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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!

FSLink

Banned
Any thoughts of this theory team I want to try using? It's because they're my favorite 3 to use in this game.

Wright (b)/Dante (a)/Zero (a).

Goal is to obviously play defense well with Jam Session, gather evidence, and use THC to land Objection. If opponent is going too ham, use Zero alpha counter and begin lightning loop. If Wright dies, use Dante's double jump to avoid incoming mixup, find way to tag in Zero safely (alpha counter, well read hard tag, TAC, etc). If not, I do know how to use Zero anchor a bit....pretty risky but I might be able to get away with it sometimes since people don't know how to fight Zero anchor.
Any thoughts?

Wright b for Zero OTG pickups and possible mixups when it's the wallbounce turnabout version.
 
i just tried to cancel dooms launcher and you can't, though you can cancel his F+H launcher, but that doesn't always work well in a block string.

it would be better, though, as a lot of people try to get a grab and it OS into F+H launcher to then cancel it with flight or something



zero XF3 always seemed pointless to me
 
The command launcher is the one we're talking about. I always do 2LH xx jM on hit or block but it doesn't really matter because I never play Doom.

XF3 Zero is awesome, Marn makes crazy comebacks with him.
 
Definitely not optimal I agree, but I think on a Wright team with him on it, I think I'd rather have Zero have a chance at living and coming in later via crossover counter or TAC/DHC. :p

i saw a guy at evo using phoenix second like he was a regular character. he also had unblockable setups with the dog assist.

zero point is a must IMO
 

FSLink

Banned
i saw a guy at evo using phoenix second like he was a regular character. he also had unblockable setups with the dog assist.

zero point is a must IMO

I have other teams with Wright second, and I just don't see Zero getting much off of dog assist (Dante gets tons of use off it however), and doing the DHC trick to Wright doesn't seem optimal if I'm going for lightning loops, lol. Zero can also die quickly and Wright's pretty free to incoming.

Unblockable setups is a good point though, could probably just call it at super jump height using that glitch with Zero (because he totally needs more tools right guys!?), and then dive kick. Could work with some matchups I suppose.
 

Dahbomb

Member
wc9b.jpg


Da wack bot.
 

Darksim

Member
The thing that bothers me about assists appearing behind characters is that at full screen, against Dormammu, they are always safe. Dormammu has no means to punish anything beyond full screen. It's a rather irksome situation. Also, it's part of why Plasma Beam is so dominant.

And this is a problem why? So you can't always punish an assist call with a top 10 character (many would argue top 5), doesn't make him suck or anything. I don't think assists like that need to be changed at all, much how I don't think throw techs need to be changed either in their window or pushback distance. If Dormammu is screwed so hard after a throw tech against Wolverine... then start the match by jumping away instead of walking up to him. Or play Dormammu second and start someone who can handle round start pressure better since Dormammu is particularly terrible at it anyway.

The real problem with adding more pushback is how much it would hurt offensive characters, not just at the start of the round but how it would make ground throws a crappier option since they wouldn't be able to continue pressure afterwards. Getting thrown out of throw tech recovery is a separate issue that can be fixed, and you could also take that a step further and make characters still throw invincible for so many frames after they recover from the tech to avoid the rapid grabbing crap.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Dorm has Chaotic Flame to punish Plasma Beam though.

Today is overall damage and XF day. My proposal is simple:

33% health increase for all characters (same as 33% damage nerf without nerfing meter gain). Chip on block for specials and hypers increased from 30% to 35% for parity sake. Chip from normals reduced to 20%, mostly to not make Frank West lvl4/5 absurd in the new patch and to allow some characters to have chip on some normals for more viability (like Ghost Rider and Sentinel).

XF values are now 40/65/80. Since overall characters have more health and we don't want more time outs, XF now freezes time as well.

Buffs and XF values stack additively rather than multiplicatively.

For reference here is how zoning would stack up under the new change.

Old game: Chris Magnum - 150K damage on hit, 45K damage on block (30% chip), 7 clean hits to kill Wesker, 23 hits on block to kill from chip (or 4.34% damage). Wesker is at 1 million health.

New game: Chris Magnum - 150K damage on hit, 52.5K damage on block (35% chip), 25 hits on block to kill from chip (4% damage). Wesker is at 1.33 million health.
 
I disagree with all universal damage changes. I think it creates too big of a burden on balancing and I don't think it's something players are clamoring for.

I also heavily disagree with the chip normals nerf. I think Frank earns his normals with the level ups. He should be better than the rest of the cast in level 4. Because he sucks at level 1.

I say no damage changes and bring down x-factor to 20/50/80.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Frank West even at 20% chip on his normals destroys characters. This gives more characters a chance to actually fight him rather than get chipped out by j.M all day long. Because the game has lower damage, Frank will get more chances to get leveled up plus the new TAC system also helps him as he gets more guaranteed set ups to level up. He would still be the best character in the game when leveled up especially in a game where Zero no longer TODs on every hit.

XF1 at 20% boost is shit, we already had this conversation. Some characters wouldn't even be able to kill solo with that amount of boost.

I don't think it's something players are clamoring for.
There isn't a top player who has not complained about the damage in this game. It was even on the suggestion list for FGTV.
 

Dahbomb

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71370526]So?[/QUOTE]
So people would just save their XF for lvl2/lvl3 instead of going for the offensive strike early. We want there to be compelling reasons to use all forms of XF rather than there being a superior choice in most cases.

Right now at 40% most characters are able to kill a single character solo before the XF juice just runs out. That is ideal for XF1, it's not too powerful like it was in Vanilla where it killed so fast you had enough time to mix up the 2nd character and kill that character too with XF still running. It's also not so useless that you would rather save it for your anchor than guaranteeing a kill on a point character. For someone like Storm that XF1 bonus is just enough to secure the kill early in the game if she gets the hit.
 
Most characters only get a 20% damage boost. They can still have a 20% damage boost. They just have to get better at using x-factor. I like the idea of using x-factor to press the advantage with instant overheads, extra OTGs, guard canceling and saving your ass. There's still a ton of uses, you just have to be smart.

Maybe now Magneto can't throw you at the start of the round, build two bars and kill you without using hypers.

Maybe people will have to choose between an unfinished slice of birthday cake and going for a double snap.

This way you're nerfing the massive momentum shift from Marvel being a high damage game without creating massive gaps between characters that have to be dealt with by going universal with damage nerfs.

Also, you've nerfed the hell out of Frank with the TAC changes so I definitely think he should keep his chip damage.
 

Dahbomb

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71374226]Most characters only get a 20% damage boost. They can still have a 20% damage boost. They just have to get better at using x-factor. I like the idea of using x-factor to press the advantage with instant overheads, extra OTGs, guard canceling and saving your ass. There's still a ton of uses, you just have to be smart. [/quote]
And you can still do that with the new XF system, I don't see how a 20% XF1 gives you more of a reason to do all of that.

Maybe now Magneto can't throw you at the start of the round, build two bars and kill you without using hypers.
The universal damage nerf will ensure that he has to at least spend bar to kill an average health character. And not every character can TOD off of throws with XF without spending bar so this is more of a problem with Magneto than a problem with XF1.


This way you're nerfing the massive momentum shift from Marvel being a high damage game without creating massive gaps between characters that have to be dealt with by going universal with damage nerfs.
There isn't going to be a massive gap in characters as a lot of characters are going to be buffed and nerfed anyway even in the damage department. This would only hold true if Zero was left untouch... hell yes he would be at an even bigger gap but not when his Loops or scaling are nerfed.


I think before we proceed we need to make a vote/survey on this again. It seems that there is even controversy over doing universal damage nerfs.

*Would you like overall damage to be nerfed or health buffed in the game? If so by how much?

*Do you think meter gain is a problem in the game?

*Do you wish XF to be rescaled? If so which XF do you think is more problematic?

*Do you wish chip from blocked attacks to be adjusted? Note that for parity sake the more you nerf the damage in the game the more you have to rescale the chip for balance purposes.

*If there was a universal damage nerf... do you think the timer would have to be adjusted a bit to prevent more time outs? If so do you think they should just flat out increase the timer or give XF the property to freeze time?
 

Frantic

Member
My only real gripe with Plasma Beam is the stupid shit where you can rush head first like an idiot, get hit, and then combo off Plasma Beam since they get punished.
/uses low voltage the same way

Honestly, I'm fine with Plasma Beam coming out behind in a theoretical update, since ToDs won't be as prevalent. My main gripe with it, right now, is that it leads to death which is dumb. If that's taken out, it's mostly fine since its combo breaking properties are much more situational than something like Hidden Missiles.

Also need something to differentiate it between Unibeam, since hopefully Doom and Iron-Man won't be so far apart in being 'good'.

Getting thrown out of throw tech recovery is a separate issue that can be fixed, and you could also take that a step further and make characters still throw invincible for so many frames after they recover from the tech to avoid the rapid grabbing crap.
That was something I was actually thinking about. If throw tech leaves a small period of throw invulnerability, it would remove the stupid repeated tech, and force people to press H to tech instead of mashing it like an idiot.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Also need something to differentiate it between Unibeam, since hopefully Doom and Iron-Man won't be so far apart in being 'good'.
Unibeam holds opponents in place and keeps them standing... Plasma Beam does not. Plasma Beam has the advantage of coming out behind the opponent where as Iron Man comes where the opponent is standing making it easier to be punished. For a few characters Unibeam is preferable.

And yea I would back up adding throw invincibility for a short time after throw tech. This would automatically remove Wolverine throwing you again after being super sped up.

Oh and here are my answers for the survey thing:

*Would you like overall damage to be nerfed or health buffed in the game? If so by how much?
A: Yea I think damage is entirely way too high although I am also of the opinion that a lot of the damage in the game comes from inflated sources which should be on a higher priority to change. That said a 33% damage nerf/health buff is acceptable. 50% is entirely way too high and would require more tweaking, at 33% an average health character becomes Thor and we all know Thor can still be easily killed with just one reset.

*Do you think meter gain is a problem in the game?
It's not a problem. Meter gain is only a problem for certain characters who can build a shit ton which would probably be adjusted on a character by character basis. Characters like Storm, Dorm, Firebrand etc just barely make the meter to initiate their hyper for the BnB. But the main reason you can't really mess with meter gain is because of that bird... right now meter gain is just right for Phoenix where you don't get a shit ton of meter for just getting beat up like in Vanilla and making 5 bars is not impossible at all. In a theoretical game where health is buffed (so that meter gain is not nerfed) that puts Phoenix in a better spot where that team can get to 5 bars because you have more opportunity to do so.


*Do you wish XF to be rescaled? If so which XF do you think is more problematic?
I mostly think XF2/XF3 are a bit too strong at the moment. While it's true that this is more of a problem for certain characters... most of the cast can still wipe out a team relatively easy with XF3 baby combos. I still want XF to be a powerful tool but I also want people to use XF1 earlier for aggressive plays. XF1 is fine right now where it is but XF2 and XF3 can use rescaling, most notably XF3.

*Do you wish chip from blocked attacks to be adjusted? Note that for parity sake the more you nerf the damage in the game the more you have to rescale the chip for balance purposes.
Chip from block would have to be adjusted anyway to keep zoning viable in a higher health game. It's a simple math calcluation... if you keep the scaling the same but lower the damage a zoning team would struggle a lot hard to kill from chip. For the record I do think chip on normals is too high (it was not this high in MVC2) and makes Frank West too powerful when leveled up. Rescaling the chip on normals also opens the avenue for giving chip on SOME NORMALS for some characters. Obviously I don't want every one of Ghost Rider's whips to chip but some of the riskier ones to use should chip because his whips are essentially his beams/specials.

*If there was a universal damage nerf... do you think the timer would have to be adjusted a bit to prevent more time outs? If so do you think they should just flat out increase the timer or give XF the property to freeze time?
I definitely do think the timer needs to be adjusted. While time outs can be hype, it's preferable that a match ends on time. I would be fine by either solution.
 
What's the goal with the damage nerf anyway? Get rid of One-touch kills? Make the game more like Marvel 2? I just really don't think it's a good idea and I think you'll alienate a lot of people that like the fast pace.

A more elegant solution might be to have a universal benchmark for what overpowered means.

I think any combo that builds two bars is too much. With those characters we should look at what causes that and make decisions on a case-by-case basis. That means Magneto, Zero, Vergil, Doom, maybe a couple other characters.

Also, any combo that does more than 850k for one bar unless you're a big body is probably too much. So you can add guys like Spencer.
 

Azure J

Member
I definitely have to agree with a lowering in system damage. The most fun about Marvel is actually in its neutral game and that always gets downplayed (rightfully so) when you can design teams around characters who can either kill off of anything or even worse, kill your whole team from that initial confirm. Lowering system damage would even go very far in making things like unblockables or Zero welcomes moderately more stomachable without even re-tweaking them (though they still should get reworked) since it'd require either way more resources or a set of excellent resets in order to get the KO from the initial hit.

X-Factor stuff I'm kinda holding my tongue on since everyone's going to get very excitable over it. I will at least say that I liked someone's suggestion of X-Factor being the Roman Cancel + a set one level additional bonus (preferably between current XF1 and XF2) with the duration scaling with how many characters are left on the team (the fewer characters, the longer the length). Fixing things like XF bonuses multiplying with certain install supers is also a no-brainer.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Also, any combo that does more than 850k for one bar unless you're a big body is probably too much. So you can add guys like Spencer.
Personally speaking any combo that does over 750K solo for one bar is too high. That's a TOD on 2 characters in the game.

And this does not even include stuff like assist combos and DHCs. I mean when you factor in assists, Iron Man does a million damage free for 1 bar.. so now we should nerf Iron Man too?

I would actually not be opposed to nerfing Iron Man/s special damage scaling (it's at a high 30% right now) if I got solid buffs for him in return. Characters like Doom, Vergil and Zero will for SURE be getting nerfs to their combos on top of the universal damage nerf... otherwise there would be a huge parity in characters which we obviously don't want.


The goal of damage nerf is obviously to avoid easy mode TODs. I really don't know who would be alienated by this... the scrubs who already don't use optimized combos and get bodied by Lightning Loops all day? Or the pros who want the damage in this game to be lowered since day 1?
 

Frantic

Member
Unibeam holds opponents in place and keeps them standing... Plasma Beam does not. Plasma Beam has the advantage of coming out behind the opponent where as Iron Man comes where the opponent is standing making it easier to be punished. For a few characters Unibeam is preferable.
That's kinda what I mean. With Unibeam, you can go for additional mixups even on hit whereas Plasma Beam doesn't really have that since it causes soft-knockdown. Additionally, since they're left standing, you have more combo opportunities than with Plasma Beam, so you end up getting more damage off a Unibeam than you would a Plasma Beam.

Of course, that's just my perspective. Maybe everyone would pick Plasma Beam regardless of whether or not Iron-Man and Doom are equally good and whether or not Doom came out behind or in the same spot as Iron-Man. I'd personally pick Unibeam 99% of the time.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Unibeam scales more than Plasma Beam IIRC so characters who don't have trouble getting full combos off of Plasma Beam would be fine keeping it. Plasma Beam also comes out faster than Unibeam so in a beam vs beam war it will stuff out Unibeam if they are both called at the same time.
 

Frantic

Member
Unibeam scales more than Plasma Beam IIRC so characters who don't have trouble getting full combos off of Plasma Beam would be fine keeping it. Plasma Beam also comes out faster than Unibeam so in a beam vs beam war it will stuff out Unibeam if they are both called at the same time.
Aren't they both the same amount of hits(8)? And the main thing about Unibeam is that you get the full normal combos, so stuff like Wesker's Palm into OTG into wallbounce, Dante's Stinger > Volcano, Strange's Impact Palm etc, etc. It's not a huge difference, but you do end up with more damage/meter than with Plasma Beam.

Plasma Beam is slightly faster, but Unibeam is active longer, so I suppose it depends on which one you want.
 

Frantic

Member
Quick check. Plasma Beam from full screen does 5 hits. Unibeam from full screen does 6. Unibeam probably would be 5 if it came out where Plasma Beam does. Probably.
 
I don't know about damage, but Unibeam definitely causes less hitstun decay than Plasma beam. It's also only 1 frame slower, but I don't know how they interact because beams don't all travel across the screen at the same speed.

EMD L is 7 frames but takes 16 to hit fullscreen, for instance.
 
And this is a problem why? So you can't always punish an assist call with a top 10 character (many would argue top 5), doesn't make him suck or anything. I don't think assists like that need to be changed at all, much how I don't think throw techs need to be changed either in their window or pushback distance. If Dormammu is screwed so hard after a throw tech against Wolverine... then start the match by jumping away instead of walking up to him. Or play Dormammu second and start someone who can handle round start pressure better since Dormammu is particularly terrible at it anyway.
I was just using that as an example. Many idiots would argue Dormammu is top 5, but that is why they are idiots. Top 10 is slightly less silly. Slightly.

Dormammu has the worst start of the round options of any character, by the way. Jumping against Wolverine just gets him crossed under or dive kicked. It's awful.

The point of the assist placement issue is that having assists appear off-screen makes them impossible for most characters to punish. Only true beams can hit them because they're out of reach. Something about that rubs me the wrong way. I just used Dormammu as an example.

The real problem with adding more pushback is how much it would hurt offensive characters, not just at the start of the round but how it would make ground throws a crappier option since they wouldn't be able to continue pressure afterwards. Getting thrown out of throw tech recovery is a separate issue that can be fixed, and you could also take that a step further and make characters still throw invincible for so many frames after they recover from the tech to avoid the rapid grabbing crap.
Why should the ground character get more free pressure after his offense failed? Giving a character's length of width between them means they have to work a bit for it.
 
I have other teams with Wright second, and I just don't see Zero getting much off of dog assist (Dante gets tons of use off it however), and doing the DHC trick to Wright doesn't seem optimal if I'm going for lightning loops, lol. Zero can also die quickly and Wright's pretty free to incoming.

Dante is a fantastic partner for Wright and vise versa, but I know you already know that. As for Zero, it sucks that his assists are kinda crappy so I normally don't agree with him as an anchor but with that team I understand why. Why would missile assist be bad for Zero? I can imagine combined with pizza cutter that it would be stupid annoying.

Also I just thought about a possible combo and I'm curious on how it would work. If you did the Dante and Wright DHC trick and you didn't get enough evidence or just want the kill, I'm curious what would happen if durring million dollars if you wave dashed up with Wright did his overhead for the hard knock down x order in the court. Would the opponent get hit back into the gun shot's or would he go flying out of it. Just thinking.


I just realized that Trask is an anagram for Stark.

AAAAWWWWW SSSSSSHHHHHIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTT

Whaaaaaaaaaat...
 

Dahbomb

Member
If they both get to fire off they basically negate each other and clash evenly.

I have never denied that Unibeam is better than Plasma Beam but it's really the positioning and the character attached that makes the difference.

Now as far as the parameters for what I would consider OP in terms of damage in the game. Note that this does not apply to big bodies but rather the standard 1 million and lower health character types.

*Any character getting off 600-700K meterless damage is too high.

*Any character that can build 2 bars in a combo without extremely situational assists is too much.

*Any character getting above 700K for 1 bar or 500K meterless from a throw is too high.

*Any character getting over 800K damage for 1 bar is too high.

*Any DHC that leads into more than 350K damage is too good (Vergil SS or Zero Sogenmu combos come to mind)

*Any combo that breaks 1 million with 2 assists 1 bar is too good. Hell I would say 1 million for 2 bars no assists is also too high.


When you start breaking it down like that, very few characters actually remain who do "fair" damage in the game. The problem to me is both that some characters have inflated damage and that the overall damage is too high.

I would say that we should start categorizing characters in terms of damage to see who qualify as too much and who qualify as just right or too little.
 

FSLink

Banned
Dante is a fantastic partner for Wright and vise versa, but I know you already know that. As for Zero, it sucks that his assists are kinda crappy so I normally don't agree with him as an anchor but with that team I understand why. Why would missile assist be bad for Zero? I can imagine combined with pizza cutter that it would be stupid annoying.

Also I just thought about a possible combo and I'm curious on how it would work. If you did the Dante and Wright DHC trick and you didn't get enough evidence or just want the kill, I'm curious what would happen if durring million dollars if you wave dashed up with Wright did his overhead for the hard knock down x order in the court. Would the opponent get hit back into the gun shot's or would he go flying out of it. Just thinking.

They should fall into the gunshots, I'll test it out. And Missile assist isn't bad, but I don't feel it's great with Zero since it's variable on where Missile is on the screen when Zero's all over the place, plus Jam Session + lightning + buster is usually way more than enough to get me in anyway; it'd be kind of redundant, lol. Zero's Hadangeki assist is great with his clone super. Is there any good use for his gamma assist aside from extension?...
 
Ok I posted this up in my local city thread on facebook, but since you guys are awesome i thought i"d post it here too. Here it is copy n pasted!

Ok guys it's time step up my game in marvel. I might be having weekends free soon and I'd like to start competing again. Time to stop playing like a cave man! Definitely need to upgrade my tech and put in work, but you guys know how I feel about putting in time in the training room. They say work smart, not hard. I don't like working hard, and I think everyone here is smart so I'm just going to ask you guys instead!

My team is mags(beam)/doom(missiles)/vergil(horizontal dashing slash thing)

Here are the things I'd like to know.

1 - Doom TAC infinites, the easy version, off all directions, both midscreen and corner.

2 - Doom BnB easy mode TAC's for when I don't want to risk going for the infinite. Also all directions and corner/midscreen.

3 - Same as 1/2, but for Mags

3 - Easy mode sword loops with vergil. two scenarios being with no assist, or with doom hidden missiles.

4 - Mixup/pressure strings with vergil/missiles

5 - Conversions for mags off super jump H, missiles hitting opponent raw and mid combo in both normal jump and super jump height.

6 - Conversions for Doom off air to air jump laser, jump laser followed by vergil assist hitting and sending them far off.

7 - Basic mixups on incoming for all 3 characters considering the assists I have.

That's about all I can think of for now. Might ask for more later. I know the theory fighters are strong as fuck here, so once I get my tools down I'll consult with you guys about my gameplan. Feel free to answer, none, some, or all of the above! Thanks for your time peeps.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I am going to make a giant post about character damage and attempt to explain why damage is so high in a few particular cases. Some of these values are not fully optimum but they are around the "average" stuff that you see from practical stuff. No weird God's Beard 800K meterless Poison tip Magneto combos in here.


Zero - Does a million damage off 2 assists.... from a THROW. Can generally kill solo as well from a stray hit. Can do about 900K damage meterless from 2 assists. Probably the most efficient killer in the game next to maybe Hulk.

Why? Damage scaling on his normals and specials is obviously way too high. It's 20% for normals and a whopping 30% for specials which only 2/3 characters in the game have that much (Hulk being one of them). Lightning Loops allow him to chain a bunch of lightning attacks together further inflating his damage to new heights. Remove Loops by taking out soft knockdown property on Lightning and lowering the scaling of his normals to 10% (the average value for most characters like Magneto, still higher than Vergil's) and his specials to 20% (still in the high range but without Loops it's way more controlled).


Vergil - If he has meter he has one of the highest damage combos in the game. If he doesn't have meter his damage potential is less but he can usually easily build the meter in a combo with assists. With 1 bar starting he can do 1.3 million damage which is absurd. If Vergil expends no bars in his combo, his damage is actually very fair and bordering on mediocre especially from air throws. Vergil also has the property of further inflating other characters damage via DHCs in his Spiral Swords, adding over 400K damage in some cases after full combos.

Why? Spiral Swords allows him to loop many specials together and build just enough meter to loop another Spiral Swords in most cases. The more meter he has the more loops he can perform. While Vergil's normal damage scaling is low at 5%, his special scaling is a bit high at 20% allowing his moves like Lunar Phase to do high damage even at max scaling. The problem with him is simple... either you lower his special scaling from 20 to 10 or you make Spiral Swords at 2 bar hyper which makes his damage potential extremely fair.


Magneto - Can perform a 900K combo off of clean hit with a couple of assists rather easily. Has over 700K meterless damage potential with assists. Damage is high but not as high as someone like Zero. Does not usually kill off a throw but does decent damage and most importantly builds a lot of meter especially with assists.

Why? His scaling values are generally all fine, each at 10% which is standard. The problem is the HSD on his loops, he is able to link to other a lot of specials before reaching max HSD. His problem is more a HSD thing than a scaling thing.


Dr Doom - Can do a whopping 1 million damage for 1 bar from 1 assist. Even his solo damage is really high, he can get easy 900K damage. Off of throw he can get 600K meterless damage and with assists and meter... he can get 900K damage. With assists he can easily build 2 bars.

Why? I think the problem is 2 folds. His normal move scaling is high at 20% and since Doom's combos are almost all normals that's why the damage adds up. But it's really the excessive relaunches that allow him to get that high, he is allowed way too many brain dead easy relaunches from the ground which inflates his damage. Hitting him with an either scaling change or a HSD change would fix him easily.


Spencer - Can get easy 1 million+ damage with 2 assists especially near the corner. Damage is a bit lower when solo but still decent. Damage with assists off of a throw is still within TOD range, 2 bars 2 assists nets him 1 million damage.

Why? Probably the easiest character to fix in the game in terms of damage output... his 80K wire grapple move is unscaled damage which inflates his damage a TON over time. This is obviously an overlooked bug because they fixed Spider Man's unscaled Web Throw but not Spencer's.


Strange - Can get 1 million damage for 1 bar and 1 assist. Also has among the highest meter gain in combos, can build 2 bars easily in a combo.

Why? His scaling is mostly fine, it's the HSD on his Flame of the Faltine and Impact Palm attacks which allows him to loop together a lot of FotF attacks in a row before HSD disallows the loop.


Dormammu -Does EASY mode 850K+ damage off a single assist. 2 assists he can break 900K. However the big damage comes from the spells which allows him to cross 1 million territory easily. The main requirement is either spells already charged or assists that allow you to charge or corner. Stalking Flare into spells also adds a ton of DHC damage but this is in corners (which is not that difficult given he has Dark Matter into Teleport combos). Meter build without spells is mediocre but with spells it's quite good.

Why? Spells add a ton of damage but even without spells... why the hell is this character getting 800K damage off of a baby mode wall bounce combo? Both the base and scaling are a bit on the high side (scaling at 20% like Doom) although the scaling never actually comes into play it's really just the base damage that is on the high side. He crosses 800K SOLO for 1 bar before the max damage scaling even comes into play.


Wolverine - Does easy mode 500K meterless damage but caps out at that range rather easily. Another bar means he gets to cross into 750K solo damage. 2 bars means he gets to cross 1 million with 2 bars and an assist. Does not build a lot of meter and gets mediocre meterless damage off of throws but with meter he can tack on 500K damage easily at the end of a meterless combo which is absurd.

Why? The base damage is a bit high for Wolverine, I mean the easy with which he gets 500K meterless is a bit funny. But what's really startling is how much damage that Fatal Claw hyper does at the end of combos, easily adds 250K damage by itself no matter the damage scaling applied. Not only that but the hyper can be linked into itself resulting in easy 1 million damage combos for Wolverine. Wolverine usually can't build that much meter by himself so really the only problem with him is that Fatal Claw itself does too much damage and his base damage can be lowered just a tad bit.


Chris - With assists Chris has among the highest meterless damage in the game (750K meterless with 2 assists, probably even higher) and with the ability to link his supers he can break 1 million relatively easily off of 1 bar. Even off of throws he gets huge damage with assists.

Why? Chris has low mix ups so obviously his base damage should be high. His scaling is low so obviously that's not the problem. The problem is the Flamethrower which adds a BOAT LOAD of damage even at max damage scaling. Reducing the damage of the Flamethrower would normalize Chris' combos a bit. The Flamethrower is essentially an 80K equivalent.


Shuma Gorath - Easily breaks 1 million in the corner even solo off of just 1 bar. Gets extremely similar damage from throws. 700K+ meterless damage, is able to link hypers although in some cases he doesn't even need to.

Why? Obviously an issue in his scaling. It should be noted that he only gets absurd damage in corners.


Hulk - One of the highest damage characters in the game, getting EASY 1.3 million damage combos from 2 assists off of just one bar. Even off of a throw he gets very similar damage, about a million there as well from assists.

Why? Hulk is a big body so he is not designed to be getting in a lot of hits so when he does get a hit he is supposed to hit hard. His base damage is high because of this. However his scaling on both his normals and specials is the HIGHEST in the game at 30% each. This allows Hulk to get 1 million damage off of baby mode relaunch combos. Add to that one of his hypers the Gamma Crush tacks in a lot of damage at the end of combos as does a properly positioned Gamma Wave.


Viper - Gets 700K+ meterless damage without assists and can build 2 bars in a combo. Utilizing that meter she can break 1 million solo. Can get very good damage off of throws as well.

Why? The problem here is two folds. Definitely the high 20% scaling for both normals and specials is the culprit, even at the end of combos she is tacking on the damage a lot. However even at the start of combos she is getting a good 600K meterless damage before max damage scaling is kicking in. Either it's a problem in HSD or a problem in her base damage. I think scaling nerf is fine for her though if there is a universal damage nerf.


Iron Man - Can do 1 million 1 bar 2 assists. Other than that his damage is ordinary for this game.

Why? 30% scaling on his specials means any time he does a few too many Repulsar Blasts or Smart Bombs in a combo, even at max damage the damage starts to add up. The meterless damage for Iron Man off of regular hits and throws is fair for this game. His normal damage scaling is at a regular 10%.


Thor - Gets big damage with assists (1 million damage for 1 bar) that allow him to get in some Sparks or Strikes. Does similar damage off of command throw as well. Can also link his Mighty Tornados together for bigger damage.

Why? Mighty Spark (at close range) adds a lot of damage at the end of combos. Other than that it just seems like a base damage issue for being a big body especially his hyper when mashed. Definitely needs assists to do big damage though.
 

Darksim

Member
Dormammu has the worst start of the round options of any character, by the way. Jumping against Wolverine just gets him crossed under or dive kicked. It's awful.

I don't really want to start this argument, but he really can't be the worst, is his jump speed that slow that he can't start the match with jump back twice > super jump away once the match begins and then air dash/teleport around or something? Why don't you try s.S + assist or something derp like that after jumping away

Why should the ground character get more free pressure after his offense failed? Giving a character's length of width between them means they have to work a bit for it.

Because upback is absurdly safe and it's really not easy to get people to stay on the ground to begin with? Giving space means Doom gets to jump back footdive, Vergil gets to jump back Helm Breaker or as I said before press H or S shutting down all possible offense against him minus Hulk pretty much. It isn't even that characters now have to work for pressure afterwards, they just don't get it at all after they worked to get the other character to stand on the ground in the first place making ground throws a really shitty option.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Worst character at the start has to be Dr Strange. At least Dorm has good buttons in the air and good anti air normals... Thor as well is pretty shit at start.
 

Azure J

Member
Dorm loses start of round that badly? I won't make any judgements because I don't play Dorm but something sounds really off about that.

Also, we can't use Wolverine exclusively as an example of start of round stuff because EVERYONE loses to Wolverine currently at match start.
 

JeTmAn81

Member
My Haggar team has Dorm on it and I love having lariat assist to back me up whenever I end up playing Dorm on point. Really shores up his weaknesses close up.
 

Dahbomb

Member
what about a universal nerf on launchers? maybe make them -5 on block?
Most are unsafe, there just a few exceptions. Probably would change it on a character by character basis although for most it's not really a big deal as they are still at least -1 on block and can be punished via chicken block.

And HOLY SHIT Capcom announced Strider (Rearmed style)!
 
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