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[Sigmaah]

How the hell did we all forget about overhead raw tag...? lol

Also Ono said he would try to push for a UMVC3 update.

PROOF OR I WILL NEVER BELIEVE.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Drones should disappear if Magneto gets hit. Beams should not hit if the point character has been hit. Missiles should get nullified if I clip Morrigan. Etc.

My argument for this is that you end up with slow projectile assists being better than most other assist choices, because they'll save your arse when you've been reckless. Even stuff like Doom Beam becomes amazing because if you space it right Doom will save your arse.

If I hit you, you should eat whatever damage I manage to get. You shouldn't be able to rely on safe tactics.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Drones should disappear if Magneto gets hit. Beams should not hit if the point character has been hit. Missiles should get nullified if I clip Morrigan. Etc.

My argument for this is that you end up with slow projectile assists being better than most other assist choices, because they'll save your arse when you've been reckless. Even stuff like Doom Beam becomes amazing because if you space it right Doom will save your arse.

If I hit you, you should eat whatever damage I manage to get. You shouldn't be able to rely on safe tactics.

lol

 

[Sixfortyfive]

You guys are forgetting the lamest change from Vanilla to Ultimate.

Fuck mashing during hypers. I say this as a person who mashes constantly.

I sort of agree, but the fact that you can choose whether or not to go for max damage can be helpful. If you know the non-mashed version will still kill, you can opt for that and get a little more time to set-up your entry mix-up on the next character.

Drones should disappear if Magneto gets hit. Beams should not hit if the point character has been hit. Missiles should get nullified if I clip Morrigan. Etc.

My argument for this is that you end up with slow projectile assists being better than most other assist choices, because they'll save your arse when you've been reckless. Even stuff like Doom Beam becomes amazing because if you space it right Doom will save your arse.

If I hit you, you should eat whatever damage I manage to get. You shouldn't be able to rely on safe tactics.

Can't agree with this. Too many characters dependent on projectile coverage to get in would be nerfed too hard. This change would only make sense if good invincible assists were still prevalent.

 

[JeTmAn81]

Drones should disappear if Magneto gets hit. Beams should not hit if the point character has been hit. Missiles should get nullified if I clip Morrigan. Etc.

My argument for this is that you end up with slow projectile assists being better than most other assist choices, because they'll save your arse when you've been reckless. Even stuff like Doom Beam becomes amazing because if you space it right Doom will save your arse.

If I hit you, you should eat whatever damage I manage to get. You shouldn't be able to rely on safe tactics.

Assists are separate characters. It makes no sense for their action to be halted when they haven't been hit. Assists saving your bacon is kind of the whole point to having teammates.

 

[Dahbomb]

PROOF OR I WILL NEVER BELIEVE.

Check the FGW thread. Horseress asked him and he said he will try to push for it on Twitter. It doesn't mean much because it's Trollno.

Also Plasma Beam and Hidden Missiles are separate cases. Most beam assists are easily punished but Doom's Beam appears way behind the point character. This will be addressed when we get to Doom. Also Missiles are verified as being too good, they will be normalized. Aside from these there isn't really any assist that is a big issue in terms of combo breaking, most assists get easily happy birthday'd if called sloppily.

 

[MiniBossBattle]

Drones should disappear if Magneto gets hit. Beams should not hit if the point character has been hit. Missiles should get nullified if I clip Morrigan. Etc.

My argument for this is that you end up with slow projectile assists being better than most other assist choices, because they'll save your arse when you've been reckless. Even stuff like Doom Beam becomes amazing because if you space it right Doom will save your arse.

If I hit you, you should eat whatever damage I manage to get. You shouldn't be able to rely on safe tactics.

Isn't the point of calling assists is to make your advance safe? You would get rid of the most interesting part of how people fight in the game.

That said, I think if you hit Doom assist, the missles explode and disappear.

 

[Darksim]

Disruptor appears really far behind the point character too, same with Taskmaster's horizontal arrows. Nothing is wrong with this, the beams/arrows that don't have this advantage have other ones instead, and even if they didn't it still isn't actually a problem.

 

["God's Beard!"]

SYSTEM CHANGES:

TAC Changes:
*Cost 1 bar, always a guaranteed exchange in one of three directions.
*Meter gain/loss from directional choice removed.
*HSD returns to 0 after a TAC and builds normally from there.
*The TAC user cannot gain meter after a TAC until the opponent enters recovery (exception: Soul Drain, meter gain assists).

*Use A1/A2 for TACs instead of S?
.

I'm fine with this.

Throw Changes:
*Throw tech window increased by 5 frames.
*You cannot be grabbed during tech recovery.
*Ground throw techs put one character-length distance between the two characters.
*Throws can only be initiated with f.H and b.H.

I think 5 frames is too much. You'd be surprised at how much easier that is. I say 2 extra frames max. Throws are huge in this game, you can't nerf them that hard. It'll wind up like SF4 where 3/4 throws are teched. You should increase it by a couple frames just because people that do expect the throw miss the timing a lot.

1 character distance might be slightly too much, you don't want characters to not be able to stick out a light after a tech.

X-Factor Changes:
*XF2 and XF3 values decreased. XF3 becomes XF2, XF2 is “XF1.5”.

*XF1 is the only X-Factor; timer scales with characters left. Bonuses make up for character weaknesses.

I'd be fine with the boost values going from combined 40/70/100% to combined 20/50/80%

I don't really understand the second change.

Damage Changes:
*Damage reduced by roughly 1/2 to 1/3 across the board (chip damage buffed to 50% or so to ensure keepaway is still viable).

*Damage reduction by 1/3rd. Chip damage slightly rescaled. Normals chip less than specials. Timer increased by ~25% to 33%.

*Assist characters take less damage than before (still more than the point character). Damage scaling applies to them like normal characters in ALL situations.

*- Overall damage lowered to the "Low" setting as per training mode settings.

I think Chip damage being 50% instead of 33% is good if you're lowering damage overall, but I'd be very wary of individual character damage since the disparity in strength is going to go way up and might be more of a balance issue than can be realistically dealt with by a skeleton crew.

I also think that the timer might not need to be increased by much, and there might be more interesting ways to deal with it. Like x-factor pausing the timer since it's a comeback mechanic.

Combo Changes:
*Cannot mash Light chains on whiff. Can only do it on block or hit.

*HSD timer goes to full scaling faster. This will definitely reduce some of the lengthier combos in the game.

I'm fine with the first change. I think any general suggestion towards changing hitstun decay is a really, really bad idea. You're already suggesting lowering damage, hitstun decay changes will create even greater disparity in the cast while removing a lot of enjoyment from people that love playing their characters. I don't think it's necessary at all. Only nerf the individual combos that are too much, like Zero BnBs.

Assist Changes:

* - Assists depart with invul frames doing nothing if a combo has been initiated on the point character of the player who called said assist before they arrive on screen.

* - Assists cannot be called during wakeup frames or rolls.

*Cannot call assists a certain time after throw techs (it's a short window of cool down, this is mostly to prevent throw + assist option selects).

*Cannot call assists at super jump height when a combo is dropped/reset is attempted and cannot call assists during tech roll.

*When an assist begins recovery from knockdown, it is invincible until it exits the stage.

Don't like the first change at all, removes a lot of the technical neutral play involving assist calls. You're actually incentivizing people to call their assists more often with less thought by doing this because you're decreasing the chances of getting happy birthday'd.

No assists during wakeup frames is an interesting change that I don't think will matter much. If you put a second or two timer on the recovering character then it gets really interesting and you're incentivizing resets which is a good thing. If you do that, then the super jump height thing no longer matters that much.

I do think there should be more invincible assists, but not the kind in vanilla that had a bunch of active frames. Stuff like Shoryukens should have the same handful of invincible frames in exchange for added recovery. If you have the recovery timer, then people can't call them during resets anyway.

Other Changes:
*Incoming character falling arc adjusted so it's more vertical and less horizontal.. making it easier to block/react to cross up attempts. No more guard break set ups can be applied to an incoming character until that character has touched the ground or has done some action. Incoming characters need more help than this but it's hard to come up with something because if you give too much then you are giving a character like Vergil or Strider more chance to make a comeback.

*Neutral tech recovery is now on par with directional tech recoveries.

*Character deaths do not cause inputs to drop.

*Input reading changed: holding forward/back is no longer a forward/back input in terms of moves. Example: holding back, and then doing qcb, currently gives one a reverse dragon punch motion. In general, directional input buffering is toned down a bit.

*Raw tags no longer hit overhead.

No. I can't agree with this at all. Incoming characters should be at a major disadvantage, this is the type of game it is. I'd be fine with the incoming character being able to change sides just to try and avoid inescapable unblockable setups, but they should pretty much be at the winning character's mercy. You're already lowering damage, so it's less likely a bad guess is the end of the game anyway.

Definitely no on neutral tech recovery parity. Otherwise there's no point. I can change my position or I can get up faster, those are the only tools I get on wakeup.

 

[Dahbomb]

Just some notes God's Beard:

The HSD change was supposed to be removed. It will be done on a character basis. So you can ignore that.

Neutral tech will not be made the same as the other tech in speed but rather it will be slightly slower and more obvious. We still want there to be some advantage to using it in certain situations.

Read the thing about incoming characters again, all that is being adjusted is their trajectory which really means that people can't just throw out any move and make it cross under. I totally agree that incoming character should be at a disadvantage but they should not be subject to mix ups that are more ambiguous than normal simply because of their entry trajectory.

 

[SolarKnight]

Don't like the first change at all, removes a lot of the technical neutral play involving assist calls. You're actually incentivizing people to call their assists more often with less thought by doing this because you're decreasing the chances of getting happy birthday'd.

Eh, if I understand Karst correctly, it's the same thing Skullgirls does and you still get happy birthday'd/double snapped if you do it mindlessly frequently enough anyways.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Bring back double snaps

 

[Pollux]

So...how do you block?

 

[Karsticles]

So...how do you block?

Hold the directional button away from your opponent.

For Dante, it's because the style cancel window for Volcano in X-Factor is reduced due to the speed increase. Since the window is smaller, the freeze frame causes the input to be eaten up. It's dumb.

In fact, X-Factor speed increase should not mess with the active frames of moves at all. It's why Strider gets a reduced cr.H range in X-Factor, and why(for some odd reason) Dante's cr.M has zero range in XF2(but only XF2).

Interesting to know.

Drones should disappear if Magneto gets hit. Beams should not hit if the point character has been hit. Missiles should get nullified if I clip Morrigan. Etc.

My argument for this is that you end up with slow projectile assists being better than most other assist choices, because they'll save your arse when you've been reckless. Even stuff like Doom Beam becomes amazing because if you space it right Doom will save your arse.

If I hit you, you should eat whatever damage I manage to get. You shouldn't be able to rely on safe tactics.

A huge part of the game is finding ways to make safe assist calls so you can approach. I don't think the game is well balanced for this, and you would essentially slaughter a lot of lesser assists in usefulness.

Disruptor appears really far behind the point character too, same with Taskmaster's horizontal arrows. Nothing is wrong with this, the beams/arrows that don't have this advantage have other ones instead, and even if they didn't it still isn't actually a problem.

The thing that bothers me about assists appearing behind characters is that at full screen, against Dormammu, they are always safe. Dormammu has no means to punish anything beyond full screen. It's a rather irksome situation. Also, it's part of why Plasma Beam is so dominant.

Eh, if I understand Karst correctly, it's the same thing Skullgirls does and you still get happy birthday'd/double snapped if you do it mindlessly frequently enough anyways.

Right.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71160571]Bring back double snaps[/QUOTE]
I'm interested in this. Double snaps are hype and you deserve it if it happens to you.

 

[Dahbomb]

New XF values should be 40/65/80. Nerfing XF1 values any further in a lower setting game would make it shit especially at 20% (given that you need to allocate speed bonuses as well you would have 10%-15% damage at best which is shit in a game where an average character is 1.4 million health).

The higher end values needed to be adjusted anyway, they are currently too much especially XF3. This current change makes XF2 actually very desirable but XF3 is still the best especially with the increased time in it. You would still easily get TODs in XF3 on average health characters but you actually need to do combos now.

So...how do you block?

This is one of the most difficult games to block in.

You block by just holding back for mid/high moves. You block mid/low moves by holding down/back. The default position to block is down/back (crouch block) and you react to high moves normally. Any type of aerial move is usually going to be have to blocked high. Some moves can be used on the ground which hit high so you have to take extra note about it when you see a ground move listed as "high" in a guide.

In this game you should be spending as little time on the ground as possible because blocking in the air allows you to block high and low simultameously, no guessing involved. The game still has right/left mix ups for you to block which are very potent so make sure you keep an eye on the point character.

You always block in relation to the point character, not the assist character. So if you find yourself sandwiched between two characters, block away from the point character, ignore the direction of the assist character.

There is also Advance Guard which you activate by pressing two attacks buutons while in block stun. This will push your opponent and away plus also negate some block/chip damage. You can generally Advance Guard as much as you can while in block stun but know that Advance Guard has no effect on assists so it's pointless to advance guard assists. Finally some right/left mix ups can be avoided with Advance Guard if you AG right at the moment they are about to cross you up. This is an invaluable tool against teleporter mix ups or Zero mix ups.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I wanna talk about Dante and Nemesis during the changes :3

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71169841]I wanna talk about Dante and Nemesis during the changes :3[/QUOTE]
I asked if you wanted to decide the weekly topics, but I think Dahbomb has been moving that along. ;-)

 

["God's Beard!"]

Oh I thought he claimed that job before I could say anything. I do think we should do more than 3 characters a week. At least 5.

 

[DeadPhoenix9065]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71170751]Oh I thought he claimed that job before I could say anything. I do think we should do more than 3 characters a week. At least 5.[/QUOTE]

1 high
2 mid
2 low

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Color coordination is still fun. Doom's default is the only one I can't really work with at all. Fits with Felicia's alt okay but Strider doesn't have any green to pick from.

Now to actually learn how to play these characters.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71160571]Bring back double snaps[/QUOTE]

Fuck yes.

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71170751]Oh I thought he claimed that job before I could say anything. I do think we should do more than 3 characters a week. At least 5.[/QUOTE]
If we all come to a consensus early, we can do more than 3, but I don't want us to push it. I want people to really think about it.

 

[Cloudius12]

Also need bigger P1/P2 bubble/position for offscreen characters.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Bring back hyper finish call outs

If we all come to a consensus early, we can do more than 3, but I don't want us to push it. I want people to really think about it.

It's a whole week though. 17 weeks of character balancing is really excessive.

 

[SolarKnight]

Bring back hyper finish call outs[/URL]

For the love of everything PLEASE that's the little touch I miss the most in this game.

 

[Dahbomb]

I decided to do some number crunching to figure out how the chip damage would work in proportion to the new lower damage:

I decided to use Chris's Magnum as the main projectile as it does a flat 150K damage. I will be using Wesker's health of 1 million as the standard for testing the damage against.

Currently the chip damage is at 30% of normal. So a normal Chris Magnum would do 45K damage on block.

If Wesker took all the shots of Magnum he would did in 7 Magnum shots.

If Wesker blocked all those Magnum shots, he would die in 23 Magnum shots from chip.

So proportionally speaking, a blocked Magnum shot does 4.34% damage to Wesker where as a regular shot does 14.2%.

Now we apply the same math but with Wesker having 1.33 million effective health to replicate lowered damage by 33% overall.

First I will apply the old setting of 30% chip.

Blocked Magnum = 30 hits to kill

Clean hit Magnum = 9 hits to kill

Block Magnum percentage = 3.33%

Clean hit Magnum = 11.11%


It's clear that nerfing the damage overall while keeping the same chip damage value nerfs zoning. In fact it's quite significant for block damage (not so much on hit) as now it takes you 7 more shots to kill someone on chip than before while it takes only 2 more shots to kill on hit (which is fair given the damage nerf).


Now we apply the proposed 50% chip damage change along with the 33% damage nerf. Now Chris' Magnum does 75K damage on block on a 1.33 million health Wesker.

Blocked Magnum = 18 hits to kill

Blocked Magnum percentage = 5.55%

WWWAAAAIIIITTTTT A MINUTEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!


When you apply the 33% damage nerf yet buff chip damage from 30% to 50%... you are actually doing MORE damage from chip than before the universal damage nerf. This is obviously nuts and puts zoners at an advantage as they are doing more chip yet rushdown characters are doing less damage in combos.

So now I will try the value at 40% chip damage after 33% damage nerf. Now a Magnum gun shot does 60K damage on block.

Block Magnum = 22 hits to kill

Block Magnum percentage = 4.5%


This value is way more normalized. You now take almost the same exact time time to kill a character from chip as you would in the current game where damage is high and chip is at 30%. IN FACT at 40% this is still a net buff to zoners because now someone like Chris kills a full health Wesker in one less gun shot than before while rushdown characters still have to land more hits to kill. I would be fine with this change because I still feel rushdown has more advantage than zoning.

TLR VERSION = 50% new value for chip damage is nuts and actually makes you die faster from chip than before. 40% value for chip puts the damage back to what it is now in terms of how long it takes for someone to kill you from chip.

 

[Karsticles]

I wanted a damage nerf in the 33% to 50% range, which is why I suggested the 50% chip buff. I don't think a 33% damage nerf is enough.

 

[Dahbomb]

I think 50% damage nerf is too drastic. Would really create a problem for characters who struggle to get in hits and cap out quick in terms of damage. Like Captain America would be way worse in the new game unless he gets buffed dramatically.

33% damage nerf is still substantial while still retaining the fast paced, high octane game play of the series. I think beyond the 33% damage nerf a lot of problems stem from inflation of damage in the game. Stuff like 80K, Spiral Swords, Flamethrower, high scaling on some characters, FotF, high damage hypers (Fatal Claw is ridiculous). Once you normalize this stuff, getting kills automatically becomes harder and that is without even factoring in the universal damage nerf or the XF nerf.

Maybe we can meet half way at 40%? Would need to do extra calculations.

So at 40% damage nerf Wesker now has EHP of 1.4 million. Calculated for 50% chip damage I get the following for Magnum (75K damage Magnum on block).

Blocked Magnum: 19 hits to kill
Block Magnum percentage: 5.26%

Still a significant buff to zoning, it's only a moderate improvement over 33% universal damage nerf.

Now I will calculate for 40% chip damage. Magnum now does 60K damage on block.

Block Magnum: 24 hits to kill
Block Magnum percentage: 4.1%

This is probably the most fair ratio out of all them, in fact it's near identical to the current value. This would in fact be a net buff to zoning because it's taking just about as many hits to kill someone on block where as the rushdown character needs more clean hits to kill (especially at 40% damage nerf).

At 40% damage nerf the best chip damage ratio would be somewhere between 35% and 40%.


Let's try this for 50% damage nerf which puts Wesker at 1.5 million EHP. At 50% chip damage we get the following:

Block Magnum: 20 hits to kill
Block Magnum percentage: 5%

It's too high still.

At 40% chip damage.

Block Magnum: 25 hits to kill
Block Magnum percentage: 4%

This is still WAY more ideal to the whole game than 50% chip damage. It takes only 2 more shots to kill someone as compared to now while the universal damage nerf is at a whopping 50%. I would say that even at this 40% chip damage, it would favor zoners a lot more. Someone who has a 700K BnB has to touch Wesker 3 times now to kill where as Chris Redfield only has to get Wesker to block 2 more Magnum shots to kill.


TLDR version: There is no scenario where 50% chip damage is justifiable especially if the damage nerf range is 33% to 50%.

 

[smurfx]

Color coordination is still fun. Doom's default is the only one I can't really work with at all. Fits with Felicia's alt okay but Strider doesn't have any green to pick from.

Now to actually learn how to play these characters.

are you pulling a moonz and dumping task too? ;_;

 

[Pollux]

Anyone online want to play a couple games?

 

["God's Beard!"]

My turn! :3

 

[Karsticles]

Anyone online want to play a couple games?

Play GB. If I have time, I will play later tonight. I have a lot on my plate, though.

 

[Pollux]

Play GB. If I have time, I will play later tonight. I have a lot on my plate, though.

GB?

 

["God's Beard!"]

GB?

I'm Gods_Beard on PSN if you wanna play in a few minutes.

 

[Dahbomb]

Angelic posted his tier list. Morrigan and Zero top 2 in game.

Also he says Mystic Ray is top 5 assist in the game.

 

[Pollux]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71209721]I'm Gods_Beard on PSN if you wanna play in a few minutes.[/QUOTE]
Gotcha. I'll add ya tomorrow. Just put on a movie lol

 

[Karsticles]

Angelic posted his tier list. Morrigan and Zero top 2 in game.

Also he says Mystic Ray is top 5 assist in the game.

Mystic Ray is an excellent assist.

 

[Dahbomb]

He also says Firebrand is top 5 in the game and will start using more FB in tournaments with Dorm and Shuma.

 

[Karsticles]

He also says Firebrand is top 5 in the game and will start using more FB in tournaments with Dorm and Shuma.

Yeah, Angelic thinks that Wolverine players should move to Shuma-Gorath. Which is really hard for me to understand after seeing how strong his Wolverine was in those matches. I mean, I understand that Firebrand is good, but better than Wolverine? I will believe it when I see it. He has problems opening people up.

 

[Dahbomb]

He never said Wolverine players should switch to Shuma although he does think point Shuma with assists is legit.

He thinks FB is top 5 just like any other person who thinks he is top 5... unblockable set up means you win off first touch.

And he never said FB was better than Wolverine either. He thinks Wolverine is top 5 too. His top 5 is Zero (best), Morrigan (#2), Wolverine, Magneto, Firebrand. Also he says Wolverine is god in first 5 seconds but after that he drops off, still that's good enough to win matches. He also said that he values point characters a lot more than assist/support characters and all these are characters played on optimized teams.

 

[Karsticles]

He never said Wolverine players should switch to Shuma although he does think point Shuma with assists is legit.

He thinks FB is top 5 just like any other person who thinks he is top 5... unblockable set up means you win off first touch.

And he never said FB was better than Wolverine either. He thinks Wolverine is top 5 too. His top 5 is Zero (best), Morrigan (#2), Wolverine, Magneto, Firebrand. Also he says Wolverine is god in first 5 seconds but after that he drops off, still that's good enough to win matches. He also said that he values point characters a lot more than assist/support characters and all these are characters played on optimized teams.

He didn't say that tonight, but he said it a few weeks before Evo.

 

[SolarKnight]

Mystic Ray is an excellent assist.

I don't even see how that'd ever be arguable really.

 

[Dahbomb]

He didn't say that tonight, but he said it a few weeks before Evo.

Are you sure it wasn't FB instead of Wolverine? He doesn't even rate Shuma better than Mid tier.

 

[Karsticles]

Are you sure it wasn't FB instead of Wolverine? He doesn't even rate Shuma better than Mid tier.

I am very tired and frustrated tonight. Yes, it was Firebrand. I don't know how I misread that through 3 posts.

 

[Dahbomb]

Yea that makes more sense now.

I think we should lock in the throw changes as well. The only thing that there was some controversy on was the throw tech distance. Most people seem to agree that it should put you out of range for another tech but not out of range for most jabs. I think that's fine.

Tomorrow we should do damage and XF.

 

[Karsticles]

Yea that makes more sense now.

I think we should lock in the throw changes as well. The only thing that there was some controversy on was the throw tech distance. Most people seem to agree that it should put you out of range for another tech but not out of range for most jabs. I think that's fine.

Tomorrow we should do damage and XF.

I think it should be slightly out of the range of most jabs. If I'm lucky enough to tech a Wolverine throw with Dormammu, should I really have to suffer more guaranteed pressure from him? At least give me a chance to get out through a superjump or s.M.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I remember when people were trying to tell me Magneto was just outside the top ten characters in the game and no way was he top 5.

Tomorrow we should do damage and XF.

I'm very, very wary of non-character damage changes. I don't think it's a realistic request for Capcom because it creates massive balance changes. Should probably stick to x-factor.

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71227781]I remember when people were trying to tell me Magneto was just outside the top ten characters in the game and no way was he top 5.[/quote]
I remember when I talked to idiots, too. But they're idiots, so I don't feel it's necessary to throw an "I told you so" out there. He has always been a top 5 candidate.

I'm very, very wary of non-character damage changes. I don't think it's a realistic request for Capcom because it creates massive balance changes. Should probably stick to x-factor.

You aren't for a universal damage nerf?

 

[Dahbomb]

I think it should be slightly out of the range of most jabs. If I'm lucky enough to tech a Wolverine throw with Dormammu, should I really have to suffer more guaranteed pressure from him? At least give me a chance to get out through a superjump or s.M.

Putting techs out of jab range would give advantage to sword normal and armor characters. You may be out of Wolverine jab range but out of Vergil jab range? Putting it further than that means now Vergil gets free st.H and he wins over every character in the game because as far as I know no move has that much range plus speed ratio unless you burn meter with Ghost Rider for a snap back. Also gives advantage to Hulk, as if he needed more advantage.

It's too tough to call on how much the distance is needed where most characters would be at an equal footing. I think it's best to just keep it simple and put it out of re-throw tech range.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Skrull's dhalsim normals have no hurtbox.

I remember when I talked to idiots, too. But they're idiots, so I don't feel it's necessary to throw an "I told you so" out there. He has always been a top 5 candidate.

The I told you so is coming next year when he's agreed-upon #1 ^_^

You aren't for a universal damage nerf?

I thought this was about realistic changes though. Don't think they would do it.