He was talking about Adon in USFIV
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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
He was talking about Adon in USFIV
Gotcha. I think incoming characters should definitely be at a distinct weakness. Maybe make it better than it is now, but not in a SFxT situation where the attacker has a theoretical advantage and not a real, practical one. Also, allowing incoming characters to switch which side they come in means that a Hsien Ko comeback is near impossible while Mags/Vergil/Dorm/etc can still do what they want since they have the hitboxes/mobility to get to where they need to go.
I do think something needs to be done about install supers. It's no coincidence that the best characters all have them- Morrigan, Vergil, Zero.
TAC is fine. If it needs to be nerfed, I would make it able to be reacted to, but as hard to react to as Tekken throws. That encourages better play and reactions will still be slowed down a little because people will constantly fear throw resets.
Another way to nerf damage might be to nerf damage scaling. That way skill still allows big combos (to tack on damage) if you're ballsy enough to go for them, but resets are also more encouraged (which allows opponents to get out).
Chip should probably be decreased 5%, not increased. Wouldn't make sense to allow defenders this great opportunity to escape incoming by picking which side they want to come in and then never let them play because level 3 x factor dormammu has 5 stalking flares and full spells out (or Morri-Doom).
Lee Chaolan
Member
Yeah, Cell Phone can chip out on X Factor, they could bring that down.
I would love though if Maya shield could prevent Skrull or spencer from grabbing Phoenix through it. Regular throws would still be fine though.
Thank god crisis averted.
Chip was increased by 5% because if you decrease overall damage you nerf zoning. The more damage you nerf, the more you need to buff zoning to compensate. After doing many calculations (and you can go check them a few pages back) it was seen that a 5% increase would offset the 20% damage nerf. Overall it would only be a 0.4% buff to zoning.
I'm still not sold on reducing damage assists take. Why would we want to allow players more reckless assist calls? Also, damage will already be lowered which alone will make assists more difficult to snipe/kill. If you reduce the damage assists take, at very least you also need to reduce the rate that they heal their red life damage. If we're trying to change the game to encourage smarter play, why would we allow players to get away with not protecting their assist calls?
Also, I'm happy overall with the way TACs will now work, but maybe we would want to consider limiting it to one TAC per combo (or two max or something), even if you relaunch. If this wasn't changed, someone with five bars could do five TACs (in timer scam type situations, this would be a possibility), right?
Also, I'm not sold on the x-factor nerf. I actually like Smurfx's suggestion to tune x-factor- keep it as is, but when you kill a character, you lose decent chunk of your remaining x-factor time. This keeps it strong as a way to not instantly lose once you're down to one character, but it would greatly reduce the chance that an anchor could run through an entire three characters before x-factor ran out, since the first two characters dying would ensure x-factor was over by the time the third came in.
Karsticles
Member
Gonzo tells us why our changes are shit:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ypzp6glvih1r6s/Why your opinion is shit.docx
I am going to watch Game of Thrones now; if Dahbomb doesn't respond, I will in a few days.
ShadyK thinks being able to air dash/superjump pre-match is a good idea also:
https://twitter.com/Shady_K/status/358394990780620800
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ypzp6glvih1r6s/Why your opinion is shit.docx
I am going to watch Game of Thrones now; if Dahbomb doesn't respond, I will in a few days.
ShadyK thinks being able to air dash/superjump pre-match is a good idea also:
https://twitter.com/Shady_K/status/358394990780620800
commanderpepper
Member
Oh god I forgot that characters can grab through the shield. I'd love to see the change you suggested make it in.
Again, I gotta side with Smurfx's suggestion of one universal X-Factor level (thanks Zissou for bringing that up), it just seems so much more elegant a solution. Set a single set of three times for how many characters are left when the X is popped with XF1 being the fastest to drain and XF3 being the longest duration, make the damage/speed/scaling something safe without being team melting (somewhere between current XF1 and 2 but normalized instead of giving unique XF values to everyone) and grant the same cancels and you're set.
Fix the issue with Install/state change hypers multiplying the buffs and make them add accordingly and I think that's the best solution.
Fix the issue with Install/state change hypers multiplying the buffs and make them add accordingly and I think that's the best solution.
SolarPowered
Member
Just saw Karsts list of changes. I like most of the stuff, but something in particular stood out to me in a real bad way. Is it okay to comment on that or is this just some sort of illuminati thing we got going here?
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I prefer my TAC change
Though the removal of the guessing game could be a turn off for some I guess. But punishing a player for using it on scaling damage 50% lower for each consecutive one seems like a fair trade off.QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Nah the plan was to normalize it for the most part and make the OMG I'M MAKING A COMBACK factor of it lower.
Dunno why you'd think that, if lowly me is putting ideas out, anyone can do it.
By the way, can someone summarize what Honzo said? I'm really curious but the dropbox link is just not working for me right now.
The easiest TAC change that I'd be happy with is letting the player combo after the counter wall bounce.
You win the TAC, you get a free tag and a aerial combo (damage scaled. HSD as it is now. No infinites).
You fail to win the TAC, you get wallbounced and eat a full combo.
My ideal change would be pre-launch vanilla MvC3 counter TACs that give the bonus to the opponent, but they can lead to infinite UP TACs.
You win the TAC, you get a free tag and a aerial combo (damage scaled. HSD as it is now. No infinites).
You fail to win the TAC, you get wallbounced and eat a full combo.
My ideal change would be pre-launch vanilla MvC3 counter TACs that give the bonus to the opponent, but they can lead to infinite UP TACs.
Face it Tiger..
Banned
GIVE ME VANILLA SHE-HULK OR GIVE ME DEATH.
ps: take away swiss cheese.
ps: take away swiss cheese.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Summary Marvel should stay an extremely high reward on hit gameDunno why you'd think that, if lowly me is putting ideas out, anyone can do it.
By the way, can someone summarize what Honzo said? I'm really curious but the dropbox link is just not working for me right now.
Yup this is good too.
He just had an obvious brain fart there. Some of the stuff he commented on was either half finished or wasn't actually going to be put in.
Also he went ham on the side switch mechanic. It's a big change and I knew it would not be popular. However prefacing every change with "MARVEL IS A HARD GAME DEAL WITH IT" is not constructive. We already know that shit and in fact some of the changes suggested do make it a harder game like less option selects and derp tactics to survive.
And anyone can chime in and give suggestions.. there is no illuminati shit going on here.
After some of the stuff is finalized I am going to add more comments to the changes and give the "why" behind it. Most of the stuff we put in there had a clear reasoning of it being listed, there was deliberate discussion over everything.
Okay, better TAC change (IMO):
1. TAC counters lead to a wallbounce (as they do now) but those wallbounces can be combo'ed after.
2. Performing a TAC takes away that direction from the pool of available directions for the next TAC. Thus, increasing your opponents chance of guessing right from 33% to 50%
Eg:
I'm playing as Wolv/Stor/Akuma
My Wolverine gets a combo, I do an UP TAC, its successful, Strom comes in, I do an air combo, now I can only do Side TAC or Down TAC. I do Down TAC, Wesker guesses right, breaks the TAC, then combo'es me to death.
Consequences: No more +2 meters for you or -2 meter for your opponent TACs. Makes TACs way more risky. Makes double TACs huge gambles.
1. TAC counters lead to a wallbounce (as they do now) but those wallbounces can be combo'ed after.
2. Performing a TAC takes away that direction from the pool of available directions for the next TAC. Thus, increasing your opponents chance of guessing right from 33% to 50%
Eg:
I'm playing as Wolv/Stor/Akuma
My Wolverine gets a combo, I do an UP TAC, its successful, Strom comes in, I do an air combo, now I can only do Side TAC or Down TAC. I do Down TAC, Wesker guesses right, breaks the TAC, then combo'es me to death.
Consequences: No more +2 meters for you or -2 meter for your opponent TACs. Makes TACs way more risky. Makes double TACs huge gambles.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
"cheap" stuff is fine, but stuff like guard breaking and shit isn't imo. There should never be a touch of death sequence in anything. In marvel's case I can see it being fine for one character to die in 1 combo, but a whole team shouldn't die from one hit.
SolarPowered
Member
Okay thenDunno why you'd think that, if lowly me is putting ideas out, anyone can do it.
I like most of the stuff, but what the hell at X-factor stopping the timer. This is a bs game with stupid chip, stupid crossups and a heaping bucket of stupid waiting to spill all over the place. If you managed to keep something like a Phoenix team at bay for 80+ seconds you earned that win. The way some characters in this game are designed practically dooms a solo non x-factor character. It also gets kinda silly if both opponents pop X-factor solo at different times. We're approaching SFxT levels of stopping the clock here. Three out of fives ain't got no time fo' dat. The tension flies right out the room with those sorts of timer shenanigans.
Also, I've always been under the impression that throw techs in UMvC3 are easy already. Widening the window seems kinda pointless.
How would you prevent Viper + Jam and Firebrand + tenderizer setups? The only way I see is to remove the unblockable properties on them (or prevent unblockables during blockstun). I'm not totally against that, but some people like that style of play.
EDIT: I don't mind the time stopping thing personally, but it kinda turns X factor into Pandora since the only time that it's useful is when time's about to run out.
There are guard breaks in the game that go through even if you didn't push block. But no.... MARVEL IS TEH HARD GAME DEAL WITH IT!
On the point of unblockables:
A) We have the side switch mechanic
B) You would just need to change the Tenderizer assist to the ground version (better for a higher portion of the cast)
C) You can change the properties of the unblockables so that if they hit an aerial opponent they will cause minimal hit stun allowing the opponent to pop out. This would make them work only on the ground where you have more options (ground unblockable would remain the same, FB will cause Stagger and Viper will cause Crumple).
On the point of unblockables:
A) We have the side switch mechanic
B) You would just need to change the Tenderizer assist to the ground version (better for a higher portion of the cast)
C) You can change the properties of the unblockables so that if they hit an aerial opponent they will cause minimal hit stun allowing the opponent to pop out. This would make them work only on the ground where you have more options (ground unblockable would remain the same, FB will cause Stagger and Viper will cause Crumple).
If I didn't really like the idea of giving consistency to the TAC system with the guaranteed for a meter price, this would be a pretty excellent fix to the mold in play now.
I was referring specially to the side switch on incoming mechanic, you can get your team killed in 10 seconds if you guess wrong a 50/50, but Honzo says "Marvel is hard so leave it".
I think he likes to confuse "horribly unforgiving for some stupid reasons" with "hard." Virtua Fighter and Tekken are hard. Marvel 3 is actually the easiest game out of all the popular ones (AE, Cross, KoF, Tekken etc). Marvel is simply a game that will reward offense and ways to get in than defense, because getting one single hit is all that matters, as opposed to blocking a bunch of attacks. Great defense is nice, until you eventually get opened up since that is the game. I don't think Marvel is easy in general, but relative to a lot of other fighters out there it's one of the most accessible for sure.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
The clock NEVER stops in SFxT as far as I'm aware, this is why there are so many time overs
SolarPowered
Member
Yeah, you just reminded me. I'm sleepy as hell. It's bad enough that I'd make a mistake like that one lol. I still don't understand how Vanilla SfxT could be so goddamn boring when the fights ended so quickly.
whatevs
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Because people played Rolento and played poke fighter instead of combo fighter
Lee Chaolan
Member
I asked to GAF's own Black Vegeta, who was at the Capcom Panel earlier, about this patch talk, and he answered to me this:
I love his articles, disshouldbegud.gif
I love his articles, disshouldbegud.gif
If Honzo's reasoning to strike down all of the suggested changes is only "Mahvel is hard", I automatically cannot roll over and agree with it all. Better summary please? There are some changes here I still have to get a better grasp of either through discussion context or hearing from others, but I can't see how things like the TAC change or how assists work are auto-bad taking all I can into consideration.
I never actually chimed in on the XF stopping the timer comment because I never understood it properly the few times it was brought up before. That being said, I agree with this a ton. It's a very powerful buff and skews more into "why" territory especially when beyond the issue of universally high damage being augmented by this system's damage/speed/scaling buffs on top of character specific damage/speed buffs, nothing is actually wrong with X-Factor in general.
Since everyone was doing it, I guess I'll make my list for changes on X-Factor here:
- X-Factor values now normalized across the board, no variance per character
- X-Factor bonus values sit between current XF1 and XF2
- X-Factor timers follow current logic where the duration is shortest with all three characters available and longer when a character is anchoring a team.
I never actually chimed in on the XF stopping the timer comment because I never understood it properly the few times it was brought up before. That being said, I agree with this a ton. It's a very powerful buff and skews more into "why" territory especially when beyond the issue of universally high damage being augmented by this system's damage/speed/scaling buffs on top of character specific damage/speed buffs, nothing is actually wrong with X-Factor in general.
Since everyone was doing it, I guess I'll make my list for changes on X-Factor here:
- X-Factor values now normalized across the board, no variance per character
- X-Factor bonus values sit between current XF1 and XF2
- X-Factor timers follow current logic where the duration is shortest with all three characters available and longer when a character is anchoring a team.
Lee Chaolan
Member
Wesker needs to get buffed.
X factor being normalized for all characters is a very bad idea. Technically it's already normalized, it's how the speed/damage boosts are allocated is what is differeny between characters.
Did Capcom really decide to change the game after only watching EVO finals? What about all the majors year long where Doom dominated? LOL.. I feel bad for Justin already.
Did Capcom really decide to change the game after only watching EVO finals? What about all the majors year long where Doom dominated? LOL.. I feel bad for Justin already.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Yeah, this is what I was saying needs to be adressed. Slow Strong characters shouldn't get more power than speed they should get more speed than power.
Makes sense to wait til after EVO to do any changes. The year up to EVO is pretty much a season. After EVO it's a fresh start.
Mind you, I'm just using fancy language to say "make X-Factor act essentially as XF1 but lengthening it depending on how many characters are left on the user's team". With that said, is it because you're taking into consideration characters who would still have weird matchups in XF where they wouldn't be much faster than the character they want to catch? (Ex: A character getting a +30 speed boost on their base 30 from XF trying to catch a base 50 character.)
Edit: You know what, I see it now. Current X-Factor implementation with a further toning down of values on a character to character basis might just be the strongest option.
I know what you are saying... basically you want the current XF ratios to be flipped.
Ie. You want Hulk to get faster, Firebrand to do more damage. Right now Hulk only gets more damage and FB mostly gets a powerful speed boost.
IMO that would create unseen balance problems with the roster. It's too big a change to really foresee how it will go over. Some characters would get worse (Ammy losing speed boost meaning no more infinites) and some better (pretty much anyone with good mix ups). Overall it's hard to say if it would even be a net improvement for the game.
The whole "XF only scales up in time with character deaths" is a good idea but that's still too radical. Would make anchor characters much worse especially Phoenix who is right now kinda irrelevant. Strider would be even worse off.
I'm honestly ready with a choice few that I've been itching to put into the pot for a while. I'll wait for the sake of data collection though.
We are doing system first so hold on to them until Monday.
You can post them if you want and we can discuss them but they won't go up yet.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I didn't say it would be a direct flop around. It's based on character properties. Ammy would get decent speed still because she is a stiff ass character overall. It's based on character's movement ability/attack speeds/damage output. The goal would be for xfactor characters to be as close to each other as possible in power. As it's a limited power up state.
Well character properties IS what Capcom tried to balance XF around. All the heavies get damage boosts while all the pixies get speed boosts. For Capcom Ammy qualifies as a pixie for some reason. So if you suggest such a change, that is how they will balance it... ie they will just flip the ratios.
Also it always seemed like XF amplified a character's strength... not give them new powers so to speak. I know what you are getting at and I see where you are coming from a balance perspective but I can never see Capcom really implementing this. XF is already such a sensitive issue and right now XF isn't too over powered where pretty much anything would be a net improvement (unlike TACs). All we can really hope for is some minor scaling which is what is recommended as of now in our suggestion list.
Lee Chaolan
Member
I know! He's like 15th now on most Tier lists
What would Wesker need to be more viable against the sea of projectiles that comes his way? Better counter? Better Magnum Shot durability? His super counter definitely needs to go back to Vanilla type.