.

 

[Darksim]

Pretty sure that the push back would be more than Wolverine's st.L length, otherwise that would defeat the purpose. The whole point of the throw tech distance change is that you are out of throw range and out of most character's cr.L range where some people just like to mash on jabs after a throw.

Throw tech > L isn't something you can mash, and it's a very important part of stabilizing the start of matches since it makes the character that would lose post throw tech back off in some way. The repeated throwing thing is stupid, but it should never happen because you can press a light faster than you can walk back into throw range. If you make the distance further than all of the lights all it really means is that Vergil gets to press H after the throw tech and you can't do anything about it.

Marvel throws have the least number of tech frames of any fighting game I'm aware of. I just want to bring it a little more in line with other games. Nothing big, just 5 more frames.

Guilty Gear has 1 frame ground and air throws with a 4 frame tech window, Marvel is shockingly fair by comparison. A few more frames wouldn't be the biggest deal I suppose, but I don't think it's really anything harmful the way it is now.

 

[onionfrog]

Ahh yes everybody's original Vanilla combo since day 1.


*Cries cause he still uses this combo
.

Haha. Nothing wrong with that. Sometimes you need to keep it simple so that you dont drop anything. That's my philosophy anyways.

I also figured that it would be the best starting point for a new player.
That and learning to cover your approach with a projectile or beam assist.

 

[Frantic]

Throw tech > L isn't something you can mash, and it's a very important part of stabilizing the start of matches since it makes the character that would lose post throw tech back off in some way. The repeated throwing thing is stupid, but it should never happen because you can press a light faster than you can walk back into throw range. If you make the distance further than all of the lights all it really means is that Vergil gets to press H after the throw tech and you can't do anything about it.

There are some instances and characters that put them closer to you post throw-tech as far as I'm aware. In my attempt to come up with counters versus Hulks by recording him mashing forward H in training mode, there are some times post throw tech where he's literally right in front of you still and he'll throw you out of every thing you try to do. Even snapbacks aren't fast enough in some cases. It's most notable with the 'heavies' than the other characters, but it can happen with any character if one of them is in the corner.

That, at the very least, should be changed.

 

[Dahbomb]

All I know is that I never want to see throw tech spam ever again.

 

[Frantic]

Also, does the game actually have unique throw ranges for every character, or is it just a sort of placebo effect? Because if they do, I want a uniform throw range. >_>

 

[Professor Beef]

Dante

pass

 

[Dahbomb]

Also, does the game actually have unique throw ranges for every character, or is it just a sort of placebo effect? Because if they do, I want a uniform throw range. >_>

I am 99% sure the game has unique throw ranges in the game. Characters like Viper, Nova, Skrull and Ammy have extremely high throw range but Iron Man has a very mediocre throw range. I know it isn't a case of mobility because Iron Man and Nova have identical air mobility.

That's what it feels like, I really have no idea how we can actually test this.

 

[Darksim]

Also, does the game actually have unique throw ranges for every character, or is it just a sort of placebo effect? Because if they do, I want a uniform throw range. >_>

Fairly certain it does, nothing else can explain the ridiculous grab range some characters have.

pass

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

Also, does the game actually have unique throw ranges for every character, or is it just a sort of placebo effect? Because if they do, I want a uniform throw range. >_>

How can you say this knowing Nova's in this game.

 

[Frantic]

That's what it feels like, I really have no idea how we can actually test this.

I wonder if the Vita version shows the hitboxes for throws? Someone should check.

 

[Azure J]

Hi everyone

Give Devil Trigger hyper armor

By everyone

Gotta say, this bit of your post with your avatar was a great combo. :lol

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Also, does the game actually have unique throw ranges for every character, or is it just a sort of placebo effect? Because if they do, I want a uniform throw range. >_>

I'm about 80% sure that "throw range" is more of a side effect of the relative hitboxes that characters have than it is of the actual range on the throws. Felicia wins air throw battles left and right because her jumping hitbox is minuscule and other characters tend to just whiff a j.H when going up against her because she's too small to be in range of the throw.

Command throws have definite ranges. You can find hitbox viewer guides on Youtube and these are usually in there.

 

[smurfx]

ggs fslink. i just kept getting saltier and saltier for every missed air throw or execution error. so frustrating to not be able to punish stuff since screwing up vs ZMC can mean death.

 

[FSLink]

ggs fslink. i just kept getting saltier and saltier for every missed air throw or execution error. so frustrating to not be able to punish stuff since screwing up vs ZMC can mean death.

Yeah I got pretty salty when I was using my Nova team too, couldn't convert a single FoF loop, lol. But ggs.

 

[smurfx]

I'm about 80% sure that "throw range" is more of a side effect of the relative hitboxes that characters have than it is of the actual range on the throws. Felicia wins air throw battles left and right because her jumping hitbox is minuscule and other characters tend to just whiff a j.H when going up against her because she's too small to be in range of the throw.

Command throws have definite ranges. You can find hitbox viewer guides on Youtube and these are usually in there.

i want a comparison of haggars ground command throw to weskers and spencer. theirs seems to go out further.

 

["God's Beard!"]

lol Violent Ken makes too much sense

 

[Zissou]

Given that the current thinking is TAC resetting HSD to zero and having it build normally from there, what would prevent infinites? As long as you can build a meter post-TAC, couldn't you relaunch and TAC ad infinitum?

 

[Dahbomb]

Given that the current thinking is TAC resetting HSD to zero and having it build normally from there, what would prevent infinites? As long as you can build a meter post-TAC, couldn't you relaunch and TAC ad infinitum?

That's why meter building is not allowed after TAC and not only that you can only perform 2 TACs max each at meter cost. So the only way you are getting double TACs off is if you have 2 bars going into the TAC.

 

[Professor Beef]

Anyone on PSN wanna play?

 

[Sigmaah]

Any 360 homies wanna play? Tryna get my Marvel fix.

 

[Zissou]

That's why meter building is not allowed after TAC and not only that you can only perform 2 TACs max each at meter cost. So the only way you are getting double TACs off is if you have 2 bars going into the TAC.

For some reason the no meter-building thing completely slipped my mind, but wouldn't it still be prone to abuse? If a TAC completely resets HSD, what's to stop me from doing 600k meterless damage with somebody, TACing into Doom, and doing another 600k+ damage. It would end up being much more damage than ending with a hyper and then DHCing into Doom would do.

 

[Karsticles]

For some reason the no meter-building thing completely slipped my mind, but wouldn't it still be prone to abuse? If a TAC completely resets HSD, what's to stop me from doing 600k meterless damage with somebody, TACing into Doom, and doing another 600k+ damage. It would end up being much more damage than ending with a hyper and then DHCing into Doom would do.

HSD resets, damage decay does not. No way can Doom do 600K without spending multiple bars of meter after a TAC, which means you are burning 3+ bars of meter for that 1.2 million. Totally fair.

 

[Pollux]

Considering you've only ever touched the game for 30 minutes, not bad.

I think the first thing you want to get down is the basic c.LMHS j.MMHS combo. Pretty much every character in the game can do it.

From there you can add an assist that hits off the ground (OTG) and continue the combo further. Wesker's gunshot assist is an example of this.

Then you could do a basic combo of:
c.LMHS j.MMHS [once you land, call wesker assist(A1), then] s.S j.MMHS

Which does pretty respectable damage for being very simple.

You're going to have to explain what that means in lay person speak haha. Play some more Wednesday?

 

[Dahbomb]

For some reason the no meter-building thing completely slipped my mind, but wouldn't it still be prone to abuse? If a TAC completely resets HSD, what's to stop me from doing 600k meterless damage with somebody, TACing into Doom, and doing another 600k+ damage. It would end up being much more damage than ending with a hyper and then DHCing into Doom would do.

Doom only does 500K meterless damage when he does his relaunches. TACs only start at 0 to get that first airborne hit in, once you get that the HSD would go to that level when you launch an enemy. I would say that after one or both characters reach the ground HSD would go to max or it will build up to max if the air combo starts to go on long naturally. A lot of the reasons Doom even gets such combos is because HSD is almost completely ignored all the way through which won't be happening anymore..

Doom is probably one of those characters that needs a slight damage scaling nerf on his normals anyway. He won't be doing nearly that much damage with a universal damage nerf and different HSD values after TAC but it would still be proportionally higher compared to other characters.

Also like Karst said, damage scaling would essentially be maxed out as well.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Going online now. Wish me luck.

 

[Karsticles]

You're going to have to explain what that means in lay person speak haha. Play some more Wednesday?

I listed what the letters mean, so I assume you mean that.

j. = jumping
c. = crouching
s. = standing

So s.LMH means:
Standing Light, then Standing Medium, then Standing Hard.

j.MMHS means:
Jumping Medium, Jumping Medium, Jumping Hard, Jumping Special.

If you do Mission Mode, it'll all become clear for you.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";70998596]Going online now. Wish me luck.[/QUOTE]
Good luck.

 

[Pollux]

I listed what the letters mean, so I assume you mean that.

j. = jumping
c. = crouching
s. = standing

So s.LMH means:
Standing Light, then Standing Medium, then Standing Hard.

j.MMHS means:
Jumping Medium, Jumping Medium, Jumping Hard, Jumping Special.

If you do Mission Mode, it'll all become clear for you.


Good luck.

Got it...thanks. Watching a tutorial to the game on YouTube now. Hopefully it clears some of this up lol

 

[Zissou]

I'm just thinking that currently the damage output for one meter at max scaling (i.e., tagging a hyper at the end of a combo) is typically what, 200k or so? With this TAC proposal, what use will non-utility level one hypers still have? It could work out that TACs almost always give you more damage bang for your meter buck than the hyper you could've done with the same meter at the end of a combo.

 

[Karsticles]

I'm just thinking that currently the damage output for one meter at max scaling (i.e., tagging a hyper at the end of a combo) is typically what, 200k or so? With this TAC proposal, what use will non-utility level one hypers still have? It could work out that TACs almost always give you more damage bang for your meter buck than the hyper you could've done with the same meter at the end of a combo.

1) Not all characters can do especially damaging combos.
2) You don't always want to change your team order.
3) Hypers are easier than performing a whole second combo.
4) Most level 1 hypers have some kind of utility. Assist punishes, etc.

 

[Zissou]

1) Not all characters can do especially damaging combos.

True, but this may end up skewing team construction to highly favor characters with highly damaging TAC combos in slot 2.

2) You don't always want to change your team order.

Agreed.

3) Hypers are easier than performing a whole second combo.

True, but high level play, it won't matter much, no?

4) Most level 1 hypers have some kind of utility. Assist punishes, etc.

Maybe I'm just talking as a bitter ex-She-hulk player, haha.

Also, regardless of the meter spent vs. damage dealt proposition, I assume one thing we all agree upon is ridiculously long combos detract from the game, and giving someone the ability to completely reset HSD twice could lead to absurdly long combos.

 

[Karsticles]

True, but this may end up skewing team construction to highly favor characters with highly damaging TAC combos in slot 2.

As long as optimal TAC follow-ups don't do significantly more damage than hypers, I think it will be fine. I mean, if you watched Dahbomb's Iron Man video, while it was very damaging, that team was mega ass. It was all about showing off the combo.

True, but high level play, it won't matter much, no?

It always matters. Did you see Justin drop the Storm infinite against Zero in Evo GF?

Maybe I'm just talking as a bitter ex-She-hulk player, haha.

We will heal her.

Also, regardless of the meter spent vs. damage dealt proposition, I assume one thing we all agree upon is ridiculously long combos detract from the game, and giving someone the ability to completely reset HSD twice could lead to absurdly long combos.

This is a good point, but if we are making combos shorter in general, I do not think it will be much of a problem. IMO, something around Morrigan's combo length is optimal. I think the actual combo length problem is due to a few mechanics. For example, Dr. Doom has to dash and then OTG off a hard knockdown midscreen, so his combos take forever. His corner combos, while boring, aren't too long. Dante has a million specials that he has to go through. Zero has ridiculous hitstop on his multi-hit moves that needs to calm down a bit. This is also the problem with Spiral Swords loops. Magneto has to superjump into a tridash to do his corner loop. Most of the long combo issues are character-specific, and not system-specific. So long as we look at individual character combos and why they take so long, I don't think this will be a problem.

 

[QisTopTier]

These wins are so fraudulent

Edit: Godess bracelet should become a power up move like spirals swords

 

[smurfx]

Yeah I got pretty salty when I was using my Nova team too, couldn't convert a single FoF loop, lol. But ggs.

hey when is the last time we played? i may be confusing you with another person but you really leveled up.

 

[FSLink]

hey when is the last time we played? i may be confusing you with another person but you really leveled up.

A long time ago, lol. I think you were like a 6th Lord or something online at the time. Yeah last time I was pretty free to Haggar. Luckily my buddy locally plays him so I've gotten tons better at his incoming mixups to make Dark Vergil at least survive long enough to make a comeback.

Actually I think the last time we really played I was still using Ryu/Wesker/Hawkeye.

 

[smurfx]

A long time ago, lol. I think you were like a 6th Lord or something online at the time. Yeah last time I was pretty free to Haggar. Luckily my buddy locally plays him so I've gotten tons better at his incoming mixups to make Dark Vergil at least survive long enough to make a comeback.

if i knew you were this good i would have sent you more invites!

 

[FSLink]

if i knew you were this good i would have sent you more invites!

Thanks.
I've been working on a team similar to yours: Haggar/Doom (missiles or rocks)/Hawkeye, and in casuals around here it works pretty well. I'll give it a try in a few sets against you sometime once my Haggar isn't so fraudulent.

These wins are so fraudulent

Edit: Godess bracelet should become a power up move like spirals swords

Arthur should just get Spiral Swords.

 

[QisTopTier]

Thanks.
I've been working on a team similar to yours: Haggar/Doom (missiles or rocks)/Hawkeye, and in casuals around here it works pretty well. I'll give it a try in a few sets against you sometime once my Haggar isn't so fraudulent.



Arthur should just get Spiral Swords.

I ment the character not vergils super

 

[Dahbomb]

IMO TACs are already design with having higher damage characters second to TAC into. It's a team game after all. The rationale that Nitsuma provided was that you would start a combo with a fast but low damage character and then TAC into a high damage but low mobility character.

I think that's perfectly fine in theory but the problem was that a character like Zero excelled at getting hits, excelled at killing himself and excelled at even killing off of TACs, CCs and DHCs. In the end with the way TACs worked they heavily favored flying characters even in a pre-infinite meta game and flying characters are also among the better ones at landing a hit.

Also there is going to be quite a lot of surplus meter in matches especially since technically we aren't doing a damage nerf but rather a health buff. So it would be a game in which Wesker would have 1.35 million health. With hypers also adjusted due to the mashing buff, no one is going to spend 2 bars to do 1 million damage on a full health Wesker which won't be enough to kill but rather save it and go for resets. A Phoenix player would build 5 bars before killing the 2nd character because even though you are building meter at the same rate as before you are inflicting less damage. This is also ideal for Frank who sometimes can't get leveled up because the opponent dies too fast.

 

["God's Beard!"]

GGs Q, super laggy and our connection is definitely worse than before, but at least I can get online now.

 

[QisTopTier]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71012361]GGs Q, super laggy and our connection is definitely worse than before, but at least I can get online now.[/QUOTE]

I guess that's the one upside to me rarely plaything these days, I couldnt feel the lag cause of well havent been playing lagless XD

My wins were all super fraud status though.

 

["God's Beard!"]

It felt like I would hit you, lag would just stop everything then you'd hit me, then lag'd stop your combo and I'd hit you.

There were times where you'd plow through shockwave from fullscreen and I couldn't even x-factor. -_-

 

[QisTopTier]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71012756]It felt like I would hit you, lag would just stop everything then you'd hit me, then lag'd stop your combo and I'd hit you.

There were times where you'd plow through shockwave from fullscreen and I couldn't even x-factor. -_-[/QUOTE]

I didnt drop any combos from lag though, I was legitly just playing shitty in that case XD

 

["God's Beard!"]

I'm surprised you didn't notice the lag, the whole screen would freeze for a split second for me.

Then again, I'm really suspicious that my PS3 is dying.

 

[QisTopTier]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71013406]I'm surprised you didn't notice the lag, the whole screen would freeze for a split second for me.

Then again, I'm really suspicious that my PS3 is dying.[/QUOTE]
I wasn't getting any freezes like that

 

[Sigmaah]

I hate Haggar so much. I blame LAG.

I'm starting to like Dorm a lot. Ooo!
I still don't know how to use him for shit though...