Professor Beef
Banned
Thanks. I couldn't really tell, I don't tend to think while playing.
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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
Thanks. I couldn't really tell, I don't tend to think while playing.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Anyone down to play later today hit me up gonna be trying to finally get around to finishing Ni No Kuni
Karsticles
Member
Because we want to figure out how to make the game good, not just offer suggestions.
Face it Tiger..
Banned
What do we do with our suggestions,
do we give a summation of our suggestions to eventhubs?
PS: Vanilla She-Hulk pls X-X
do we give a summation of our suggestions to eventhubs?
PS: Vanilla She-Hulk pls X-X
Karsticles
Member
I will tweet them to everyone at Calvin and Marvel, post them on the CU boards, post it on GFAQs, post it on eventhubs, post it on SRK, etc.
And we already did She-Hulk.
Very curious where you came down on the c.L change for her, because I felt it was in line with her being a grappler character.
Face it Tiger..
Banned
I saw the list from God's beard, I want to add to it add make She-Hulk less weighty, like she was from Vanilla compared to Ultimate.
Slept on it, woke up... still think Zero not picking up 2 characters from his only OTG special move is a bad idea.
Keeping that standard for other characters would hurt many characters like Sentinel, Hulk, Haggar, Captain America, She Hulk, Vergil, X23, Iron Man.
The original problem with Zero was that he could take 2 characters into a Lightning Loop, that's not going to be a problem anymore. We already nerfed his BnB, no need to nerf his character pick ups. If his damage is low he would still have to XF to kill both characters.
And honestly only 2 people think this is a good idea, most other people think it's a bad idea and going a bit over board.
Keeping that standard for other characters would hurt many characters like Sentinel, Hulk, Haggar, Captain America, She Hulk, Vergil, X23, Iron Man.
The original problem with Zero was that he could take 2 characters into a Lightning Loop, that's not going to be a problem anymore. We already nerfed his BnB, no need to nerf his character pick ups. If his damage is low he would still have to XF to kill both characters.
And honestly only 2 people think this is a good idea, most other people think it's a bad idea and going a bit over board.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
All otg's should be able to multi hit, ones that only hit one character fuck over characters so god damn bad it's not even funny. Congrats you hit them and the assist! Your reward is a shitty shorter version of your combo instead of doing full damage
I would be against Zero picking up 2 characters if he was the only one, he's not. It's way more pervasive with characters like Hulk and Sentinel who not only have huge normals but they have aerial bounces which makes it easier for them confirm 2 characters. Imagine removing 2 character pick up from RP and Gamma Wave.... would not only kill their point game but the assists as well.
Another problem with Zero was that he got many 2 hits with Buster but we nerfed that too. He will have less opportunities in matches to get 2 characters. Increasing the charge time on Buster is a big deal for Zero it affects numerous portions of his game play.
I bought the game in the Capcom sale on Xbox Live and I don't really know what I'm doing. Is it worth buying this guide?
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0744013542/?tag=neogaf0e-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0744013542/?tag=neogaf0e-20
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Why not just let his uppercut OTG and remove the OTG from the Buster? *shrug*
SolarPowered
Member
Not being able to pick up an assist even though you can pick up the point character sounds selective and bad. Doesn't matter if you are rock bottom or top tier.
Karsticles
Member
Yes, and we are also glad to help you in any way we can.
Thanks, I stuck it on my Amazon wish list for now. But I think I will start here since it's free.
http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Ultimate_Marvel_vs_Capcom_3
http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Ultimate_Marvel_vs_Capcom_3
That's where I went when I first got the game, it's very helpful to read through and watch the beginner videos. They've also got info (frame data, tips, etc.) for every individual character
"God's Beard!"
Member
Buster doesn't OTG -_-
That makes no sense.... unless that was the point. If you are talking about allowing Setsuizan to pick 2 characters but not Buster then that might be even worse for the character as now the Buster loses its piercing capability. So assist characters can block for the point character, nullifying Buster completely.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Pretty much
As long as zero loses lighting loop stupidity and gets some proper combos with his clone I dont care what you guys do to him really SolarPowered
Member
"God's Beard!"
Member
Doom's feet can't.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Update your guides:
I've been doing some testing, Rocket Raccoon's Bear Trap is a 1 medium durability point projectile.
Thus, we know the type of move and its exact durability.
I've been doing some testing, Rocket Raccoon's Bear Trap is a 1 medium durability point projectile.
- It activates Wesker's Projectile counter and gets negated by Dormammu's normals.
- It negates all low durabilty projectiles during its active frames through Hawkeye's Piercing Shot.(infinite low durability)
- It trades with MODOK's Balloon Bomb(1 medium durability). If I throw out Balloon Bomb and dash next to it, Bear Trap destroys the Balloon Bomb but doesn't hit MODOK.
Thus, we know the type of move and its exact durability.
****Zero Changes said:
Seems interesting..
So, Biz recapping....
Raikousen becomes a combo ender or at least requiring a re-launch. The move becomes totally useless except against people on the ground where it has notable shortcomings already or as a way to travel across the screen quickly.
Any hit in the air while not as part of a combo is essentially a quick hit that knocks down. Zero would not be able to follow up on this hit without expending a level 3 Buster because he just falls helplessly otherwise, allowing no quick follow up. Obviously this removes his Buster for at least 3 seconds which doesn't matter too much in this scenario since he still has to get an additional hit for combo or get an OTG.
Assuming Zero didn't superjump, he could call an assist at this point to try and continue a combo. Most likely something like release Buster 3, Sentsuizan or "teleport" down, call assist, continue combo. Maybe.
Buster does 9 hits and takes longer to charge. With how much power it has, a reasonable suggestion on its own admittedly.
Ignoring health reduction (not a bad suggestion, especially if missiles are reduced) and Sentsuizan not hitting two people (doesn't make sense to me, but w/e), the question that should be answered before you call it done is to see how much of a damage reduction this means for Zero due to all changes combined.
It doesn't seem like that this is too bad overall, actually, now that I've typed it out and thought about it as I did so haha...but damage should still be considered. Essentially you'd also replace Raikousen with down teleports after Buster in his combos normally.
Karsticles
Member
Are we ready for four more?
Doom's OTGs can pick up two characters, it's just that his Foot Dive only hits one so you rarely see him convert from them.
OTGs that only pick up one character(to my knowledge):
Dante:
Rainstorm
Cold Shower(little note: this one can pick up two characters, but they have to be in the exact same spot. If they're in different spots, only one character gets picked up... for whatever reason)
Million Carats(This one has its hitbox disappear once it hits a character)
Acid Rain(will hit both if they're in different spots. If they're in the same spot, only one gets hit)
Spider-Man:
Web Glide
Chris:
f.M
cr.H
Machine Gun fire
Shotgun
Wesker:
Low Shot
Strider:
Formation B
Legion(yes, it only hits one character in some situations. >_>)
Chun-Li:
Her stomp
Arthur:
Fire Bottle(normal and gold)
Hawkeye:
Poison Tip
Freeze Shot
Firebrand:
Hell Spitfire H
Iron-Man:
Smart Bomb L(but not M or H)
Taskmaster:
His air arrows
Dr. Strange:
Grace of Hoggoth M(all three levels) explosion
Rocket Raccoon:
Spitfire L
I think that's about it. I might be forgetting some, and you're free to point it out.
OTGs that only pick up one character(to my knowledge):
Dante:
Rainstorm
Cold Shower(little note: this one can pick up two characters, but they have to be in the exact same spot. If they're in different spots, only one character gets picked up... for whatever reason)
Million Carats(This one has its hitbox disappear once it hits a character)
Acid Rain(will hit both if they're in different spots. If they're in the same spot, only one gets hit)
Spider-Man:
Web Glide
Chris:
f.M
cr.H
Machine Gun fire
Shotgun
Wesker:
Low Shot
Strider:
Formation B
Legion(yes, it only hits one character in some situations. >_>)
Chun-Li:
Her stomp
Arthur:
Fire Bottle(normal and gold)
Hawkeye:
Poison Tip
Freeze Shot
Firebrand:
Hell Spitfire H
Iron-Man:
Smart Bomb L(but not M or H)
Taskmaster:
His air arrows
Dr. Strange:
Grace of Hoggoth M(all three levels) explosion
Rocket Raccoon:
Spitfire L
I think that's about it. I might be forgetting some, and you're free to point it out.
Raikousen would still be effective for corner mix ups, just wouldn't be completely stupid.
At max scaling Zero would do half damage of what he does now, not including the damage from assists and his lvl1/lvl3 hypers. So whatever damage a single Lightning Loop does, just half it.
My estimation is that without assists he would be able to do 400-500K meterless, with assists he should still be able to do 600K meterless off of clean hits. A single lightning loop on average does 425K damage (from what I have seen from various videos) that means that now it will do 210K damage at max scaling if he was still allowed to do LL. That's still higher than what his regular hyper does at max scaling, meaning the value is extremely fair.
At XF1 he would do the same damage as before meaning he can easily do 1 million + combos. Before XF1 was redundant with the character... XF1 puts scaling minimum at 35% IIRC and his scaling minimum was 30%. So now Zero actually gets real benefits from XF.
So from what I can tell only Chun Li's Foot stomp is the move that can't OTG 2 characters. That sounds to me like an exception to the rule and that character could definitely use the buff.
I really don't know how else I can justify the reasoning.
At max scaling Zero would do half damage of what he does now, not including the damage from assists and his lvl1/lvl3 hypers. So whatever damage a single Lightning Loop does, just half it.
My estimation is that without assists he would be able to do 400-500K meterless, with assists he should still be able to do 600K meterless off of clean hits. A single lightning loop on average does 425K damage (from what I have seen from various videos) that means that now it will do 210K damage at max scaling if he was still allowed to do LL. That's still higher than what his regular hyper does at max scaling, meaning the value is extremely fair.
At XF1 he would do the same damage as before meaning he can easily do 1 million + combos. Before XF1 was redundant with the character... XF1 puts scaling minimum at 35% IIRC and his scaling minimum was 30%. So now Zero actually gets real benefits from XF.
I was asking for physical moves, all the ones you listed are projectile moves.
So from what I can tell only Chun Li's Foot stomp is the move that can't OTG 2 characters. That sounds to me like an exception to the rule and that character could definitely use the buff.
I don't know if the RR list is complete. I do know for sure that most people are still very uneasy about the Setsuizan change. I think looking at the entire cast and checking for OTG moves, taking out the 2 character property makes it an arbitrary change on the character. It puts a bad precedent to set because now we have to start taking out 2 character pick up moves for other characters. I don't like that at all, let Zero have it. Whatever combos he gets now will do much less damage especially off of Buster shots. If he gets a happy birthday with a Buster shot he might not be even able to relaunch because the charge timer has been increased so he would still have to settle for X factoring and burning meter (he would have to burn meter anyway).
I really don't know how else I can justify the reasoning.
Karst and Dahbomb, you guys write so much about this game you could be award winning authors. lol.
Great changes so far, mahvelGAF community!
I haven't contributed much yet since we haven't gone over any characters that I use regularly.
I think we're probably ready for another set of four characters to balance.
Great changes so far, mahvelGAF community!
I haven't contributed much yet since we haven't gone over any characters that I use regularly.
Really!? #buffLegion
I think we are close to finalizing these 4 characters anyway so I am going to post the next 4 characters.
Frank West (another systems mechanic character)
Dante (because he goes well with Frank West and Zero)
Shuma Gorath (EVO hype)
Chris (another character that benefits from Dante)
Frank West (another systems mechanic character)
Dante (because he goes well with Frank West and Zero)
Shuma Gorath (EVO hype)
Chris (another character that benefits from Dante)
Skrull's little stomp move can't pick up two characters either, but I didn't list it since it's pretty much a troll move.
Other than that, pretty much every physical move hits two or more characters. I could have sworn Toy Touch didn't pick up two characters, but a quick test showed it did. I bugged out on that one.
I'll wait a bit before posting a list of changes for him. I have a semi-long list of changes, but I don't want everything on it. Just want to spark discussion and see what people think of said changes.
I don't know any of these characters either.
Frank West:
-Remove snapshot -> funny face crusher guardbreak.
-???
-Profit.
Shuma Gorath:
-Fix his weird hurtbox so that regular combos actually work on him.
Well, the "best" lightning loop modification does 500k+ ish, but no one does it lol....
Loop starts.
Air Light Raikousen
Air Light Raikousen
Air Medium Raikousen
Air Light Raikousen
Air Light Raikousen (clones have worn off by this point)
Heavy Ryuenjin, cancel into buster level 3
Light Raikousen
With your changes here he can now Rekkoha at this point and this version of the loop builds more meter. The "old way" would have been another Heavy Ryuenjin (if you started around 590k before the loop, you'll end over 1.1 million currently here).
I.e., the only concern I have is this essentially forces Zero to always go for a lightning loop since what really gets hurt is the scaling on a non-loop combo. I'd prefer the loops themselves get wrecked and force him to use Rekkoha or resets more. He has some really good resets I can't use because lol loops.
In short..I can't believe I am typing this, but...nerf him harder.
He doesn't have Lightning Loops anymore, the soft knockdown is removed on Lightning so they will pop out. Even then 250K damage off of Lightning Loop is extremely fair, there are standard LVL1 hypers that do about as much damage. It would still be more optimum to go for resets now.
Karsticles
Member
I dropped the Sentsuizan nerf a while ago. I don't know why it is still being argued. I will post changes for those four in half an hour.
@Dahbomb, no, LLoops are still in.
@Dahbomb, no, LLoops are still in.
Definitely don't agree with OTG moves (of any kind really) not picking up two characters. Otherwise, those Zero changes are pretty great.
Aw yeah, it's fucking go time.
Aw yeah, it's fucking go time.
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
Yeah, I agree 100%. LLoops are challenging enough that their presence isn't unbalanced... It's the damage that's kinda out of whack (i.e. how many characters does Zero actually have to "Loop", vs how much just die on the first sogennmu?)
Also, with the time and personal investment zero players put into LLs, I think taking them away wouldn't be fair to them, and may cause them to drop the character.
BTW... I missed the She Hulk list, I'll search for it now, but is it linked anywhere?
EDIT: Found it. I agree with them. I would like for Chariot to have 1 hit of armor (it IS her equivalent to gamma charge...) but that's ok.
I like the Phoenix ones, too. But my healing field suggestion is cool, dammit.
I like that Wolverine's berserker charge heals. I've been super nutty that Wolvy's healing factor hasn't been a thing in Capcom games since X-Men COTA.
Professor Beef
Banned
I guess I'd better duck out of here for Dante changes.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Dante:
I decided to go with a series of subtle changes to make the character overall more reliable without significantly buffing him.
- TAC startup reduced from 10-12 frames to 6 frames
- Pushback on H decreased
- Rain Storm input changed from jHH to jHHH
- Invincibility frames removed from Devil Trigger
- Max scaling on H attacks increased from 5% to 10%
- Crouching L startup reduced by 1 frame to 7 frames.
I decided to go with a series of subtle changes to make the character overall more reliable without significantly buffing him.
This logic doesn't hold water when every good Zero player is doing them.
XxSlasherMcGirkxX
Member
Any PSNer's wanna play? Mango I still wanna play you sometime.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I'll play. Just let me grab a drink and I'll log on.
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
There's only one good zero player in my book right now. And even he drops them sometimes (he dropped several against justin).
The other two zero frauds were awful. Cloud didn't hit a single loop in 5 games vs Angelic.
And... the difficulty of doing LLs (as well as buster charging) is a big barrier to entry to playing Zero that I think needs to stay there.
XxSlasherMcGirkxX
Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72172706]I'll play. Just let me grab a drink and I'll log on.[/QUOTE]
Shit I was doing the same.
Shit I was doing the same.
Professor Beef
Banned
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72172706]I'll play. Just let me grab a drink and I'll log on.[/QUOTE]
Do you guys have room for one more?
If it's there, they'll find a way to do it. Dropping loops due to dropped frames (SFAE PC on bad computers says hi) is not a good method to balance. Players will always push for optimized stuff. Repetitive Sword/Lightning loops are terrible for the game. They're infinites that require meter.
Karsticles
Member
It turns out I have the third post in this thread, so I edited it for all of our current changes. So, if anyone ever wants to know the status of what we have done so far (not what we are working on right now), just look at that third post.
Here are my suggest changed for Chris, Dante, Shuma-Gorath, and Frank West:
Shuma-Gorath:
*Air dash movement extended to 8 directions; distance increased by 50%; total time to completion unaltered; 3 air dashes per jump.
*Mytic Stare and Mystic Ray chargeup time reduced to 30 frames.
*Aerial normals are dash-cancelable.
*Mystic Smash hitbox increased considerably.
*j.S is now special cancelable, and characters knocked down by it during air series land next to Shuma-Gorath instead of far away.
*Mystic Stare assist now shares the point versions functionality.
*Mystic Ray assist startup reduced to 47 frames.
*Strange Gaze now turns opponents to stone for 90 frames; aerial opponents fall to the ground; usable once per combo.
*Shuma-Gorath's hitbox is now more consistent during combos.
Assists: Mystic Ray H, Mystic Stare H, Strange Gaze
Frank West:
*Snapshot now -5 on block.
*Level 5 health buff removed.
*Chip damage reduced to 15%.
*Pick Me Up frame data now shares that of Dark Harmonizer.
*Tools of Survival hitstun increased slightly (ensures he can link 3 after a TAC).
*Bottoms Up's vomiting effect will be negated if Frank West hits an opponent.
Assists: Shopping Cart, Pick Me Up , Hammer Throw H
Dante:
*Bold can no longer cancel whiffed attacks.
*s.L hitstun increased slightly.
*Level 2 Stinger vertical hitbox increased slightly.
*Helm Breaker no longer has a hitbox behind it.
Assists: Weasel Shot, Jam Session, Hysteric
Chris:
*Flamethrower vertical hitbox increased, slight upper body invincibility.
*Grenade fires now dim significantly when the active frames have finished.
*Flame Thrower damage reduced.
Assists: Gun Fire M, Grenade Toss H, Flamethrower
Here are my suggest changed for Chris, Dante, Shuma-Gorath, and Frank West:
Shuma-Gorath:
*Air dash movement extended to 8 directions; distance increased by 50%; total time to completion unaltered; 3 air dashes per jump.
*Mytic Stare and Mystic Ray chargeup time reduced to 30 frames.
*Aerial normals are dash-cancelable.
*Mystic Smash hitbox increased considerably.
*j.S is now special cancelable, and characters knocked down by it during air series land next to Shuma-Gorath instead of far away.
*Mystic Stare assist now shares the point versions functionality.
*Mystic Ray assist startup reduced to 47 frames.
*Strange Gaze now turns opponents to stone for 90 frames; aerial opponents fall to the ground; usable once per combo.
*Shuma-Gorath's hitbox is now more consistent during combos.
Assists: Mystic Ray H, Mystic Stare H, Strange Gaze
Frank West:
*Snapshot now -5 on block.
*Level 5 health buff removed.
*Chip damage reduced to 15%.
*Pick Me Up frame data now shares that of Dark Harmonizer.
*Tools of Survival hitstun increased slightly (ensures he can link 3 after a TAC).
*Bottoms Up's vomiting effect will be negated if Frank West hits an opponent.
Assists: Shopping Cart, Pick Me Up , Hammer Throw H
Dante:
*Bold can no longer cancel whiffed attacks.
*s.L hitstun increased slightly.
*Level 2 Stinger vertical hitbox increased slightly.
*Helm Breaker no longer has a hitbox behind it.
Assists: Weasel Shot, Jam Session, Hysteric
Chris:
*Flamethrower vertical hitbox increased, slight upper body invincibility.
*Grenade fires now dim significantly when the active frames have finished.
*Flame Thrower damage reduced.
Assists: Gun Fire M, Grenade Toss H, Flamethrower
How are LL still in with those proposed changes? Unless the reason LLs are possible is not because of the soft knockdown property of Lightning... in which case I don't really care. A 250K Lightning loop that is execution extensive is definitely not "imbalanced". Also allows non execution heavy players to pick up Zero without having to worry about doing LLs because they can get by doing resets and Skittles.
Dante:
+ Minimum scaling on special moves increased from 5% to 10% (Multi hit moves bumped from 3% scaling to 5%)
+ s.LM anti-air chain combos on counterhit
+ Moderately decreased pushback on normals
+ Fireworks regains piercing ability
+ c.L startup decreased to 5 (or 6?) frames
+ Fixed issue with c.L not hitting certain floating characters
- Bold Blocking removed (via decreased number of pre-jump frames on Bold Move?)
- Removed invul frames on Devil Trigger activation
- Devil Trigger bonuses stack additionally with X-Factor instead of multiplicatively
- Jam Session assist startup increased; push back distance on block decreased
The idea here is to make him a more reliable character overall without returning the insanity of Vanilla Dante and also addressing little things that could result in another monster character. The Jam Session assist nerf is a bit of pre-emptive measure as the pecking order of assists changes in the theory patch.
+ Minimum scaling on special moves increased from 5% to 10% (Multi hit moves bumped from 3% scaling to 5%)
+ s.LM anti-air chain combos on counterhit
+ Moderately decreased pushback on normals
+ Fireworks regains piercing ability
+ c.L startup decreased to 5 (or 6?) frames
+ Fixed issue with c.L not hitting certain floating characters
- Bold Blocking removed (via decreased number of pre-jump frames on Bold Move?)
- Removed invul frames on Devil Trigger activation
- Devil Trigger bonuses stack additionally with X-Factor instead of multiplicatively
- Jam Session assist startup increased; push back distance on block decreased
The idea here is to make him a more reliable character overall without returning the insanity of Vanilla Dante and also addressing little things that could result in another monster character. The Jam Session assist nerf is a bit of pre-emptive measure as the pecking order of assists changes in the theory patch.