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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
Karsticles
Member
Zero will wish he got the MvC3 Sentinel treatment when I am done with him.
Just kidding.
I do want every Zero player on the planet to realize how much the character is carrying them, though.
Poltergust
Member
I think a good way for Lightning Loops to stop existing is to either subject the move to proper hitstun scaling or to increase its start-up frames.
Professor Beef
Banned
Taskmaster needs his health switched with Sentinel. I will lobby for this until the end of time.
I was more referring to the fact that with lower damage + not much meter at the start of the round, you'd have to burn more resources to kill Wright and not drop the combo as opposed to just magic series on Phoenix.
I don't disagree, bad evidence gone would make him a much better character. I just feel that instead of removing it out right, it should just be changed to have better use.
Shoot, you could even make the bad evidence have projectiles too, just worse off and not count towards getting into Turnabout mode. Removing it outright just seems too radical when you could change properties instead (ex: allowing you to get into Turnabout mode without 3 evidence but no Ace Attorney unless you do have 3, increase chances of good evidence, etc.).
I also think his stun combos are horribly underutilized outside of Turnabout mode to gather evidence. Granted, they're hard to setup because of his normals, but I think some buffs should help him able to utilize that for evidence gathering (the better normals/faster stance changing should help). If he has an easier time gathering good evidence, there's really no reason to ever go for this outside of resets I suppose. Also less reason to utilize DHC/THC setups to go for evidence (unless we make cell phone and such rarer to obtain which I'd be for if we're allowing him to always get good evidence or food) if he's guaranteed to get something good.
So tldr: Removing evidence would definitely make him better, but I think there's better ways of making him better without altering his design of being luck based.
Nerf buster, scale damage on lightning loop/reduce meter gain for Zero, and nerf some of his ridiculous normals. That's all I'd do to him.
Name another character in Marvel that can impose his/her will like Zero without an assist or Xfactor.
kevo_huevo
Member
Hah. :|
Poltergust
Member
Wright will still be luck-based, but now his luck won't be detrimental to him.
See, the problem I have with your argument is that you're justifying bad evidence ever existing in the first place. Capcom makes mistakes sometimes. Bad evidence is just a bad mechanic all around and shouldn't just remain simply because it's already part of his moveset. If it's such a radical change, then so be it. Wright wouldn't be the first character to go through something like that, anyways.
Professor Beef
Banned
Taskmaster wouldn't be any worse with Sentinel's health. I have vindictive changes I want made to Task, but in all honesty the health swap would probably be the only thing I would actually change.
Professor Beef
Banned
Double post, but I'll play ya. What was your PSN again? I did some pruning recently, and I want to make sure I didn't accidentally cut you.
Killa Sasa
Member
Spider. Sense. Install.
Add a couple cheaper hit bubbles or Spencer hit stun on air normals and you're in business.
Let Laura combo off both air grabs plz, and a better reason outside of otg or dirt nap to pick her over Logan.
Fine with Hawkeye.
Make Iron Man meaner on point. He's already crazy bus on support.
Kill all sword guys minus Dante and to a lesser extent Taskmaster. They think sometimes. Everything about remaining sword guys. I said kill, so you probably think I meant adjust accordingly. I really mean kill.
Johnny Blaze, Arthur, Danny Rand, and Chun need attention. As do others.
Missiles needs work.
PS the irony of a Vergil player calling wolverine brain dead is too rich. *puts on spiral swords *
Add a couple cheaper hit bubbles or Spencer hit stun on air normals and you're in business.
Let Laura combo off both air grabs plz, and a better reason outside of otg or dirt nap to pick her over Logan.
Fine with Hawkeye.
Make Iron Man meaner on point. He's already crazy bus on support.
Kill all sword guys minus Dante and to a lesser extent Taskmaster. They think sometimes. Everything about remaining sword guys. I said kill, so you probably think I meant adjust accordingly. I really mean kill.
Johnny Blaze, Arthur, Danny Rand, and Chun need attention. As do others.
Missiles needs work.
PS the irony of a Vergil player calling wolverine brain dead is too rich. *puts on spiral swords *
amodestproposal.
I agree, but I still feel that it'd make him more interesting if bad evidence had some use, then in that case, it would just deter him from getting into Turnabout right away, but not make him useless while he's trying to get rid of it to get the good stuff. It gives some (admittedly, artificially) danger while in Investigation mode, and I think having to turn around a bad situation like that in Marvel really does a good job of mimicking how the games' cases can go.
If it happened I'd use him of course, and enjoy the change, but I'm just giving some ideas on how to change the mechanic instead of removing it out right.
Professor Beef
Banned
I don't think anybody cares about mimicking his cases in marvel. They just want to have fun with the character. And shuffling through bad evidence is not fun in the slightest.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Make Iron Fist better.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Some real clothes would be a start.
Man, no. That character is batshit and I know you know that. If I had my honest-to-God way, he'd go back to being Vanilla Zero as a knockdown into mixup character with fair damage.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Lightning is no longer soft knockdown. Zero solved.
0f projectiles? wat.son
If we don't nerf him Capcom sure as hell will. I am 90% sure watching the Loops at EVO is what prompted the patch talk to begin with.
At the absolute minimum he needs soft knockdown on Lightning removed and scaling adjusted.
Poltergust
Member
The thing is, I'd rather have Wright be a good character than have him follow how his cases go. I think he already follows them will enough with his quotes and animations.
Investigation Mode will still suck even with no bad evidence, you know. It just makes it faster for one to get out of it. There's no way to buff Investigation Mode to make it worthwhile to remain in it unless you can guarantee getting good evidence each time you pick one up, even with the Maya buffs.
Killa Sasa
Member
Shit that hits behind itself (without having any reason to) needs to stop. Flocker beat Justin the last game of the Grand Finals with a cr. M that went the wrong way.
I know it's my own fault sometimes, but getting hit by the coat during Helm(et) Breakers by da Sparda Boyz shouldn't work either. Sword normals in general need to be reined the hell in.
I know it's my own fault sometimes, but getting hit by the coat during Helm(et) Breakers by da Sparda Boyz shouldn't work either. Sword normals in general need to be reined the hell in.
Professor Beef
Banned
GGs FSLink. That Spencer is soooooo annoying. :lol
Same thing with Dorm and the end of his air S.
Same thing with Dorm and the end of his air S.
Well yeah, I'm okay with Investigation Mode sucking, but I'll agree to disagree. I don't mind either one, I'm just think keeping it would be more interesting.
ggs Beef. Tried some new Wright teams, and figured out quickly that they're free to VJoe triple jump outside of the Spencer one (while he's on point).
No, Flocker beat Justin that last game because Justin got greedy with Storm trying to kill Zero meterless.
People get hit by disjointed normals in this game all the time and sword normals are not the only culprit although getting hit by the coat part from Helm Breaker is all sorts of wrong.
Killa Sasa
Member
Eh, I meant literally. That was the turning point, but watching Akuma get Dixie Kong'd right at the end into a Zero combo got a boo-urns out of me because the set was wicked.
I'm okay with disjointed normals, but when things get dumber than Logan's St. L, that's my Exit Stage Left. That St. L is so tasty though.
Word. Keep it Marvel, but Marvel doesn't HAVE to be Baby's First Normals.
How about instead of calling for nerfs after viewing that set.. call for buffs?
For example if that Typhoon hit Justin would've won that set. Why did it miss? The move has god damn 63 frames of start up. If it was even slightly faster the out come of that match would've been a lot different.
Zero is going to get nerfed if this patch is a reality. We can skip the Zero portion and he would still get put down without our input. It's a character like Storm who needs more adjustments, a good portion of her movelist is useless.
For example if that Typhoon hit Justin would've won that set. Why did it miss? The move has god damn 63 frames of start up. If it was even slightly faster the out come of that match would've been a lot different.
Zero is going to get nerfed if this patch is a reality. We can skip the Zero portion and he would still get put down without our input. It's a character like Storm who needs more adjustments, a good portion of her movelist is useless.
Killa Sasa
Member
It's because I hate Zero T_T I've hated him for 2 games.
Agreed though. Storm getting jiggy was fun to watch and giving her more juice would be even better.
A lot of moves in this game were there because "well, the old version had it," and you can tell that not a ton of thought went into some of them -- that's how you end up with 63 frame typhoon, haha. Any move that takes a second better be badass.
Dorm has some buttons that make me wonder how you're ever supposed to approach him without a sword sometimes. Nothing like s.M anti-airing from behind the character in a manner that definitely looks like it shouldn't work just because of how active his standing series is. :lol
Even with buffs to the rest of the cast characters like Zero will still be miles ahead of the rest of the cast.
The again, how about a list of characters who are fine as they are. By figuring out who woould work as they are right now we can focus on characters who have too much such as (Vergil) or not enough (such as Hsien-ko) Assuming system wide stuff like TAC infinites are patched out.
I think Hawkeye is perfectly fine.
I think FGTV already recommended double jump on her. They tested it in H&H. Air dash She Hulk was way too derpy.
Characters who I believe are mostly fine and need minimal changes:
Taskmaster
Amaterasu
Nova
Dante
Dormammu
Hawkeye
MODOK
Hulk
Felicia
Strider
Haggar
Chris
Viewtiful Joe
Frank West
Spider Man
Wesker
Trish
Most of these characters are in the Upper Mid or higher competitive category. If you are better than these characters then you are a bit too good but if you are worse you probably need help.
Exceptions would include characters liks Strange or Firebrand who even though are good competitive characters still need quite a few changes either way. That is to say need both nerfs and buffs.
Characters who I believe are mostly fine and need minimal changes:
Taskmaster
Amaterasu
Nova
Dante
Dormammu
Hawkeye
MODOK
Hulk
Felicia
Strider
Haggar
Chris
Viewtiful Joe
Frank West
Spider Man
Wesker
Trish
Most of these characters are in the Upper Mid or higher competitive category. If you are better than these characters then you are a bit too good but if you are worse you probably need help.
Exceptions would include characters liks Strange or Firebrand who even though are good competitive characters still need quite a few changes either way. That is to say need both nerfs and buffs.
I agree with this. These characters are a good bar to use to judge others against (except Frank- lvl4+ Frank currently is too good, IMO).
Looking at most tier lists and my own... there are really only 5 characters that require substantial nerfs.
Zero, Viper, Vergil, Magneto and Doom. The top 5 so to speak. Some people think Morrigan require substantial nerfs others don't so that one I would say falls into controversial character. People generally hate Morrigan, Wolverine and Phoenix but these characters are not THAT powerful, it's just their playstyles people hate. Barring character reworks, there isn't much you can do about that.
About 10 characters require substantial buffs: Ghost Rider, Hsien Ko, Phoenix Wright, She Hulk, Tron, Nemesis, Iron Fist, Chun Li, Shuma Gorath, Arthur.
Zero, Viper, Vergil, Magneto and Doom. The top 5 so to speak. Some people think Morrigan require substantial nerfs others don't so that one I would say falls into controversial character. People generally hate Morrigan, Wolverine and Phoenix but these characters are not THAT powerful, it's just their playstyles people hate. Barring character reworks, there isn't much you can do about that.
About 10 characters require substantial buffs: Ghost Rider, Hsien Ko, Phoenix Wright, She Hulk, Tron, Nemesis, Iron Fist, Chun Li, Shuma Gorath, Arthur.
It's fun to dream.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Magneto doesn't need nerfs! He's the Ryu of Marvel! Just reduce the damage on Hyper Grav L and he won't get so much meter.
The only one of those characters that needs more than 1 nerf is Vergil. And I'd only nerf him twice.
The only one of those characters that needs more than 1 nerf is Vergil. And I'd only nerf him twice.
Zero/Vergil indisputably need nerfs. Viper needs some, but it's harder to tell how much she needs to be nerfed since she has so much less player representation relative to Zero/Vergil. Magneto and Doom straddle the 'require substantial nerfs' and 'mostly ok' zones. Magneto will already be getting nerfed due to system changes (no more whiffed rapid fire st.L), and both lose TAC infinites. Are you mostly saying these two need a damage reduction? Doom stands out the most amongst the five you mentioned as needing his support value specifically toned down.
Dahbomb, you're my hero. I honestly have no issues with your "Needs buffed" or "Needs nerfed" lists. And I really like your idea of calling for buffs since we know Zero is gonna get hit hard.
I swear, if Marvel gets even a fraction of the love Street Fighter gets, I'm gonna be so happy.
I swear, if Marvel gets even a fraction of the love Street Fighter gets, I'm gonna be so happy.
I don't want to talk about the top tiers yet because they will have their day. I am just gonna say that the argument used against Viper was the same one used against Zero. Loses to zoning, not enough placement in tournaments. There are at least 3 things wrong with the character that needs addressing, about the same as Zero and Vergil.
Magneto escaping without any nerfs would result in him being the undeniable best character in the game. Doom doesn't need a lot of major point nerfs, he is the only one who needs support nerfs. TAC nerfs doesn't just affect these characters, it affects characters like MODOK as well who need the TAC to "power up". Or Iron Man, Storm, Trish etc.
Magneto escaping without any nerfs would result in him being the undeniable best character in the game. Doom doesn't need a lot of major point nerfs, he is the only one who needs support nerfs. TAC nerfs doesn't just affect these characters, it affects characters like MODOK as well who need the TAC to "power up". Or Iron Man, Storm, Trish etc.
I'll help out with Viper since I main her. I can automatically tell you though that I'd probably only have three real nerfs for her.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
I was gonna ask about this. So you guys aren't doing the Capcom shit and doing nerfs and buffs just for the sake of it right? Cause I agree that a lot of characters don't really need much tweaking.
Does anyone have a list of the system changes? This thread has been moving pretty damn fast and I'm just now about to list my character changes and I would likely need that list to properly adjust characters.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Zero
Viper
Vergil
Magneto
Doom
Fine. Happy?
:-(
- Lightning is no longer soft knockdown
- Zero Blaster startup increased from 5 to 10 frames
Viper
- Focus attack startup increased from 77 to 90 frames
- Seismic Hammer assist replaced with Optic Blast
Vergil
- 2H no longer soft knockdown
- Spiral Swords durability reduced to 1 High Durability per sword
- Spiral Swords costs two bars, one free follow up
Magneto
- Hyper Grav damage reduced to 50k
- Magnetic Blast reduced to 3 low durability
- Force Field M and H have 5 and 10 more active frames, respectively
Doom
- Footdive now causes a normal ground bounce when not used after a launcher
- Hidden Missiles assist startup increased from 50 to 65 frames
- Plasma beam assist starts slightly closer to the player
Fine. Happy?
:-(
Haha, everyone's so excited, we can't even stick to one set of characters anymore. This is cool.
God's Beard: I was actually thinking lowered damage scaling, making a fully charged Focus Attack anti-air a strike instead of a soft knockdown (gotta learn your legit confirm for the followups) and maaaaaaaaybe (emphasis on the maaaaaaaaaaaybe lol) making Seismo JCs slower since Rapid Seismo/Seismo-FADCs/Seismo-Laser is oppressive as fuck for a good portion of the cast with the right assists/circumstances.
Optic Laser assist man... I'd be in heaven.
God's Beard: I was actually thinking lowered damage scaling, making a fully charged Focus Attack anti-air a strike instead of a soft knockdown (gotta learn your legit confirm for the followups) and maaaaaaaaybe (emphasis on the maaaaaaaaaaaybe lol) making Seismo JCs slower since Rapid Seismo/Seismo-FADCs/Seismo-Laser is oppressive as fuck for a good portion of the cast with the right assists/circumstances.
Optic Laser assist man... I'd be in heaven.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71844996]Zero
No need to nerf Buster all that much, he can't use it all the time. Zero seriously needs a scaling nerf (the values are way too high, even before he does loops he can get around 800K meterless). On top of that the only real nerf he needs is that after he does Lightning and cancels into Buster, that Lightning should not persist. It's obviously an unintended feature of Buster cancelling, the Lightning that persists turns into an infinite durability projectile. So these would be my 3 nerfs: Lightning no longer soft knockdown, scaling nerfed and Lightning does not persist after Buster cancel. These 3 nerfs I would say are required, beyond that I would say stuff like active frames on his normals are kinda ridiculous so maybe shave a few frames off here and there nothing too much.
Outside of the 3 main system problems with Vergil (RT glitch, Dimension slash cross up and XF + buff stacking) here is what I would nerf on him:
*SS 2 bars, follow ups are free if you input the command at the hyper screen. If you do it late then they cost a bar.
*Cannot cancel Helm Breaker into SH or any special move except the teleport (to keep parity with the games). Helm Breaker posterior hit box adjusted.
*Devil Trigger activation time reduced
*St.H hit box adjusted to match on screen visual animation.
The 2 bars SS is a substantial nerf but that is a better solution than doing a number of other nerfs like messing with his scaling, HSD, durability, Lunar Phase damage nerf. 2 bar SS basically dramatically nerfs his DHC damage inflation, his own combos, his point neutral game etc. He is still an extremely good anchor but not as potent and his point game is more similar to Wesker now only he has better usage of meter than him.
- Lightning is no longer soft knockdown
- Zero Blaster startup increased from 5 to 10 frames
No need to nerf Buster all that much, he can't use it all the time. Zero seriously needs a scaling nerf (the values are way too high, even before he does loops he can get around 800K meterless). On top of that the only real nerf he needs is that after he does Lightning and cancels into Buster, that Lightning should not persist. It's obviously an unintended feature of Buster cancelling, the Lightning that persists turns into an infinite durability projectile. So these would be my 3 nerfs: Lightning no longer soft knockdown, scaling nerfed and Lightning does not persist after Buster cancel. These 3 nerfs I would say are required, beyond that I would say stuff like active frames on his normals are kinda ridiculous so maybe shave a few frames off here and there nothing too much.
2H causing soft knockdown is IRRELEVANT when you are making Spiral Swords a 2 bar hyper. As is reducing the durability. For 2 bars, I better the hell be able to beat out LVL1 hypers.
Outside of the 3 main system problems with Vergil (RT glitch, Dimension slash cross up and XF + buff stacking) here is what I would nerf on him:
*SS 2 bars, follow ups are free if you input the command at the hyper screen. If you do it late then they cost a bar.
*Cannot cancel Helm Breaker into SH or any special move except the teleport (to keep parity with the games). Helm Breaker posterior hit box adjusted.
*Devil Trigger activation time reduced
*St.H hit box adjusted to match on screen visual animation.
The 2 bars SS is a substantial nerf but that is a better solution than doing a number of other nerfs like messing with his scaling, HSD, durability, Lunar Phase damage nerf. 2 bar SS basically dramatically nerfs his DHC damage inflation, his own combos, his point neutral game etc. He is still an extremely good anchor but not as potent and his point game is more similar to Wesker now only he has better usage of meter than him.
I personally liked Frantic's change on Mag Blasts. Make Magnetic Blasts L version 3 durability, M version 4 and H version 5. On top of that, the move has crazy low recovery... the move is damn near impossible to punish and is like +20 or some shit on block. The other two changes are good too.
I think the main problem with the Foot Dive is the trajectory + hit box. A lot of characters cannot approach from the air and have to approach from the ground, which means they are automatically at a huge disadvantage against Doom because you can't be below him. If his Foot Dive could easily be read if it would cross up or not then it wouldn't be such a hassle being below him. I don't know how I would adjust it but it definitely needs adjusting. Missile needs a bigger nerf than that for sure. Plasma Beam nerf is just right. The only other thing I would add is slightly less HSD on his OTG moves so that you don't get brain dead quadruple relaunches as your BnB.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Yeah I'm gonna try to stick to suggested characters so this doesn't become messy. I might just have to list my character changes without knowing the system changes. I'm gonna go back and try to find the system changes in a while though if no one can post them.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Seismo FADC cancels are hard as balls, though! I don't think Viper needs many nerfs. She's just a character that fights only with special moves. Of course they should be better.
Focus stuff is kinda fucked up, though.
I'm gonna say no to the normals nerfing too, other than increasing his crouching light startup by a frame. Buster nerf just means it's easier to throw him out of bullshit crossups and he doesn't get the same fullscreen clone pressure.
I'm open to other focus changes, but I think making unblockables harder should be the priority. I'm fine with EX Seismo, she's an all-specials character and that's her defense. Maybe make it so it doesn't bounce them, so the only way to confirm with it is FADCs. I'm also not convinced on nerfing her scaling.
No it's not, because most people will just DHC to Devil Trigger and do close to the exact same corner combos they did before. And without soft knockdown, 2H HSD kicks in before most people's meterless combos finish.
I'm not giving him the durability, I'm giving him an extra hyper. And you can beat level 1 hypers, just not all of them and you have to move faster than before. Waah waah.
And I'm keeping his dumb Devil Trigger the way it is, so Vergil players aren't allowed to complain.
Doom is the air control character. People should be at a huge advantage below him, like fighting Sentinel in MVC2. I'm perfectly fine with Footdive the way it is as Doom's last line of defense in the air, I just don't think he should get free confirms that last 3 seconds off of it. His combos aren't the issue if he has to work for them.
Focus stuff is kinda fucked up, though.
Nah, don't agree on the scaling nerf if you get rid of soft knockdown on lightning. That one move connects so much of his game. No soft knockdown means no lightning loops, no extended combos, confirms from the air are way harder. Buster lightning gets nerfed because buster bounces them into the lightning and kills the soft knockdown. I really think the one nerf handles everything.
I'm gonna say no to the normals nerfing too, other than increasing his crouching light startup by a frame. Buster nerf just means it's easier to throw him out of bullshit crossups and he doesn't get the same fullscreen clone pressure.
I'm open to other focus changes, but I think making unblockables harder should be the priority. I'm fine with EX Seismo, she's an all-specials character and that's her defense. Maybe make it so it doesn't bounce them, so the only way to confirm with it is FADCs. I'm also not convinced on nerfing her scaling.
No it's not, because most people will just DHC to Devil Trigger and do close to the exact same corner combos they did before. And without soft knockdown, 2H HSD kicks in before most people's meterless combos finish.
I'm not giving him the durability, I'm giving him an extra hyper. And you can beat level 1 hypers, just not all of them and you have to move faster than before. Waah waah.
And I'm keeping his dumb Devil Trigger the way it is, so Vergil players aren't allowed to complain.
That makes no sense. All three versions of Mag Blasts are the same damn thing, they just move at different speeds. And they all do the same exact thing with plink dashing. 3 low durability for all of them. This keeps him from matching designated zoning characters so easily while keeping his trademark space control. It's not a hard punish so much as most characters can't easily break it without hypers. The recovery speed doesn't matter at the heights people use it.
Doom is the air control character. People should be at a huge advantage below him, like fighting Sentinel in MVC2. I'm perfectly fine with Footdive the way it is as Doom's last line of defense in the air, I just don't think he should get free confirms that last 3 seconds off of it. His combos aren't the issue if he has to work for them.