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[Renegade_Civil-War]

Shuma-

If anything, I think the performance by Angelic (and the play of Tonosama) shows how little we understand about Shuma.

He's obviously pretty damn good. Optimized solo damage of 1 million for 2 bars no Xfactor? Crazy.

BTW, didn't Mystic Stare use to drain Meter while the balls were attached? It'd be cool if he had that and it was availiable as an assist. Be useful as another hard phoenix counter.

Make the "Shuma Pose" cancelable or something. It's horrid. Ruins so much setup potential and his command grab.

He used to be able to combo after Chaos Dimension in MSH... is that asking to much?


Chris-
Prone shot special/super cancelable
(this is completely anti morrigan)




Frank-

It really depends on systems changes. any TAC changes will affect frank a lot.

Maybe putting an experience cap on pictures? Most good setups are two pictures anyway though.

These characters (leveling up style) are so hard to balance.

Can we nerf paddlesaws hitboxes just a little, though? Jump around MMMMM is dumb as hell.

 

[Dahbomb]

+ Minimum scaling on special moves increased from 5% to 10% (Multi hit moves bumped from 3% scaling to 5%)

HELL NO! We ain't going back to Vanilla Dante son. Dante's damage is fair, let's keep it that way.

The two main things I want changed from Dante are his anti-air st.L/st.M series back and push back on Jam Session reduced significantly. Haggar against Zero + Jam Session is like 10 - 0, it's hard enough getting in on Zero but then when he blocks Jam Session he is pushed back all the way having to start over again. A nerf on Jam Session is fair because with a nerf incoming on Missiles it would otherwise be the best assist in the game.

 

[Azure J]

Dante:
*Bold can no longer cancel whiffed attacks.
*s.L hitstun increased slightly.
*Level 2 Stinger vertical hitbox increased slightly.
*Helm Breaker no longer has a hitbox behind it.

Assists: Weasel Shot, Jam Session, Hysteric

This is actually something I'll fight against. I will give you Bold Blocking most definitely, but this isn't the method to go about it, especially when a raw Bold Move out of a normal leaves Dante vulnerable in the air for a considerable amount of time.

Why the assist change from Crystal to Hysteric btw? I mean, I guess it could be worse (LOL Acid Rain assist), but Crystal's pretty cool right now too.

 

[Dahbomb]

No changing Crystal assist either, some characters like Vergil need/want that. Magneto can use it too. Dante already has 2 great assists, let him have an OTG assist with semi lock down and good durability.

 

[Azure J]

HELL NO! We ain't going back to Vanilla Dante son. Dante's damage is fair, let's keep it that way.

Wasn't his Vanilla scaling something nuts like 15 or 20% though? I'm not advocating for him to get Real Sparda Spawn Damage™, but I do feel like he shouldn't be break dancing on someone's pixel of health for 10 seconds only to still need a meter to finish them with the first bullet from Million Dollars. (Stupid Beehive)

All the same, I'm open to weird numbers between 5% and 10%. I just used 10% because increments of 5 are easier on the eyes and mind.

Edit: Maybe a better question/mindset to have for where you're all aiming for this stuff: Where do you all ideally want to see individual character damage heading in this theory patch environment? If everyone's going to be doing current solo Dante damage - 20% to account for the system damage nerf then I can definitely rescind that buff and feel happy with how it turns out.

 

[Dahbomb]

Dante uses way too many special moves in his combos for the scaling to be higher than 5%. Even at 5% he is doing decent damage. Giving him stuff like reduced push back on normals and his anti air series back it means he will be converting pokes into damage a lot more. I would only have agreed to changing his scaling if he did Strider or Firebrand level damage but he doesn't.

 

[kirblar]

No changing Crystal assist either, some characters like Vergil need/want that. Magneto can use it too. Dante already has 2 great assists, let him have an OTG assist with semi lock down and good durability.

People really need to stop changing assists willy-nilly on these lists.

Dante's great as point/secondary but bad on Anchor, in return, he's generally an all-around all star. It's a fair trade-off.

 

[Professor Beef]

Wasn't his Vanilla scaling something nuts like 15 or 20% though? I'm not advocating for him to get Real Sparda Spawn Damage™, but I do feel like he shouldn't be break dancing on someone's pixel of health for 10 seconds only to still need a meter to finish them with the first bullet from Million Dollars. (Stupid Beehive)

All the same, I'm open to weird numbers between 5% and 10%. I just used 10% because increments of 5 are easier on the eyes and mind.

mabe u shud lrn to optimise your combs skub

 

[Dahbomb]

People really need to stop changing assists willy-nilly on these lists.

Karst is adamant about giving everyone 3 good assists. Only he made the change on a character who already has 3 good assists.

Where do you all ideally want to see individual character damage heading in this theory patch environment? If everyone's going to be doing current solo Dante damage - 20% to account for the system damage nerf then I can definitely rescind that buff and feel happy with how it turns out.

Right now Zero and Dante would have similar damage. Magneto, Doom, Wolverine, Dorm, Spencer, Hulk, Vergil and Chris are getting nerfed in damage too. I mean freakin' Rocket Raccoon didn't get a buff in scaling and he does low damage without Boulder Loops.

 

[DeadPhoenix9065]

*Bottoms Up's vomiting effect will be negated if Frank West hits an opponent.

can his taunt also negate the vomit? He is drinking water after all

 

[kirblar]

Karst is adamant about giving everyone 3 good assists. Only he made the change on a character who already has 3 good assists.

"Good" is subjective.

 

[Azure J]

mabe u shud lrn to optimise your combs skub

Oh Beef. <3

Spoiler

Real talk, I think that's just my desire to see what the hubbub about Dante's past damage was about. Then again, if Dah himself is telling me that the halfway point between Vanilla and Ultimate is bad, I think I'll just heed his advice on the matter. :lol

Dante's great as point/secondary but bad on Anchor, in return, he's generally an all-around all star. It's a fair trade-off.

He's not even really that bad an anchor which is pretty funny given the assists he possesses.

 

[Renegade_Civil-War]

Karst is adamant about giving everyone 3 good assists. Only he made the change on a character who already has 3 good assists.

I'd love to add a 4th assist to everyone in the game. I mean, hell, why not? That would create more team variety than almost anything else we could do.

 

[Dahbomb]

I'd love to add a 4th assist to everyone in the game. I mean, hell, why not? That would create more team variety than almost anything else we could do.

Too radical of a change for the game although I wouldn't be against it. Although some characters hardly have enough moves to have 4 assists (like Zero unless you wanna give him Buster as an assist).

"Good" is subjective.

Not really, some assists are definitely better than others. However, removing an assist that actually gets used in competitive play I can't get behind. Yipes has a team in which all the other 2 characters make use of the assist and it's essentially his favorite team (Dante/Vergil/Magneto). With secondary Vergil going to the way side, OTG assists would be way more valuable for him and without Crystal that means Vergil and Dante won't have as much synergy. NAH SON... Vergil and Dante without synergy? CAN'T HAVE THAT AT ALL!!!

 

[Azure J]

I'd love to add a 4th assist to everyone in the game. I mean, hell, why not? That would create more team variety than almost anything else we could do.

Something like this is far too grand for the scope of just a patch though. Wait for Uncanny Marvel vs. Capcom 3 or MvC4 before we go there.

 

["God's Beard!"]

GGs Slasher, have to go move some stuff

 

[Frantic]

Here is my list of changes for Dante. As I said earlier, I don't want all of them, but I want to see what people think of them and which ones they think are 'reasonable'.

[+] s.L can now once again combo into s.M as a true anti-air. [Alternatively &#8211; s.L can now combo into s.M as an anti-air counter-hit.]
[+] j.L can now properly combo into j.M during a normal jump
[+] cr.M pushback on hit reduced to vanilla levels. [Additionally: Has 1 extra active frame, to bring it up from 2 to 3]
[+] Stinger can be canceled into Million Stabs during frames 1-10 of recovery on block or hit.
[+] cr.H now special cancelable throughout the move(there are some weird spots it can't be canceled at, for whatever reason.)
[+] Drive now hyper cancelable during startup
[+] Air normals have reduced pushback, but only on superjump variants(to prevent uncomboable situations with certain characters, but also prevent easier confirms from normal jump height)
[+] Bold Move's recovery special cancelable in addition to its startup.
[-] No longer able to block during Bold Move's startup frames.
[-] Sky Dance no longer resets the ground bounce on the final hit(but prior hits still cause the extended ground bounce if the final hit whiffs)
[-] Grapple no longer causes a forced neutral tech(and Spencer's OTG grapple should no longer as well)
[-] Invincibility removed on Devil Trigger startup


I know jack shit about Shuma so I'll abstain from suggestions for him. Might propose one for Chris and Frank if I can think of anything.

Not really, some assists are definitely better than others. However, removing an assist that actually gets used in competitive play I can't get behind. Yipes has a team in which all the other 2 characters make use of the assist and it's essentially his favorite team (Dante/Vergil/Magneto). With secondary Vergil going to the way side, OTG assists would be way more valuable for him and without Crystal that means Vergil and Dante won't have as much synergy. NAH SON... Vergil and Dante without synergy? CAN'T HAVE THAT AT ALL!!!

Crystal is just there for ez mode Round Trip loops, since you can't even really convert off a raw Helm Breaker with Crystal due to its speed, whereas with Jam Session you can - and you can also convert off his ground throw with it whereas with Crystal you can't.

Basically what I'm trying to say is Jam Session > Crystal for Vergil.

 

[Professor Beef]

*Bottoms Up's vomiting effect will be negated if Frank West hits an opponent.

can his taunt also negate the vomit? He is drinking water after all

It's water, not coffee.

EDIT: Slasher, did you wanna play?

 

[Dahbomb]

If Frank West is getting 15% chip on normals... this sounds like we are just making a system change like I requested as Ghost Rider also now has 15% chip on normal. Because I thought the whole point of giving Ghost Rider 15% was to differentiate his normals from Frank West who has to power up to earn his at 30%?

[-] Sky Dance no longer resets the ground bounce on the final hit(but prior hits still cause the extended ground bounce if the final hit whiffs)

Nah son, you can't nerf that. That actually rewards point Dante and milking his combo potential. That move is kinda useless in the neutral so it has to be a good combo extending move. And Dante needs all the combo milking he can get.

But your other changes are all extremely acceptable, the best ones I have seen thus far. I am still adamant about lessening the push back from Jam Session as an assist, I think that assist is unfair against ground characters especially when Zero is behind it.

 

[Karsticles]

How are LL still in with those proposed changes? Unless the reason LLs are possible is not because of the soft knockdown property of Lightning... in which case I don't really care. A 250K Lightning loop that is execution extensive is definitely not "imbalanced". Also allows non execution heavy players to pick up Zero without having to worry about doing LLs because they can get by doing resets and Skittles.

I wrote that Raikousen still has high minimum hitstun. It will still lead to a soft knockdown when performed near the ground at high hitstun.

Dante:

+ Minimum scaling on special moves increased from 5% to 10% (Multi hit moves bumped from 3% scaling to 5%)
+ s.LM anti-air chain combos on counterhit
+ Moderately decreased pushback on normals
+ Fireworks regains piercing ability
+ c.L startup decreased to 5-6 frames
+ Fixed issue with c.L not hitting certain floating characters
- Bold Blocking removed (via decreased number of pre-jump frames on Bold Move?)
- Removed invul frames on Devil Trigger activation
- Devil Trigger bonuses stack additionally with X-Factor instead of multiplicatively
- Jam Session assist startup increased

The idea here is to make him a more reliable character overall without returning the insanity of Vanilla Dante and also addressing little things that could result in another monster character. The Jam Session assist nerf is a bit of pre-emptive measure as the pecking order of assists changes in the theory patch.

Added several of these. Why does the Jam Session startup need to increase?

HELL NO! We ain't going back to Vanilla Dante son. Dante's damage is fair, let's keep it that way.

The two main things I want changed from Dante are his anti-air st.L/st.M series back and push back on Jam Session reduced significantly. Haggar against Zero + Jam Session is like 10 - 0, it's hard enough getting in on Zero but then when he blocks Jam Session he is pushed back all the way having to start over again. A nerf on Jam Session is fair because with a nerf incoming on Missiles it would otherwise be the best assist in the game.

I have new tools for Haggar to combat this. :-D

This is actually something I'll fight against. I will give you Bold Blocking most definitely, but this isn't the method to go about it, especially when a raw Bold Move out of a normal leaves Dante vulnerable in the air for a considerable amount of time.

Why the assist change from Crystal to Hysteric btw? I mean, I guess it could be worse (LOL Acid Rain assist), but Crystal's pretty cool right now too.

Name one player who uses Crystal.

No changing Crystal assist either, some characters like Vergil need/want that. Magneto can use it too. Dante already has 2 great assists, let him have an OTG assist with semi lock down and good durability.

Name one player who uses Crystal. Vergil has no use for Crystal. df.H + Jam Session is superior in every way. Tracking missiles are a fantastic and versatile assist to replace something so weak.

"Good" is subjective.

Tell me all the amazing uses for Amaterasu's Solar Flare assist.

 

[Dahbomb]

Yipes uses Crystal as does FrankieG. I named two right there.

Vergil has no use for Crystal. df.H + Jam Session is superior in every way. Tracking missiles are a fantastic and versatile assist to replace something so weak.

No way is it superior because Jam Session causes massive scaling and Crystal does not. Crystal is way superior for Vergil combos now that he can't Sword loop without spending a lot of bar. Crystal is also better for lock down/pressure because it does not have the huge push back of Jam Session on block. You get far more optimized combos off of Crystal than Jam Session.

Removing Crystal basically makes point Vergil with Dante obsolete. I want these two to retain synergy not lose it.

 

[kirblar]

Tell me all the amazing uses for Amaterasu's Solar Flare assist.

Which one is that? Bloom just needs to be better.

 

[Karsticles]

If Frank West is getting 15% chip on normals... this sounds like we are just making a system change like I requested as Ghost Rider also now has 15% chip on normal. Because I thought the whole point of giving Ghost Rider 15% was to differentiate his normals from Frank West who has to power up to earn his at 30%?

It can't be a system change because we need to list what attacks do chip for some characters. It's fine to devote a line to it. I don't think Frank should get 30% chip on normals. Ridiculous.

[+] Bold Move's recovery special cancelable in addition to its startup.

HEEEEELLLLLL no. This allows Dante + Dark Harmonizer to chip entire teams out without any kind of ability to respond.

1) Any kind of special.
2) Devil Trigger.
3) Call Dark Harmonizer.
4) TK Vortex
5) Link two more Vortexes.
6) Call Dark Harmonizer.
7) Bold Cancel on landing x Vortex

Etc. etc. Vortex can't even be pushblocked and it's invincible, so you just sit there.

Which one is that? Bloom just needs to be better.

The one that reflects projectiles for about 10 frames but takes 30 frames to appear, making it utterly impossible to call reliably, and which will almost always just cause you to lose Amaterasu.

QUOTE=Dahbomb;72180641]Yipes uses Crystal as does FrankieG. I named two right there.[/quote]
FALSE: Yipes does not play Dante.
FrankieG...haha. If everyone really thinks Crystal should be in over the amazing Hysteric, I'll change it, but I don't know why anyone would want to downgrade like that.

No way is it superior because Jam Session causes massive scaling and Crystal does not. Crystal is way superior for Vergil combos now that he can't Sword loop without spending a lot of bar. Crystal is also better for lock down/pressure because it does not have the huge push back of Jam Session on block. You get far more optimized combos off of Crystal than Jam Session.

Only for the combos, and you only use it for the combos. Jam Session actually lets you get those combos in the first place because it's good.

Removing Crystal basically makes point Vergil with Dante obsolete. I want these two to retain synergy not lose it.

In Evo top 8, there were two Dante/Vergil duos, and they both used Jam Session. Don't cite irrelevant players as an argument!

 

[Professor Beef]

Which one is that? Bloom just needs to be better.

The fact that you don't know what Solar Flare is kinda proves the point. It's Ammy's projectile counter, but as an assist. And it is garbage.

 

[FSLink]

Yipes uses Crystal as does FrankieG. I named two right there.


No way is it superior because Jam Session causes massive scaling and Crystal does not. Crystal is way superior for Vergil combos now that he can't Sword loop without spending a lot of bar. Crystal is also better for lock down/pressure because it does not have the huge push back of Jam Session on block. You get far more optimized combos off of Crystal than Jam Session.

Removing Crystal basically makes point Vergil with Dante obsolete. I want these two to retain synergy not lose it.

Was gonna type something up but this summarizes how I feel about it.
When I'm using ZMC, I really do miss Crystal over Jam Session due to the benefits you stated.

 

[Dahbomb]

You didn't reply to my system mechanic change on normal chip.

Crystal is just there for ez mode Round Trip loops, since you can't even really convert off a raw Helm Breaker with Crystal due to its speed, whereas with Jam Session you can - and you can also convert off his ground throw with it whereas with Crystal you can't.

Basically what I'm trying to say is Jam Session > Crystal for Vergil.

You do realize that in this patch Vergil is getting SS for 2 bars right? I really want to see the pathetic damage that people will get off of Jam Session combos when they can't do SSs all the time anymore with Vergil's godlike 5% scaling on normals. Also Crystal is better for Round Trip pressure as well.

 

[kirblar]

The fact that you don't know what Solar Flare is kinda proves the point. It's Ammy's projectile counter, but as an assist. And it is garbage.

Completely ok with that one getting binned.

 

[Karsticles]

Completely ok with that one getting binned.

But I thought its usefulness was subjective.

You didn't reply to my system mechanic change on normal chip.


You do realize that in this patch Vergil is getting SS for 2 bars right? I really want to see the pathetic damage that people will get off of Jam Session combos when they can't do SSs all the time anymore. Also Crystal is better for Round Trip pressure as well.

Jam Session is better for pressure because you can use it to cross under, since everyone superjumps to get out of Round Trip pressure.

The damage off of SS won't matter whether you use Crystal or not. One Lunar Phase and he'll be capped out regardless.

Type out Vergil's bnbs with Jam Session and Crystal, and tell me the end damage off of 1 SS loop.

If all of the Dante players on this board unanimously prefer Crystal over Hystic, I'll change it back.

 

[DeadPhoenix9065]

It's water, not coffee.

EDIT: Slasher, did you wanna play?

I said it was "water after all" where did coffee come from?

 

[Professor Beef]

I said it was "water after all" where did coffee come from?

Water doesn't really do anything to curb the effects of alcohol, IIRC.

 

[Azure J]

[+] s.L can now once again combo into s.M as a true anti-air. [Alternatively – s.L can now combo into s.M as an anti-air counter-hit.]
[+] j.L can now properly combo into j.M during a normal jump
[+] cr.M pushback on hit reduced to vanilla levels. [Additionally: Has 1 extra active frame, to bring it up from 2 to 3]
[+] Stinger can be canceled into Million Stabs during frames 1-10 of recovery on block or hit.
[+] cr.H now special cancelable throughout the move(there are some weird spots it can't be canceled at, for whatever reason.)
[+] Drive now hyper cancelable during startup
[+] Air normals have reduced pushback, but only on superjump variants(to prevent uncomboable situations with certain characters, but also prevent easier confirms from normal jump height)
[+] Bold Move's recovery special cancelable in addition to its startup.
[-] No longer able to block during Bold Move's startup frames.
[-] Sky Dance no longer resets the ground bounce on the final hit(but prior hits still cause the extended ground bounce if the final hit whiffs)
[-] Grapple no longer causes a forced neutral tech(and Spencer's OTG grapple should no longer as well)
[-] Invincibility removed on Devil Trigger startup

I'm honestly very curious about what you thought of my list now. Mind you, I like Grapple forcing the neutral tech, but this list is pretty awesome. Bold Move buff though is definitely your inner scientist speaking.

 

[kirblar]

But I thought its usefulness was subjective.

I have a much higher standard for proactive ones in Marvel than reactive ones (which are generally just awful.) Akuma's Air Dive Kick is another "lol im out here forever" one that could use a massive overhaul.

There are really neat things you can do with Liberation, for instance, and Dark Hole's used in Haggar/Wolverine teams. Purification's the one you never see, and does need help. You want to minimize disrupting existing teams too heavily.

 

[Karsticles]

Current Dante list is at 10 changes; if the Dante players want changes, argue for the specific change being more important than something else that will get replaced as a result.

Dante:
*Bold can no longer cancel whiffed attacks.
*s.L hitstun increased slightly.
*Level 2 Stinger vertical hitbox increased slightly.
*Helm Breaker no longer has a hitbox behind it.
*Devil Trigger invincibility frames removed.
*c.L startup reduced to 7 frames.
*Fireworks regains piercing ability.
*Knockback reduced on Dante’s normals; s.LM anti-air chains consistently.
*Jam Session pushback decreased slightly.
*Drive now hyper cancelable during startup.

Assists: Weasel Shot, Jam Session, Hysteric

 

[Frantic]

I'd rather have Hysteric over Crystal, but that's just me. I don't like Crystal assist much at all. >_>

HEEEEELLLLLL no. This allows Dante + Dark Harmonizer to chip entire teams out without any kind of ability to respond.

1) Any kind of special.
2) Devil Trigger.
3) Call Dark Harmonizer.
4) TK Vortex
5) Link two more Vortexes.
6) Call Dark Harmonizer.
7) Bold Cancel on landing x Vortex

Etc. etc. Vortex can't even be pushblocked and it's invincible, so you just sit there.

Not really. Bold Move takes longer to get into a jump than a normal TK, and it props Dante much higher in the air to the point the vast majority of the cast outside of Sentinel and Nemesis can duck under the Vortex. Additionally, it takes far too long to land, Bold Move, Vortex that anyone can just stick out a normal and whack him before the invincibility starts up.

I've tested all this(with H&H Special Cancel card). The only way it could work is if you like, s.L > Stinger after landing and those are pushblockable so there's no infinite chip setups.

 

[Dahbomb]

Type out Vergil's bnbs with Jam Session and Crystal, and tell me the end damage off of 1 SS loop.

Why should I type out BnBs for a game which has SS for 1 bar? For 2 bars no one is going to be looping with Vergil they will have to go for standard combos maximizing Round Trip and Lunar Phase into Dimension Slash. The only reason Jam Session was viable for Vergil was because despite the high scaling Spiral Swords mitigated it as it allowed Vergil to do high damage even at max scaling. That would not be the case anymore.

And by the way, Crystal BnBs do in fact do more damage than Jam Session BnBs. Pretty much any OTG assist allows Vergil to do more damage than Jam Session simply because of that extra set of Round Trip you get off. Crystal itself does more damage than Jam Session. This is like week 1 Vergil knowledge.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Current Dante list is at 10 changes; if the Dante players want changes, argue for the specific change being more important than something else that will get replaced as a result.

Dante:
*Bold can no longer cancel whiffed attacks.
*s.L hitstun increased slightly.
*Level 2 Stinger vertical hitbox increased slightly.
*Helm Breaker no longer has a hitbox behind it.
*Devil Trigger invincibility frames removed.
*c.L startup reduced to 7 frames.
*Fireworks regains piercing ability.
*Knockback reduced on Dante&#8217;s normals; s.LM anti-air chains consistently.
*Jam Session pushback decreased slightly.
*Drive now hyper cancelable during startup.

Assists: Weasel Shot, Jam Session, Hysteric

Why did you remove jHHH for the rain and TAC startup? I'm against the bold cancel change. I think Jam Session and Drive change is arbitrary.

 

[Karsticles]

I'd rather have Hysteric over Crystal, but that's just me. I don't like Crystal assist much at all. >_>

Not really. Bold Move takes longer to get into a jump than a normal TK, and it props Dante much higher in the air to the point the vast majority of the cast outside of Sentinel and Nemesis can duck under the Vortex. Additionally, it takes far too long to land, Bold Move, Vortex that anyone can just stick out a normal and whack him before the invincibility starts up.

I've tested all this(with H&H Special Cancel card). The only way it could work is if you like, s.L > Stinger after landing and those are pushblockable so there's no infinite chip setups.

I still feel like a Bold that results in you jumping into the air is a mistake, and you should be punished for it. Being able to cancel it into Air Play or The Hammer seems like a bad idea to me. It also effectively gives Dante a jump-cancel on his normals for more pressure. It's just too big of a buff in practice.

Why should I type out BnBs for a game which has SS for 1 bar? For 2 bars no one is going to be looping with Vergil they will have to go for standard combos maximizing Round Trip and Lunar Phase into Dimension Slash. The only reason Jam Session was viable for Vergil was because despite the high scaling Spiral Swords mitigated it as it allowed Vergil to do high damage even at max scaling. That would not be the case anymore.

And by the way, Crystal BnBs do in fact do more damage than Jam Session BnBs. Pretty much any OTG assist allows Vergil to do more damage than Jam Session simply because of that extra set of Round Trip you get off. Crystal itself does more damage than Jam Session. This is like week 1 Vergil knowledge.

It won't be looped, which is why I said do 1. Of course Crystal will do more damage, but how much more? My hunch is a 20K difference or so at the end; nothing to write home about.

Again though, I'll let the Dante players decide.

 

[DeadPhoenix9065]

Water doesn't really do anything to curb the effects of alcohol, IIRC.

"Steering clear of hangover symptoms is simple: Step away from the bottle. Also, don't forget to drink plenty of water, since alcohol triggers the kidneys to release fluid, dehydrating the body and ushering in a hangover."
http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-shows/m...eer-in-clear-beer-and-liquor-never-sicker.htm

 

[SolarPowered]

I'd love to add a 4th assist to everyone in the game. I mean, hell, why not? That would create more team variety than almost anything else we could do.

This is a patch/update, not a new game.

 

["God's Beard!"]

We have 10 changes, and no Dante player mashes H enough to do accidental rain dances, and I've never seen him have problems TACing. If you think they're very relevant, do just like what I suggested of Frantic and Azure - argue that each of those changes is more important than something up there. I'd like to get a community consensus. I pulled 10 that I thought were the most important from all lists.

You can't double tap jH links or rain activates and you can't TAC period after halfway through a combo.

I'll go through everyone's changes but I have to leave for a while.

 

[Frantic]

*Bold can no longer cancel whiffed attacks.

Just remove the ability to block after Bold Move. This removes a lot of Dante's pressure and frame trap game and ultimately makes him a much stiffer character on the offense. Don't like it.

*Level 2 Stinger vertical hitbox increased slightly.

Doesn't need it. It's already got a tall enough vertical hitbox.

*Knockback reduced on Dante&#8217;s normals; s.LM anti-air chains consistently.

I'm probably the only one, but I actually like the knockback on Dante's normals. It means people who pushblock are put even further away, which is what Dante wants in a lot of cases.

Spoiler

Plus it helps prevent easy mode combos.

I still feel like a Bold that results in you jumping into the air is a mistake, and you should be punished for it. Being able to cancel it into Air Play or The Hammer seems like a bad idea to me. It also effectively gives Dante a jump-cancel on his normals for more pressure. It's just too big of a buff in practice.

Heh, well, when I made the list it was the only buff on there that I knew was technically 'too good'. I just wanted to see what people thought of it!

Oh, and I remembered another thing I wanted to put on my list.

[+] s.L now chainable into cr.L(this is mainly to help Dante combat against upback since cr.M is generally too slow/not active enough)

Also, don't listen to God's Beard.

 

[Dahbomb]

If all of the Dante players on this board unanimously prefer Crystal over Hystic, I'll change it back.

Well it's really the Vergil players who benefit from Crystal lol.

Doesn't need it. It's already got a tall enough vertical hitbox.

Was about to say this. The vertical hit box on Dante's Stinger trumps Vergil's Stinger... by a good amount in fact. A safe poke like that shouldn't even have that much vertical range.

 

[kirblar]

Well it's really the Vergil players who benefit from Crystal lol.

How many Dante players weren't Vergil players? Let's be honest here.

 

[Professor Beef]

Also, don't listen to God's Beard.

I thought everyone knew that. ;3

 

[Dahbomb]

How many Dante players weren't Vergil players? Let's be honest here.

It's actually the opposite. A lot of Vergil players used to be Dante players in Vanilla.

 

[Karsticles]

Just remove the ability to block after Bold Move. This removes a lot of Dante's pressure and frame trap game and ultimately makes him a much stiffer character on the offense. Don't like it.

Yeah, he has to think about the normals he throws out there.

Doesn't need it. It's already got a tall enough vertical hitbox.

If all Dante players concur, I will remove this. I just see everyone dropping shot loops...consistently.

I'm probably the only one, but I actually like the knockback on Dante's normals. It means people who pushblock are put even further away, which is what Dante wants.

Spoiler

Plus it helps prevent easy mode combos.

Others: thoughts on this?

Heh, well, when I made the list it was the only buff on there that I knew was technically 'too good'. I just wanted to see what people thought of it!

Oh, and I remembered another thing I wanted to put on my list.

[+] s.L now chainable into cr.L(this is mainly to help Dante combat against upback since cr.M is generally too slow/not active enough)

Also, don't listen to God's Beard.

I trust that you and GB will talk it out.

s.L doesn't go into c.L? I thought it did...or maybe it's c.L that goes into s.L?

Was about to say this. The vertical hit box on Dante's Stinger trumps Vergil's Stinger... by a good amount in fact. A safe poke like that shouldn't even have that much vertical range.

Stinger Lvl 2, not Stinger. They're different in the game's coding.

 

[kirblar]

It's actually the opposite. A lot of Vergil players used to be Dante players in Vanilla.

Oh, I meant more that X/Dante/Vergil or Dante/Vergil/X was a very popular shell.

 

[Dahbomb]

If you are listing "LMH" lands consistently then you don't need to add st.L needs more hit stun. I feel that's a redundant listing of changelog... the whole point of st.L needing more hit stun so that it can properly chain.

I am also surprised no one listed any changes for Multilock. Now how about having a fully charged version of that for an assist...

On Chris I want the following:

*Flamethrower damage reduced to 120K total
*Ability to cancel Grenade hyper early, in between the individual shots.
*Prone stance special and hyper cancelable
*One hit of super armor on Combination Punch H


I would still like at least one basic gun shot (just the pistol shot even) that fired straight across but that would require a new animation so I am not recommending it.

On the whole note of changing his assist to Flamethrower.... it would be too strong for it to have upper body invincibility it would basically be a Tron assist but with more lock down and chip on block. It's not a reversal move, it's not supposed to be. If you want a reversal assist on Chris, give Combination Punch H assist armor on start up or something.

 

[Frantic]

Yeah, he has to think about the normals he throws out there.

Well, when you have slow normals, it's good to have something to counter act them! Plus, Bold Move is pretty easily punished in most cases. You can't ever Bold Move a normal and airdash forward j.H against someone good. It just gets you airthrown or anti-aired. You have to airdash back for the space, but it opens up said pressure and frame traps. *shrug*

If all Dante players concur, I will remove this. I just see everyone dropping shot loops...consistently.

That has more to do with people not recognizing combo positioning and going into Stinger accordingly. Characters have to be juggled on certain spots of the Clay Pigeon to get Stinger connect, and once you recognize that it becomes easy to connect it. At least for me. The hard part, for me, is actually timing the launch > Clay Pigeon part. lol.

Also have to be careful about the heavier characters, but that's something else entirely.

Plus I think it has something to do with startup/active frames more than hitbox.

s.L doesn't go into c.L? I thought it did...or maybe it's c.L that goes into s.L?

cr.L goes into s.L right now.

 

[Renegade_Civil-War]

Something like this is far too grand for the scope of just a patch though. Wait for Uncanny Marvel vs. Capcom 3 or MvC4 before we go there.

This is a patch/update, not a new game.

Yeah, but we're recommending assist changes, replacements, and new assists all over the place.


By the way guys... just to let you know. Capcom isn't going to crowd source balance suggestions and reassemble the Marvel team together to implement them... and then just...


Not charge you for them?


If this happens and they actually LISTEN to us, it'll be a full fledged paid update, just like Ultra SF4.

They only fixed AE for free because it was so damn busted they had to, and they just charged 15 for AE.

By the time they get around to doing this, UMVC3 will have been around for 2.5 years, and well aged for an update.

And when they charge you for it, they HAVE to add content to convince casuals that it's worth picking up. That's modes, characters, stages, costumes, whatever.


So, I'd go into this thinking that it'll be more than just "hey, patch the infinites, tweak some frame data, done"

Sure, Marvel liscense issues exist, but none of us know where those negotiations are.