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[Ghazi]

What terms do you want cleared up?

Well, just from today I've been looking Guard Break and Instant Overheads (I don't even know what a normal overhead is aside from what I'm assuming about it from the obviousness of it's name)

The reason I was asking was because I really didn't want to bother you guys about explaining things, hoped to have just had somewhere where I can read up on everything/a lot of terms and just ask any outstanding question or two from that.


And I see new terms frequently that I try to read up on, most of which appears to be based on some core knowledge or education on other basic terms that I don't fully understand either (for example, I don't know what's classified as a jab, what I'm assuming is it's amy crouching or standing normal) It's just a lot to take in, for me.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I'm against increasing the number of changes. I don't think it's realistic to request a character rework. Even 10 I think is too much. That should be the maximum, and most should be 3-5 changes. Focus on the big picture so the real needs get seen.

I'm still against the 20% damage nerf, but I've been overridden.

 

[SolarPowered]

+ Increased walk speed
+ Increased dash speed
+ Increased momentum out of all dashes
+ c.H OTGs and Jump Cancellable
+ Bombs removed from Anki Hou inputs and remapped to QCF+S
+ Anki Hou items follow a set logic to determine stun items (2 normal, 1 warning, next item stuns)
+ Senpu Bu are all cancellable with S input
- Rinmukon mode active time decreased on point version

I'm wondering if I forgot something now. :lol

You'll see soon enough.

 

[Poltergust]

I don't any drastic changes are really needed. Just making the bad percent change go down and having meat buns only appear when damaged would go a long way.

Even the idea FSlink said of having a preset load out with a low chance of an item turning into a bad evidence would be fine. This doesn't contradict the mechanic created for him and he still has the idea of searching for clues and it's not always the same.

The worst would be if Wright never needed to be in Investigation or Trial mode. If he collected stuff during an assist or could get a full optimal set on the first try everytime, why bother even attempting to fight during Investigation or Trial mode. It would eliminate a large portion of his attacks. Getting three evidence and switching modes only takes like two Marvel seconds. TB mode should be the goal, but he should still be usable in his other modes. Things shouldn't flow perfectly 100% of the time. Every match should be different. He just doesn't need to be beyond crippled if things don't go his way. Evidence collecting should be his biggest hurdle not landing Objection. You can land Objection off any hit confirm.

I don't like FSLink's idea because you would be forced to collect 11 pieces of evidence to get the Cell Phone. That's arguably worse than what Wright has right now since you would rarely be collecting even that much.

Also, you and FSLink need to understand this: Wright will continue to be low-tier if he has to spend any significant amount of time in Investigation Mode. Most of the buffs we've given him are for Trial Mode, but Wright won't be able to get to use those buffs if he always dies in Investigation Mode. The point of having good evidence only is so he could get out of it as fast as he can, because Investigation Mode is awful. No amount of buffs is ever gonna make Investigation Mode "usable", so the goal is to minimize Investigation Mode time as much as possible.

I also don't understand what would be so different about Trial Mode if you only collect good evidence. You still need to land a hit with Wright's bad offensive game, or tag out and DHC/THC into him. The buffs Wright gets in Trial Mode would actually incentivize players to use Trial Mode more.

I just don't see the point in arbitrarily limiting Wright like this. Would he be broken with no bad evidence? I highly doubt it. Even with these proposed buffs I can't see him rising past high-mid tier at the most. His character design doesn't allow for it, really.

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

It does kinda seem silly to limit the number of changes per character. If there need to be changes, change them. It's not like She Hulk is now Zero tier cause she has more than ten changes.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Well, just from today I've been looking Guard Break and Instant Overhead's (I don't even know what a normal overhead is aside from what I'm assuming about the obviousness of it's name)

The reason I was asking was really because I didn't want to bother you guys about explaining things, hoped to have just had somewhere where I can read up on everything/a lot of terms.

That first link I posted will give you damn near everything you need.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71989141]I'm against increasing the number of changes. I don't think it's realistic to request a character rework. Even 10 I think is too much. That should be the maximum, and most should be 3-5 changes. Focus on the big picture so the real needs get seen.

I'm still against the 20% damage nerf, but I've been overridden.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I'm against it too, but it is what it is.

 

[Marz]

Magneto and Dormammu are almost perfect the way they are. Both are powerful without being over powerful.

Only thing Magneto could probably need is to decrease his meter gain.

 

[Dahbomb]

Well, just from today I've been looking Guard Break and Instant Overheads (I don't even know what a normal overhead is aside from what I'm assuming about it from the obviousness of it's name)

The reason I was asking was because I really didn't want to bother you guys about explaining things, hoped to have just had somewhere where I can read up on everything/a lot of terms and just ask any outstanding question or two from that.


And I see new terms frequently that I try to read up on, most of which appears to be based on some core knowledge or education on other basic terms that I don't fully understand either (for example, I don't know what's classified as a jab, what I'm assuming is it's amy crouching or standing normal) It's just a lot to take in, for me.

Instant overhead is just that. It's an overhead that is instant. Instant means that a normal human being cannot react to it and thus leads into a 50/50. The main example being used around here is Wolverine's j.L which because it's so fact you cannot react to it. Most of the time he needs assist to capitalize off of it though.

Guard break is when even if you block you get taken out of block stun due to some exploit in the game engine. The most obvious guard break in this game is after a push block someone grabs you or command grabs you. So when you push block it becomes an unavoidable situation. There is another type of guard break in this game where when you are blocking an assist there's a 1F window where if you grab them while the assist is just hitting them it turns into a guard break... ie. they get grabbed while in block stun which shouldn't happen. Guard breaks are also possible with anti air grab hypers like She Hulk, Spider Man and Frank West where they can set you up on incoming and if you push block any attack it's a free hyper grab for them. Note that there's a way to set these up where even if you push block you can get grabbed and that is by DHCing into them.

It does kinda seem silly to limit the number of changes per character. If there need to be changes, change them. It's not like She Hulk is now Zero tier cause she has more than ten changes.

Because if there is no limit then people will try to get away with changing stuff that doesn't really need changing. When there's no limit people put less thought behind their suggestions and just post it straight up. I think if you have a hard time justifying a change or don't have a solid reason behind making it, it should not be brought up.

 

[Poltergust]

Magneto and Dormammu are almost perfect the way they are. Both are powerful without being over powerful.

Only thing Magneto could probably need is to decrease his meter gain.

So, an overall damage reduction nerf? I think Dormammu should also have a nerf like that.

 

[SolarKnight]

+ Increased walk speed
+ Increased dash speed
+ Increased momentum out of all dashes
+ c.H OTGs and Jump Cancellable
+ Bombs removed from Anki Hou inputs and remapped to QCF+S
+ Anki Hou items follow a set logic to determine stun items (2 normal, 1 warning, next item stuns)
+ Senpu Bu are all cancellable with S input
- Rinmukon mode active time decreased on point version

I'm wondering if I forgot something now. :lol

That's a good start but I think she'd need something more but not sure what.

Btw, when is the Raccoon discussion happening? I want to participate on that but will be out again for a week >.>

 

[Dahbomb]

I want to participate on that but will be out again for a week >.>

Anyone can PM me changes they would like to see so when that character comes and you aren't there, your voice will still be heard.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

I don't like FSLink's idea because you would be forced to collect 11 pieces of evidence to get the Cell Phone. That's arguably worse than what Wright has right now since you would rarely be collecting even that much.

Also, you and FSLink need to understand this: Wright will continue to be low-tier if he has to spend any significant amount of time in Investigation Mode. Most of the buffs we've given him are for Trial Mode, but Wright won't be able to get to use those buffs if he always dies in Investigation Mode. The point of having good evidence only is so he could get out of it as fast as he can, because Investigation Mode is awful. No amount of buffs is ever gonna make Investigation Mode "usable", so the goal is to minimize Investigation Mode time as much as possible.

I also don't understand what would be so different about Trial Mode if you only collect good evidence. You still need to land a hit with Wright's bad offensive game, or tag out and DHC/THC into him. The buffs Wright gets in Trial Mode would actually incentivize players to use Trial Mode more.

I just don't see the point in arbitrarily limiting Wright like this. Would he be broken with no bad evidence? I highly doubt it. Even with these proposed buffs I can't see him rising past high-mid tier at the most. His character design doesn't allow for it, really.

I probably missed your post so how would you make investigation mode better?

I think making his normals better would go a long way.

He should be able to call Maya without having to stop. She should come out faster and get out faster.

Startup and recovery on throwing out bad evidence should be better.

Bad evidence causes hard knockdown. Or you could just make all evidence cause hard knockdown in case you're getting pressured and you feel it's worth it to throw one away.

 

[Dahbomb]

He wants bad evidence removed completely. His thinking is the same as mine, bad evidence just makes a bad character worse and Investigation mode sucks so the only way you can make the character better is minimizing the time spent in that mode.

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

Also, you and FSLink need to understand this: Wright will continue to be low-tier if he has to spend any significant amount of time in Investigation Mode.

I understand this. He should be low tier in Investigation mode. Wright's never gonna be high tier, his character is designed that way. He should be low tier during normal play and high tier during TB. Risk vs reward. Some characters have to be low tier or else the whole tier system is out of place. The degree of how close or how far he is in that tier compared to the rest of the cast needs to change.

I also don't understand what would be so different about Trial Mode if you only collect good evidence. You still need to land a hit with Wright's bad offensive game, or tag out and DHC/THC into him. The buffs Wright gets in Trial Mode would actually incentivize players to use Trial Mode more.

Your right about Trial mode needing to be more optimized and used. I don't use trial mode to it's fullest at all I admit that. This would change with the buffs and tremendously help him.

I just don't see the point in arbitrarily limiting Wright like this. Would he be broken with no bad evidence? I highly doubt it. Even with these proposed buffs I can't see him rising past high-mid tier at the most. His character design doesn't allow for it, really.

I'm not trying to limit Wright with bad evidence, I just think it's part of his gimmick and it should stay in some form, just not a prevailing one. As long as bad evidence is neutered and he has greater buffs all around I don't find the occasional bad piece to bad to deal with.

 

[Poltergust]

I probably missed your post so how would you make investigation mode better?

I think making his normals better would go a long way.

He should be able to call Maya without having to stop. She should come out faster and get out faster.

Startup and recovery on throwing out bad evidence should be better.

Bad evidence causes hard knockdown. Or you could just make all evidence cause hard knockdown in case you're getting pressured and you feel it's worth it to throw one away.

Those buffs are fine and all, but unless you can drastically improve his offensive capabilities in the mode, it'll always be a handicap to him. However, such a thing would be impossible without giving him access to more moves during that mode. The only thing we can do is make evidence collecting easier and buff his defensive moves so he can get out of it quickly.

 

[SolarPowered]

I understand this. He should be low tier in Investigation mode. Wright's never gonna be high tier, his character is designed that way. He should be low tier during normal play and high tier during TB. Risk vs reward. Some characters have to be low tier or else the whole tier system is out of place. The degree of how close or how far he is in that tier compared to the rest of the cast needs to change.

wat no

Just make him gud.

 

[Marz]

So, an overall damage reduction nerf? I think Dormammu should also have a nerf like that.

Maybe?

Isn't it hard to open people up with Dorm anyways?

 

[Dahbomb]

Characters should not be designed to be low tier. Capcom didn't design PW to be intentionally low tier, they thought TA mode was too good in fact and there was a lot of debate on the character. He ended up being low tier but he could've easily been top tier or at least as good as Frank West and Phoenix. Frank West is a good place in terms of where a gimmick character should be. Right now PW Investigation mode is not as good as LVL1 Frank, it's harder to get him to TA than it is to get 4 levels, he has mediocre assists unlike Frank who has one great one and TA mode is not permanent where as Frank's levels up are permanent. TA mode PW is better than leveled up Frank but not with all the handicaps it comes with.

 

[RocBase]

I'm an extremely casual Wright player (or player in general) so I won't even pretend to know a tenth of the knowledge you folks have, but even as a casual I do want to chime in on the discussion of Wright as I have something to say:

For one all the changes that bothered me personally were noted – the only one which wasn't mentioned was reducing the startup of Objection, but I'm not sure if that's really necessary anymore with the possible assist changes. I'm still putting that onto the table for thought.

Nah I support bad evidence too but what if we make it predetermined like Teddie's items in Persona 4 Arena? Like....Watch -> Food (10% chance of being bad evidence) -> Photo -> Food (10% or whatever chance of being bad evidence)....last ones being Folder, Vase, Knife, Cell phone. Eliminates randomness of WHEN you get a good piece or not, but you have to do more evidence pulls to get certain ones.

My problem with good evidence being too easy to get is because you'd potentially get the better items easier. I don't currently like the fact that it's so rare now that you're happy with whatever you get, but I don't think just making everything 100% good is the way to go. This would add some depth since you'd have to determine if you just want to stick with Watch, Photo, Folder in Trial and Turnabout or do you want to go for Cell Phone and Knife?

Polt made a great post which I agreed with regarding this, so I'll quote it here and followup from it:

Gladly.

Let me say this straight out: bad evidence is an AWFUL mechanic that only serves to make an already bad character even worse. Why is that? Because Investigation Mode sucks. No amount of buffs we give Wright will make him a better character if he still has to spend a significant amount of time in that mode. The less time Wright has to spend in Investigation Mode, the more able he'll be to compete against the rest of the cast.

But let's tackle this from another perspective. With bad evidence gone, Wright would still have 6 random pieces of evidence (+meat) to pick up. With the pool of total evidence being smaller, Wright is more able to pick up the piece(s) of evidence that would be good for any particular match-ups he's in. For example, Trish is usually an annoying character to fight, but with the Cell Phone the match goes into Wright's favor. Another example is about how good a combination the Folder+Knife is against straightforward rushdown characters. Wright is more likely to get the evidence he needs for these match-ups instead of flailing around to get ANY good piece of evidence. It introduces a risk/reward factor for him since he could deal with just having unoptimal evidence, or attempt to go for the ideal evidence even if he has to throw away good evidence. I think that would make Wright a more interesting and dynamic character.

Originally when Wright was announced this is what I thought would be doable with him as it gives a bit more depth to the whole mechanic. But currently, chucking out any evidence for the hope of getting a preferred one when there's the high chance of going through long strings of bad evidence is just not worth it.

Having said that, in combination with some of the other proposed buffs I wouldn't mind the bad evidence if the calls were predetermined as you brought up, although I wouldn't have meat after every item, maybe after the third and sixth item? My real issue with the mechanic is how you cannot currently fish out for your preferred projectile deck as the stacks are way too high and don't encourage it. I want to be able to consciously choose my own items instead of settling with any combination and hoping for the best against a particular character, kind of like Dorm's summoning thing.

 

[Ghazi]

That first link I posted will give you damn near everything you need.

Thank you, I'll start reading through both of them tonight when I get home!

Instant overhead is just that. It's an overhead that is instant. Instant means that a normal human being cannot react to it and thus leads into a 50/50. The main example being used around here is Wolverine's j.L which because it's so fast you cannot react to it. Most of the time he needs assist to capitalize off of it though.

I was thinking something along the lines of that when you guys began debating about the frame data for j. L since the game runs at 60fps there's be no human way to react in response to 4-6 of those frames. See, what I had looked up had me very confused about it. I don't know if it was a genuinely good explanation that I didn't understand or a bad one though.

Guard break is when even if you block you get taken out of block stun due to some exploit in the game engine. The most obvious guard break in this game is after a push block someone grabs you or command grabs you. So when you push block it becomes an unavoidable situation. There is another type of guard break in this game where when you are blocking an assist there's a 1F window where if you grab them while the assist is just hitting them it turns into a guard break... ie. they get grabbed while in block stun which shouldn't happen. Guard breaks are also possible with anti air grab hypers like She Hulk, Spider Man and Frank West where they can set you up on incoming and if you push block any attack it's a free hyper grab for them. Note that there's a way to set these up where even if you push block you can get grabbed and that is by DHCing into them..

I'm reading this understanding that block stun is the animation/frames of your character reacting to blocking, until you can control your character again. So what you say makes sense, sounds pretty lame to have that happen to you though since you'd have to recognize the setups for them and keep yourself from push blocking. I did not know about the hyper grabs either, since guard breaks were unintended do you think they'd be fixed in an update?

 

[Poltergust]

I understand this. He should be low tier in Investigation mode. Wright's never gonna be high tier, his character is designed that way. He should be low tier during normal play and high tier during TB. Risk vs reward. Some characters have to be low tier or else the whole tier system is out of place. The degree of how close or how far he is in that tier compared to the rest of the cast needs to change.

Actually, a fighting game does not necessarily have a low-tier. A balanced fighting game would minimize the amount of characters in low-tier.

I'm not trying to limit Wright with bad evidence, I just think it's part of his gimmick and it should stay in some form, just not a prevailing one. As long as bad evidence is neutered and he has greater buffs all around I don't find the occasional bad piece to bad to deal with.

I'm gonna need a better reason than "I think it's part of his gimmick and should stay" in order to convince me. Like I said, I see no point in arbitrarily making Wright more difficult to play effectively. Bad evidence forces you to spend more time in a mode that sucks. What's the justification for that?

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Those buffs are fine and all, but unless you can drastically improve his offensive capabilities in the mode, it'll always be a handicap to him. However, such a thing would be impossible without giving him access to more moves during that mode. The only thing we can do is make evidence collecting easier and buff his defensive moves so he can get out of it quickly.

I think he'd be ok with better normals, some better mobility and better specials. Just with the Maya buff I suggested he'd be able to combo off of his throws way easier. Right now I don't even think he can do it mid screen...at least not off of a forward throw, but I'm not sure. He'd also be able to setup his own unblockables. And with better normals it wouldn't be scary to actually attempt attacking.

I think there's definitely potential with what he has now. Just some slight/serious adjustments.

 

[Dahbomb]

If Capcom sees guard breaks as a pervasive problem then they will be fixed.

Oh and the whole "open up someone" to damage ratio does not hold up. It's tough to open up someone with Ghost Rider and he does shit damage. It's not even that hard to open up someone as Dorm, he has tri dash, j.S cross up, teleport mix ups and even an unblockable set up. The problem isn't about him opening up someone the problem is purely an effort vs reward thing. They can give him better confirms (like st.H always hitting after cr.L or cr.H) as long as it means he has to work a bit to get to 800k or so... right now is no effort at all even less than Wolverine.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Instant overhead is just that. It's an overhead that is instant. Instant means that a normal human being cannot react to it and thus leads into a 50/50. The main example being used around here is Wolverine's j.L which because it's so fact you cannot react to it. Most of the time he needs assist to capitalize off of it though.

Instant overhead is just a fighting game term that means an air normal that hits crouching opponents on the way up. Like rocket raccoon's jM or Wolvie's jL or Sagat's njMK.

 

[Ghazi]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71994876]Instant overhead is just a fighting game term that means an air normal that hits crouching opponents on the way up. Like rocket raccoon's jM or Wolvie's jL or Sagat's njMK.[/QUOTE]
So, theoretically, I could Beam Assist and jump and do j.L on a crouching opponent immediately, then dive kick, connect, and do my baby mode combo? The other explanation makes a bit more sense after this too.

 

[FSLink]

Keep in mind that my suggestions for a predetermined load out wasn't final or anything. 11 would be much for cellphone, but I still think something along those lines would be preferred (Cell phone later rather than earlier). Slasher is right, I really feel that in Investigation mode Wright SHOULD be useless and vulnerable, bad evidence is a way to make that happen. The only reason bad evidence is there is to make it difficult for him to get his preferred load out. I do think in most cases, luck tends not to be in our favor, so that's why I'm suggesting some sort of predetermined load out to lower the chances that Wright is a sitting duck. It'd still encourage you to use tech like THC, Maya DHC (after a kill), and go for more evidence grabs if better items are later. How is eliminating this sort of tech a good thing if you're guaranteed good evidence all the time?

Having said that, in combination with some of the other proposed buffs I wouldn't mind the bad evidence if the calls were predetermined as you brought up, although I wouldn't have meat after every item, maybe after the third and sixth item? My real issue with the mechanic is how you cannot currently fish out for your preferred projectile deck as the stacks are way too high and don't encourage it. I want to be able to consciously choose my own items instead of settling with any combination and hoping for the best against the particular character, kind of like Dorm's summoning thing.

I agree, right now it's too luck based and you're happy if you even get 3 good evidence. There's never a reason to throw a good evidence out at the moment. But if it's predetermined, at least you'd know that cell phone is x amount of evidence grabs a way. Do you go for it, risking Wright being vulnerable, or do you try to switch to Trial Mode, begin zoning with what you have or DHC out/raw tag/cross over counter out to get him ready for Turnabout?

Also again, good evidence being there 100% of the time eliminates any need to ever use his stun combos (in Investigation or Trial anyway), we should encourage more use of it, rather than eliminate the need for it altogether.

For one all the changes that bothered me personally were noted – the only one which wasn't mentioned was reducing the startup of Objection, but I'm not sure if that's really necessary anymore with the possible assist changes. I'm still putting that onto the table for thought.

I don't even think it's necessary at all because there's plenty of ways to combo into it, from a DHC, after a TAC, after his normal string (if you could land a hit with Wright with his crappy normals), after a grab with certain assists or in the corner....

I also gave an idea of letting Wright start in Trial mode if you choose too. With better buffs to his normals, theoretically he could play a bit more offensively, and go for a hard knockdown, then switch and go for evidence rather than having to play defensively at the start always.

 

["God's Beard!"]

So, theoretically, I could Beam Assist and jump and do j.L on a crouching opponent immediately, then dive kick, connect, and do my baby mode combo? The other explanation makes a bit more sense after this too.

yessir

 

[Dahbomb]

So, theoretically, I could Beam Assist and jump and do j.L on a crouching opponent immediately, then dive kick, connect, and do my baby mode combo? The other explanation makes a bit more sense after this too.

You can't dive kick after a j.L. You have to do like j.L j.S Drill Claw Dive Kick. Try this on Sentinel first then try it with an assist.

 

[Karsticles]

God damn it Karst STOPPED DOING THAT!!!! Now we have to start discussing Storm...

I'm hype to discuss my changes. :-D

Whirlwind still sucks and L version still doesn't go full screen. Needs start up reduced across the board, 25 frame start up on H version is shit. All versions should go full screen, difference is in damage, durability and start up.

My problem with this is that Whirlwind's durability does not matter. The projectile is not coded like a beam (neither is Gamma Wave). Once you perform the input, each whirl is simply created in sequence. Destroying the first few whirls doesn't prevent the rest from appearing. Whether Whirlwind has 1 durability or 5 durability, it's still going across the screen and hitting you if you try to counter it, since one of those whirls are going to appear on top of you.

I agree that the L and M versions are worthless, and I back reducing the frame startup by 5. But durability can't be the differentiator.

You can't reduce the start up of Typhoons that much because otherwise she would have infinites/loops with it as the advantage on hit/block on it is very good. She already had loops with it in XF. You have to reduce the start up and also reduce the recovery... but just enough so she can still pick up OTG after throws and combos. Sort of like how they changed Smart Bombs for Iron Man.

Good point. I'm okay with her having an XF loop with it, though. Sounds boss. I don't see why the recovery needs changing; I updated the startup to 42 frames (+40 on hit).

Lightning Storm should have soft knockdown property if cancelled before the final hit (like most hypers that are like it).

Added.

Please do not give her assist calls after super jump float. There's a reason why they removed that shit and it's because you can't build 5 bars while floating at the top of the screen and spamming Morrigan. I do not want that in the game please especially when you are going to have more tracking assists in the game.

She can't build 5 bars like that - trust me, I tried in Vanilla. She gets assaulted. Justin pops the tatsu assist once someone tries to approach her because he has to. Otherwise she gets crossed under or air thrown - it's a very unattractive situation.

On the topic of Lightning Sphere... just give it a charged and uncharged version (like Air Play). Uncharged version is the same as now only it has better recovery than what it does now. Charged version bigger hit box, more hit stun, more damage etc. H version tracks better.

That's an animation change, though.

I don't any drastic changes are really needed. Just making the bad percent change go down and having meat buns only appear when damaged would go a long way.

Even the idea FSlink said of having a preset load out with a low chance of an item turning into a bad evidence would be fine. This doesn't contradict the mechanic created for him and he still has the idea of searching for clues and it's not always the same.

The worst would be if Wright never needed to be in Investigation or Trial mode. If he collected stuff during an assist or could get a full optimal set on the first try everytime, why bother even attempting to fight during Investigation or Trial mode. It would eliminate a large portion of his attacks. Getting three evidence and switching modes only takes like two Marvel seconds. TB mode should be the goal, but he should still be usable in his other modes. Things shouldn't flow perfectly 100% of the time. Every match should be different. He just doesn't need to be beyond crippled if things don't go his way. Evidence collecting should be his biggest hurdle not landing Objection. You can land Objection off any hit confirm.

I want all of the Wright players to fight this out. No one else comments but them. I still maintain that bad randomness is character-ruining.

Why no Clothesline assist. I think it could be great if it had a hit or two of armor and she recovered and got the fuck out quickly. Would allow for some hard tag shenanigans. I do like the sound of a Shooting Star assist for some unblockables though.

My reasons for the three assist options:
*Lights Out - every character needs something long-range if possible. A go-to slap-on assist that can help any team.
*Torpedo - It's a low that OTGs. Very good, like Samurai Edge. This was ComboFiend's choice for her assist. I think we should keep a good set of OTG options in the game. I reduced its startup so it's more reliable for extensions.
*Shooting Star - I put this in and increased its knockback because I think Rapid Slash is an amazing assist concept, but I don't want Vergil to have a monopoly on it. Shooting Star would work a lot like Rapid Slash with how I designed it, and it also has interesting other team applications.

Clothesline was a close 4th, but I think that, in practice, the armor will get blown up. Evidence: no one uses Skrull's Orbital Grudge assist, and that has armor.

I'd like to be able to attack and block after Lighting Attack plz, not just fall to my fucking death. Soft knockdown on Lightning Storm so I can DHC into Hyper Sentinel Force.

This can't happen because it would let Storm go MODOK on people. Jump, air dash up, Lightning Attack x 3 far up, and then Float down while calling an assist.

Her super jump confirms are probably the weirdest super jump confirms in the game. I definitely want to improve those... and allow her to combo off a super jump Jam Session, which is impossible right now because of HSD.

Hmmm...I'll think on it, I don't know how to accomplish this.

There's no real need to increase the hitstun any more if you're going to reduce the recovery. It already has plenty of hitstun(you can combo off it air-to-air already) so adding more hitstun + reducing recovery would just be too much.

I want it to provide lockdown for her to get in from almost full screen.

Does Snapshot > Funny Face as a guard break actually work? I swear I can never get it to work.

I lost a top 8 match at locals on the timer because of it, so I will never forget.

So that people don't go over board with changes. I have like 20 changes I would like to make to Iron Man but we need to keep things consolidated when we are submitting this stuff. I also see that when you limit the changes like that you get more fruitful changes that people actually think about rather than putting in changes for the sake of changes.

Fuck it man, if Karst agrees we can up the limit to 15. This is a community thing so if people agree to keep things reasonable we can up the limit.

When you initially suggested the 10-change limit, I thought "damn Dahbomb, way to be a fun killer". But after thinking about it, I really agree with it. Your above post nails it - we need to make smart, concise choices, and this helps us narrow our focus. As long as that limitation is to different aspects of the character (i.e. 3 changes to j.H is one change), I think it's fine.

I think we could remove the armor on Somersault and it would be fine. She already has some nasty anti-air options, and Somersault has a great hitbox as it is.

And I forgot the biggest change! Berserker Rage (Swiss Cheese) advantage on block reduced to -3. Because it's fucking ridiculous that move is so positive on block!

Added.

I feel like ten changes is a bit too little for some characters, because even with ten positive changes, Hsien-Ko is still probably gonna be ass.

I got your Hsien-ko changes...ahhhh, must hold back...

So, an overall damage reduction nerf? I think Dormammu should also have a nerf like that.

Dormammu will be receiving a damage nerf, I guarantee it. No way am I nerfing Liberations unless you can give me a good explanation as to why that should be the case while explaining how we can make up for it.

Anyone can PM me changes they would like to see so when that character comes and you aren't there, your voice will still be heard.

Or just hold off on RR discussion until SolarKnight comes back. We have a ton to go through. It's not just about having your changes discussed, it's about defending them and providing an active voice as character discussions continue. We're lucky there are so many Wright players here.

I'm an extremely casual Wright player (or player in general) so I won't even pretend to know a tenth of the knowledge as you folks have, but even as a casual I do want to chime in on the discussion of Wright as I have something to say

Thanks for speaking up; players of all levels are welcome to contribute.

 

[Ghazi]

You can't dive kick after a j.L. You have to do like j.L j.S Drill Claw Dive Kick. Try this on Sentinel first then try it with an assist.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71996986]yessir[/QUOTE]
Ah, ok, I'll be sure to use try that out. Thanks!

 

[Frantic]

Hmmm...I'll think on it, I don't know how to accomplish this.

Well, if Peekaboo has a set amount of hitstun that decreases per use in a combo, that would be enough. As it is, the problem is that she needs Peekaboo to combo off super jump height, but HSD kicks in too severely off certain confirms and she can't combo off it. If Peekaboo gets a set hitstun even later in the combo, enough that she could connect a j.M - or better, j.H - into Dive Kick she could then combo into Hopscotch into her usual BnB finish.

That's how I'd change it, anyways.

 

[Dahbomb]

Karst the reason you may need to increase recovery on Typhoon is to avoid infinites/loops if you are improving start up. Or at least lower hit stun on long combos. Right now with improved start up and full vertical range it becomes much better that Purification because it can be used in the air and has better advantage on hit/block while having only 4 more frames of recovery and slightly longer start up. I say best thing to do for Typhoon is lower advantage on block and lowered hit stun for long combos.

I am still completely against Storm having access to assists at SJ height with Float. She already has enough going for her with all these buffs. Being able to Float, call assists, use a better Typhoon to restrict enemy movement just does not sit well with me.

Also you don't need an animation rework for Lightning Sphere because it's literally already an Air Play projectile just with way worse frame data. They can just use the charged version from Dante and change the color.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

I haven't played a fighting game since last weekend at Evo. I think I took a long enough break.

I'm about to play and I have a feeling I am gonna get worked. I'll probably be playing for 2 or 3 hours, so if anyone on xbl or psn wants to play then I'm down. I apologize in advance for the rust.....Marvel is not friendly to you when you take time off.

 

[Karsticles]

Karst the reason you may need to increase recovery on Typhoon is to avoid infinites/loops if you are improving start up. Or at least lower hit stun on long combos. Right now with improved start up and full vertical range it becomes much better that Purification because it can be used in the air and has better advantage on hit/block while having only 4 more frames of recovery and slightly longer start up. I say best thing to do for Typhoon is lower advantage on block and lowered hit stun for long combos.

I am still completely against Storm having access to assists at SJ height with Float. She already has enough going for her with all these buffs. Being able to Float, call assists, use a better Typhoon to restrict enemy movement just does not sit well with me.

Also you don't need an animation rework for Lightning Sphere because it's literally already an Air Play projectile just with way worse frame data. They can just use the charged version from Dante and change the color.

Changes implemented into my list.

I understand the concerns with Double Typhoon becoming better than Purification. I actually wanted it to be roughly on par, and this doesn't bother me. Dormammu is a lot more than just Purification. I changed the startup to 42 frames; the move is +40 on hit, so no worries about infinites. I am fine with Storm gaining a new relaunch loop - good for her.

Well, if Peekaboo has a set amount of hitstun that decreases per use in a combo, that would be enough. As it is, the problem is that she needs Peekaboo to combo off super jump height, but HSD kicks in too severely off certain confirms and she can't combo off it. If Peekaboo gets a set hitstun even later in the combo, enough that she could connect a j.M - or better, j.H - into Dive Kick she could then combo into Hopscotch into her usual BnB finish.

That's how I'd change it, anyways.

Either that or a change to the Dive Kick...or another suggestion I made might be enough...(trying not to list all my stuff!!!).

 

[Poltergust]

Keep in mind that my suggestions for a predetermined load out wasn't final or anything. 11 would be much for cellphone, but I still think something along those lines would be preferred (Cell phone later rather than earlier). Slasher is right, I really feel that in Investigation mode Wright SHOULD be useless and vulnerable, bad evidence is a way to make that happen. The only reason bad evidence is there is to make it difficult for him to get his preferred load out. I do think in most cases, luck tends not to be in our favor, so that's why I'm suggesting some sort of predetermined load out to lower the chances that Wright is a sitting duck. It'd still encourage you to use tech like THC, Maya DHC (after a kill), and go for more evidence grabs if better items are later. How is eliminating this sort of tech a good thing if you're guaranteed good evidence all the time?

I explained this with this post:

But let's tackle this from another perspective. With bad evidence gone, Wright would still have 6 random pieces of evidence (+meat) to pick up. With the pool of total evidence being smaller, Wright is more able to pick up the piece(s) of evidence that would be good for any particular match-ups he's in. For example, Trish is usually an annoying character to fight, but with the Cell Phone the match goes into Wright's favor. Another example is about how good a combination the Folder+Knife is against straightforward rushdown characters. Wright is more likely to get the evidence he needs for these match-ups instead of flailing around to get ANY good piece of evidence. It introduces a risk/reward factor for him since he could deal with just having unoptimal evidence, or attempt to go for the ideal evidence even if he has to throw away good evidence. I think that would make Wright a more interesting and dynamic character.

You could just take what you have, or attempt to optimize yourself with a better piece of evidence. A choice like this is virtually impossible in Wright's current form since it usually takes way too long to gather 3 good pieces of evidence as it is.

And we all know that Investigation Mode is useless and vulnerable, which is why we're trying to reduce its impact on a match by minimizing the time spent in it. Why would you want something to be intentionally bad?

I agree, right now it's too luck based and you're happy if you even get 3 good evidence. There's never a reason to throw a good evidence out at the moment. But if it's predetermined, at least you'd know that cell phone is x amount of evidence calls a way. Do you go for it, risking Wright being vulnerable, or do you try to switch to Trial Mode, begin zoning with what you have or DHC out/raw tag/cross over counter out to get him ready for Turnabout?

Like I said above, this kind of thing is still possible with no bad evidence.

Also again, good evidence being there 100% of the time eliminates any need to ever use his stun combos, we should encourage more use of it, rather than eliminate the need for it altogether.

Not really. You saw UglyWhen's match versus Yipes, right? He used plenty of stun combos starting from Investigation Mode. You can still use them if you know how. Wright's major stun combos are during Turnabout Mode, anyways.

 

[SolarKnight]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";71994876]Instant overhead is just a fighting game term that means an air normal that hits crouching opponents on the way up. Like !rocket raccoon's jM or Wolvie's jL or Sagat's njMK.[/QUOTE]

I'm guessing you meant jL because M's not even an overhead.

 

[Dahbomb]

Well Storm after the buffs will have usable Lightning Sphere (with charge versions), usable Whirlwinds, usable Fair winds and a usable Typhoon. Her neutral game wouldn't be just super jump float come down with j.S. Also FGTV recommended 5 frame start up reduction on her whirlwinds and that's fair to me as well.

One more thing I would add is that Storm has a glitch where her 3rd Lightning Attack does not connect in a combo sometimes for some reason. I would just like a mention on that because this was a bit frustrating when I was first learning the character. There is also a hit confirm problem with the character but I forgot what it is, one of her normals (I think one of the Ms) is a bit shorter than it should be.

 

[Karsticles]

Well Storm after the buffs will have usable Lightning Sphere (with charge versions), usable Whirlwinds, usable Fair winds and a usable Typhoon. Her neutral game wouldn't be just super jump float come down with j.S. Also FGTV recommended 5 frame start up reduction on her whirlwinds and that's fair to me as well.

One more thing I would add is that Storm has a glitch where her 3rd Lightning Attack does not connect in a combo sometimes for some reason. I would just like a mention on that because this was a bit frustrating when I was first learning the character. There is also a hit confirm problem with the character but I forgot what it is, one of her normals (I think one of the Ms) is a bit shorter than it should be.

Lightning Attack is a little difficult to link, but I got it down. I don't think it needs a change. I think we really just need to figure out what to do with Whirlwind L and M. Current change list for Storm:

Storm:
*Lightning Sphere hitbox increased, recovery reduced significantly, chargeable for a larger hitbox/hitstun, H version has slight tracking.
*Double Typhoon now reaches to superjump height.
*Double Typhoon startup reduced from 63 frames to 42 frames.
*Lightning Storm damage increased slightly; soft knockdown on all but the last hit.
*Flight startup reduced to 15 frames.
*Storm is now able to air dash twice after jumping, without Flight..
*Fair/Foul Wind active frames reduced to 15, total opposing character movement unchanged.
*Whirlwind startup time reduced by 5 (all versions).
*No longer mentioned T’Challa in her battle quotes.

Assists: Whirlwind H, Typhoon (Tracking), Lightning Sphere H.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I'm guessing you meant jL because M's not even an overhead.

O_O

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72001281]O_O[/QUOTE]
LOL.

Edit: Oh yeah, and check out the changes GFAQs posters want to make:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/637240-ultimate-marvel-vs-capcom-3/66774498

 

[FSLink]

I explained this with this post:



You could just take what you have, or attempt to optimize yourself with a better piece of evidence. A choice like this is virtually impossible in Wright's current form since it usually takes way too long to gather 3 good pieces of evidence as it is.

And we all know that Investigation Mode is useless and vulnerable, which is why we're trying to reduce its impact on a match by minimizing the time spent in it. Why would you want something to be intentionally bad?

Pretty much agree with Slasher here:

It's just something that I feel should be part of the character. I know Capcom won't get rid of something like that. A nice detail I like is when you present bad evidence in trial mode, Wright does his sad pitiful animation. I know people say that Wright doesn't have bad evidence in his games why does he here. He is still investigating, looking for clues. Finding three correct clues leads to a correct line of thinking so when he objects it has merit. Having incorrect info or evidence and objecting leads to a penalty. I can see what Capcom was trying to do and I think for the most part created a great representation of how Wright would behave in a fighting game. However, it's clear they where deeply worried on if he was balanced or not. Removing bad evidence completely would go against the mechanics they created for him.

He doesn't have bad evidence in his games, but it's clear that it was meant to mimic presenting evidence at the correct time...which is why Order in the Court eliminates all bad evidence. I really don't think Capcom would eliminate bad evidence, they intentionally put it there for a reason. We've discussed that Capcom has been wrong before, but I still don't think they'd eliminate it all together rather than buffing it.

We could just have it: First 3 evidence grabs, good evidence always, but not the better ones like cellphone, knife. If you toss them, the next time you pull for that slot is bad evidence, but bad evidence now causes hard knockdown and eats a beam/projectile like FoF. Another pull in that same slot will be the "better" evidence, and then it recycles from there. Food replaces bad evidence if he has significant amount of damage. I also find the idea that bad evidence causes hard knockdown, interesting...you could setup situations like tossing it->Maya super->DHC to someone who has a good OTG, and kind of get a ghetto DHC glitch off of it.

Like I said above, this kind of thing is still possible with no bad evidence.

Right, but most would try to just go for Turnabout right away. Bad evidence is meant to punish players who try to go for more evidence, the problem is that it's too frequent and that Turnabout is too weak for an end-goal (will be fixed now that c.H hits low). A predetermined evidence load out would still achieve this goal, and even eliminate luck in matchups (don't have to hope that you get knife or cellphone, you know when you'll get it). Plus, if you want a "better" character, aka Wright with cellphone, you have to spend more time in Investigation mode, meaning risking staying in a bad mode to be better in his good modes. This would be, I feel, a better way of approaching it, instead of just hoping he'll get what you want.

Not really. You saw UglyWhen's match versus Yipes, right? He used plenty of stun combos starting from Investigation Mode. You can still use them if you know how. Wright's major stun combos are during Turnabout Mode, anyways.

Still pretty rare without Spencer slant assist though, I'm not a fan of having it so restricted to one assist. Should be better off with a faster Maya to be able to do it solo.

 

[Frantic]

LOL.

Edit: Oh yeah, and check out the changes GFAQs posters want to make:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/637240-ultimate-marvel-vs-capcom-3/66774498

first thing my eyes land on

"-give Wolverine back his invincible b slash"

no

 

[Dahbomb]

Just make L and M faster (10, 15 start up, 20 for H) and make them go full screen. They are balanced by their frame advantage, L version is slightly minus the rest are positive as well as their damage. I still think you might need to tinker with the durability still.

I immediately closed the Gfaqs when I saw the 2nd post in it.

NVM I got trolled.

 

[SolarKnight]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72001281]O_O[/QUOTE]

...So you didn't know that? It's a good move that cancels upward momentum but an overhead it's not.

 

[Dahbomb]

I think the She Hulk, Phoenix and Wolverine changes are a lock. I still say the Phoenix hyper should be a ground hyper though, surprised no one else is chiming in on this.

It looks like people are still debating bad evidence for PW but we are close to finalizing that too. So I am going to go ahead and announce the next 4 characters:

Zero
Storm
Ghost Rider
Rocket Raccoon

3 of these we have already talked about so it's really RR we need to get down and dirty with.

 

[Karsticles]

I think the She Hulk, Phoenix and Wolverine changes are a lock. I still say the Phoenix hyper should be a ground hyper though, surprised no one else is chiming in on this.

It looks like people are still debating bad evidence for PW but we are close to finalizing that too. So I am going to go ahead and announce the next 4 characters:

Zero
Storm
Ghost Rider
Rocket Raccoon

3 of these we have already talked about so it's really RR we need to get down and dirty with.

Give me a list of Zero changes everyone wants. I missed all of that discussion.

 

[Dahbomb]

Give me a list of Zero changes everyone wants. I missed all of that discussion.

Well here's my list:

*Soft knockdown on Lightning removed
*Minimum scaling on specials reduced from 30% to 20%
*Lightning canceled by Buster negates Lightning properly (as opposed to getting a persistent beam coming out of Zero while he makes no forward progression)
*Hit stop during combos reduced so that his combos flow more naturally with his animations
*Prevent charging of Buster during own hyper. Currently Zero cannot charge his Buster during other player's hyper screen because time is supposed to freeze however he gets to charge in his own hyper. Obviously an exploit in the system.

 

[Karsticles]

Well here's my list:

*Soft knockdown on Lightning removed
*Minimum scaling on specials reduced from 30% to 20%
*Lightning canceled by Buster negates Lightning properly (as opposed to getting a persistent beam coming out of Zero while he makes no forward progression)
*Hit stop during combos reduced so that his combos flow more naturally with his animations
*Prevent charging of Buster during own hyper. Currently Zero cannot charge his Buster during other player's hyper screen because time is supposed to freeze however he gets to charge in his own hyper. Obviously an exploit in the system.

Vergil will need the same nerf, then.

 

[Dahbomb]

Vergil will need the same nerf, then.

I guess you should write that in system mechanics then.

And for the new page, the next 4 characters are: Zero, Ghost Rider, Rocket Raccoon and Storm. Discussion on Phoenix Wright is still on going.

 

[Karsticles]

I guess you should write that in system mechanics then.

Done.