Support NeoGAF

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

He doesn't have bad evidence in his games, but it's clear that it was meant to mimic presenting evidence at the correct time...which is why Order in the Court eliminates all bad evidence. I really don't think Capcom would eliminate bad evidence, they intentionally put it there for a reason. We've discussed that Capcom has been wrong before, but I still don't think they'd eliminate it all together rather than buffing it.

Well said.

I'm curious if Wright was in the next versus game how Capcom would go about implementing him. Keeping him as he is here or totaly reworked. People seem pretty split on his gameplay but I think it's safe to say that a lot of people really like the character and enjoy his inclusion but he doesn't get as much play because of his gameplay style.

 

[kirblar]

Popping in to list my simple changes for Zero/Phoenix.

Take Phoenix's Level 3 XF infinite away. You don't get to 5 bars and she's the last one left? You should be up shit creek.

Zero- kill lightning loops outside of X-Factor. (This would also apply to Vergil's Sword loops.) There's just no good way to balance those types of chained supers. Sentinel can keep chained hard drives because of lolSentinel.

 

[Lee Chaolan]

Slasher and Poltergust - Have either of you played UglyWhen online?

 

[Karsticles]

Well said.

I'm curious if Wright was in the next versus game how Capcom would go about implementing him. Keeping him as he is here or totaly reworked. People seem pretty split on his gameplay but I think it's safe to say that a lot of people really like the character and enjoy his inclusion but he doesn't get as much play because of his gameplay style.

It's the fate of every complex character. People go for the easy stuff.

That said, I really want a consensus between you, Poltergust, and FSLink about evidence.

My two cents on the matter as a non-Wright player:
There are two kinds of random: positive random, and negative random.

Positive random is something like Hsien-ko's Anki Hou item toss (minus the bomb). With each item toss, you expect that a basic hit will connect, but sometimes you dizzy the opponent or cause additional hitstun. For the item tossing player, it's a great treat now and then. For the player getting hit, there can't be any reasonable claim to anger, since that player still got hit, and the chances are expected. It's a bit funny and hype when a dizzy happens.

Negative random is something like Wright's evidence search. With each search, you are hoping for good evidence. However, often you simply get pointless crap that doesn't help him at all. Now you have the additional hassle of trying to get rid of the item and more searching, all because you got a bad draw.

I can't accept the current system Wright uses because it's just fundamentally bad. However, I do respect that Wright has animations in place for bad item draws, he has a particular attack for throwing them away, he has a hyper that gets rid of bad evidence, and, of course, he picks up bad evidence in the first place. I think there must be a way to retain bad evidence without it being negative random, and I ask that the Wright players here work together to figure out a compromise of that nature. I think it would be for the best for everyone.

Two ideas:
1) Bad evidence toss causes a dizzy like Hsien-ko's item toss. This gives it a really strong use and makes people more wary of his projectile throws. If you get hit, Wright can search for a ton more evidence or get a free combo.

2) Evidence is no longer random, but rather there are pre-set patterns that distribute bad evidence evenly throughout the attempts. This ensures that while Wright picks up bad evidence, he will acquire his good evidence at a roughly even rate. The given pattern is chosen during the pre-match load screen.

These ideas could be combined or done separately, but they both fit our patch requirements and would help him out.

 

[Dahbomb]

Popping in to list my simple changes for Zero/Phoenix.

Take Phoenix's Level 3 XF infinite away. You don't get to 5 bars and she's the last one left? You should be up shit creek.

Zero- kill lightning loops outside of X-Factor. (This would also apply to Vergil's Sword loops.) There's just no good way to balance those types of chained supers. Sentinel can keep chained hard drives because of lolSentinel.

You can't just take out an XF infinite you have to know what is causing the problem. It's probably a hit stun problem in XF3 with the trap move, only if you nerf the hit stun on the move you make it a shittier move in general.

It's better to not make move changes around XF infinites/loops. Plenty of characters have XF shenanigans and Phoenix should be no exceptions.

Zero LL and Vergil SS loops are removed or at least we fixed the source of the problem.

 

[Karsticles]

Popping in to list my simple changes for Zero/Phoenix.

Take Phoenix's Level 3 XF infinite away. You don't get to 5 bars and she's the last one left? You should be up shit creek.

Zero- kill lightning loops outside of X-Factor. (This would also apply to Vergil's Sword loops.) There's just no good way to balance those types of chained supers. Sentinel can keep chained hard drives because of lolSentinel.

Phoenix needs the XF3 infinite because she sometimes needs to kill characters outside of Dark Phoenix because they're a bad matchup for her (Strider, Vergil). If you have to blow X-Factor on regular Phoenix, you are already up shit creek, because Dark Phoenix without XF3 is nothing to write home about.

Lightning loops take a ton of skill to do and are very cool. They should stay in, but with significantly reduced damage.

Slasher and Poltergust - Have either of you played UglyWhen online?

Do you have his contact info? I'd love to get his two cents in on this.

Zero LL and Vergil SS loops are removed or at least we fixed the source of the problem.

SS loops should stay in, too.

 

[JeTmAn81]

Zero:

Makes his damage scaling more reasonable. Probably nerfing it in the specials area would do it.

No more lightning loops. If it takes getting rid of Buster cancelling specials, then that's what it takes, but otherwise id be ok with keeping that because it gives him some interesting options.

Also if LL damage was more reasonable due to scaling changes id be ok with keeping them. But I can't see a reason they should do more than 300k damage per bar.

 

[Dahbomb]

Sorry Karst, no one thinks LL are cool not even God's Beard.

SS loops are still technically in but the hyper costs 2 bars now. So for 2 bars you can get one rep going if you really need that damage.

 

[FSLink]

Positive random vs Negative random stuff

Agreed.
What do you guys think of my proposed "predetermined load out"? Might need some adjustments of course.

We could just have it: First 3 evidence grabs, good evidence always, but not the better ones like cellphone, knife. If you toss them, the next time you pull for that slot is bad evidence, but bad evidence now causes hard knockdown and eats a beam/projectile like FoF. Another pull in that same slot will be the "better" evidence, and then it recycles from there. Food replaces bad evidence if he has significant amount of damage. I also find the idea that bad evidence causes hard knockdown, interesting...you could setup situations like tossing it->Maya super->DHC to someone who has a good OTG, and kind of get a ghetto DHC glitch off of it.

Bad evidence effects I'm open to changing too, like the dizziness thing is an interesting idea as well.

Sorry Karst, no one thinks LL are cool not even God's Beard.

I like them but I'm a dirty Zero main. I think if you make his meter gain more reasonable, fix his normals, and make LL scale properly that'd be ideal. Keeps a similar playstyle, but less bullshit buttons, and no more "I touch you once, and gain enough meter for lightning loops that do unscaled damage"

There's other changes I'd make too but can't think of them right now.

 

[Karsticles]

@FSLink: I like your suggestion a lot in concept, but I want to think about it more.

Sorry Karst, no one thinks LL are cool not even God's Beard.

I think they are very cool, and I will fight for them. Remember that Zero is my most hated character in this game, so no bias here.

Sorry Karst, no one thinks LL are cool not even God's Beard.

SS loops are still technically in but the hyper costs 2 bars now. So for 2 bars you can get one rep going if you really need that damage.

What about the SS form changes?

 

[JeTmAn81]

I like LL as well but they have to be the most lopsided damage return on meter investment in the game and that has to change.

 

[Karsticles]

I like LL as well but they have to be the most lopsided damage return on meter investment in the game and that has to change.

I want to nerf the damage to around ~150K per look.

 

[Dahbomb]

The problem is that LLs are most likely caused by Lightning having soft knockdown. Even if you want LLs to remain that can't happen because Lightning having soft knockdown has to be gone.

If for some reason LLs persist even after the soft knockdown removal then you have to knockdown scaling to 10% to make the damage fair.

If it was 150k damage no one would go for LL as Skittles will do more damage for way less execution .

For Vergil, 2 bars for SS and if the command is inputted during hyper freeze you get next formation at no cost. If you wait too long and try to stack the duration the extra formations would be 1 bar.

No one wants the extra formations to be lessened, they in fact make Vergil interesting.

 

[kirblar]

Lightning loops take a ton of skill to do and are very cool. They should stay in, but with significantly reduced damage.

HONZO GET IN HERE!

No one wants the extra formations to be lessened, they in fact make Vergil interesting.

They're the best part.

 

[FSLink]

The problem is that LLs are caused by Lightning having soft knockdown. Even if you want LLs to remain that can't happen because Lightning having soft knockdown has to be gone.

If for some reason LLs persist even after the soft knockdown removal then you have to knockdown scaling to 10% to make the damage fair.

H Lightning to hit Doom and Trish is one of Zero's few tools against them though.
I do think we should eliminate stuff like random L/M lightning, lol you hit Zero? Punished by lightning that just appeared. Make lightning disappear properly if he's hit? Or make it so he he's slower, so he can't do M lightning xx Buster xx L teleport and have enough time to go over to combo, but you can still punish people who stay in the air too much.

If it was 150k damage no one would go for LL as Skittles will do more damage for way less execution .

I think if you manage to do 3-5 LLs in a row, you should be rewarded with a dead character, but I don't like the current 1 touch death stuff Zero can do. Not sure what to adjust exactly but that should be the end goal.

 

[Poltergust]

Slasher and Poltergust - Have either of you played UglyWhen online?

I don't think so. I stopped playing online months ago.

 

[Dahbomb]

H Lightning to hit Doom and Trish is one of Zero's few tools against them though.
I do think we should eliminate stuff like random L/M lightning, lol you hit Zero? Punished by lightning that just appeared. Make lightning disappear properly if he's hit? Or make it so he he's slower, so he can't do M lightning xx Buster xx L teleport and have enough time to go over to combo, but you can still punish people who stay in the air too much.

It's not a tool it's an exploit. It's so clearly an unintended feature of the character.

Trish/Doom giving you problems? What you got Jam Session for?

 

[JeTmAn81]

So the two major Zero problems are his options on incoming characters and his overall damage right? I am ok with taking away lightning knockdown if that fixes the incoming. It would probably kill LL as well. Zero can do 800k easy with a Rekkoha ender and maybe that should be where his damage is coming from anyway . Sougenmu can just be for zoning and confirms in special situations like crossover counters.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

I fucking hate Zero but the lighting loops need to stay. I'm sure they're fun to do for Zero players and that's not something I'd take away. Just severely reduce the damage.

Something needs to be done about his air mobility. That shit needs to change bad. Maybe he can't do any specials after an air teleport

And how about only lighting during Sougenmu causes soft knockdown? Zero players get to keep their loops but not rely on derp lighting outside of super.

 

[Karsticles]

The problem is that LLs are most likely caused by Lightning having soft knockdown. Even if you want LLs to remain that can't happen because Lightning having soft knockdown has to be gone.

They could just have a lot of hitstun. LLs are done close to the ground.

If for some reason LLs persist even after the soft knockdown removal then you have to knockdown scaling to 10% to make the damage fair.

I plan on the scaling being 10%.

For Vergil, 2 bars for SS and if the command is inputted during hyper freeze you get next formation at no cost. If you wait too long and try to stack the duration the extra formations would be 1 bar. If it was 150k damage no one would go for LL as Skittles will do more damage for way less execution.

No one wants the extra formations to be lessened, they in fact make Vergil interesting.

Why not just always give him a second formation at no cost?

HONZO GET IN HERE!

Honzo wasn't even competent enough to read our patch notes correctly.

Spoiler

And he mixes up "your" and "you're".

 

[SolarPowered]

Sorry Karst, no one thinks LL are cool not even God's Beard.

SS loops are still technically in but the hyper costs 2 bars now. So for 2 bars you can get one rep going if you really need that damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG8dX13lSps

My first exposure to Zero's lighting. I knew that fucker was too much for the game, but them combos are pretty to look at. Zero rules the FG skies alongside Ky and Pikachu. One false step and the wrath of God will come down on your ass in a flash of light.

 

[JeTmAn81]

Balanced Lightning Loops would still need to do decent damage but would never be chosen over Rekkoha unless the Zero is desperate for damage and has lots of meter. They should be situational and not often seen, like Sentinel's Hard Drive loops.

 

[FSLink]

I fucking hate Zero but the lighting loops need to stay. I'm sure they're fun to do for Zero players and that's not something I'd take away. Just severely reduce the damage.

Something needs to be done about his air mobility. That shit needs to change bad. Maybe he can't do any specials after an air teleport

And how about only lighting during Sougenmu causes soft knockdown? Zero players get to keep their loops but not rely on derp lighting outside of super.

I like this idea. Also needs to be fixed is being able to call assists from super jump height as Zero. Not usually used due to lightning being superior most of the time currently, but it's something that needs to be looked at.

 

[Dahbomb]

Incoming character mix up isn't a "problem" with Zero it's the high damage. Also Lightning not persisting after a Buster cancel would help mitigate his mix ups some what but not that much.

The 2 major problems with Zero have always been the following:

*Confirming near full screen super jump height stray Lightning hit into a combo -> fixed by soft knockdown fix and no Lightning persisting after Buster cancel
*Confirm any touch/throw into a TOD for 1 bar -> Fixed by scaling and no soft knockdown

Lightning Loops is a symptom of two issues mainly... scaling and soft knockdown on Lightning. Both of those are fixed so he shouldn't really have it but if he did.. it would do way less damage than before and may not be the preferred combo ender.

My choice for damage scaling for him would be 15/15, just because his base damage isn't all that high, and he has so many multi-hit moves.

I kept it at a very generous 20/20 because God's Beard was getting on my ass that he should get only one nerf (lol).

 

[Frantic]

I always felt like LL should do around 200k at max. Give some incentive to use it over Rekkoha(which does 180k), but not so much you should use it every time.

My choice for damage scaling for him would be 15/15, just because his base damage isn't all that high, and he has so many multi-hit moves.

 

[JeTmAn81]

I'm ok with Zero calling assists at super jump height. His air superiority and options are part of his character design.

 

[FSLink]

I'm ok with Zero calling assists at super jump height. His air superiority and options are part of his character design.

Except it can only be done in a specific way (Ryuuenjin H->Buster shot->H teleport). It's unintended.

It's not a tool it's an exploit. It's so clearly an unintended feature of the character.

Trish/Doom giving you problems? What you got Jam Session for?

Well yeah, I wouldn't mind if that matchup got weaker without Jam Session/Vajra, but it sounds interesting to only allow it during clone super. Not sure if it's still be too powerful. (It'd definitely help fix random lightning at super jump height at the start of the round to a full combo at least)

 

[JeTmAn81]

Except it can only be done in a specific way (Ryuuenjin H->Buster shot->H teleport). It's unintended.

I thought that teleport H from the ground put you up that high.

 

[Dahbomb]

No one needs to changing anything about assist calling on Zero or his mobility. It's not even remotely a problem. He is supposed to have solid mobility options, good defense with normals and solid zoning options. You can't take any of that away... we are just fixing the truly broken shit.

 

[kirblar]

Balanced Lightning Loops would still need to do decent damage but would never be chosen over Rekkoha unless the Zero is desperate for damage and has lots of meter. They should be situational and not often seen, like Sentinel's Hard Drive loops.

They're just a fundamentally bad thing. You don't want to put the game into "watch this infinite" mode. It's demoralizing to an opponent and miserable for spectators. It's one of the reason's Dante's combos got nerfed in length.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

I have no problem with the assist calling from SJ height. If you can manage to get way the fuck up there without super jumping then more power to you.

 

[Dahbomb]

They're just a fundamentally bad thing. You don't want to put the game into "watch this infinite" mode. It's demoralizing to an opponent and miserable for spectators.

I was about to bring this point up.

Even if people LIKE Lightning Loops... that shit will 100% get removed in a potential patch. Mostly because that is what prompted Capcom to say "hey maybe this game DOES need balance adjustment". It's a bad look on the company when at the biggest competitive stage one character is doing this crazy infinite loop to kill other characters... it's a sign of a game not working as advertised and it was advertised as being infinite free due to new HSD engine. Well at least infinites outside of XF.

It's one of the reason's Dante's combos got nerfed in length.

LOL no it didn't. I mean nerfed very slightly in length... they were nerfed hard in damage and meter gain mostly.

 

[FSLink]

I was about to bring this point up.

Even if people LIKE Lightning Loops... that shit will 100% get removed in a potential patch. Mostly because that is what prompted Capcom to say "hey maybe this game DOES need balance adjustment". It's a bad look on the company when at the biggest competitive stage one character is doing this crazy infinite loop to kill other characters... it's a sign of a game not working as advertised and it was advertised as being infinite free due to new HSD engine.

I do agree with that. They even tried removing it the first time didn't they? Or was that unintended?

 

[SolarPowered]

They're just a fundamentally bad thing. You don't want to put the game into "watch this infinite" mode. It's demoralizing to an opponent and miserable for spectators. It's one of the reason's Dante's combos got nerfed in length.

But it's Mahvel

 

[Dahbomb]

I do agree with that. They even tried removing it the first time didn't they? Or was that unintended?

Lightning Loops? They were never really attempted to fix although Capcom did fix some not that broken loops for Zero going into Ultimate. Just some very basic Shipuuga loops.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8Mo6QYbIaE

 

[Frantic]

They're just a fundamentally bad thing. You don't want to put the game into "watch this infinite" mode. It's demoralizing to an opponent and miserable for spectators. It's one of the reason's Dante's combos got nerfed in length.

This is false. Outside of vanilla Acid Rain loops and the DHC, Dante's combos are probably longer now than they were in vanilla because people now try to squeeze as much damage out of his combos as possible. Shot loops, Sky Dance > Beehive loops, the reduced Acid Rain loops, etc. People went for baby combos in vanilla because they did absurd damage(and were harder due to double motions), so they didn't really last that long.

Although I suppose you could argue they did reduce the potential for longer combos, but ultimately they come out to the same length.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

No one needs to changing anything about assist calling on Zero or his mobility. It's not even remotely a problem. He is supposed to have solid mobility options, good defense with normals and solid zoning options. You can't take any of that away... we are just fixing the truly broken shit.

Well I suppose his air mobility makes me so salty because of soft knockdown on lightning. All he ever has to do is hang out, charge buster, throw some lighting, get results.

I don't know if you saw my post but I think lighting should still do soft knockdown if he's in sougenmu. I think this would make things kinda interesting. Folks might start burning meter for them lightnings.

His meter building should also be reduced. I don't like seeing lightning loops 2 times in a row.

 

[kirblar]

This is false. Outside of vanilla Acid Rain loops and the DHC, Dante's combos are probably longer now than they were in vanilla because people now try to squeeze as much damage out of his combos as possible. Shot loops, Sky Dance > Beehive loops, the reduced Acid Rain loops, etc. People went for baby combos in vanilla because they did absurd damage(and were harder due to double motions), so they didn't really last that long.

Although I suppose you could argue they did reduce the potential for longer combos, but ultimately they come out to the same length.

They may be around the same length, but he's not doing the same things over and over again. They're much more interesting now.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Oh and Sentsuizan should only pick up one character.

 

[SloaneRisette]

Anyone up for some games later potentially? I wanna start trying out some of my new team ideas and see how they go.

 

[Dahbomb]

If you reduce his scaling his meter build is nerfed accordingly. We don't want to DOUBLE TAP NERF Zero like Capcom did to Dante.

I don't know if you saw my post but I think lighting should still do soft knockdown if he's in sougenmu. I think this would make things kinda interesting. Folks might start burning meter for them lightnings.

No, it's too stupid especially for neutral and corner mix ups. Most likely if you are skilled, under Sogenmu you might be able to pick up a combo after a Lightning because it hits twice but you have to be on point with the conversion. Maybe.

 

[FSLink]

Anyone up for some games later potentially? I wanna start trying out some of my new team ideas and see how they go.

I'm down.\

 

[kirblar]

If you reduce his scaling his meter build is nerfed accordingly. We don't want to DOUBLE TAP NERF Zero like Capcom did to Dante.

I would consider Ultimate Dante just fine?

 

[Dahbomb]

I would consider Ultimate Dante just fine?

Dante is fine but if you gave Zero Dante's scaling values he would do super duper shit damage and meter gain.

Also scaling values was not the only department Capcom nerfed Dante. They nerfed individual moves as well in terms of damage and HSD on top of the universal meter gain nerf.

You probably don't remember Vanilla Dante much but his combos were mostly the same. He just had better Acid Rain and Shot Loops stuff but they weren't overly long or repetitive.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Anyone up for some games later potentially? I wanna start trying out some of my new team ideas and see how they go.

Sure, which system are you on? I'm on both.

 

[kirblar]

Dante is fine but if you gave Zero Dante's scaling values he would do super duper shit damage and meter gain.

Also scaling values was not the only department Capcom nerfed Dante. They nerfed individual moves as well in terms of damage on top of the universal meter gain nerf.

Ah, gotcha. Yeah, I would just want to turn the shadows into a devoted zoning/rushdown/assist power-up tool and bring him back to relying on Skittles to finish combos, rather than nerf his playstyle.

You probably don't remember Vanilla Dante much but his combos were mostly the same. He just had better Acid Rain and Shot Loops stuff but they weren't overly long or repetitive.

I most definitely remember Dante being the old Zero/Vergil. (Oh, look, he's doing a combo, time for a nap.)

 

[Karsticles]

Zero:
*Soft knockdown on Lightning removed; hitstun remains high.
*Minimum scaling on specials and normals reduced 15%
*Lightning canceled by Buster no longer creates a hitbox.
*Hit stop during combos reduced for improved combo flow.
*Sentsuizan no longer hits multiple characters.
*Level 3 buster shot hitbox reduced, requires 200 charging frames, hits 9 times.
*j.H startup increased to 12 frames.

Assists: Hadangeki L, Ryuenjin H, Hadangeki H

 

[Frantic]

If you reduce his scaling his meter build is nerfed accordingly. We don't want to DOUBLE TAP NERF Zero like Capcom did to Dante.

Do you mean hitstun scaling? Because damage scaling plays no part in meter build. It's only base damage that affect meter build.

They may be around the same length, but he's not doing the same things over and over again. They're much more interesting now.

That's a completely different complaint, then. And one I don't really agree with because Dante's combo potential was much more interesting in vanilla than in Ultimate. In Ultimate, you're shoe-horned into specific combos while in vanilla you could (generally)freestyle it.

 

[Dahbomb]

I most definitely remember Dante being the old Zero/Vergil. (Oh, look, he's doing a combo, time for a nap.)

That's because Dante was perceived as top tier/broken (well he was top tier for sure) and his combos did a lot of damage. You knew if you got touched by Dante it was over. Now people perceive Dante as High Mid tier character with low damage so they can stomach watching him combo. There was a time when Zero did Lightning Loops in Vanilla and it was "hype".

You can go ahead and search old Vanilla Dante games.. you will hardly find combos that run longer than Dante combos these days.

Do you mean hitstun scaling? Because damage scaling plays no part in meter build. It's only base damage that affect meter build.

I meant that soft knockdown means he has less end of combo extensions he can bank on.

*Sentsuizan no longer hits multiple characters.
*Level 3 buster shot hitbox reduced, requires 200 charging frames, hits 9 times.
*j.H startup increased to 12 frames.

Assists: Hadangeki L, Ryuenjin H, Hadangeki H

First of all... why are you changing his assist? I don't see the utility in having an L fireball vs an H fireball. Why not just giving him a Buster shot instead?

Secondly I cannot be behind Setsuizan not hitting multiple characters. This was a problem when Zero did boat loads of damage, now it's not a big deal. If you start on this slippery slope then a lot of characters should have their OTG 2 character pick ups be nerfed. I don't want that at all.

God's Beard is about to go ham on you for nerfing Pizza Cutter... And Buster's hit box is fine, the hit bubble is EXACTLY the size of the visual projectile animation. Probably one of the few moves in the game that is properly hit box coded.

 

[Frantic]

I meant that soft knockdown means he has less end of combo extensions he can bank on.

Okay, that's what I figured, but seeing 'scaling' makes me think of damage scaling so I wanted to be sure we were on the same page.

Edit: No reason to nerf pizza cutter, especially since there is no mention of the superior d.H which has 9 frames of startup.