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[Karsticles]

Double jumps are OK because it was a design choice and characters were balanced around it. Just like walk speed disparity. Chun Li has low health because she has reversal options, a triple jump and good specials for stuffing rushdown. Not being able to triple jump at start of round makes her a worse point character. Aside from Dante (who has a 8 frame jab), all characters who have a double/triple jump were generally design to be played up front. It makes sense when you look at who has it (Chun Li, Deadpool, Joe, Cap, Viper). If you disallow these characters from jumping at start you nerf their advantage and you make walk speed a pointless attribute on characters.. By allowing more characters to do other options you shift balance from these characters to fliers who already have enough advantage as it is.

I am not dodging any thing, I am on a cellphone and I can't make long multiquote posts. It's hard to post, go back to read quotes then copy/paste stuff and the longer the post the harder it is to manage all while writing
coherently.

And you can't have footsie battles "pre match" without attacks being involved. That goes against the definition of the word.

Footsies are all about the spacing, not the attacks.

I completely agree with your analysis of double jump characters. Now let's spread that love so more characters are viable on point.

I suppose I consider point viability and matchups very similar in the sense that a characters point viability is going to depend on his matchup in the opening, haha. I know you were talking to Dahbomb but I didn't point out Dorm because you play him, but simply because he probably has the shittiest opening gambit in the game. He can only open against a handful of characters as I'm sure you're aware. But yeah I absolutely would not change that at all. I like characters having certain roles in the game and Dorm is just a character that is better played second. I mean you can play him on point.....it's just a huge risk depending on the other persons team. I personally love playing Dorm backed by Dark Harmonizer and missiles. If I can survive the opening then it's like infinite Stalking Flares and many lols are had.....and much hatemail is received.

I will stand by the point that I do think it's perfectly fine that some characters get to get away for free at the start. It's just a benefit of picking that character.

Ground dashes might be ok though. I'm not too sure about air dashes though. Hell I didn't like jumping when I first played vanilla....I was like wtf since you couldn't do that in other games.

Put Morrigan on point instead of Dormammu that team and DHC him in through Shadow Servant like it's Magnetic Shockwave for better results. What do you mean about Vanilla? You couldn't air dash pre-round in that.

Yeah, Dormammu does have the worst opening gambit. I don't really know what to do about that...I've had some ideas, but I doubt people will back them, and I'm not even sure if I like them...

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71955396]How about a compromise? No superjumps, and your buttons get locked out.

So you can dash, but all your movement has to be done with the stick.[/QUOTE]
I'm not opposed to this, but why lock out buttons like that? I've already dropped superjumps - that would be too much.

 

[Dahbomb]

Magneto is not broken. He's strong. Nobody complains about braindead Magneto players walking over everyone for free. Nobody complains about insane Magneto damage he didn't earn. He doesn't have any insane near-unstoppable mixup or endless pressure. He just has the tools to fight everyone and he does well at it.

I never said he is broken, I said he's top 5. When you nerf the other 4 in that top 5 and keep Magneto mostly the safe... what do you think is going to happen? And people complain about Mag Blasts all day long especially the safety of their use and their block stun.

I'm not willing to change a character based on how much damage you think his archetype should do. That's the definition of arbitrary. If it's not broken, I won't touch it. I'd rather fix the egregious problems and work through a variety of buffs on underused tools to make everybody more interesting.

Dorm's easy damage is a problem REGARDLESS of what type of character he is. I just made the analogy to Wolverine because everyone says he has brain dead easy damage but it gets hard to break 750K for 1 bar from him. This isn't about being arbitrary it's about keeping with the standards that we put into place.... 800K for baby mode combo is absurd.

You should probably avoid Street Fighter analogies. Akuma is a character that traditionally has a tool that only belongs to him, that opposes the majority of the cast, and gets additional layers on wakeup mixups that other characters don't get in exchange for fragility.

Let's see:

Akuma: High mobility character, high mix ups, great zoning/rushdown, has mix ups on wake up, is a fragile character

Magneto: High mobility character, high mix ups, great zoning/rushdown, has mix ups on in coming/wake up, is a fragile character

In Marvel, that means Zero. Ryu has a collection of strong tools that let him fight a variety of opponents. Like Magneto. 8-way airdash characters are the shotos of Marvel.

Ryu has a strong collection of tools that let him fight a variety of opponents.... sounds exactly like Taskmaster who is a fundamental based character that is easy to play and easy to pick up and can fight a variety of opponents.

8 way air dash characters are the shotos? So you just confirmed that Akuma = Magneto.

Sounds like you just want to avoid comparing Magneto to Akuma. No way in hell is Magneto in UMVC3 comparable to Ryu in AE... unless you think Ryu is top 5 in AE.

Footsies are all about the spacing, not the attacks

.

“Footsies” is oldschool slang for the mid-range ground-based aspect of fighting game strategy. It refers to a situation where both players are outside of combo range and attack each other with long-range, generally safe attacks (pokes). The ultimate goal is to control the flow of the match, bait the opponent into committing errors, and punish everything.

You can't have footsies without actual attacks. The whole term originated from SF players throwing out cr.MK against each other and trying to beat each other's normals.

Now let's spread that love so more characters are viable on point.

So give them double jumps or better options for dealing with opening gambit?

I'm not opposed to this, but why lock out buttons like that? I've already dropped superjumps - that would be too much.

Because then you can't plink dash around.

You can't lock out buttons because Zero has to charge before the round starts. Although I guess you would be removing that from him if you lock out button presses.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Put Morrigan on point instead of Dormammu that team and DHC him in through Shadow Servant like it's Magnetic Shockwave for better results. What do you mean about Vanilla? You couldn't air dash pre-round in that.

Yeah, Dormammu does have the worst opening gambit. I don't really know what to do about that...I've had some ideas, but I doubt people will back them, and I'm not even sure if I like them...

Yeah I use her on point occasionally depending on who the opponent is opening with, but believe it or not I'm actually way more comfortable opening with Dorm than with Morrigan. If Morrigan dies then I'm just kinda disheartened because I know I've probably already lost. I can't survive incoming mixup and create space with Dorm for shit. At least if Dorm dies at the beginning I know I can probably survive the mixup with Morrigan and I already will have a bar to spend on Astral Vision.

What I meant about vanilla was the simple fact that you could jump pre match. You couldn't do that in other Vs games and it threw me off at first. I was just pointing a change from MvC2 to MvC3 that irked me at first.

 

[Karsticles]

So give them double jumps or better options for dealing with opening gambit?

The real root of footsies is the spacing. My point is that allowing more mobility will allow for that first moment to be one that is footsie-like, whereas the current system just promotes pushing the dumbest button you have.

And enabling air dashes and ground dashes are the better options for the opening gambit.

Do tell me how you would give the following characters good start of the round options:
*Dormammu
*Ghost Rider
*Thor
*Skrull
*Hsien-ko
*Chris
*Nemesis

If you don't want more mobility options at the start of the round, everyone on the committee has to be on board with giving these characters buffs that give them start of the round options they don't currently have. I'm okay with that, but is everyone else?

Yeah I use her on point occasionally depending on who the opponent is opening with, but believe it or not I'm actually way more comfortable opening with Dorm than with Morrigan. If Morrigan dies then I'm just kinda disheartened because I know I've probably already lost. I can't survive incoming mixup and create space with Dorm for shit. At least if Dorm dies at the beginning I know I can probably survive the mixup with Morrigan and I already will have a bar to spend on Astral Vision.

What I meant about vanilla was the simple fact that you could jump pre match. You couldn't do that in other Vs games and it threw me off at first. I was just pointing a change from MvC2 to MvC3 that irked me at first.

Always burn X-Factor if Dormammu has to come in against his terms. He's dead otherwise. The pressure is just too much.

I forgot that you couldn't jump pre-match in MvC2. That's another option: if we remove jumps pre-match, then every round will start with f.H, throw teched, characters separated, and then we'll have a real neutral to start with. Thoughts on that?

 

["God's Beard!"]

has mix ups on wake up

Magneto is Adon confirmed

 

[Dahbomb]

Ghost Rider has start of the round Heartless Spire OS and back dash with it. The best you could do with Ghost Rider is improving the hit box on Spire so that the visual animation actually matches the hit box because right now there is a tip on his fire that you can dive kick through and that is what gets Ghost Rider beat against Wolverine most of the time. Better yet you can make Spire special cancellable into his Yoga Flame or other specials so he can do the anti air Yoga flame after spire for max coverage.

Thor you have to give armor on one his normals. Even if he escapes start of round he still has a hell of a time escaping pressure. For a big body he really lacks defensive capabilities. The best he got is his lvl1 hyper and that's a hail mary at start of round.

Nemesis needs faster start up on his armor moves. The start up to get to the armor portion of his moves is really stupid. He was always designed to be an armor characters but the armored moves don't start up at the time that you would want them. Have armor start up faster and he would be better.

Chris is not that bad start of round mostly because his throw game is so fearful and he actually has good normals up close. Once he gets his mines going he makes it hell for rushdown characters so I don't think a big change is needed.

Skrull can probably have his Orbital Grudge buffed some what and another follow up added after it that makes it safe. Fatal Buster is for combo/hit confirms but he needs a move to make it safe because he really has shit for making his stuff safe. Other than that probably buff his H on the ground.

Hsien Ko I have never played but you could probably just add some invincibility start up to her armor hyper and she becomes devastating at the start.

if we remove jumps pre-match, then every round will start with f.H, throw teched, characters separated, and then we'll have a real neutral to start with. Thoughts on that?

That actually makes it worse because now you have less options at the start and puts double jumpers at a disadvantage. This would just result in two characters humping each other while mashing f.H, tech and then assist comes out like Lariat which beats out the mashing or a Tatsu. At least if you are in the air you can tech and that leads to more space created and you can maybe even a chicken block a dive kick. And humping is not the only option, Wolverine can still do H, call assist, Berserker Slash or cr.L you preventing you from jumping, assist is called you get locked down and opened up. At least when you are already in the air the high/low is negated. I don't like this idea much at all to be honest.

Also I am not sure what our post tech changes are. Are assists disabled? Are we throw invincible? How much is the character distance?

 

[Frantic]

The most I could ever agree to during pre-match time was no movement. As that goes against Marvel tradition, I opted against it (even if I think it'd be a wonderful change) and hoped that the throw tech changes would make up for it.

Allowing full movement options pre-match is just asking for a ton of trouble. Morrigan, Magneto, Dorm and Zero would never be touched, Vergil gets even nuttier, Haggar would never be outside of command throw range, Strider would just be lol... Fucking DANTE, a character that struggles during the beginning of things, would wind up dictating match progression with plink dashes.

I still say Strider is already pretty lol. Strider at the start gives me so much confidence that I once threw Wolverine out of his dive kick six times in a row.

Also, how does everyone feel about Wolverine's j.L?

 

[Karsticles]

Ghost Rider has start of the round Heartless Spire OS and back dash with it. The best you could do with Ghost Rider is improving the hit box on Spire so that the visual animation actually matches the hit box because right now there is a tip on his fire that you can dive kick through and that is what gets Ghost Rider beat against Wolverine most of the time. Better yet you can make Spire special cancellable into his Yoga Flame or other specials so he can do the anti air Yoga flame after spire for max coverage.

Man, you need to play Ghost Rider or look at his frame data before typing this stuff. Heartless Spire has a 15 frame startup. That's not winning anything at the start of the match. Ghost Rider gets opened up hard at the start. His walk speed is slow, and all of his normals are slow.

Thor you have to give armor on one his normals. Even if he escapes start of round he still has a hell of a time escaping pressure. For a big body he really lacks defensive capabilities. The best he got is his lvl1 hyper and that's a hail mary at start of round.

Agreed on giving him armor on something.

Nemesis needs faster start up on his armor moves. The start up to get to the armor portion of his moves is really stupid. He was always designed to be an armor characters but the armored moves don't start up at the time that you would want them. Have armor start up faster and he would be better.

I want his launcher to have hyper armor, like Sentinel.

Chris is not that bad start of round mostly because his throw game is so fearful and he actually has good normals up close. Once he gets his mines going he makes it hell for rushdown characters so I don't think a big change is needed.

That's not start of the round.

Skrull can probably have his Orbital Grudge buffed some what and another follow up added after it that makes it safe. Fatal Buster is for combo/hit confirms but he needs a move to make it safe because he really has shit for making his stuff safe. Other than that probably buff his H on the ground.

What's wrong with his s.H? It's already his best normal next to s.L.

Hsien Ko I have never played but you could probably just add some invincibility start up to her armor hyper and she becomes devastating at the start.

No way. Hsien-ko players who want to abuse the assist need to earn that hyper. And no one should have to spend a bar to survive the start of the round. That's nuts.

That actually makes it worse because now you have less options at the start and puts double jumpers at a disadvantage. This would just result in two characters humping each other while mashing f.H, tech and then assist comes out like Lariat which beats out the mashing or a Tatsu. At least if you are in the air you can tech and that leads to more space created and you can maybe even a chicken block a dive kick. And humping is not the only option, Wolverine can still do H, call assist, Berserker Slash or cr.L you preventing you from jumping, assist is called you get locked down and opened up. At least when you are already in the air the high/low is negated. I don't like this idea much at all to be honest.

But we're adding space creation post-tech.

Why do you think it's bad to remove mobility options at the start of the match because it would make the gambit too strong for some teams, but you want to keep the current gambit even though it's inherently bad for a lot of teams, and you also think it's bad to add mobility options at the start of the match to help the gambit be more fair?

Also I am not sure what our post tech changes are. Are assists disabled? Are we throw invincible? How much is the character distance?

GB said he would never support assists being disabled post-throw, and I'm not a big fan of it myself, so I removed it.

Throw Changes:
*Throw tech window increased by 3 frames (from 7 to 10).
*You cannot be grabbed during tech recovery.
*Ground throw techs put one character-length distance between the two characters.
*Throws can only be initiated with f.H and b.H.

I still say Strider is already pretty lol. Strider at the start gives me so much confidence that I once threw Wolverine out of his dive kick six times in a row.

Also, how does everyone feel about Wolverine's j.L?

I think Wolverine needs an instant overhead. What's wrong with the j.L?

 

["God's Beard!"]

I think throw invincible for a few frames after a tech solves the main issue people have with techs.

 

[FSLink]

I know I'm alone on this but I still support bad evidence. Just the frequency of it needs to be toned. Also the evidence pool needs to fixed in player matches.

In player matches evidence tends to recycle to the same evidences every time you rematch. If I start a player match and don't go back to the character select screen and play ten matches in a row. My evidence should not be Knife, Folder, Meatbun, Bad evidence, Photo 9/10 starts. Last time me and FSLink did ditto Wrights at start. We always did Maya Shield and grabbed four pieces of evidence and we both would get the same ones everytime. I don't know if this is a glitch or intentional but it needs to be randomized like in versus or ranked.

I remember Lythero said during a tourney if he got a really crappy pull of evidence on his first match he would go back to the select screen to try to get a better pull. This is dumb. I don't do this but I can see why one would.

Nah I support bad evidence too but what if we make it predetermined like Teddie's items in Persona 4 Arena? Like....Watch -> Food (10% chance of being bad evidence) -> Photo -> Food (10% or whatever chance of being bad evidence)....last ones being Folder, Vase, Knife, Cell phone. Eliminates randomness of WHEN you get a good piece or not, but you have to do more evidence pulls to get certain ones.

My problem with good evidence being too easy to get is because you'd potentially get the better items easier. I don't currently like the fact that it's so rare now that you're happy with whatever you get, but I don't think just making everything 100% good is the way to go. This would add some depth since you'd have to determine if you just want to stick with Watch, Photo, Folder in Trial and Turnabout or do you want to go for Cell Phone and Knife?

And I think that glitch is definitely unintentional....but if we make it predetermined then it's whatever.

I'm fine with Wolvie's j.L

I'm actually fine with everything about Wolverine besides Fatal Claw damage. That is honestly the one and only change I would make to him. Nothing else. I'd like him to somehow be able to heal but not quite sure how. I know Karst suggested healing during Berserker Charge.....but it would be too strong in my opinion. And I wouldn't want to decrease his speed boost to balance it out. Meh....

Make it heal red health faster like Dante/Vergil DT?

RE: Wesker's glasses mechanic a couple pages back, I think the speed boost is interesting, but the power boost is stupid. Really really stupid. Speed boost makes his combos different and gives him new combo opportunities, that stuff is interesting. Getting what's equivalent to a XF1 boost is not.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

I'm fine with Wolvie's j.L

I'm actually fine with everything about Wolverine besides Fatal Claw damage. That is honestly the one and only change I would make to him. Nothing else. I'd like him to somehow be able to heal but not quite sure how. I know Karst suggested healing during Berserker Charge.....but it would be too strong in my opinion. And I wouldn't want to decrease his speed boost to balance it out. Meh....

 

["God's Beard!"]

I think Thor is better than people realize at the start of the round. He's not trying to escape.

I want more active frames on his command grabs, though. And I want them to carry momentum a little bit from airdashes.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71963211]I think throw invincible for a few frames after a tech solves the main issue people have with techs.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I think the distance after teching should remain the way it is.

 

[Dahbomb]

Man, you need to play Ghost Rider or look at his frame data before typing this stuff. Heartless Spire has a 15 frame startup. That's not winning anything at the start of the match. Ghost Rider gets opened up hard at the start. His walk speed is slow, and all of his normals are slow.

I know that but it does trade in some cases. If he's slightly further than hump range the Spire does work. And I have played Ghost Rider quite a lot, the back dash + HS is pretty good for creating space. Yeah he gets owned at start of the round but really.. the character is garbage anyway. Even if he got space he still gets rushed down and zoned out. So what I see is a fundamental problem with the character not just the opening gambit. If he had great zoning/keep away, then his opening gambit problems wouldn't be that big of a deal because once he's set he's set.

That's not start of the round.

I know that but I was sort of making this comparison to Ghost Rider. Unlike Ghost Rider, when Chris is established he is hard to get in on which sort of mitigates his opening gambit problem.

What's wrong with his s.H? It's already his best normal next to s.L

.
I didn't say anything was wrong with it but rather if you want to buff his opening gambit game then you start with the st.H. Like if it had armor that would make him a really strong start of the game character. All of these changes are just brain storm suggestions, they aren't completely serious stuff.

No way. Hsien-ko players who want to abuse the assist need to earn that hyper. And no one should have to spend a bar to survive the start of the round. That's nuts.

Well Viper players sometimes EX Seismo at start of round and that gives her a very clear advantage at start. Sometimes it might be worthwhile spending that bar.

I don't know shit about Hsien Ko other than she's a shit character. So someone who knows the character can give better suggestions. Besides just like Ghost Rider and Nemesis, opening gambit is just one of her many problems so it boils down to fundamental flaw.

Throw Changes:
*Throw tech window increased by 3 frames (from 7 to 10).
*You cannot be grabbed during tech recovery.
*Ground throw techs put one character-length distance between the two characters.
*Throws can only be initiated with f.H and b.H.

If you change the 3rd one with throw invincibility after a throw tech then I say this is sufficient. The main reason why the distance thing was suggested because people do not want throw tech ad infinitum ever again.

 

[Frantic]

I think Wolverine needs an instant overhead. What's wrong with the j.L?

I have no qualms with him having an instant overhead, I just remember seeing him instant overhead Rocket Raccoon and having a 'wtf' moment. I don't think any of the other characters with instant overheads can do that, but I might be wrong.

And I'm kinda trying to bring the conversation back to the four proposed characters rather than what is currently being discussed. lol

 

["God's Beard!"]

I have no qualms with him having an instant overhead, I just remember seeing him instant overhead Rocket Raccoon and having a 'wtf' moment. I don't think any of the other characters with instant overheads can do that, but I might be wrong.

And I'm kinda trying to bring the conversation back to the four proposed characters rather than what is currently being discussed. lol

Rocket Raccoon can instant overhead Rocket Raccoon. Storm too. And MODOK.

 

[Dahbomb]

I am pretty sure Shuma's instant overhead works on every character. Storm too.

We actually ARE talking about the current characters mostly Wolverine. This whole conversation started because people did not want Wolverine's walk speed to be adjusted because the rules for start of game were different than what people thought it was. So that stuff is being sorted out now. I actually like the idea of giving characters with mediocre start of round game better tools... it pretty much indirectly nerfs Wolverine.

This is pretty much why I did Wolverine, Phoenix and Wright first. 3 characters who basically run on some system mechanics so you need to iron out these characters before moving on to the rest.

 

["God's Beard!"]

With all the changes that are coming, I'm gonna make sure Thor is the best character in the game. And they'll sound like reasonable changes, too.

 

[Karsticles]

Agreed. I think the distance after teching should remain the way it is.

If I run up and do s.H on you, you get to push block me. That's because my approach failed - I didn't open you up. Throws should have some downside to you failing as well, and creating a bit of space is what makes sense. Wolverine shouldn't get to go from throw to a free c.L.

I know that but it does trade in some cases. If he's slightly further than hump range the Spire does work. And I have played Ghost Rider quite a lot, the back dash + HS is pretty good for creating space. Yeah he gets owned at start of the round but really.. the character is garbage anyway. Even if he got space he still gets rushed down and zoned out. So what I see is a fundamental problem with the character not just the opening gambit. If he had great zoning/keep away, then his opening gambit problems wouldn't be that big of a deal because once he's set he's set.

Here are my suggested Ghost Rider changes so far, just so you can see how I have been thinking (let's keep discussion on this minimal):
Ghost Rider:
*Spirit of Vengeance now has hyper armor on frame 0.
*Spirit of Vengeance (H follow-up) now recovers faster, allowing for a follow-up combo.
*Chain-based normals now deal 15% chip damage.
*Heartless Spire vertical hitbox increased; jump-cancelable.
*Judgment Strike now reaches full-screen.
*Chain of Rebuttal vertical hitbox extended downward.
*Forward dash distance increased by 50%; total active frames unchanged.
*Hellfire (all versions) are now +10 on block; startup reduced to 10 frames for all versions.
*Chain of Punishment and Hell's Embrace hitboxes widened.
*c.M startup reduced to 9 frames; hitbox increased slightly and travels slightly farther.
*Heartless Spire assist startup changed to 34 frames; upper body invincible.

Assists: Judgment Strike, Chain of Rebuttal, Heartless Spire

I know that but I was sort of making this comparison to Ghost Rider. Unlike Ghost Rider, when Chris is established he is hard to get in on which sort of mitigates his opening gambit problem.

I almost never have people get in on my Ghost Rider, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Unfortunately, Plasma Beam is a requirement for him in his current state.

I didn't say anything was wrong with it but rather if you want to buff his opening gambit game then you start with the st.H. Like if it had armor that would make him a really strong start of the game character. All of these changes are just brain storm suggestions, they aren't completely serious stuff.

K.

Well Viper players sometimes EX Seismo at start of round and that gives her a very clear advantage at start. Sometimes it might be worthwhile spending that bar.

I don't disagree, I just don't think that kind of option fixes the character, especially when Hsien-ko's armor is defensive in nature (you can just throw her).

I don't know shit about Hsien Ko other than she's a shit character. So someone who knows the character can give better suggestions. Besides just like Ghost Rider and Nemesis, opening gambit is just one of her many problems so it boils down to fundamental flaw.

K.

If you change the 3rd one with throw invincibility after a throw tech then I say this is sufficient. The main reason why the distance thing was suggested because people do not want throw tech ad infinitum ever again.

I also don't want Wolverine getting a free c.L after a throw attempt - see above. Failed approaches deserve resets. That's what keeps the neutral balanced.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I don't know about the evidence assist. I think it's too weird to program, and it's hard to tell what evidence you've gotten with it.

What does Thor do at the start of the round?

I just mean for people chasing him they can't mash throws because command grab H beats it. That's all I meant, he doesn't need to "escape" the mixup because he can beat throw option selects.

Now if they walk out of his range, it's all sad times.

 

[Karsticles]

I have no qualms with him having an instant overhead, I just remember seeing him instant overhead Rocket Raccoon and having a 'wtf' moment. I don't think any of the other characters with instant overheads can do that, but I might be wrong.

And I'm kinda trying to bring the conversation back to the four proposed characters rather than what is currently being discussed. lol

Firebrand in Luminous Body can instant overhead everyone AFAIK.

I am pretty sure Shuma's instant overhead works on every character. Storm too.

We actually ARE talking about the current characters mostly Wolverine. This whole conversation started because people did not want Wolverine's walk speed to be adjusted because the rules for start of game were different than what people thought it was. So that stuff is sorted out now. I actually like the idea of giving characters with mediocre start of round game better tools... it pretty much indirectly nerfs Wolverine.

This is pretty much why I did Wolverine, Phoenix and Wright first. 3 characters who basically run on some system mechanics so you need to iron out these characters before moving on to the rest.

It is? What was it sorted out to? GB offered to add air dashes with double taps, and that's the last point I heard about the discussion. I pointed out your contradictory policies with start of the round options, and once again you skipped over the point. Maybe you shouldn't post from your phone if you can't address important points...

Shuma-Gorath's instant overhead only works on standing characters universally.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71966841]With all the changes that are coming, I'm gonna make sure Thor is the best character in the game. And they'll sound like reasonable changes, too.[/QUOTE]
Sure.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71967291]I just mean for people chasing him they can't mash throws because command grab H beats it. That's all I meant, he doesn't need to "escape" the mixup because he can beat throw option selects.

Now if they walk out of his range, it's all sad times.[/QUOTE]
Haha, good luck inputting that throw input on frame 1 consistently. I bet that if we did a FT50 you wouldn't land it on me once.

 

[Dahbomb]

I would just like to add that I already had a suggestion to make a system change to make chip damage on normals be 15-20%. People shot it down but now that Ghost Rider is up, we have to make an exception for him because normal chip is still 30%. The reason I made that suggestion to begin with is because of Ghost Rider and Sentinel (maybe a couple of other characters too). If you can make chip damage adjustment on a character by character basis then this will work, otherwise I am not too sure on if this would even be feasible.

And again, those are more than 10 changes for the character.

It is? What was it sorted out to? GB offered to add air dashes with double taps, and that's the last point I heard about the discussion. I pointed out your contradictory policies with start of the round options, and once again you skipped over the point. Maybe you shouldn't post from your phone if you can't address important points...

I edited the post, I said this is "being" sorted out.

I also don't want Wolverine getting a free c.L after a throw attempt - see above. Failed approaches deserve resets. That's what keeps the neutral balanced.

Characters getting a cr.L after a throw is an important part of the whole post throw tech game. This doesn't just apply to Wolverine. We have already had this discussion more than once. This is why I suggested to nerf his walk speed, that way he won't be in hump range if you don't want him to.

And in my suggestion with the no assist after throw... if Wolverine got a cr.L after a throw tech you can just push block it and he would have to get back in with a Berserker Slash (also wasting meter or XF to keep himself safe). Now with the current change he can do cr.L PLUS assist which is Tatsu so even if you push blocked him, you get to block Tatsu from the option select and then eat more pressure.

 

[Karsticles]

I would just like to add that I already had a suggestion to make a system change to make chip damage on normals be 15-20%. People shot it down but now that Ghost Rider is up, we have to make an exception for him because normal chip is still 30%. The reason I made that suggestion to begin with is because of Ghost Rider and Sentinel (maybe a couple of other characters too). If you can make chip damage adjustment on a character by character basis then this will work, otherwise I am not too sure on if this would even be feasible.

And again, those are more than 10 changes for the character.

It's a rough draft list of changes that I thought up for people to discuss. It doesn't need to be less than 10 when I post the draft, because the point is to garner discussion. I expect that some things will get discarded.

I plan on having chip damage be 15% on certain normals for Ghost Rider, Sentinel, and Frank West.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Haha, good luck inputting that throw input on frame 1 consistently. I bet that if we did a FT50 you wouldn't land it on me once.

Well, it only needs to be frame 1 half the time because mashing leaves 1 frame gaps

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71968341]Well, it only needs to be frame 1 half the time because mashing leaves 1 frame gaps [/QUOTE]
I would just instant overhead j.L you with Firebrand over and over thanks to Thor's big fat body. FREE.

 

[Frantic]

I am pretty sure Shuma's instant overhead works on every character. Storm too.

We actually ARE talking about the current characters mostly Wolverine. This whole conversation started because people did not want Wolverine's walk speed to be adjusted because the rules for start of game were different than what people thought it was. So that stuff is sorted out now. I actually like the idea of giving characters with mediocre start of round game better tools... it pretty much indirectly nerfs Wolverine.

This is pretty much why I did Wolverine, Phoenix and Wright first. 3 characters who basically run on some system mechanics so you need to iron out these characters before moving on to the rest.

My eyes have just sort of glazed over reading everything so I've only taken in maybe half of what's been said. My bad.

Honestly, removing df.H OS already greatly gimps Wolverine's start of the round options imo. Walk speed nerf might be a bit too overboard. Honestly, I'd just give Dormammu a cancelable ground dash so he can plink dash throw OS!

Edit: I also say honestly a lot.

 

[Dahbomb]

If you give Dorm a ground dash then you have to give Thor one too.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I think all command grabs should have unthrowable startup.

I would just instant overhead j.L you with Firebrand over and over thanks to Thor's big fat body. FREE.

mash tiger knee command grab

If you give Dorm a ground dash then you have to give Thor one too.

Nah. ARMORED RUN

 

[Karsticles]

If you give Dorm a ground dash then you have to give Thor one too.

???

 

[Dahbomb]

I think all command grabs should have unthrowable startup.

I think this should be in the system changes for sure.

 

[Frantic]

If you give Dorm a ground dash then you have to give Thor one too.

Thor's dash is hilarious. It's like he's puttering along.

But I'd definitely increase the dash distance for Thor.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Thor's dash is hilarious. It's like he's puttering along.

But I'd definitely increase the dash distance for Thor.

A run like Zero with 15 frame startup and armor from frame 10.

 

[Dahbomb]

I read those Ghost Rider changes and while they are marked improvement on the character there are still some issues.

After a raw launch a lot of the time you can't get anything more than a TAC off of it. I think that's just silly and needs rectifying. Sometimes you might not even get a TAC off it. FGTV recommended giving him a double jump so that he can at least get a magic series going after a launch. They even tested this in H&H and really, it didn't really impact the character much at all other than making his j.S less predictable.

I also think one of his straight forward chains should be available in the air. Give him air OK Chain of Rebuttal solves so many issues.

And I am not so sure about jump cancelable Heartless Spire... what's the basis for this? Why not just make it special cancelable?

You removed Yoga Flame as an assist... I liked that assist, I used it on my team!

 

["God's Beard!"]

I think you should be able to mash Ghost Rider's jS to pop your opponents into the air like Mitsuru in P4A.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

If I run up and do s.H on you, you get to push block me. That's because my approach failed - I didn't open you up. Throws should have some downside to you failing as well, and creating a bit of space is what makes sense. Wolverine shouldn't get to go from throw to a free c.L.

I think staying close is an important part of the game. Plus as long as there's the throw invincibility after teching then you can just block now anyway. Staying close can be an advantage for many characters. Say Wolvie did go for a cr.L, but I was holding up and just footdived the hell out of him.

Also with throw invincibility I think assists right after teching won't be as bad. It will allow many more opportunities for happy birthdays if you aren't careful.

I'm not quite sure where I stand on assists after teching. If they can't be called after teching, how long is it for? 30 frames? I'm sure it's been answered several times but this thread is moving quite fast now.

 

[Karsticles]

Throw Changes:
*Throw tech window increased by 3 frames (from 7 to 10).
*You cannot be grabbed during tech recovery.
*Ground throw techs put one character-length distance between the two characters.
*Throws can only be initiated with f.H and b.H.
*All command throws are now throw-invincible through their startup and active frames.

I read those Ghost Rider changes and while they are marked improvement on the character there are still some issues.

After a raw launch a lot of the time you can't get anything more than a TAC off of it. I think that's just silly and needs rectifying. Sometimes you might not even get a TAC off it. FGTV recommended giving him a double jump so that he can at least get a magic series going after a launch. They even tested this in H&H and really, it didn't really impact the character much at all other than making his j.S less predictable.

Is this such a problem when Heartless Spire is now jump-cancelable with an improved hitbox? s.S probably won't be his anti-air of choice any more.

I also think one of his straight forward chains should be available in the air. Give him air OK Chain of Rebuttal solves so many issues.

I've actually thought about making all of of his chains air OK.

And I am not so sure about jump cancelable Heartless Spire... what's the basis for this? Why not just make it special cancelable?

Jump cancelable lets him combo off of throws Heartless Spire hits while opening up new mobility options for him. Special-cancelable would make his anti-rushdown power too strong. Like I said, I almost never have people get in on my Ghost Rider as it is. I don't think we should make it even more difficult. That's not what his problem is.

You removed Yoga Flame as an assist... I liked that assist, I used it on my team!

Heartless Spire is better in every way, yes?

I think staying close is an important part of the game. Plus as long as there's the throw invincibility after teching then you can just block now anyway. Staying close can be an advantage for many characters. Say Wolvie did go for a cr.L, but I was holding up and just footdived the hell out of him.

Also with throw invincibility I think assists right after teching won't be as bad. It will allow many more opportunities for happy birthdays if you aren't careful.

I'm not quite sure where I stand on assists after teching. If they can't be called after teching, how long is it for? 30 frames? I'm sure it's been answered several times but this thread is moving quite fast now.

Why should I need to block after teching the throw? Why does my opponent get free offense? That's the question.

Wolverine c.L is 3 frames. It beats jumps because of pre-jump frames.

Dahbomb never said specifically how many frames assists would be locked out for, but I don't see the problem. Calling an assist before the throw is what makes pressure, not afterward. Post-throw assists take 30 frames to show up on the screen, minimum. I don't see how that's a problem unless Wolverine gets that free c.L after a throw, which is the real problem, not the assist.

 

[Dahbomb]

It would probably be like like 15 frames. Just enough so you can't option select it and give enough time for the other person to push block the opponent without getting locked down.

Heartless Spire is better in every way, yes?

Well now it is as it has upper body invincibility so it's basically a Haggar Lariat. But for combo purposes HS had very low hit stun off of OTGs. Plus the Hellfire had some lock down capability too.

Is this such a problem when Heartless Spire is now jump-cancelable with an improved hitbox? s.S probably won't be his anti-air of choice any more.

Heartless Spire does not protect against teleporters, st.S does. I love catching Dante teleport cross ups with it but I hate that I get nothing off of it. Plus st.S has just way more range than Heartless Spire so in some cases it would be better than Spire.

I've actually thought about making all of of his chains air OK.

Nah just make Chain of Rebuttal air OK. He only needs a forward one that wall bounces so he gets something out of the air to air exchanges.

Wolverine c.L is 3 frames. It beats jumps because of pre-jump frames.

It's 4 frames. Ammy has a 3 frame jab.

Why should I need to block after teching the throw? Why does my opponent get free offense? That's the question.

That just depends on the characters though. If you were playing Ammy then he has to respect your defense. If you were against Dante then it wouldn't even a be a problem, no way is he sticking out a cr.L after a throw.

Even if you set the characters at 2 length, you will still have to block. Only instead of Wolverine cr.L you will be blocking st.H of Vergil. The core issue isn't that you don't want to block after a throw tech (that will happen no matter what you do) but you don't want to block Wolverine's cr.L. At one character length as you suggested, I am 90% sure I can squeeze in Iron Man's cr.L which is a 5 framer.

 

["God's Beard!"]

We're trying to stay away from giving new moves to characters. Otherwise I would add this to Nemesis, who actually needs it.

Nemesis actually has a plinkdash, though.

 

[Frantic]

It's 4 frames. Ammy has a 3 frame jab.

You're both wrong. Wolverine's cr.L is 6 frame startup and his s.L is 4 frames. You can upback start of the round vs it.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Spencer's plink dash is so good. Don't remember who did it but I saw it cover the distance after a blocked Chaotic flame.

 

[Dahbomb]

You're both wrong. Wolverine's cr.L is 6 frame startup and his s.L is 4 frames. You can upback start of the round vs it.

God damn it I always get the two mixed up.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Yeah, Spencer's one of the fastest dashes in the game.

 

[SolarPowered]

What characters are we supposed to be talking about again? Everyone seems to be talking about everyone.

 

[Dahbomb]

What characters are we supposed to be talking about again? Everyone seems to be talking about everyone.

Wolverine, Phoenix Wright, Phoenix and She Hulk.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Throw Changes:


Why should I need to block after teching the throw? Why does my opponent get free offense? That's the question.

Wolverine c.L is 3 frames. It beats jumps because of pre-jump frames.

Dahbomb never said specifically how many frames assists would be locked out for, but I don't see the problem. Calling an assist before the throw is what makes pressure, not afterward. Post-throw assists take 30 frames to show up on the screen, minimum. I don't see how that's a problem unless Wolverine gets that free c.L after a throw, which is the real problem, not the assist.

Nah, I've tested it a lot. You can definitely just jump. I kinda agree that it's free offense because throw techs don't work like this in any other game. But to be fair it does work both ways. There's been many times I've teched Spencer's throw as Chris and then I beat him with a cr.M

 

[Azure J]

Spencer's plink dash is so good. Don't remember who did it but I saw it cover the distance after a blocked Chaotic flame.

I honestly think his plink dash as an approach is far scarier than his zipline approaches.

@Karst: Have we gotten all of our current thoughts down onto a master list/Google Doc yet? It's starting to get a bit cluttered.

 

[Karsticles]

Heartless Spire does not protect against teleporters, st.S does. I love catching Dante teleport cross ups with it but I hate that I get nothing off of it. Plus st.S has just way more range than Heartless Spire so in some cases it would be better than Spire.

s.S hits behind?

Even if you set the characters at 2 length, you will still have to block. Only instead of Wolverine cr.L you will be blocking st.H of Vergil. The core issue isn't that you don't want to block after a throw tech (that will happen no matter what you do) but you don't want to block Wolverine's cr.L. At one character length as you suggested, I am 90% sure I can squeeze in Iron Man's cr.L which is a 5 framer.

God damn it, we talked about this. s.H isn't a problem because it has a huge startup. I will tridash and punish the whiff or superjump away. I can't do that with Wolverine c.L.

5 frames can also be jumped over. It just needs to get rid of the fast s.L/c.L follow-ups.

You're both wrong. Wolverine's cr.L is 6 frame startup and his s.L is 4 frames. You can upback start of the round vs it.

Guide says 3, are you sure?

 

[Dahbomb]

s.S hits behind?

Not really but since it's just a flat button if they cross you up he still auto corrects and launches the correct way. Plus the height of it means you cover something like Vergil's H Teleport as well as Dante's teleport. Both better than trying to Spire the teleports. Doom players do this with the launcher as well but only against Vergil.

I thought God's Beard was the keeper of Frame Data? Settle this issue now!!!

On the Vanilla guide it says cr.L is 6 frames and st.L is 4 frames. In Berserker Charge they get sped up 1 frame faster.

 

[Frantic]

Guide says 3, are you sure?

My guide says 6/5 startup, with 5 being when in Berserker charge. Are you looking at the active frames? That's the only thing with 3 frames for cr.L.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

s.S hits behind?


God damn it, we talked about this. s.H isn't a problem because it has a huge startup. I will tridash and punish the whiff or superjump away. I can't do that with Wolverine c.L.

5 frames can also be jumped over. It just needs to get rid of the fast s.L/c.L follow-ups.


Guide says 3, are you sure?

Perhaps the guide is wrong. Because I regularly hold up after teching Wolverine. It's just that if you even for a split second thought about doing something else besides holding up then you're getting caught.