DON'T BUFF LOW TIERS BECAUSE THERE HAS TO BE LOW TIER HEROES. okay shady whatever you say
I say every character should be Dante. I want a million options with everyone.
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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
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I say every character should be Dante. I want a million options with everyone.
That's not what he said exactly.
He said that first accept that there are low tiers and then buff them accordingly by giving them interesting tools or improving their support capabilities. Don't just make Felicia into another Wolverine is what he was saying.
Also I like your She Hulk changes, I back them up.
He said that first accept that there are low tiers and then buff them accordingly by giving them interesting tools or improving their support capabilities. Don't just make Felicia into another Wolverine is what he was saying.
Also I like your She Hulk changes, I back them up.
I was just being facetious. I get what he's saying, but at the same time he's a 'scumbag Dark Vergil'.
Karsticles
Member
Combing through the FGTV patch suggestions and adding them to my notes when appropriate.
He really is OP in Turnabout, I just don't want to make him too good. Frank West's stance is not as good as Wright's; Wright can completely lock him out. Wright is also one of 5 characters that scare my Dark Phoenix. He really is a monster in that mode.
Hahaha, I see. I don't see how Dante will open people up without that ability.Oh, I agree about Dark Phoenix. I do not want her to be able to cross people up with a teleport in the corner. However, more than asking to make those two characters cross up, I'm asking if we should make the other characters not cross up.
Oh he's totally a scumbag Missiles/Dark Vergil player. I mean if you want to play the whole difficulty card, Vergil should be at the top of the list to nerf, way over Wolverine.I was just being facetious. I get what he's saying, but at the same time he's a 'scumbag Dark Vergil'.
commanderpepper
Member
You know what would be great for PW in Turnabout mode. If his cr. H was an actual low. It looks like a low yet, it can be blocked standing.
Frametraps(pushblock baits, punish baits, frame advantage, etc), and some high/low when they least expect it. I honestly get more hits from frame traps than I do teleports, because people want to pushblock the hell out of Dante, and the pushblock tends to screw up the cross ups.
It's just an idea that I wouldn't mind seeing discussed.
No one is going to respect PW as long as TA is on a limited timer. Honestly speaking landing his LVL3 should completely refresh his timer.
The effort it takes to get PW to TA mode is higher than either Frank and Dark Phoenix yet he is the only one of the three on a timer (I guess DP is on a timer but she at least has a way to refresh it).
The effort it takes to get PW to TA mode is higher than either Frank and Dark Phoenix yet he is the only one of the three on a timer (I guess DP is on a timer but she at least has a way to refresh it).
Wait, what? One of the best Lv3 supers in the game should allow Wright to stay longer in an overpowered mode? That doesn't make sense.
I do think that if you have time remaining in Turnabout, it shouldn't end it. DHC inputs seeing my inputs as a SRK making me waste 3 meters and lose Turnabout Wright...ugh. (Actually just fix inputs on DHCs, that shit is dumb)
Karsticles
Member
LOL @ Yipes:
https://www.facebook.com/IFCYipes18/posts/598454830185876
This is why being a "top player" means nothing in terms of understanding game balance.
Though I do love your level 3 option.
https://www.facebook.com/IFCYipes18/posts/598454830185876
This is why being a "top player" means nothing in terms of understanding game balance.
Hmmm. I don't like the idea that a character like Wolverine will prefer to be in the corner so he can have his options open against an incoming character. I really hate teleport cross-ups, but this change really has me wondering how it would work in practice. Would Rapid Slash still cross up?
But like I said, Viscant even says to blow X-Factor to kill Wright in Turnabout. Yipes learned a little bit about respect at Evo. I don't think the timer needs to be messed with. I feel like I might be the only person here that regularly spars against a solid Wright player and knows how vicious he can be.
Though I do love your level 3 option.
That makes absolute sense. This means the opposite player can't afford to get hit or sacrifice a character just to let the timer run out. Also gives incentive to use the hyper more often.
The whole point of TA is being OP. If he got the room to get all the evidences AND landed a clean hit on you, then you pretty much deserve to lose. Of course this is all assuming it's current PW,, not "call PW as an assist to gather evidence then DHC into him for free TA". In that case yea.. you can put limitations on him.
Also the st. L into st.M chain is not a bad request at all, even FGTV requested it. The Hammer should never be invincible, never again.
Every top player is biased as hell and wants their character to be top tier. They play for money, if I was in the same position I would ask crazy but subtle buffs on my character too.
Just feels weird since you can alpha counter, TAC, or DHC into it (and even a few raw tag setups). I guess it'd be interesting to see team setups that way to try to build more meter to have a scary Ace Attorney Lv3 waiting in back. Might be okay I suppose since a newer patch wouldn't have as many ways to get a ton of meter (TAC infinites and such). Fully refresh sounds a bit OP IMO.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I'm fine with giving Dante his chain back, but not the hammer.
Also, I think his TACs should have less startup.
Also, I think his TACs should have less startup.
Spend 3-4 bars to keep TA active? Not a bad trade at all.
If my opponent has 3-4 bars on deck with TA PW and at least another character alive then I should already be dead. I got out played, I deserved the loss.
To me the strongest thing about PW is the blue laser spam. That shit is nuts and the main reason why he is on a timer.
commanderpepper
Member
I'm looking back at the Whens Ugly vs Yipes match over here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sQKNWuZ288
It looks to me that Yipes respected PW too much. Also he didn't kill PW when he had the chance at 8:30. I still believe that Turnabout mode is nonthreatening unless PW has 3 meters or the cellphone evidence.
It looks to me that Yipes respected PW too much. Also he didn't kill PW when he had the chance at 8:30. I still believe that Turnabout mode is nonthreatening unless PW has 3 meters or the cellphone evidence.
Karsticles
Member
What system do you play on?
I said that all 4 committee members should keep their own list of what they like, and at the end of the week we would work on making them all agree. So I have my master list of stuff that I have seen and liked, and I'll change that as we work toward agreements on stuff. Here is what I have right now:
She-Hulk:
*Lights Out startup reduced to 20 frames.
*c.L chains into itself on block/hit.
*Taking out the Trash hitbox and invincibility slightly increased.
*Emerald Cannon hyper forces a wall bounce.
*Speed increased slightly.
*Emergency Landing (Catapult Cancel) no longer makes She-Hulk prone until landing.
*Canceling Runner’s Start has 0 frames of recovery.
*Torpedo assist startup reduced to 35.
*Slight increase on c.H range/distance.
*Shooting Star assist causes significant knockback on block.
*Torpedo causes less knockback on hit.
*Somersault Kick has 1 hit of super armor beginning on frame 5.
*j.H hitbox improved slightly.
Assists: Lights Out, Shooting Star, Torpedo
Phoenix Wright:
*Bad evidence removed from the game.
*Meat gathering rate increased.
*”M-Maya?!” L appears closer to Wright than before.
*Ace Attorney startup reduced to 5 frames.
*Stance Change reduced to 10 frames (from 20).
*”M-Maya?!” L startup reduced to 15 frames, and the shield now benefits from damage scaling.
*”M-Maya?!” M and H startup reduced to 20 frames.
*”Get em’ Missile!” added as a normal move; charge back for 30 frames, then forward and M; startup is 15 frames, 10 recovery.
*Present Evidence and Paperwork air OK.
*Slip-Up startup reduced to 19 frames.
*Dash distance increased by 20%, total dash time unchanged.
*Hitboxes on normals improved slightly.
Assists: “Get em’ Missile!”, Questioning (becomes Objection when appropriate), Gather/Present Evidence (continues to gather through the L+S, M+S, and H+S inputs until all evidence is gathered; uses L+S if in Trial mode; if all slots are filled and he is called while in Investigation mode, throws away his L+S item).
Phoenix:
*Dark Phoenix health drain rate reduced.
*Dark Phoenix feathers now travel 15% farther.
*TK Shot (air) no longer makes Phoenix prone until she lands.
*Only one TK Shot H may be performed per jump unless in flight (as with Trish).
*New Hyper: Overload; Phoenix loses all health immediately; requires 5 bars, rdp.AA.
*Flight startup reduced to 14 frames.
*f.M reduced to 19 frames.
*Multiple Dark Phoenix characters are now distinguishable on-screen.
Assists: TK Overdrive H, TK Shot H, TK Trap L
Wolverine:
*Fatal Claw damage slightly decreased.
*Wavedashing with Wolverine is less likely to activate Berserker Charge.
*Berserker Charge provides slight red health recovery.
Assists: Berserker Barrage H (fully mashed), Swiss Cheese, df.M
Hm, yeah...would make approaching a Wright with 3 bars much more hellish, but I guess it's fine since it still has some startup.
Agreed.
Looking at your Wright changes Karsticles and I like them overall. I still don't think removing bad evidence entirely is the way to go, especially since now there'd be even easier ways to gather evidence. It might promote more use of Trial mode at least since good evidence isn't as much of a rarity. I would also miss my alpha counter Break the Witness assist but oh well.
EDIT: ”Get em’ Missile!” added as a normal move; charge back for 30 frames, then forward and M; startup is 15 frames, 10 recovery.
Would this be available in Investigation, Trial, and Turnabout, or just say...Trial and Turnabout?
s.L to s.M would be fine, I think. You could even go a step further and make s.L to s.M work only on counter-hit so it's strictly an anti-air only rather than a hitconfirming tool off j.H and what have you. And I have a few other minor tweaks to Dante that I think would be fine that I'll list out when the time comes.
But no to Hammer. Step up your defense, Yipes! That's why Green Ace is a better Dante than you!
But no to Hammer. Step up your defense, Yipes! That's why Green Ace is a better Dante than you!
That's mainly why I'd like to have the discussion, as a way to see how characters mixups would change based on cornered or not. Would it completely destroy some characters, or would it just encourage smart play? That sort of thing.
commanderpepper
Member
When PW does Order in the Court he is left wide open if it whiffs, PW can be OTG'd. Yipe's Hawkeye had ample time to pick him up and kill PW.
Karsticles
Member
Okay, but what does that have to do with my question?
Well, some of the changes are assist changes, and I don't think that should count as part of the 10 changes.
I got Wright down to 10:
Phoenix Wright:
*Bad evidence removed from the game.
*”M-Maya?!” L appears closer to Wright than before, startup is reduced to 15 frames, and the shield now benefits from damage scaling.
*Ace Attorney startup reduced to 5 frames.
*Stance Change reduced to 10 frames (from 20).
*”M-Maya?!” M and H startup reduced to 20 frames.
*”Get em’ Missile!” added as a normal move; charge back for 30 frames, then forward and M; startup is 15 frames, 10 recovery.
*Present Evidence and Paperwork air OK.
*Slip-Up startup reduced to 19 frames.
*Dash distance increased by 20%, total dash time unchanged.
*Hitboxes on normals improved slightly.
Assists: “Get em’ Missile!”, Questioning (becomes Objection when appropriate), Gather/Present Evidence (continues to gather through the L+S, M+S, and H+S inputs until all evidence is gathered; uses L+S if in Trial mode; if all slots are filled and he is called while in Investigation mode, throws away his L+S item).
commanderpepper
Member
Does it matter what system I play on? PS3, there is your're answer.
Karsticles
Member
Do me a favor and play a set of 10 against SlasherMcGirk.
Yo Slasher, if you read this, I want a ft10 too. I haven't had a Wright mirror in awhile.
Karsticles
Member
She-Hulk:
*Lights Out startup reduced to 20 frames.
*c.L chains into itself on block/hit.
*Taking out the Trash hitbox and invincibility slightly increased.
*Emerald Cannon hyper forces a wall bounce.
*Speed increased slightly.
*Emergency Landing (Catapult Cancel) no longer makes She-Hulk prone until landing.
*Canceling Runners Start has 0 frames of recovery.
*Slight increase on c.H range/distance, j.H hitbox improved slightly.
*Shooting Star assist causes significant knockback on block.
*Torpedo causes less knockback on hit; assist version startup reduced to 35 frames startup.
*Somersault Kick has 1 hit of super armor beginning on frame 5.
Assists: Lights Out, Shooting Star, Torpedo
Got it to 11...not sure how to get it to 10.
*Lights Out startup reduced to 20 frames.
*c.L chains into itself on block/hit.
*Taking out the Trash hitbox and invincibility slightly increased.
*Emerald Cannon hyper forces a wall bounce.
*Speed increased slightly.
*Emergency Landing (Catapult Cancel) no longer makes She-Hulk prone until landing.
*Canceling Runners Start has 0 frames of recovery.
*Slight increase on c.H range/distance, j.H hitbox improved slightly.
*Shooting Star assist causes significant knockback on block.
*Torpedo causes less knockback on hit; assist version startup reduced to 35 frames startup.
*Somersault Kick has 1 hit of super armor beginning on frame 5.
Assists: Lights Out, Shooting Star, Torpedo
Got it to 11...not sure how to get it to 10.
The only change I would make on She Hulk is increasing the range on her lampost to 3/4th screen. Its supposed to be used against zoning. To counter act you can change start up to 24 frames. The Phoenix and Wolverine changes I can agree with.
I think removing bad evidence from PW is a radical change. I am 100% for it but I feel it lowers the comedic value of the character. Maybe put good/bad evidence on a specific pattern so that you know when you are about to get a good one or a bad one. I also think PW gathering evidence as assists is too radical, would allow a character like Haggar to camp back and up/back Pipe until he gets all evidences.
She Hulk already has a good enough hit box and invincibility on her AA hyper. Its one of her best tools, the hit box is better than Frank. Not sure why its being buffed, just seems like a "buff for the sake of buff" thing.
I think removing bad evidence from PW is a radical change. I am 100% for it but I feel it lowers the comedic value of the character. Maybe put good/bad evidence on a specific pattern so that you know when you are about to get a good one or a bad one. I also think PW gathering evidence as assists is too radical, would allow a character like Haggar to camp back and up/back Pipe until he gets all evidences.
She Hulk already has a good enough hit box and invincibility on her AA hyper. Its one of her best tools, the hit box is better than Frank. Not sure why its being buffed, just seems like a "buff for the sake of buff" thing.
Yup, it'd be pretty easy gathering evidence now especially with the assist. Would be easier getting cellphone too, since the only reason why Wright players don't toss out their good evidence to get the cellphone (which is great even in Trial mode) is because good evidence is a rarity.
I still like the idea of making bad evidence present, just not useless. Make them eat up a projectile on screen or something if it comes into contact with one (like Dr. Strange's Flame of the Faltine), and have a different throw arc depending on which bad evidence it is.
There's also already tricks around getting evidence like the Maya DHC trick, after a throw, hard knockdown, certain THCs....you lose that if it's too easy to get good evidence. I'll say it again, Wright's main issue isn't gathering evidence, it's landing that Objection.
Karsticles
Member
I've seen She-Hulk's AA hyper whiff against Morrigan too many times while they are touching each other.
Wright has a ton of comedic value. He can take a hit to that. When I read this:
It sounded like this:
Is that equally disturbing to you? Wright still has to hit the opponent with Objection!, don't forget. It's not easy to do with his neutral game.
I think the difference here is that it would only take 3 assist calls to get Wright ready for a DHC into Objection. Setting up a Dark Phoenix/Vergil or Strider with tons of bar/etc still takes more than just 3 Dark Harmonizer calls.
Karsticles
Member
Right, but Wright still needs to land Objection, which means you need to hit your opponent. Phoenix just has to die. Also, folks aren't thinking about the game's neutral. Does anyone use Ammy's Bloom or Frank's Pick Me Up? No? Of course not. Wright evidence gathering will be just as risky as those assists. Picking it will be extremely risky for your team if you want to abuse it. You'll need to use Trish or another turtle character for safe calls. Consider all the aspects of using the assist. I have a very good feel for how major it is to sacrifice one's neutral with a passive assist.
riskVSreward
Member
Whats the main argument for removing bad evidence? If you applied all the other changes and left evidence as it is you would still have a much better character. Whats the point in making it this ridiculously easy to gather 3 evidence?
Bad reason.
But you don't even need to be Wright in this case to land the Objection, you just have to be your point character (say Wesker or someone with a decent teleport), and then build enough bar to DHC into Wright (he has enough time after a DHC to stance change and then Objection).
The problem with Frank's and Ammy's assists are also the fact that Cold Star and Shopping Cart are amazing. They still see some use, and I'm certain a good player could at least call Wright 3 times unless you make it crazy punishable.
I agree but if you make gaining good evidence so easy, that it would be easy enough to pick cellphone (AND he'd be able to use it as an assist now too with the assist changes), you'd eventually have an amazing neutral assist. Plus Wright with cellphone later on.
People don't like randomness.
I'm one of the few not for it.
She Hulk's AA misses on Morrigan because she has an absurdly skinny hit box, to the point where it even affects certain combos. The character is so skinny Dante's cr.L whiffs on her at point blank range. If anything it's Morrigan that should be adjusted.
Getting 5 bars is not the same as getting full evidence with PW. Mostly because PW was designed and balanced around him gathering the evidene himself while on point. That's why he has the Maya Shield. Combined with no bad evidences it makes getting TA a cinch, essentially equivalent to getting Frank (up back pipe until you get all evidence, get a hit and DHC into PW for free TA). Also after 3 calls the assist actually becomes a legitimate neutral game assist unlike Dark Harmonizer which has no utility once you reach max bars.
Getting 5 bars is not the same as getting full evidence with PW. Mostly because PW was designed and balanced around him gathering the evidene himself while on point. That's why he has the Maya Shield. Combined with no bad evidences it makes getting TA a cinch, essentially equivalent to getting Frank (up back pipe until you get all evidence, get a hit and DHC into PW for free TA). Also after 3 calls the assist actually becomes a legitimate neutral game assist unlike Dark Harmonizer which has no utility once you reach max bars.
"God's Beard!"
Member
But now TACs are guaranteed. So if you have room to call Phoenix 3 times, he's pretty much got it.
It also seems unlikely to me Capcom would ever want to remove the bad evidence. Aside from the fact that they designed him with it in the first place, it also defeats the purpose of them not wanting Wright to be used as just an assist (which probably would have happened if they didn't patch his invincible assists in Turnabout, this was also their reasoning behind patching it away too)
If good evidence was easy to obtain, and you could use cellphone as an assist, his team utility just went tonnnnnns up. If you're gonna keep that as an assist, you have to remove the ability to use the evidence as an assist.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71797996]But now TACs are guaranteed. So if you have room to call Phoenix 3 times, he's pretty much got it.[/QUOTE]
TAC wouldn't work unless he had an OTG assist, he'd presumably still be in Investigation mode. (I guess it could work now that he has Missile but depends on spacing) DHC would work though. And presumably, the top tiers will be nerfed some and Wright's normals will not be trash anymore, so landing an Objection while on point would be easier too...
If good evidence was easy to obtain, and you could use cellphone as an assist, his team utility just went tonnnnnns up. If you're gonna keep that as an assist, you have to remove the ability to use the evidence as an assist.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71797996]But now TACs are guaranteed. So if you have room to call Phoenix 3 times, he's pretty much got it.[/QUOTE]
TAC wouldn't work unless he had an OTG assist, he'd presumably still be in Investigation mode. (I guess it could work now that he has Missile but depends on spacing) DHC would work though. And presumably, the top tiers will be nerfed some and Wright's normals will not be trash anymore, so landing an Objection while on point would be easier too...
Those FGTV system changes are pretty much exactly ours (with regards to the ones we knew we wanted right off the jump) except they didn't put a meter tax on TAC attempts, add the small space on ground tech or talk about the assists during recovery stuff. Add that and it's perfect really.
I've gotten to a point with Dante lately where I don't even use his teleport except during Stinger for plink teleport - Vajra mixups or for the newly mastered after months of putting it off cjaycr/Cloud snap mixup. Forcing someone to block a Crystal from a Stinger gets me more mileage nowadays than anything teleport related.
I'm so ready to detail Hsien-Ko, Dante and Strider man. New team time.
I've gotten to a point with Dante lately where I don't even use his teleport except during Stinger for plink teleport - Vajra mixups or for the newly mastered after months of putting it off cjaycr/Cloud snap mixup. Forcing someone to block a Crystal from a Stinger gets me more mileage nowadays than anything teleport related.
I'm so ready to detail Hsien-Ko, Dante and Strider man. New team time.
Karsticles
Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71797996]But now TACs are guaranteed. So if you have room to call Phoenix 3 times, he's pretty much got it.[/QUOTE]
Right, but you need to hit your opponent. So it's still less powerful than Dark Harmonizer + Phoenix.
Right, but you need to hit your opponent. So it's still less powerful than Dark Harmonizer + Phoenix.
You could still snap Phoenix in before they reach 5 bars with Dark Harmonizer calls. You'd have to snap Wright in really early if you want them to not have a DHC setup. Wright also has much more health than Phoenix, so he has a better chance of surviving a post-snapback setup.
Poltergust
Member
That's 15 changes. You gave Maya L 3 individual buffs, made both Present Evidence and Paoerwork air-OK, and changed 2 of his assists. If we can only have 10 changes per character, then I would replace reducing the start-up frames on Maya M/H with c.H in Turnabout Mode hitting low. I would only keep the damage scaling buff on Maya L. I would not change any of his assists. Finally, I would remove the Ace Attorney start-up buff.
There. Now we're back to 10.
Karsticles
Member
Tell me all about Wright's amazing mobility options that get him out of incoming mix-ups.
Changing the assists is a personal project of mine - I'm not doing anything about that unless you think they are actual downgrades. I want everyone to have three good assist options.
I'll think about the rest of the suggestions. I think Dahbomb just doesn't want more than 10 bullet points, and he doesn't care about the actual number of changes made.
If you could provide a good defense of why bad evidence would be gone, I would appreciate it - you will do a better job of it than anyone here.
I think 10 different things is what I was talking. Like you can make a couple changes to a single move but still list it as one thing. But j.H and cr.H of She Hulk are two different normals, that's two changes. So more consolidation is needed.
Damn 10 changes and these characters are STILL just barely mid tier. lol
Damn 10 changes and these characters are STILL just barely mid tier. lol
Poltergust
Member
Gladly.
Let me say this straight out: bad evidence is an AWFUL mechanic that only serves to make an already bad character even worse. Why is that? Because Investigation Mode sucks. No amount of buffs we give Wright will make him a better character if he still has to spend a significant amount of time in that mode. The less time Wright has to spend in Investigation Mode, the more able he'll be to compete against the rest of the cast.
But let's tackle this from another perspective. With bad evidence gone, Wright would still have 6 random pieces of evidence (+meat) to pick up. With the pool of total evidence being smaller, Wright is more able to pick up the piece(s) of evidence that would be good for any particular match-ups he's in. For example, Trish is usually an annoying character to fight, but with the Cell Phone the match goes into Wright's favor. Another example is about how good a combination the Folder+Knife is against straightforward rushdown characters. Wright is more likely to get the evidence he needs for these match-ups instead of flailing around to get ANY good piece of evidence. It introduces a risk/reward factor for him since he could deal with just having unoptimal evidence, or attempt to go for the ideal evidence even if he has to throw away good evidence. I think that would make Wright a more interesting and dynamic character.
Bad evidence on PW is like every time Morrigan throws a fireball there's a chance she might throw out a dud ball and anyone can go through it. Or Vergil every time he teleport there's a chance of him getting too dizzy and just go into a dizzy state that is punishable. Or Zero everytime he shoots his Buster there's a chance of it over loading and back firing resulting in him falling in soft knockdown state.
Karsticles
Member
He said that we are doing such a great job here at NeoGAF that he felt no need to add further comment.
commanderpepper
Member
No not yet.