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[Karsticles]

Putting techs out of jab range would give advantage to sword normal and armor characters. You may be out of Wolverine jab range but out of Vergil jab range? Putting it further than that means now Vergil gets free st.H and he wins over every character in the game because as far as I know no move has that much range plus speed ratio unless you burn meter with Ghost Rider for a snap back. Also gives advantage to Hulk, as if he needed more advantage.

It's too tough to call on how much the distance is needed where most characters would be at an equal footing. I think it's best to just keep it simple and put it out of re-throw tech range.

This is incorrect. The difference between being out of range of Wolverine's jab and Vergil's jab is that Wolverine's jab comes out in 4 frames, which is the same amount of time it takes to jump, and Vergil's jab comes out in 6 frames. So against Wolverine, I go from being throw teched to getting hit by s.L + assist call. Against Vergil, I might be able to maneuever out of the way. And I am sure as hell not scared of Vergil's s.H after a throw tech.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71230741]Skrull's dhalsim normals have no hurtbox.[/quote]
Which is a good thing.

The I told you so is coming next year when he's agreed-upon #1 ^_^

Hahaha, no way. If anything, Magneto got stomped this year. The only Magneto player in top 8 is FChamp.

I thought this was about realistic changes though. Don't think they would do it.

The most realistic change is no change. Reducing damage all around is just as likely to happen as any changes to TACs, X-Factor, assists, etc.

 

[Dahbomb]

Vergil's jab is 5 frames. When Vergil gets you to block a st.H that's when his pressure starts so essentially whenever a ground tech would happen Vergil will always start his offense while the other person has to block it. Unless they are an armor character.

And you won't get st.L plus assist pressure because assist is in a short cooldown now after throw tech.

 

[Karsticles]

Vergil's jab is 5 frames. When Vergil gets you to block a st.H that's when his pressure starts so essentially whenever a ground tech would happen Vergil will always start his offense while the other person has to block it.

The guide says s.L is 6 frames and c.L is 5 frames. Did they get it backwards?

s.H comes out in 10 frames. In a neutral situation, I'm not even there by the time it comes out. Moving characters out of s.L range for all characters would be fine.

 

[Dahbomb]

No they got it right I was talking about cr.L of Vergil. You don't really press st.L with Vergil after throw tech because someone like Wolverine can easily make it whiff and cr.L you.

If other people are fine with this then I don't care much. Darksim brought it up and it made sense to me at least. You should probably discuss it with him first.

I would just make it a vague suggestion without going into exact character length. Without testing it's hard to know what impact it would have on the game.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Is it Dante and Nemesis time yet?

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71234271]Is it Dante and Nemesis time yet?[/QUOTE]
I don't know why you'd be so excited about Dante changes. He needs very little done to him. I'll need a lot of convincing to do any more than give him the 1 nerf I've been planning.

 

[Frantic]

Aren't we going to nerf Vergil's normals a little anyways? Cuz seriously, they go beyond the actual animation.

 

[QisTopTier]

You aren't for a universal damage nerf?

Well seeing how characters like Felicia have damage around the area you'd expect it to be

Spoiler

Not counting her level 3 set up stuff

a universal nerf would be a bit silly.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I don't know why you'd be so excited about Dante changes. He needs very little done to him. I'll need a lot of convincing to do any more than give him the 1 nerf I've been planning.

I wanna buff his snapback

 

[Karsticles]

Aren't we going to nerf Vergil's normals a little anyways? Cuz seriously, they go beyond the actual animation.

Just a smidge beyond the animation, but I don't think his normals need nerfing. He's the only character in the game whose normals are not special cancelable. They need to be huge.

Well seeing how characters like Felicia have damage around the area you'd expect it to be

Spoiler

Not counting her level 3 set up stuff

a universal nerf would be a bit silly.

It's more like a universal health buff, which is in effect a universal health nerf. I want the game to be more like Marvel 2, where it was worthwhile to juggle the team's health around. I think that makes for a better, more strategic game.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71234871]I wanna buff his snapback[/QUOTE]
Oh? What's wrong with it?

 

[QisTopTier]

It's more like a universal health buff, which is in effect a universal health nerf. I want the game to be more like Marvel 2, where it was worthwhile to juggle the team's health around. I think that makes for a better, more strategic game.

Wouldn't this require every zoner outside of Morigan/Dorm/Chris to get a damage boost on their projectiles though?

Those there wouldn't be able to have their projectile damage nerfed either

 

[Karsticles]

Wouldn't this require every zoner outside of Morigan/Dorm/Chris to get a damage boost on their projectiles though?

I just plan on advocating a substantial chip damage boost. I don't see the problem in the actual zoning damage being low. Spiral and Cable don't do a ton of damage in Marvel 2 in their neutral.

 

[Dahbomb]

Aren't we going to nerf Vergil's normals a little anyways? Cuz seriously, they go beyond the actual animation.

The only two normals of Vergil that are actually extended beyond the animation a considerable amount are st.H and Helm Breaker. Helm Breaker has hit circles extending posteriorly which is what allows him to hit you with his cape. St.H has a horizontal bubble that extends well beyond that visual animation. The rest of his normals are generally as they appear on screen. St.S is pretty absurd but it actually looks huge.

Wouldn't this require every zoner outside of Morigan/Dorm/Chris to get a damage boost on their projectiles though?

Those there wouldn't be able to have their projectile damage nerfed either

Chip damage would be increased from 30% to 35%-40% depending upon how much damage nerf we are talking about. I made some big number crunching posts on it on the previous page.

Honestly speaking any universal damage nerf that requires over 40% chip damage to balance is too much. We should be encouraging more patient and solid play, when you keep upping chip damage and overall health that makes players less likely to block. This just makes the game more into "you block, you die".

 

[Karsticles]

The only two normals of Vergil that are actually extended beyond the animation a considerable amount are st.H and Helm Breaker. Helm Breaker has hit circles extending posteriorly which is what allows him to hit you with his cape. St.H has a horizontal bubble that extends well beyond that visual animation. The rest of his normals are generally as they appear on screen.

Oh yeah, screw the hitbox on the back end of Vergil's Helm Breaker.

Chip damage would be increased from 30% to 35%-40% depending upon how much damage nerf we are talking about.

Honestly speaking any universal damage nerf that requires over 40% chip damage to balance is too much. We should be encouraging more patient and solid play, when you keep upping chip damage and overall health that makes players less likely to block. This just makes the game more into "you block, you die".

I'm just saying to buff chip damage at the same % we buff everyone's health. Since my goal is a 50% health buff across the board, I say a 50% chip damage buff.

Also, there are a ton of benefits to hitting characters with projectiles instead of them being blocked aside from the health.

 

[Frantic]

Well, I'm a salty Dante player who has hitboxes that don't extend to the end of the animation, and are amongst the slowest set of normals in the game, so take my Vergil suggestions with a grain of salt. ;P

 

[Dahbomb]

Well, I'm a salty Dante player who has hitboxes that don't extend to the end of the animation, and are amongst the slowest set of normals in the game, so take my Vergil suggestions with a grain of salt. ;P

Dante players can whiff normals into specials, Vergil can't.

Vergil will get solid nerfs, don't you worry.

I'm just saying to buff chip damage at the same % we buff everyone's health. Since my goal is a 50% health buff across the board, I say a 50% chip damage buff..

Did you read my calculations? 50% chip is borderline crazy even when overall damage is nerfed 50%. Anything above 40% chip is too high unless you plan to nerf damage by 60%. At 40% chip with 40-50% damage nerf, that's still more advantage than zoners have now in UMVC3.

 

[Frantic]

Dante players can whiff normals into specials, Vergil can't.

Well, when Vergil can cancel into Spiral Swords or Devil Trigger on a whiff, I find the argument of 'HE CAN'T WHIFF' to be pretty moot. The fact he can't cancel into specials on whiff almost never comes into play at the high levels outside the occasional whiffed Stinger.

I just find the 'can't whiff' thing to be an incredibly lazy way to 'balance' the fact they gave him ridiculous fast, large normals. But I suppose that's a conversation for whenever Vergil changes come into play.

 

[Dahbomb]

What if I told you that Vergil's Spiral Swords are going to be a 2 bar hyper in this patch...

And top players have lost matches over Vergil's whiffed normals. Even happened at EVO top 8.

 

[Frantic]

What if I told you that Vergil's Spiral Swords are going to be a 2 bar hyper in this patch...

Then I'd be pretty okay.

And top players have lost matches over Vergil's whiffed normals. Even happened at EVO top 8.

Which matches? I don't really remember any particular matches that his recovery/lack of special cancel cost him a match.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Oh? What's wrong with it?

I just want to make it +2 on block from -3. There are inescapable situations that only work on Dante because he has the worst startup of any of his moves of any character in the game with no escape tools(invincibility, super armor, etc).

For instance, he's the only character in the game that has to eat a command grab mixup off a raw gunshot from glasses-off Wesker. Any other character can stuff wesker. Even Nemesis with his 7-frame command grab.

I think it's fair to be able to spend a bar and not get trip guarded.

 

[SloaneRisette]

Real talk I wanna see what y'all say about Cap.

 

[Dahbomb]

Man I don't wanna go through the archives again but it has happened particularly like you said on Stinger (I think it was thay Zak guy, his Vergil was kinda fradulent)). ChrisG himself has threw away the character by tossing out random Stingers although Chris does it on purpose because he wants you to run into Missiles while trying to punish Vergil.

By the way some characters have slower snapback travel time than others... like Vergil and Dorm. These characters can't trade with Spiral Swords with their snapback because of this very minor detail.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Other than Spiral Swords and his 2H, I don't think Vergil's that great.

But Magneto bodies him free so I'm biased.

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71241321]I just want to make it +2 on block from -3. There are inescapable situations that only work on Dante because he has the worst startup of any of his moves of any character in the game with no escape tools(invincibility, super armor, etc).

For instance, he's the only character in the game that has to eat a command grab mixup off a raw gunshot from glasses-off Wesker. Any other character can stuff wesker. Even Nemesis with his 7-frame command grab.

I think it's fair to be able to spend a bar and not get trip guarded.[/QUOTE]
I think snapbacks should universally be 2 frames on startup and be +1 on block. Anyone disagree with that?

And if anyone wants an example of a Vergil whiff resulting in his demise, look at the Yipes vs. Wright video. Whiffed stinger gets him killed.

 

[Dahbomb]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71242291]Other than Spiral Swords and his 2H, I don't think Vergil's that great.

But Magneto bodies him free so I'm biased.[/QUOTE]
Vergil still has DT mode with XF with which he can wipe out your team. Not a single Spiral Sword required.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I think snapbacks should universally be 2 frames on startup and be +1 on block. Anyone disagree with that?
.

Nope, they're the game's universal DP.

Vergil still has DT mode with XF with which he can wipe out your team. Not a single Spiral Sword required.

Lots of characters can wipe out teams. Spiral Swords is just especially hard to block.

 

[Dahbomb]

I don't disagree either as long as you make the travel time of all snapback attacks instant so they are true 2 frame attack.

Spiral Swords is SUPER easy to block. It's not even a mix up. The mix up is after SS is over.

Unless you are in DT mode in which case you get nastier mix ups off Blistering Swords for that 2 meter.

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71242731]Lots of characters can wipe out teams. Spiral Swords is just especially hard to block.[/QUOTE]
If you watched the Marn vs. Xiao set just now, Marn did Rapid Slash into Spiral Swords, then Devil Trigger, and then double box jumped over Xiao.

 

["God's Beard!"]

If you watched the Marn vs. Xiao set just now, Marn did Rapid Slash into Spiral Swords, then Devil Trigger, and then double box jumped over Xiao.

Show me, Marn is my favorite.

Spiral Swords is SUPER easy to block. It's not even a mix up.

It's a mixup catalyst -_-

 

[Frantic]

It's always whiffed Stinger that gets Vergil killed. That move has 50 recovery frames. I'm mainly talking about something like s.L whiffing and resulting him in getting killed. Almost never comes into play, so there's no reason it should be as enormous as it is, IMO.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71241321]I just want to make it +2 on block from -3. There are inescapable situations that only work on Dante because he has the worst startup of any of his moves of any character in the game with no escape tools(invincibility, super armor, etc).

For instance, he's the only character in the game that has to eat a command grab mixup off a raw gunshot from glasses-off Wesker. Any other character can stuff wesker. Even Nemesis with his 7-frame command grab.

I think it's fair to be able to spend a bar and not get trip guarded.[/QUOTE]What do you mean by this, exactly?

 

[Dahbomb]

St.L gets beat by a lot of sweeps so if you see a Vergil trying to play footsies with that use Wesker's cr.M or something to beat it. I learned that first hand day 1-2 of UMVC3.

St.L is an anti air move for the most part. And at least it's not chainable... huehuehuehue

I think the absolute worst (non engine/glitch related) aspect of Vergil is HSH string after Helm Breaker. Shit is beyond scrubby. Yes I know there are ways to counter it but it still ends up being a 50/50 read. That's basically Vergil in a nut shell, most aspects about him are counterable or beatable but sometimes it's such a crap shoot and the risk/reward ratio is not favorable.

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71243216]Show me, Marn is my favorite.[/QUOTE]
Check his stream archives when they come up.

And no one can ever force someone into a ground command grab. If you hold up it always whiffs.

 

[Frantic]

St.L gets beat by a lot of sweeps so if you see a Vergil trying to play footsies with that use Wesker's cr.M or something to beat it. I learned that first hand day 1-2 of UMVC3.

None of my characters really have that ability, though.

And, honestly, I do well against Vergil for the most part. I just hate the balancing decisions behind the character. Makes zero sense.

I think the absolute worst (non engine/glitch related) aspect of Vergil is HSH string after Helm Breaker. Shit is beyond scrubby. Yes I know there are ways to counter it but it still ends up being a 50/50 read.

Honestly, the SH string is stupid in general. He's the only character that can swing his launcher and make it safe on chicken block.

 

[Dahbomb]

HSH string is really susceptible to push block whiffing though. Basically if you know they are gonna do it, push block the H and the S whiffs. You won't get a punish all the time but at least you can start your game. You just need to do it before they cancel into a Judgment Cut. Good players just do HSH Judgment Cut now.

It's still silly though.

 

[Frantic]

HSH string is really susceptible to push block whiffing though. Basically if you know they are gonna do it, push block the H and the S whiffs. You won't get a punish all the time but at least you can start your game. You just need to do it before they cancel into a Judgment Cut. Good players just do HSH Judgment Cut now.

It's still silly though.

Yeah, I know. It's just the fact he can cancel his launcher into something else on block when no other character(outside of Viper on the first hit of her launcher) can just irritates me. It's one of those dumb exceptions to the rule(much like Bold Block) that really shouldn't be there IMO.

 

["God's Beard!"]

It's always whiffed Stinger that gets Vergil killed. That move has 50 recovery frames. I'm mainly talking about something like s.L whiffing and resulting him in getting killed. Almost never comes into play, so there's no reason it should be as enormous as it is, IMO.

What do you mean by this, exactly?

Wesker is -7 after a gunshot teleport and Dante's fastest move is 8 frames. So it's basically you hold up and pray to god he doesn't feel like air throwing people. He can literally mash gunshot teleport vs dante all day until he anti airs you with it, gets a command grab or you get lucky on a snapback.

 

[Frantic]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71250691]Wesker is -7 after a gunshot teleport and Dante's fastest move is 8 frames. So it's basically you hold up and pray to god he doesn't feel like air throwing people. He can literally mash gunshot teleport vs dante all day until he anti airs you with it, gets a command grab or you get lucky on a snapback.[/QUOTE]At -7, Dante can hit cr.L to force Wesker to block and regain momentum. The command throw won't come out fast enough. Or Dante could throw him out if he's close enough. Or he could chicken block the gunshot for an easier punish. Or he could use Drive to duck under the gunshot and punish Wesker as he appears. Or he could duck the gunshot and punish it easily.

The only time gunshot really causes Dante issues is when it's backed by Disrupter assist, and even then it's managable.

 

["God's Beard!"]

You know, you're working really hard to convince karst not to let me buff dante :-(

 

[Frantic]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71255481]You know, you're working really hard to convince karst not to let me buff dante :-([/QUOTE]oh

In that case, let me edit my post real fast before he notices!

 

[Zissou]

I think snapbacks should universally be 2 frames on startup and be +1 on block. Anyone disagree with that?

I like this idea. I don't know why they have character-specific frame data for snaps anyway. It would help a lot of characters with wack defensive options.

 

[Professor Beef]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71255481]You know, you're working really hard to convince karst not to let me buff dante :-([/QUOTE]

Good, fuck Dante.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Why is Marn dropping Strider :-(

Vergil is his worst character, he should play Zero/Dante/Strider

 

[EsotericManiac]

trying to gravitate from the vita to the ps3 for the fight stick. it's going alright. Doom TACs aren't too hard, but I have a huge problem doing things with vergil like up-slash XFC super jump or combo -> rising sun -> teleport down -> super jump

 

[Dahbomb]

Yeah, I know. It's just the fact he can cancel his launcher into something else on block when no other character(outside of Viper on the first hit of her launcher) can just irritates me. It's one of those dumb exceptions to the rule(much like Bold Block) that really shouldn't be there IMO.

Hey man exceptions to the rule is what makes the game fun. If we started talking about single characters who have a mechanic that is unlike any other character in the game, we would be here for a while.

 

["God's Beard!"]

The problem with Doom's launcher being cancelable on block is that nobody cancels it on block.

 

[EsotericManiac]

is it flight/super cancel?

didn't know that

 

[SloaneRisette]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71328741]The problem with Doom's launcher being cancelable on block is that nobody cancels it on block.[/QUOTE]

It is?

I mean, I'm not that great with Doom, but I didn't quite know it (plus generally everyone I've fought has advancing guarded it)

Also, just as a general question-- probably won't dig too deep into this, but what would be a good team for a point Doom?

 

[EsotericManiac]

It is?

I mean, I'm not that great with Doom, but I didn't quite know it (plus generally everyone I've fought has advancing guarded it)

Also, just as a general question-- probably won't dig too deep into this, but what would be a good team for a point Doom?

dios x runs point doom with storm and sentinel.

i love watching his point doom

 

[SloaneRisette]

dios x runs point doom with storm and sentinel.

i love watching his point doom

Completely forgot about Dios X for a minute there, lol. Still wondering about other team compositions that could be good for Doom though.

 

[Dahbomb]

It is?

I mean, I'm not that great with Doom, but I didn't quite know it (plus generally everyone I've fought has advancing guarded it)

Also, just as a general question-- probably won't dig too deep into this, but what would be a good team for a point Doom?

People advance guard it because it's safe on block.

Probably Jam Session and Drones with a side of Vajra.