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["God's Beard!"]

Findmyfarms, you on PSN?

Magneto - Can perform a 900K combo off of clean hit with a couple of assists rather easily. Has over 700K meterless damage potential with assists. Damage is high but not as high as someone like Zero. Does not usually kill off a throw but does decent damage and most importantly builds a lot of meter especially with assists.

lol, he can get 850k off one bar if he starts the combo with a jS into2H, you do a blast loop and your opponent is really fat.

700k meterless is weird GB combo status, a really strong Magneto combo does 540-620k meterless with assists. 350k off a throw if you're saucy.

Magneto isn't a super high damage character, but he can build a crap ton of meter. Especially with Hidden Missiles. 2 bars on the cleanest of hits and two really really good assists. But 1.5 is pretty common.

1 Million damage for 1 bar with Thor is wishful thinking. You're also overvaluing Shuma and Strange's damage.

Spencer can actually do more than you think.

 

[kevo_huevo]

GGs Kevo Huevo. Man I was dropping so much shit and it wasn't because of lag.

Ggs as always, Slasher. Not sure why we got dropped.
I think I need to snap in Wesker ASAP. I didn't even notice you dropping that many combos tbh, I thought the connection was manageable as I was doing fly/unfly loops with nova (which I really only attempt if the connection is good). But damn man, I really think I could have won more if I got rid of your damn Wesker lol

 

[Dahbomb]

1 Million damage for 1 bar with Thor is wishful thinking. You're also overvaluing Shuma and Strange's damage.

Dr Strange solo combo = 750K meterless, 900K total 2 bars built in combo

Dr Strange 1 assist used 1 million damage for 1 bar

Can go high with another assist, I have seen so myself. At the very least the damage is higher than Magneto's.


Shuma Gorath 1 million damage combo solo off of grab, builds 2 bars

I don't know how I am "undervaluing" the damage on these combos.


Thor 975K combo 1 bar 2 assists.

Alright I was a bit optimistic on Thor but he definitely hits hard no doubt about that. But no way did I undervalue Shuma/Strange damage, that shit was legit.


And I know Spencer can do more than that, as I know both Shuma and Strange can do more than a million.


Also my reference for the Magneto numbers:

900K 2 assists 1 bar, 700K meterless

Also 900K solo corner combo

 

["God's Beard!"]

I dunno, man. I'm always mistrusting of Dr.Strange videos because of how position-centric they are. I don't know if they're really BnBs.

I dunno if I'd call Shuma's combos "easily 1 million for 1 bar" but I'm not denying he kills people.

Thor one is definitely GB weirdness status lol

Magneto one also isn't a real BnB, but it's not too far off. Realistically you're gonna lose about 50-70k off that combo though.

 

[Dahbomb]

Can we at least agree that those characters do a shit ton of damage? That was the whole point of the post lol.

I mean if a character is doing a combo that does 900K for 1 bar while the combo itself built 2 bars... that's a problem. Depending on who the DHC character is, that's a good 200K-250K damaged added on... unless it's Vergil in which case it's even higher.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Lol that EMP loop combo

If someone lands that in a tournament I'll pay them ten bucks. That's obscene, and it still doesn't do 900k.

That combo is probably harder to land than the X-23 TAC infinite.

Can we at least agree that those characters do a shit ton of damage? That was the whole point of the post lol.

I mean if a character is doing a combo that does 900K for 1 bar while the combo itself built 2 bars... that's a problem. Depending on who the DHC character is, that's a good 200K-250K damaged added on... unless it's Vergil in which case it's even higher.

Yeah, but you can't say weird combos don't count and then use almost exclusively weird combos to prove your point.

 

[Dahbomb]

The weird combo part was a joke.

They count in the extent that they show potential, that's why I used that word a lot. While you mostly use BnBs to gauge character damage a lot of the times assists muddle up that damage number and some teams are just designed around fully optimizing damage for a point character, which isn't rare to see. I don't think we will see a Vergil 1.3 million damage combo any time soon... but it does exist and it can happen.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Assists are fine, jS, 2H in the corner with bolts as Thor isn't lol

 

[Zissou]

Dahbomb- what are you using as your reference for your Doom damage number? I don't think Maziodyne loops can be used as the reference for typical bnb damage due to their unreliability in many situations (in the corner this isn't an issue).

 

[Dahbomb]

Dahbomb- what are you using as your reference for your Doom damage number? I don't think Maziodyne loops can be used as the reference for typical bnb damage due to their unreliability in many situations (the in the corner this isn't an issue).

Well they aren't typical BnB numbers. Doom can definitely get those numbers near a corner though.

Also the numbers were used from combos where they did the old super finishers, I think now people have figured out that doing Hidden Missile into ground Photon Array does an ass load of damage.

 

[Zissou]

Well they aren't typical BnB numbers. Doom can definitely get those numbers in a corner though.

Also the numbers were used from combos where they did the old super finishers, I think now people have figured out that doing Hidden Missile into ground Photon Array does an ass load of damage.

That only improves damage on one specific team comp (Doom/Dante)

edit:

From the Strider thread, I am choosing to believe that a Capcom-only versus game (Capcom All-Stars) is going to happen due to this image:

Spoiler

i am a fool

 

[Dahbomb]

That only improves damage on one specific team comp (Doom/Dante)

I have seen other team compositions use it as well like Miniboss did it at Curleh Mustache which was what got him the reward for "swagging" out.

Looks like we haven't made much progress on the whole damage/XF changes today. Tomorrow is assist changes day so we should probably come at a majority conclusion or something.

And I am officially on the Capcom All Star hype train. NOTHING IS STOPPING THIS TRAIN!!!

Spoiler

Except for a Marvel patch or MVC4

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Ok I posted this up in my local city thread on facebook, but since you guys are awesome i thought i"d post it here too. Here it is copy n pasted!

Ok guys it's time step up my game in marvel. I might be having weekends free soon and I'd like to start competing again. Time to stop playing like a cave man! Definitely need to upgrade my tech and put in work, but you guys know how I feel about putting in time in the training room. They say work smart, not hard. I don't like working hard, and I think everyone here is smart so I'm just going to ask you guys instead!

My team is mags(beam)/doom(missiles)/vergil(horizontal dashing slash thing)

Here are the things I'd like to know.

1 - Doom TAC infinites, the easy version, off all directions, both midscreen and corner.

2 - Doom BnB easy mode TAC's for when I don't want to risk going for the infinite. Also all directions and corner/midscreen.

3 - Same as 1/2, but for Mags

3 - Easy mode sword loops with vergil. two scenarios being with no assist, or with doom hidden missiles.

4 - Mixup/pressure strings with vergil/missiles

5 - Conversions for mags off super jump H, missiles hitting opponent raw and mid combo in both normal jump and super jump height.

6 - Conversions for Doom off air to air jump laser, jump laser followed by vergil assist hitting and sending them far off.

7 - Basic mixups on incoming for all 3 characters considering the assists I have.

That's about all I can think of for now. Might ask for more later. I know the theory fighters are strong as fuck here, so once I get my tools down I'll consult with you guys about my gameplan. Feel free to answer, none, some, or all of the above! Thanks for your time peeps.

Someone help this man. The questions related to Doom are relevant to my interests.

Speaking of the Doom infinite specifically, are there any easier variations for looping it than: low altitude butter gun -> delayed j.L -> land -> jump -> j.L?

 

[Zissou]

I have seen other team compositions use it as well like Miniboss did it at Curleh Mustache which was what got him the reward for "swagging" out.

Looks we haven't made much progress on the whole damage/XF changes today. Tomorrow is assist changes day so we should probably come at a majority conclusion or something.

And I am officially on the Capcom All Star hype train. NOTHING IS STOPPING THIS TRAIN!!!

Spoiler

Except for a Marvel patch or MVC4

The debate on certain things will more difficult. I feel like as far as system-wide changes go we have:

ABSOLUTELY NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED BECAUSE THEY'RE BULLSHIT TIER:
TACs (though there are many different ways to fix them, everyone agrees something must be done)

Debatable tier:
Just about everything else. It gets murky- do we need a system-wide damage nerf or just character specific changes? What about throws/throw techs? Sure, they could be better, but they're not horrible or anything currently, so we may risk breaking something by altering them.

 

[Zissou]

Someone help this man. The questions related to Doom are relevant to my interests.

Speaking of the Doom infinite specifically, are there any easier variations for looping it than: low altitude butter gun -> delayed j.L -> land -> jump -> j.L?

Yeah, you can do low altitude plasma beam and instead of butter gun. This video is good.

 

[Dahbomb]

I think outside of actual glitches and TACs... not a lot of stuff NEEDS changing in system mechanics. Even XF doesn't NEED changing, it's functional the way it is now just change the way buffs stack, that's a change that needs to happen. Adding throw invincibility after teching is also a change that needs to happen or something of its equivalent as well as no more down + forward moves for throw option selects. I would also add that overhead raw tags are quite dumb.

I am also a huge proponent of altering the way characters come in, the way they come in forward really exaggerates some of the ambiguity in the game when it comes to cross under tactics. There's a really, really dumb Nova mix up that involves this where you just box dash towards the opponent as they are coming in and you go through them, clipping them on the back of the had with an auto corrected j.H. Shit like that doesn't happen when someone is just simply falling down vertically from a super jump height for example. I am pretty sure every character in the game has a dumb mix up based around this. When people say "oh that guy hit by something random" most of the time they are referring to something regarding the incoming mix up.

 

[Frantic]

I would also add that overhead raw tags are quite dumb.

It should really be a mid hit. Leave it otherwise the same, but the fact you can bait people into anticipating a raw tag on a roll or something and then wake up with a cr.L is dumb.

 

[Zissou]

It should really be a mid hit. Leave it otherwise the same, but the fact you can bait people into anticipating a raw tag on a roll or something and then wake up with a cr.L is dumb.

I agree with this completely. Getting clipped by a low because you were blocking high expecting the overhead hit from a raw tag is some stupid shit.

As far as changes go, have we ever agreed on general guidelines? Something like:

Goals
1) Reduce/weaken/eliminate the times when marvel truly becomes a one player game (Morridoom, Zero incoming mix-ups and incoming mix-ups in general, exceedingly long combos, etc.)
2) Get rid of (true) randomness when possible (i.e., TACs need to be changed, maximum Wesker and maximum Vergil randomly crossing up, etc.)
3) Make more characters/team compositions viable to foster a variety of viable playstyles, even at high level play

What else? All of the above is operating on the assumption that we should change as much as necessary but as little as possible. The more changes are made, the more players will have to start over from scratch, and more likely it becomes that in trying to fix one thing, something unforeseen ends up breaking as a result.

 

[Dahbomb]

Those goals are already the cornerstone for this patch.

My change request for the trajectory of incoming character falls into #2 and some what #1.

Also no one is going to be nerfing mix ups unless they are incoming unblockables. Zero having his damage nerfed while also having his mix ups nerfed would be crazy. You can't have Marvel without the hard to block stuff.

 

[sephi22]

#WhensMarvelPatch

Evo made me want to get back to Marvel again, but I can't help but feel that the game has peaked. Even the SRK threads get bumped only once in 2-3 days

 

[Ghazi]

That only improves damage on one specific team comp (Doom/Dante)

edit:

From the Strider thread, I am choosing to believe that a Capcom-only versus game (Capcom All-Stars) is going to happen due to this image:

Spoiler

i am a fool

Am i the only one who laughed their ass off at that image when it says "no recordings, no camera's" at the bottom right? Regardless, I'm super hyped for this game although I never played the originals. But yeah, Capcom All Stars is bound to happen.


Also, I picked up Shuma from the XBL sale and I've got to say I'm liking him. How well do you guys think he'd work on point for Dante/Doom + Vergil team?

 

[riskVSreward]

Can anyone give me some Doom TAC advice? I'm getting really good at linking the falling j.l into j.lm to keep the loop going, but for some reason it seems like I drop it almost every time in the corner. It breaks off between the j.l and m which almost never happens midscreen, it's an easy chain part of the combo so unless Im going too slow it shouldn't drop there. I don't know if it's because I did something earlier in the combo that lowers the hit stun too much or if it's that the corner makes the hitbox shrink but it's really really annoying. If anyone has a good tip for this situation, or a tutorial vid, anything really, I'd appreciate it.

The few times I get it to work, I'm starting to get that marlinpie corner swag going. It's like 2 tough links and a tough chain in a row but it's so worth it.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Can anyone give me some Doom TAC advice? I'm getting really good at linking the falling j.l into j.lm to keep the loop going, but for some reason it seems like I drop it almost every time in the corner. It breaks off between the j.l and m which almost never happens midscreen, it's an easy chain part of the combo so unless Im going too slow it shouldn't drop there. I don't know if it's because I did something earlier in the combo that lowers the hit stun too much or if it's that the corner makes the hitbox shrink but it's really really annoying. If anyone has a good tip for this situation, or a tutorial vid, anything really, I'd appreciate it.

The few times I get it to work, I'm starting to get that marlinpie corner swag going. It's like 2 tough links and a tough chain in a row but it's so worth it.

From what I can tell, you're probably doing the pre-landing j.L too early. I think there's a weird visual cue when you do it correctly. If you delay it properly, the j.L will have a different animation than normal: Doom's arm will angle downward slightly. Do it too early and he'll just poke straight outward normally, and HSD will kick back in after the next j.L.

Supposedly the key to keeping the infinite going is making sure the opponent is still in hitstop as you land and re-jump. So, that j.L has to be done virtually as late as possible.

 

[riskVSreward]

From what I can tell, you're probably doing the pre-landing j.L too early. I think there's a weird visual cue when you do it correctly. If you delay it properly, the j.L will have a different animation than normal: Doom's arm will angle downward slightly. Do it too early and he'll just poke straight outward normally, and HSD will kick back in after the next j.L.

Supposedly the key to keeping the infinite going is making sure the opponent is still in hitstop as you land and re-jump. So, that j.L has to be done virtually as late as possible.

Awesome, thank you. I completely forgot to mention that I can do the midscreen loop off his qcf l air laser but in the corner im using the butter gun. I got good at timing the first l after both moves, but what you said makes a lot of sense because the butter gun doesnt always hit them as low as the laser.

What I really wanna do is slow down champs version from evo where he butter guns them early in the combo, before fly I believe, then he gets to do laser to end the loop. I have to rewatch that and track it down at some point, no shame in the xcopy.

 

[SolarKnight]

So, since I'm planning to start using Vergil, could anyone tell me his basics (besides yolo safe-ish Helm Breakers I mean :v) and what the notation for his loops are?

 

[Ghazi]

So, since I'm planning to start using Vergil, could anyone tell me his basics (besides yolo safe-ish Helm Breakers I mean :v) and what the notation for his loops are?

Everything is safe with Spiral Swords

 

[Vice]

So, since I'm planning to start using Vergil, could anyone tell me his basics (besides yolo safe-ish Helm Breakers I mean :v) and what the notation for his loops are?

Use a combination of judgement cuts followed by a rapid slash for super easy but effective mixups.

Abuse devil trigger and spiral swords as much as possible.

Let your other two characters die. Activate level 3. Wipe out the other team.

 

[Solune]

New Strider game looks like garbage and "open world" spells gross. Yuck.

 

[SolarKnight]

Use a combination of judgement cuts followed by a rapid slash for super easy but effective mixups.

Abuse devil trigger and spiral swords as much as possible.

Let your other two characters die. Activate level 3. Wipe out the other team.

I'm too proud of being the "Dark Raccoon" guy to go for Dark Vergil comebacks tbh :v

 

[FindMyFarms]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71438041]Findmyfarms, you on PSN?
[/QUOTE]

I am but I don't play online, wireless plus weak connection!

 

[Marz]

It is?

I mean, I'm not that great with Doom, but I didn't quite know it (plus generally everyone I've fought has advancing guarded it)

Also, just as a general question-- probably won't dig too deep into this, but what would be a good team for a point Doom?

Doom/Dorm/Sent
Doom/Vergil/Strider
Doom/Sent/Strider
Doom/Sent/Magneto

Think those are all pretty solid. Could probably throw some Ammy in there too.

 

[Zissou]

Doom/Dorm/Sent
Doom/Vergil/Strider
Doom/Sent/Strider
Doom/Sent/Magneto

Think those are all pretty solid. Could probably throw some Ammy in there too.

I advocate Doom/Dante/Strider. Doom/Ammy/Strider has certain advantages, but isn't as stong overall, IMO. Doom gets very little from Vergil or Dorm.

 

[Karsticles]

So are we learning toward no universal damage nerf, but instead individual damage tweaks?

 

[Dahbomb]

So are we learning toward no universal damage nerf, but instead individual damage tweaks?

Individual damage tweak HAS to happen no matter if we do a universal change or not. I think everyone agrees on that. Most people agree on XF rescaling as well.

There is controversy over universal damage nerf mostly because of balance issues. I think most people would not mind a small change but it's not on the top of the list in terms of priority of what to fix.

Since you weren't present yesterday I guess you can cast the tie breaker vote or something. I will just say that anything above 33% is too drastic, most people would be against that.

 

[Karsticles]

Individual damage tweak HAS to happen no matter if we do a universal change or not. I think everyone agrees on that. Most people agree on XF rescaling as well.

There is controversy over universal damage nerf mostly because of balance issues. I think most people would not mind a small change but it's not on the top of the list in terms of priority of what to fix.

Since you weren't present yesterday I guess you can cast the tie breaker vote or something. I will just say that anything above 33% is too drastic, most people would be against that.

Everything needs to be a consensus vote, and there are 4 committee members, so there could never be a tie breaker anyway (me, you, GB, Zissou).

I thought a lot about this yesterday, and I am going to suggest a 20% damage drop in combination with taking a serious look at all the character damage out there. Chip damage will get a 10% damage boost (to 40% damage) to compensate.

Also, did anyone notice the language in the Strider announcement?

Strider continues to be a "Capcom All-Star", properly capitalized like a title.

 

[Dahbomb]

10% chip increase is way too high when damage is being decreased by 20%. The maximum that would be appropriate is going from 30 to 35 and that would still be a net buff to zoning.

And yes everyone noticed that "Capcom All Stars" tag and everyone arrived at the same conclusion. All aboard the hype train etc.

Back to damage, I took a serious look at character damage yesterday and I arrived to the conclusion that around 10-12 characters in the game do very high damage or high meter gain. I agreed with God's Beard that any character getting 2 bars from a combo is too much, would need a nerf. In terms of damage it was a bit hard to gauge potential character damage versus BnB/average damage although we got a good idea.

These characters do proportionally higher damage than the rest of the cast:

Zero (Loops and scaling issue)
Vergil (Spiral Swords)
Magneto (mostly meter gain is the issue)
Viper (Scaling issue, maybe small problem in base damage too, meter gain is high)
Doom (both scaling and HSD issue, meter gain is high)
Dormammu (mostly just base damage issue)
Wolverine (base damage and Fatal Claw)
Iron Man (only a minor scaling issue on his specials)
Spencer (80K)
Chris (Flamethrower)
Strange (FotF)
Hulk (scaling issue)
Shuma

 

[Karsticles]

10% chip increase is way too high when damage is being decreased by 20%. The maximum that would be appropriate is going from 30 to 35 and that would still be a net buff to zoning.

And yes everyone noticed that "Capcom All Stars" tag and everyone arrived at the same conclusion. All aboard the hype train etc.

Back to damage, I took a serious look at character damage yesterday and I arrived to the conclusion that around 10-12 characters in the game do very high damage or high meter gain. I agreed with God's Beard that any character getting 2 bars from a combo is too much, would need a nerf. In terms of damage it was a bit hard to gauge potential character damage versus BnB/average damage although we got a good idea.

These characters do proportionally higher damage than the rest of the cast:

Zero
Vergil
Magneto (mostly meter gain is the issue)
Viper
Doom
Dormammu (mostly just base damage issue)
Wolverine (base damage and Fatal Claw)
Iron Man (only a minor scaling issue on his specials)
Spencer (80K)
Chris (Flamethrower)
Strange (FotF)
Hulk
Shuma

Thought: what if meter gain decreased over time during combos?

I'll settle on 5% chip damage bonus, 20% damage drop.

 

[Dahbomb]

Meter gain nerf would nerf Phoenix.

I would not be opposed to the idea at all but any changes to meter gain fucks up Phoenix. Honestly I would not mess with meter gain, some lower damage characters really need that meter gain like Dante... would really mess him up.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Hulk is big body though, he should be a kill combo character.

I'll agree grudgingly on 20% damage reduction and 5% chip increase. I won't agree to meter scaling. Most combos barely build more than a bar. With low damage characters like Viewtiful Joe they'll rarely even be able to TAC, let alone follow up with a super.

 

[Karsticles]

what about a universal nerf on launchers? maybe make them -5 on block?

I actually think launchers should be negative on block, but safe. Let Dormammu, Storm, Sentinel, etc. use their huge launchers for spacing without worry. They're important tools that needs to be utilized by them. I'd say universal nerf to launchers as being -1 on block. It's enough to lose your momentum. People used to get bitter about Wesker's launcher, but you never see good Weskers ABCS anymore because you lose momentum. Since this is a momentum-based game, I think -1 is good enough.

Dorm loses start of round that badly? I won't make any judgements because I don't play Dorm but something sounds really off about that.

Also, we can't use Wolverine exclusively as an example of start of round stuff because EVERYONE loses to Wolverine currently at match start.

Dormammu has the worst starting game of any character, I promise you.

Worst character at the start has to be Dr Strange. At least Dorm has good buttons in the air and good anti air normals... Thor as well is pretty shit at start.

It doesn't matter when everyone starts on his nuts. Dr. Strange actually has a good opening game. SagaFX on GFAQs, the best Dr. Strange I've ever played against, has a list of how to beat every character in the opening with Dr. Strange. Impact Palm is godlike (6 frames, huge hitbox).

I don't really want to start this argument, but he really can't be the worst, is his jump speed that slow that he can't start the match with jump back twice > super jump away once the match begins and then air dash/teleport around or something? Why don't you try s.S + assist or something derp like that after jumping away

Dormammu has the slowest movement of any character in the game, tied with Hulk, Chris, Doom, Haggar, and Thor:
http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2011/feb/19/walk-speed-comparison-marvel-vs-capcom-3/

Everyone gets to start on his nuts. His jump speed is just as slow as his walk speed. He never gets to superjump away because any character is right on his nuts already going for an option select air throw or c.L. s.S is a 9 frame startup, so any character is able to beat it out easily.

I'm not sure how to address Dormammu's problem, though. The only other character with normals that slow and weak speed without armor is Dante, but he gets a double jump for an easy start of the round. One possibility is that superjumps and air dashes get unlocked before the start of the round.

Because upback is absurdly safe and it's really not easy to get people to stay on the ground to begin with? Giving space means Doom gets to jump back footdive, Vergil gets to jump back Helm Breaker or as I said before press H or S shutting down all possible offense against him minus Hulk pretty much. It isn't even that characters now have to work for pressure afterwards, they just don't get it at all after they worked to get the other character to stand on the ground in the first place making ground throws a really shitty option.

I think one of the great things about Marvel is, like Darkstalkers, you get 1 approach attempt, and if you screw it up, the neutral gets roughly reset. One of the main reasons Zero is so dumb is that he gets a ton of pressure, and you have to pushblock for a good 5 seconds to get him off of you. Wolverine is the same way, and it's good to nerf that pressure to make the game more reasonable in this regard. Ground throws are how I open up my opponents ~30% of the time these days, so I'm not biased here. I play point Firebrand, so I'm one of those people who gets a tech into free s.L into pressure.

Meter gain nerf would nerf Phoenix.

I would not be opposed to the idea at all but any changes to meter gain fucks up Phoenix. Honestly I would not mess with meter gain, some lower damage characters really need that meter gain like Dante... would really mess him up.

The meter gain nerf hurts Phoenix, but the damage drop (which will really be a universal life buff - we all agree on that, right?) will be a huge buff for her. I think it more than evens out.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71575516]Hulk is big body though, he should be a kill combo character.

I'll agree grudgingly on 20% damage reduction and 5% chip increase. I won't agree to meter scaling. Most combos barely build more than a bar. With low damage characters like Viewtiful Joe they'll rarely even be able to TAC, let alone follow up with a super.[/QUOTE]
I wasn't thinking that the meter scaling would be huge like damage decay. More like...100% meter gain for the first 7 seconds of a combo, and then the meter decay starts. So really, it would just be a nerf to those huge, long combos we get with assists and such. I'm not attached to the idea, though.

 

[Dahbomb]

Big bodies that do fair damage include Haggar, Thor, She Hulk and Sentinel. They have high base damage and hard hitting hypers but their combos scale. Hulk's scaling is ridiculous, a majority of characters he can kill without spending a bar. Even in a 20% damage nerf game he would be TODing a majority of characters.

I just think his scaling on normals should be reduced from 30 to 20. No character should have that much scaling on just normals. He would still kill characters but he would probably have to actually use a bar now.

And I am with Gods Beard, no nerfing meter gain please. There are only a handful of characters who get ridiculous meter gain, adjust them not the system.

 

[Azure J]

So are we learning toward no universal damage nerf, but instead individual damage tweaks?

I actually liked the idea of doing both (with the universal system nerf adding some leeway to character damage scaling changes), but if someone wants to do a first run with just character rebalancing, I could get behind that too.

Oh and yeah, no meter scaling.

Edit: Well, actually, I don't know what to say with regards to meter scaling. I feel like Ulitmate fixed meter gain appropriately versus Vanilla and never had an issue with it although objectively, building two meters with the majority of my Viper BnBs, using an EX to extend and still getting a 3rd meter for the level one to close out the combo and remain meter positive might be a little on the nutty side.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I don't understand people's DHCs with Vergil. A lot of the times when they're just short of killing a character they DHC to spiral swords, it kills in like two hits then they tag back to their point character.

If you're not gonna put the crown on somebody, DHC to Devil Trigger instead. That way after you tag you point back in, if they die Vergil has more incoming options and can cancel his whiffed moves until you can call assists again.

It doesn't matter when everyone starts on his nuts. Dr. Strange actually has a good opening game. SagaFX on GFAQs, the best Dr. Strange I've ever played against, has a list of how to beat every character in the opening with Dr. Strange. Impact Palm is godlike (6 frames, huge hitbox).

Even X-23?

Even in a 20% damage nerf game he would be TODing a majority of characters.
He would still kill characters but he would probably have to actually use a bar now.

He would have to use a bar with a 20% nerf. In fact most of the time he'd need to DHC.

 

[Dahbomb]

Drew Grimey does that, he will DHC into DT do Lunar Phase to kill then tag out if a DT combo is enough to kill.

The reason people don't take the risk with DT is that if the initial Lunar Phase doesn't kill the character might survive because Vergil's normal damage scaling is at a low 5%. Even with the DT boost that might not be enough to kill, better safe than sorry.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Drew Grimey does that, he will DHC into DT do Lunar Phase to kill then tag out if a DT combo is enough to kill.

I brought it up because I just watched Drew Grimey do the exact opposite lol

 

[Dahbomb]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71580066]I brought it up because I just watched Drew Grimey do the exact opposite lol[/QUOTE]
It's a tournament match and you want to finish your plate even if its a less than optimum decision. I can totally understand that.

 

[Karsticles]

I actually liked the idea of doing both (with the universal system nerf adding some leeway to character damage scaling changes), but if someone wants to do a first run with just character rebalancing, I could get behind that too.

Oh and yeah, no meter scaling.

Edit: Well, actually, I don't know what to say with regards to meter scaling. I feel like Ulitmate fixed meter gain appropriately versus Vanilla and never had an issue with it although objectively, building two meters with the majority of my Viper BnBs, using an EX to extend and still getting a meter for the level one to close out the combo might be a little on the nutty side.

My only concern is those characters who can just go on and on with meter extension and high hitting moves like Chris' Flamethrower. Though maybe we should just take it on a character-by-character basis.

Drew Grimey does that, he will DHC into DT do Lunar Phase to kill then tag out if a DT combo is enough to kill.

The reason people don't take the risk with DT is that if the initial Lunar Phase doesn't kill the character might survive because Vergil's normal damage scaling is at a low 5%. Even with the DT boost that might not be enough to kill, better safe than sorry.

Is there a quick and easy spreadsheet that shows damage scaling for characters?

 

[Dahbomb]

No but I can probably make one real quick if someone forwards me a way to make spreadsheet online.

 

[Azure J]

My only concern is those characters who can just go on and on with meter extension and high hitting moves like Chris' Flamethrower. Though maybe we should just take it on a character-by-character basis.

Most definitely.

 

["God's Beard!"]

It's a tournament match and you want to finish your plate even if its a less than optimum decision. I can totally understand that.

Honestly I don't think there's many times on Drew's team where I would DHC to Spiral Swords. He doesn't really run low on meter so I don't think that's a big deal, and C.Viper doesn't use bounces so he gets a full extension anyway. The only time I'd use Spiral Swords is if I wanted to keep in Vergil so Viper could gain health back. Because then the meter really does matter.