Unfortunately this is true. As much as I like Ghost Rider as a character, he is dry as fuck and if he was top tier we would never hear the end of it. At least Morrigan is hard to play... This version of Ghost Rider would still lose to teleporters but would really demolish characters who he was already strong against.
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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
You gotta worry about the characters he already shuts down though.
Wesker usually has to resort to shooting him with the samurai, for example.
F Wesker.
Karsticles
Member
Most of our changes don't really affect his neutral, though. He's just a little more consistent and better at what he does.
With the new Dormammu assists I plan on, they might go together well. It's actually interesting to think that Ghost Rider could provide the backup needed for Dormammu to charge 3D0C as an assist character. ;-)
You mean that Ghost Rider is so free to Wesker that he can troll with shots all day.
His assists seems pretty damn perfect (aside from Purification needing start-up.)
He doesn't "resort" to it, he does it because Ghost Rider cant do shit about it without an AA assist. Its why I quit the character to begin with. Having chip on whips and air OK Chain of Rebuttal means Wesker now has to get in or he will lose the battle of attrition... as it should've been because Wesker zoning out a dedicated zoner is dumb as hell anyway.
Besides Wesker is going to have an invincible counter to beat Ghost Rider now. The match up would be much more intelligent now.
Seeing the proposed list here as a Zero main is pretty interesting. I definitely agree with the 2nd, 4th, and 5th points. I remember thinking that only Raikousen outside of sougenmu should have soft knockdown, but the 1st point is a pretty good idea too. I sort of disagree with point 3 though. With the nerfs, I don't think removing the hitbox after a buster cancel is necessary, but that's just imo. Health nerf, I do agree with if things like Hidden Missiles get nerfed. Zero against a Deadpool backed up with good assists is a pain to bulldog in.
Oh, also, they need to remove Raikousen crossing up in the corner. It didn't do that in Vanilla, and I disagree with it being in Ultimate.
Karsticles
Member
What? Dormammu has really mediocre assists. I completely revamped them.
You agree with Zero not being able to OTG two characters? *glares at Dahbomb, GB, and Frantic*Seeing the proposed list here as a Zero main is pretty interesting. I definitely agree with the 2nd, 4th, and 5th points. I remember thinking that only Raikousen outside of sougenmu should have soft knockdown, but the 1st point is a pretty good idea too. I sort of disagree with point 3 though. With the nerfs, I don't think removing the hitbox after a buster cancel is necessary, but that's just imo. Health nerf, I do agree with if things like Hidden Missiles get nerfed. Zero against a Deadpool backed up with good assists is a pain to bulldog in.
Oh, also, they need to remove Raikousen crossing up in the corner. It didn't do that in Vanilla, and I disagree with it being in Ultimate.
The problem with Raikousen x Buster is that it basically locks off the entire screen. He can also do it without the charged buster, so it's like free lightning all over the screen whenever.
Are you sure Raikousen didn't cross up in corners in Vanilla?
Dark Hole and Liberation see consistent play. (And liberation is the perfect type of "open ended customization" that draws people into the team building aspect of the game.)
"God's Beard!"
Member
I can troll Ghost Rider all day with overhead counters as wesker. Fun fight.
You guys do realize that the Lightning persisting after the Buster cancel is a bug right? 110% that shit gets removed in a patch. If it was an intended feature, the Lightning would have projectile durability points like Vergil. As it is you can't counter it with anything in the game in terms of physical or projectile. Its just a linear invincible hit box with no real properties to it aside from causing soft knockdown.
Karsticles
Member
Dark Hole and Liberation see consistently play because you have to pick an assist for him, lol. They're both very bad. I improved Liberation to be Dark Spell L, and Dark Hole was removed for Dark Matter.
"God's Beard!"
Member
So? Lots of moves are like that. Skrull's dhalism normals, Vergils H.
They see consistent play because the character is used in high level play. That's like saying Nova's Centurion Arts assist sees consistent usage.... right because among his mediocre assists it's the only usable one.
Dorm has mediocre assists and Liberation is a gimmick at best.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I just mean there's no hurtbox.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
What if Nitsuma saw this thread?
Okay. I'm jumping on the bandwagon. I want a Shuma team too. I sometimes play Shuma in my Spidey/Doom shell, but I want a Shuma team which has synergy with Shuma, but not necessarily centred around Shuma.
Any ideas? I will hit the SRK forums too. I think Karst played Shuma for some time. Any suggestions are welcome.
Any ideas? I will hit the SRK forums too. I think Karst played Shuma for some time. Any suggestions are welcome.
Ghost Rider wins EVO 2014 confirmed
Yeah, but they're not bad assists. Liberation is a very cool and unique one, due to its mutative properties, and Dark Hole's used as a lockdown assist to create set ups. Purification's the one you never see, due to its massive start up time making it useless as an OTG (unless I'm misremembering completely.) It's the one of the 3 I'd want to mess around with.
There's a certain type of player who it's going to appeal to. I don't want to take it from them.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72059116]I just mean there's no hurtbox.[/QUOTE]
That's not what I am talking about. That move has no classification and is not counterable by anything in the game. If Capcom wanted it to be a zoning tool it would have projectile durability. Its obviously a big over sight in the design of the character.
That's not what I am talking about. That move has no classification and is not counterable by anything in the game. If Capcom wanted it to be a zoning tool it would have projectile durability. Its obviously a big over sight in the design of the character.
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
Yeah, it's pretty much all Wesker can do... and it beats GR. (Then again, so does EVERYBODY)
Although I don't think seen a "serious" GR without Hidden Missles ever... so that makes it a bit harder.... Either take the missles and stay up there or block and have to come down.
But yeah, buffing the Hellfire storm super (the Thor looking one), so it can be used as a relatively safe (not totally) anti teleport panic button would be good.
Mediocre? Yeah. But liberation is usable as a OTG combo extender after something like Wesker gunshot, Haggar dropkick, etc.
Inferno (ground volcano 2C1R I think??) as an assist can single handedly win games, though... esp if you have someone who can pick up and do a damaging combo for awhile after it like Doom, Spencer, or Zero. Viper sorta counts...
"God's Beard!"
Member
You're wrong. I just countered it with Wesker's projectile counter.
Karsticles
Member
Taskmaster, Rocket Raccoon, and Dr. Strange are Shuma-Gorath's best mutually helpful partners.
Professor Beef
Banned
I just want to thank Karst for getting me killed by trying to beat Strider's teleport with Joe's air S. Thanks for nothing.
Well, now you're making me iffy if Sentsuizan should or shouldn't now lol.
Raikousen x Buster was pretty interesting for Zero. And I swear they tried to balance it with the added recovery on Hienkyaku but it wasn't enough (same with not being able to buster cancel an TKed M Raikousen iirc). Either way, I feel like it's fine as it is with the proposed ideas for Zero nerfs. He won't be able convert off of it from full screen like usual (well, he can, but he has to not cancel too early). As a pressure tool, it's mostly good if he has assists with him. Without it, I feel like his safest option is to air block if they didn't pushblock him (Buster into L Raikousen isn't safe and I'm pretty sure L Hienkyaku isn't either if they're too close).
And yeah, I'm like 90 percent sure L Raikousen couldn't cross up in the corner in Vanilla. If it did, it's tons easier to have it happen in Ultimate.
Tonosama has already shown that Shuma/Ammy is borderline broken.
Shuma/Ammy/RR is 'no blocking. only OCVs now' level hilarity
EDIT: Had my players confused
"God's Beard!"
Member
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
That doesn't sound like a good idea, even if it worked out.
Karsticles
Member
LOL. You have to practice!
I'm indifferent at this point.
It's just too strong of an anti-air tool. Being able to fire lightning across the screen without any frame committal is not healthy, I say!
News to me.
Angelic said that because the only person who uses Shuma-Gorath on point and doesn't suck uses that team. It's a great team, but I think "best" is a bit strong when the sample size is 1.
Well I stand correctly then. Still its an unintended feature of ths character. I have to believe that Capcom did not intend this to hapoen and it was an oversight. Otherwise Nitsuma to be voted for best developer of all time.
Time to go to bed. Today has been a super intensive theory patch talk day. Tomorrow I might not be on as much because have to work.
Time to go to bed. Today has been a super intensive theory patch talk day. Tomorrow I might not be on as much because have to work.
Poltergust
Member
No, I would keep Press the Witness over it.
And please don't leave bad evidence alone. None of the other buffs will mean anything until we can fix this fundamental flaw.
Bad idea. Damage reduction should be done by a character-by-character basis.
I can't really agree with any of these.
-Invincible Turnabout Mode assists, as much as I miss them, are simply too broken.
-I don't agree with bad evidence existing in the first place lol.
-Increasing the DHC window for Order in the Court is pointless because Wright can already easily DHC into anyone he wants.
SolarKnight
Member
What if rather than invincibility you gave Wright's assists some armor?
Karsticles
Member
Press the Witness seems kind of bad, though. Is there something you would prefer over that?
It's a good alpha counter assist/combo extender.
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
Everything in the game does too much damage. Most characters can be killed in 2 meters (which are easily built mid combo) by half the cast. 3 is guarunteed death. An across the board reduction is needed and most people agree.
Invincible Turnabout assists almost made him worth using, lol.
Bad evidence is 100% essential given the nature of his design and faithfulness to the source material. It's also probably why this character can never be good. He simply has both 3 things are are awful to balance in fighters
=Kind of a joke character (he's obviously here for comedy)
= pure luck based specials (this never, never works in competitive play)
= a design where the character starts shitty and if X conditions are met, becomes GDLK (ala Phoenix and Frank)
Give him some small buffs, make turnabout slightly less brain dead, call it a day. The design itself strongly indicates this character can't be good.
Karsticles
Member
I have some hilarious Haggar changes planned.
Press the Witness question: the guide says that the M version hits 5 times, and the H version hits 7 times, but both have the same number of active frames. Do they cause the same amount of pin?
Press the Witness question: the guide says that the M version hits 5 times, and the H version hits 7 times, but both have the same number of active frames. Do they cause the same amount of pin?
"God's Beard!"
Member
When we finish and show people outside of gaf our requests, put System at the end instead of the beginning. We don't want people getting pissed about 20% damage changes without looking at all the good stuff.
I hate you :-(
I hate you :-(
Well now I want sentsuizan to stay as it is, haha.I'm indifferent at this point.
It's just too strong of an anti-air tool. Being able to fire lightning across the screen without any frame committal is not healthy, I say!
As for the lightning change, I felt like it was fair to keep the hitbox because you can't convert off of H Raikousen easily without the soft knockdown. But I do admit that the option of the lightning is pretty good though... The longer buster charge time does kind of make up for it at least.
I think PW's Turnabout mode is fine considering how impractical it feels to set it up, and even then, it's hard to open people up since it's difficult if they're up-backing.
I know PW's a joke character and all, but I feel like they need to at least buff some of his normals and mobility. It's just all so awful as it is lol
Edit: Also it'd be helpful if the invisible dizzy meter didn't go down as fast.
Poltergust
Member
The problem here is that while you're nerfing the characters who do high damage, you are also nerfing the characters that do low damage. Ghost Rider and Hsien-Ko don't do enough damage as it is and you want to nerf their damage output even more?
I'm not saying that some characters shouldn't have their damage nerfed, but it should not be blanketed across the whole cast.
In his current form, this is true. Which is why we are buffing him with other things so he would be more worth using outside of Turnabout Mode. The proposed list of changes we have only has one (admittedly substantial) buff to Turnabout Mode, with most of the buffs going into Trial Mode.
Bad evidence pretty much contradicts the source material. Not a single piece of evidence in any of his games goes unused. There is no "bad evidence" in the world of Ace Attorney, which is why I'm baffled as to why Capcom included such an awful mechanic. As for your points:
-He's not a joke character, he's a comedic character. They would not give a joke character Turnabout Mode and a great set of specials and hypers. I really don't understand why some people say this.
-Luck-based specials? What are you talking about? Besides the trajectory of his Folder and Cell Phone projectiles, he has nothing luck-based about his specials. Well, unless you are talking about evidence gathering, which is why we're trying to make it have as little an impact as possible, and thus my proposal for getting rid of bad evidence.
-And both of those characters are around the high-mid tier area, possibly even high-tier. Who's to say that Wright can't join them?
I disagree here. It's actually very possible to buff him too much and make him totally broken. I would definitely not disregard a character's design like that.
Small buffs are definitely not what a character everyone considers to be bottom 5 needs. Small buffs are what Hsien-Ko got going into Ultimate and she's still awful.
Karsticles
Member
The goal is to nerf damage across the board and tinker with high damage characters to tone them down. Ghost Rider's damage will be normal. Hsien-ko is such a mix-up and pressure monster with my not-yet-released changes that you will be glad her damage is low.
Karsticles
Member
That would ruin quite a few setups for no reason, including my main one.
Poltergust
Member
What would you replace it with? There needs to be something for cinematic supers.
Professor Beef
Banned
This isn't one of his games, though.
RE: Wright bad evidence debate, why can't both options be added to the list but as an "either/or" (eg: - Remove bad evidence OR make bad evidence pulls less frequent etc). I mean this is for Capcom to see right? Why not just present both options then for them to have? Maybe adding what is wanted out of the evidence mechanic since I think everyone agrees with that bit at least will also help paint the picture of how it should be balanced, should they do anything other than what was presented on the list.