-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
Karsticles
Member
Current Dante changes:
Dante:
*Bold can no longer cancel whiffed attacks.
*Helm Breaker no longer has a hitbox behind it.
*Devil Trigger invincibility frames removed.
*c.L startup reduced to 7 frames.
*Fireworks regains piercing ability.
*Knockback reduced on Dante’s normals; s.LM anti-air chains consistently.
*Jam Session pushback decreased slightly.
*Drive now hyper cancelable during startup.
Assists: Weasel Shot, Jam Session, Hysteric
There are two nerfs Frantic offered that I haven't included, and the issue of Hysteric vs. Crystal remains to be resolved.
Also, I put one change that I forgot in Shuma-Gorath's list:
Shuma-Gorath:
*Air dash movement extended to 8 directions; distance increased by 50%; total time to completion unaltered; 3 air dashes per jump.
*Mytic Stare and Mystic Ray chargeup time reduced to 30 frames.
*Aerial normals are dash-cancelable.
*Mystic Smash hitbox increased considerably.
*j.S is now special cancelable, and characters knocked down by it during air series land next to Shuma-Gorath instead of far away.
*Mystic Stare’s recovery reduced by 15 frames across the board; assist now shares the point version’s functionality.
*Mystic Ray assist startup reduced to 47 frames.
*Strange Gaze now turns opponents to stone for 90 frames; aerial opponents fall to the ground; usable once per combo.
*Shuma-Gorath's hitbox is now more consistent during combos.
Assists: Mystic Ray H, Mystic Stare H, Strange Gaze
Dante:
*Bold can no longer cancel whiffed attacks.
*Helm Breaker no longer has a hitbox behind it.
*Devil Trigger invincibility frames removed.
*c.L startup reduced to 7 frames.
*Fireworks regains piercing ability.
*Knockback reduced on Dante’s normals; s.LM anti-air chains consistently.
*Jam Session pushback decreased slightly.
*Drive now hyper cancelable during startup.
Assists: Weasel Shot, Jam Session, Hysteric
There are two nerfs Frantic offered that I haven't included, and the issue of Hysteric vs. Crystal remains to be resolved.
While I would love this, I doubt it will happen.
Also, I put one change that I forgot in Shuma-Gorath's list:
Shuma-Gorath:
*Air dash movement extended to 8 directions; distance increased by 50%; total time to completion unaltered; 3 air dashes per jump.
*Mytic Stare and Mystic Ray chargeup time reduced to 30 frames.
*Aerial normals are dash-cancelable.
*Mystic Smash hitbox increased considerably.
*j.S is now special cancelable, and characters knocked down by it during air series land next to Shuma-Gorath instead of far away.
*Mystic Stare’s recovery reduced by 15 frames across the board; assist now shares the point version’s functionality.
*Mystic Ray assist startup reduced to 47 frames.
*Strange Gaze now turns opponents to stone for 90 frames; aerial opponents fall to the ground; usable once per combo.
*Shuma-Gorath's hitbox is now more consistent during combos.
Assists: Mystic Ray H, Mystic Stare H, Strange Gaze
I used to have issues with this, but I've come to accept it. The way hitstun currently works doesn't really allow for Dante easy-mode combos anyway, so I don't think it makes a big change for anyone that actually plays Dante right now. It just makes it easier for people to pick up and play him.
I don't see any problem with changing Crystal assist to Hysteric. I never used either, and won't in a future update, but they both have different levels of utility. I don't think it makes a big difference either way, as there weren't people clamoring for a Hysteric assist, and Crystal was getting moderate use.
Agree with this. Bold Move really isn't a get of out jail free card in most situations.
Posting for new page:
On Chris I want the following:
*Flamethrower damage reduced to 120K total
*Ability to cancel Grenade hyper early, in between the individual shots.
*Prone stance special and hyper cancelable
*One hit of super armor on Combination Punch H
I would still like at least one basic gun shot (just the pistol shot even) that fired straight across but that would require a new animation so I am not recommending it.
On the whole note of changing his assist to Flamethrower.... it would be too strong for it to have upper body invincibility it would basically be a Tron assist but with more lock down and chip on block. It's not a reversal move, it's not supposed to be. If you want a reversal assist on Chris, give Combination Punch H assist armor on start up or something.
Where the hell is God's Beard? He listed Shuma as one of his characters. Also Shuma's scaling need to be nerfed from 25% to 15% across the board especially if you plan to him 8 way dash and dash cancellable normals in the air. He was going to need a damage nerf anyway.
On Chris I want the following:
*Flamethrower damage reduced to 120K total
*Ability to cancel Grenade hyper early, in between the individual shots.
*Prone stance special and hyper cancelable
*One hit of super armor on Combination Punch H
I would still like at least one basic gun shot (just the pistol shot even) that fired straight across but that would require a new animation so I am not recommending it.
On the whole note of changing his assist to Flamethrower.... it would be too strong for it to have upper body invincibility it would basically be a Tron assist but with more lock down and chip on block. It's not a reversal move, it's not supposed to be. If you want a reversal assist on Chris, give Combination Punch H assist armor on start up or something.
Shuma Gorath is Magneto now? WTF... I thought we weren't doing character reworks.
Where the hell is God's Beard? He listed Shuma as one of his characters. Also Shuma's scaling need to be nerfed from 25% to 15% across the board especially if you plan to him 8 way dash and dash cancellable normals in the air. He was going to need a damage nerf anyway.
He can technically already do that, can't he? It's jump cancelable, which in turn is special cancelable.
You can't cancel it from the ground though. I want to shoot someone in the foot then cancel into Magnum immediately.
How come now one besides me is contesting those Shuma changes? Karst just made Shuma a Magneto type character and no one is giving a shit.
- Already put in my two cents regarding the "Bold not canceling whiffed attacks", but to reiterate it makes the move kinda worthless outside of BC Volcano combos and there are other ways to take care of the issue you are aiming for in Bold Blocking.
- s.L receiving a hitstun buff leads to the "taking you for a ride from a s.L" thing people hated in Vanilla. I actually came up with my suggestion after thinking about one of Frantic's old thoughts on the matter and Darksim's old comments about why you couldn't just buff his hitstun to solve that button's major issues. Making the person work and be aware of their situation/opportunities (i.e. s.LM-etc. works as anti-air on counter hit) promotes smarter play and giving Dante the ability to combo from it is still better than nothing.
- Lvl. 2 Stinger buff isn't that big a deal really. It's not terribly hard at current. I'd prefer to see something else like the Fireworks pickups getting this buff position over it.
- Helm Breaker fixes are something I neglected to mention. Good call.
- Agreed on DT invincibility for both DTs actually.
- c.L startup being 7 frames isn't much better than the current 8. Ideally, it'd be 5 frames and non-linkable so he has something that while not the epitome of fast, would allow for him to establish himself, but 6 frames is a very happy medium, especially given all he already has.
- Oh haha, the Fireworks thing was incorporated in this list already. OK then, replace the Stinger Lv.2 buff with the "Fixed issue with c.L not hitting certain floating opponents"
- Reduction in Dante's knockback should also come with a further detail - it has to be between Vanilla and Ultimate Dante's values. Tread too close to Vanilla and he gets guaranteed easy mode conversions from anything. Too close to Ultimate and while functional, it leads to funky irregularities that put people off from playing him. Although in this post I've mentioned my thoughts on s.LM being guaranteed, I really don't have a strong reason to go against it outside of consideration of s.L's attack angle and knowing how people didn't like that Dante could get a lot started from that. Well, maybe considering he's not putting out a ton of damage I could change my mind on this.
- I feel like this assist is going to see a lot more air time in a post Missiles environment and it's going to need a nerf either in how fast it starts up or the push back with frame advantage for the point character it generates. I don't have the knowledge necessary to suggest one or the other, but the push back might be the better of the two potential nerfs.
- This is a cool buff. Not sure if it's something worth a whole spot, but it's a cool one nonetheless. lways found it weird how you had to resolve yourself to an entire portion of the entire Drive animation (and certain parts of Million Stabs' in a lesser extent) before doing anything out of it.
And that's that.
Random thought: How would everyone feel if I killed my scaling buff but asked for Drive to travel faster across the screen?
SolarPowered
Member
I can't be the only one who feels his bowels moving when looking at some of the stuff in here, right?
I'm envisioning this character and I don't ever want to fight him.
Well, I mean the pre-jump frames are special cancelable, I think. I don't know about that change... does the current prone shot cause enough hitstun to combo into Magnum with this change?
I am also surprised no one listed any changes for Multilock. Now how about having a fully charged version of that for an assist...
I almost went full Koryu and tried to buff Multilock into a psuedo-Buster, but man I'd hate myself for unleashing that (and all of the following "ugh Dante players" salt) into the world. :lol
Thank god I am not the only person who thought this.
Probably not but it would still be useful.
I honestly thing the best buff to Shuma would be to improve his ground dash slightly so that when you plink dash it's pretty fast. His back dash is already pretty fast, would be nice if his forward dash matched up.
Karsticles
Member
Hahahaha.
I'm not sure about Prone Position being cancelable into specials/hypers; what about jump-cancelable?
I don't see why Combination Punch needs armor. It doesn't make sense on the character. Chris is frail and needs his guns. He can't plow through Hulk's s.H or Haggar's Pipe.
It's not holding Flamethrower for the entire duration. It's just the minimum spit. I will clarify that.
Shuma-Gorath CANNOT be fixed in his current state. This does not involve any animation changes - he can use the same animation he uses already going in the other 6 directions.
I'll make the change to his scaling on his specials and normals, but his hypers already do poor damage. Most of his damage comes from his specials. Sound good?
GB said he had to step out.
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
Shuma's never had an 8 way AD. Capcom has been shying away from 8way AD gameplay as it is...
I think giving one to shuma is nuts. He can already use mystic smash as aerial movement/offense quite well.
Adding Shuma mystic stare balls to other characters via assist is fucking asking for trouble.
My changes were to kill the "Shuma Pose", and to
lenghten hard knockdown time after chaos dimension to allow a combo after it.
I think giving one to shuma is nuts. He can already use mystic smash as aerial movement/offense quite well.
Adding Shuma mystic stare balls to other characters via assist is fucking asking for trouble.
My changes were to kill the "Shuma Pose", and to
lenghten hard knockdown time after chaos dimension to allow a combo after it.
It's an arbitrary difference between Dante and the rest of the cast. He should be able to anti-air with s.L and capitalize off of it. It's not like his s.L is super fast, even with the proposed changes to it. Even its hitbox is wonky.
Well, my concern was that he WOULD be able to get a Magnum shot off of it instead of just a projectile blockstring. Fullscreen prone gunshot leading into 400,000 damage is not cool.
It's already jump cancelable.
Chris is FRAIL? Over 1 million health, big body damage? Dude PUNCHED A GOD DAMN BOULDER!!!! He's like a big body zoner in the game. Besides Combination punch is absolutely shit in the neutral and outside of combos, this just gives it extra utility. Also makes it a usable assist if you plan to go that route.
It's not about just being within animation changes.. I can give Chun Li an 8 way air dash too doesn't mean I am going to. For characters who cannot be fixed without reworks you have to do the best you can. Stuff like improving Mystic Smash (hit stun and hit box), improved ground and air dash, better mid screen combos are all acceptable but when you start turning an air dash only character into a tri dash character that qualifies as a rework because you are effectively changing the classification on the character. Technically speaking, EVERY character in the game can get an air dash and double jump doesn't mean we should give them all one.
Karsticles
Member
Shuma-Gorath:
*Air dash movement extended to 8 directions; distance increased by 50%; total time to completion unaltered; 3 air dashes per jump.
*Mytic Stare and Mystic Ray chargeup time reduced to 30 frames.
*Mystic Smash hitbox increased considerably.
*j.S is now special cancelable, and characters knocked down by it during air series land next to Shuma-Gorath instead of far away.
*Mystic Stare’s recovery reduced by 15 frames across the board; assist now shares the point version’s functionality.
*Mystic Ray assist startup reduced to 47 frames.
*Strange Gaze now turns opponents to stone for 90 frames; aerial opponents fall to the ground; usable once per combo.
*Shuma-Gorath's hitbox is now more consistent during combos.
*Minimum damage scaling on normals and specials reduced to 15%.
Chris:
*Flamethrower vertical hitbox increased, slight upper body invincibility.
*Grenade fires now dim significantly when the active frames have finished.
*Flame Thrower damage reduced to 120,000 maximum.
*s.S now cancels Chris’ Grenade Launcher and Satellite Laser hypers.
*Prone Position now cancelable (jump cancelable? Special?; arguable)
*Combination Punch H has one hit of armor from frames 5-12.
Assists: Gun Fire M, Grenade Toss H, Flamethrower
*Air dash movement extended to 8 directions; distance increased by 50%; total time to completion unaltered; 3 air dashes per jump.
*Mytic Stare and Mystic Ray chargeup time reduced to 30 frames.
*Mystic Smash hitbox increased considerably.
*j.S is now special cancelable, and characters knocked down by it during air series land next to Shuma-Gorath instead of far away.
*Mystic Stare’s recovery reduced by 15 frames across the board; assist now shares the point version’s functionality.
*Mystic Ray assist startup reduced to 47 frames.
*Strange Gaze now turns opponents to stone for 90 frames; aerial opponents fall to the ground; usable once per combo.
*Shuma-Gorath's hitbox is now more consistent during combos.
*Minimum damage scaling on normals and specials reduced to 15%.
Chris:
*Flamethrower vertical hitbox increased, slight upper body invincibility.
*Grenade fires now dim significantly when the active frames have finished.
*Flame Thrower damage reduced to 120,000 maximum.
*s.S now cancels Chris’ Grenade Launcher and Satellite Laser hypers.
*Prone Position now cancelable (jump cancelable? Special?; arguable)
*Combination Punch H has one hit of armor from frames 5-12.
Assists: Gun Fire M, Grenade Toss H, Flamethrower
Please, just stop. -_-
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rWwww_r0oA
Just watch this guys shuma for 10 minutes.
He's obviously not as bad as ANY of us thought. Why blow him up and make him Magneto?
Yeah, you need coverage when mystic smashing... but so does nova or magneto.
Especially when he can already kill solo no xfactor with 2 meters... and has an unblockable level 3 super?
Karsticles
Member
I've seen those videos. It's old stuff. I am a Shuma-Gorath player. I know what he is capable of. Mystic Smash is ass.
You know what, you're right. Fixing my list:
I dropped the scaling buff and also made official note of the Helm Splitter change since system changes should already take care of the Devil Triggers bonus stacking when in X-Factor modes. I also settled on 5 frames for c.L while taking away it's ability to chain which I guess would have also been dealt with by the "no mashing jab" thing in system changes, but who really mashed any of Dante's jabs? :lol
That being said, better list? Worst list? What's GAF's thoughts?
And 3 air dashes in the air without going into a flight mode or a power up hyper (Dante's DT) is CHEAP as hell. He's going to get above you do dash forward, dash back then dash forward into a normal and no way in hell you are going to block that shit.... people can't block Dante's double dash.
I know I'm no committee member, but my proposed 10-only change list for Dante.
[+] s.L can now once again combo into s.M as a true anti-air.
[+] j.L can now properly combo into j.M during a normal jump
[+] cr.M pushback on hit reduced to vanilla levels.
[+] Drive now hyper cancelable during startup.
[+] Fireworks now pierces, as per vanilla.
[+] Stinger can be canceled into Million Stabs during frames 1-10 of recovery on block or hit.
[-] No longer able to block during Bold Move's startup frames.
[-] Invincibility removed on Devil Trigger startup.
[-] Jam Session pushes back less on block.
I have one spot open, and I basically just want to clarify something. The hitbox on Helm Breaker, do you mean remove the startup hitbox behind him, or as he's descending? Because, technically he doesn't have a hitbox behind him as he's descending. The only reason it hits behind him in some cases is because of the retarded way hurtboxes work and grow as they move. Just want some clarification.
[+] s.L can now once again combo into s.M as a true anti-air.
[+] j.L can now properly combo into j.M during a normal jump
[+] cr.M pushback on hit reduced to vanilla levels.
[+] Drive now hyper cancelable during startup.
[+] Fireworks now pierces, as per vanilla.
[+] Stinger can be canceled into Million Stabs during frames 1-10 of recovery on block or hit.
[-] No longer able to block during Bold Move's startup frames.
[-] Invincibility removed on Devil Trigger startup.
[-] Jam Session pushes back less on block.
I have one spot open, and I basically just want to clarify something. The hitbox on Helm Breaker, do you mean remove the startup hitbox behind him, or as he's descending? Because, technically he doesn't have a hitbox behind him as he's descending. The only reason it hits behind him in some cases is because of the retarded way hurtboxes work and grow as they move. Just want some clarification.
I guess I question the utility to this change. Is a faster projectile better in this case? There's some use for having a slow moving projectile across the screen. I'm just not certain, since I don't use Drive quite as much as I could. How much projectile durability does it have?
This thread is moved by hype and it's going fast! Damn, I'm not being able to follow it, sadly, but I like the She-Hulk changes, and you guys are making Dark Phoenix scarier than she was in vanilla....giving her a hyper that kills her makes no sense IMO, kinda breaks the whole lore, where she's always trying to not became Dark
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
Okay, it's not the best, but its what he's got.
I'm just saying there's just no way Capcom's gonna give him an 8Way AD when they wouldn't give strange a 2 way AD, and nerfed everyone elses 8WAD.
Yeah, some of my suggestions were nutty, but that's why we crowd source this stuff... so someone else can come along and say:
"whoa, that's kinda crazy, dude"
Everything else is fine (except maybe mystic smash balls... but w/e. Stilll may not be better than Mystic Ray)
IDGAF cause if I have to charge to get my specials to come out, I deserve to be Magneto level.
SolarKnight
Member
While on this subject, I want to preemptively say I want her assists changed to
-Glaive qcf+M (could get some use as an AA)
-Cold Star M
-Bloom that works just like Morrigan's because right now it's just an invitation to get her killed.
Also, I'll trade RR's air series fix for either better base damage or scaling.
Only thing I have to contribute to the current 4 is to make Shuma's pose after supets cancellable because that's just stupid right now, I mean, even Wright can cancel his needless animations that are just for show.
SolarPowered
Member
Can we label things a "+" or "-" the way Azure and Frantic are doing it? If this is getting sent off to Capcom we should make it as straightforward as possible. It's not like we're sending this stuff to Mike Z or Ed Boon. It's gotta get translated and the nature of the change won't always be clear even with a good translator. I'd like to let them know when they're looking at a nerf or a buff.
I'll distract him. You go fetch the straight jacket.
Yeah, that confused me as well. You could potentially shave off some of the hitbox from the hilt of Rebellion, which would lead to fewer instances of being hit from the backend.
I don't like the idea of removing the swinging arc hitbox from the top of Helm Breaker. I liked using it against Zeros. It's not that absurd given the startup.
Karsticles
Member
I want all of the Dante players in this thread to reach an agreement on his changes for approval. Don't try to convince me - I don't know which of those changes is the most important. If all the Dante players agree, I'll go along with it. So tear each other up and figure out what's needed.
Shuma-Gorath:
*Air dash movement extended to 8 directions; distance increased by 35%; total time to completion unaltered; 3 air dashes per jump.
*Mytic Stare and Mystic Ray chargeup time reduced to 30 frames.
*Mystic Smash hitbox increased considerably.
*j.S is now special cancelable, and characters knocked down by it during air series land next to Shuma-Gorath instead of far away.
*Mystic Stare’s recovery reduced by 15 frames across the board; assist now shares the point version’s functionality.
*Mystic Ray recovery reduced by 10 frames across the board; assist startup reduced to 47 frames.
*Strange Gaze now turns opponents to stone for 90 frames; aerial opponents fall to the ground; usable once per combo.
*Shuma-Gorath's hitbox is now more consistent during combos.
*Minimum damage scaling on normals and specials reduced to 15%.
Also, I turned Hsien-ko into a killing machine that will make Wolverine wet his pants. Wait and see.
At the very least, Shuma-Gorath needs some serious mobility buffs. Just making his dashes faster won't cut it. He needs to be able to come in at odd angles because of how his attacks work.
Shuma-Gorath's j.M is not like Magneto's j.H, and his air dash is not that fast; I'm actually going to reduce it to 35% distance increase. There's no way he'll be anything like Magneto. I also removed the dash-cancelable normals. That was a relic when I was trying to figure out how to give him more consistent combos. I decided to change how j.S works in an air series instead.
Shuma-Gorath:
*Air dash movement extended to 8 directions; distance increased by 35%; total time to completion unaltered; 3 air dashes per jump.
*Mytic Stare and Mystic Ray chargeup time reduced to 30 frames.
*Mystic Smash hitbox increased considerably.
*j.S is now special cancelable, and characters knocked down by it during air series land next to Shuma-Gorath instead of far away.
*Mystic Stare’s recovery reduced by 15 frames across the board; assist now shares the point version’s functionality.
*Mystic Ray recovery reduced by 10 frames across the board; assist startup reduced to 47 frames.
*Strange Gaze now turns opponents to stone for 90 frames; aerial opponents fall to the ground; usable once per combo.
*Shuma-Gorath's hitbox is now more consistent during combos.
*Minimum damage scaling on normals and specials reduced to 15%.
Marvel didn't want Dr. Strange to have an air dash. I plan to respect that, and won't be giving him one either.
The only problem with the +/- stuff is that some changes are a mix of buffs and nerfs. Otherwise I would be for it.
Also, I turned Hsien-ko into a killing machine that will make Wolverine wet his pants. Wait and see.
At the very least, Shuma-Gorath needs some serious mobility buffs. Just making his dashes faster won't cut it. He needs to be able to come in at odd angles because of how his attacks work.
I was summoned for the Dante
I don't see why he needs to lose bold cancel on whiff, bold move still has a a lot of recovery after he jumps and is basically never used on whiff as is when you could cancel into a special instead. Helm Breaker doesn't have a hitbox behind him, unless you mean on startup, which I don't think is nerf worthy or anything (it's most practically use is probably hitting another Dante out of Air Trick). I also don't think he needs the level 2 Stinger buff either.
So, I would give Dante the vanilla base hitstun/hsd values on his normals, and that would basically be it.
Since he does no damage late in combos anyway he could get soft knockdown on Cold Shower back too, but he still would do no damage so whatever.
I don't see why he needs to lose bold cancel on whiff, bold move still has a a lot of recovery after he jumps and is basically never used on whiff as is when you could cancel into a special instead. Helm Breaker doesn't have a hitbox behind him, unless you mean on startup, which I don't think is nerf worthy or anything (it's most practically use is probably hitting another Dante out of Air Trick). I also don't think he needs the level 2 Stinger buff either.
So, I would give Dante the vanilla base hitstun/hsd values on his normals, and that would basically be it.
Since he does no damage late in combos anyway he could get soft knockdown on Cold Shower back too, but he still would do no damage so whatever.
biosnake20
Member
Raise Dante's special move scaling to 8%.
Karsticles
Member
Current Dante changelist looks like this:
Dante:
*Bold can no longer be block canceled during its initial frames
*Helm Breaker’s hitbox reduced so that it no longer hits characters behind Dante.
*Devil Trigger invincibility frames removed.
*c.L startup reduced to 7 frames.
*Fireworks regains piercing ability.
*Knockback reduced on Dante’s normals; s.LM anti-air chains consistently.
*Jam Session pushback decreased slightly.
*Drive now hyper cancelable during startup.
*s.L now chains into c.L.
Assists: Weasel Shot, Jam Session, Hysteric
Hash it out with Frantic, Azure, and GuardianE to figure out what the final version should look like.
And Magneto does not have a triple air dash. No one has it in the game as far as I can tell, you need to either get into a flight mode or Dante's DT (which still gives you only double dash) or if you include Rocket Raccoon's Skates as "dashing". It doesn't matter what kind of normals you have when you can get above someone and triple dash around them for mix ups.
At the bare minimum you need to do something about triple air dashing because that is absurd.
Professor Beef
Banned
3 dashes per jump for Shuma. :lol :lol :lol
Karsticles
Member
Not only is Rocket Skates an air dash, we made it cancelable into j.S, so he can do the same thing. No one thought it was crazy then.
Magneto and Shuma-Gorath are different characters, and this would be fine under the context of Shuma-Gorath's moveset. He has a slow air dash, so instead of making it really fast like Magneto or Storm with high priority attacks like j.H and j.S, we give him maneuverability. You act like Shuma-Gorath can just air dash around freely, but this is not Magneto, again. He can't just plink dash across the screen at crazy speeds. His air dash is slow and vulnerable. He'll likely need to cancel into j.M early to protect himself during the approach.
SolarKnight
Member
I'll let Karst keep the triple air dash if he gives me at least double air Rocket Skates on RR :v
...But yeah that's too unrealistic and ridiculous of a change.
...But yeah that's too unrealistic and ridiculous of a change.
Karsticles
Member
Already happened.
[+] s.L can now once again combo into s.M as a true anti-air.
[+] j.L can now properly combo into j.M during a normal jump
[+] cr.M pushback on hit reduced to vanilla levels. Active frames increased to 3 frames, up from 2.
[+] Drive now hyper cancelable during startup.
[+] Fireworks now pierces, as per vanilla.
[+] s.L now chainable into cr.L
[-] No longer able to block during Bold Move's startup frames.
[-] Invincibility removed on Devil Trigger startup.
[-] Jam Session pushes back less on block as an assist.
[-] Reduced/removed hitbox on the hilt of j.S(Helm Breaker) to prevent hits behind him.
Okay, that's my proposed list. Some of them are just things that irritate me(namely number two and three), so I'm willing to change some shit.
I'd be fine with vanilla hitstun values on his normals if the Ultimate pushback is retained(outside of cr.M, since using that normal as a footsie is a pain in the ass with the pushback)
[+] j.L can now properly combo into j.M during a normal jump
[+] cr.M pushback on hit reduced to vanilla levels. Active frames increased to 3 frames, up from 2.
[+] Drive now hyper cancelable during startup.
[+] Fireworks now pierces, as per vanilla.
[+] s.L now chainable into cr.L
[-] No longer able to block during Bold Move's startup frames.
[-] Invincibility removed on Devil Trigger startup.
[-] Jam Session pushes back less on block as an assist.
[-] Reduced/removed hitbox on the hilt of j.S(Helm Breaker) to prevent hits behind him.
Okay, that's my proposed list. Some of them are just things that irritate me(namely number two and three), so I'm willing to change some shit.
I'd be fine with vanilla hitstun values on his normals if the Ultimate pushback is retained(outside of cr.M, since using that normal as a footsie is a pain in the ass with the pushback)
SolarPowered
Member
Then just label them "+/-". That should get the point across well enough.
I think c.L deserves to be a little quicker. I agree with Azure that a 5 or 6 frame c.L would be fair. c.L doesn't reach that far. I can understand Capcom wanting slower normals on standing, but c.L doesn't have that reach. I don't know what the others think, but those are my two cents. I'm not opposed to the 7 frame startup, I just don't think it changes much for him. 6 frames is still slow enough to get beaten by most of the cast, but it's not painfully slow like it is now.
As long as that Helm Breaker change is to slightly tweak that downward hitbubble and not the swing arc, I'm cool with it.
I think point 3 is important. Are you fine with having no changes at all to damage scaling? I'm okay with it as long as other characters are toned down.
Karsticles
Member
Darksim, GuardianE, and Azure: please agree with this list or argue for changes.
K, I'll go back and mess with it a bit later on.
SolarKnight
Member
I'm only seeing being able to cancel them into jS as the only change to skates and I don't see what that has to with what I said.
Karsticles
Member
You mean he is always limited to 1 Rocket Skate in the air no matter what?
I learned something new.
Well, it's more or less been said other characters are being toned down. We've already toned down Zero considerably, so yes, I'm fine with it. More than Dante doing damage, I want other characters to be doing damage in the same range as him.
I considered giving Dante a faster cr.L, but at the same time I don't think it'd really help him any. All it'd really do is make his pressure better, imo.
I have 3 requests for Dante:
- I hate when rain storm (mashing H in the air) comes out when I am doing a boxed air dash crossup with Dante. I dash with M+H (pad) and it infuriating when it happens. Change it to a motion or something.
- I would like them to make weasel shot a little bit easier to come out.
- I want his A back and that his magic series connects on the ground like a normal character.
- I hate when rain storm (mashing H in the air) comes out when I am doing a boxed air dash crossup with Dante. I dash with M+H (pad) and it infuriating when it happens. Change it to a motion or something.
- I would like them to make weasel shot a little bit easier to come out.
- I want his A back and that his magic series connects on the ground like a normal character.
I was just about to point out the limitation on Rocket Skates before I was beaten.
Triple dash is untested in the game... I don't care how bad a character is giving someone a tool like that is bound to lead to crazy shit.
If you are worried about Shuma not being able to plink dash, improve his forward ground dash so that with plink dashing he covers distance fast. That is a much more manageable and realistic change than giving him triple air dashes.
The best I can agree to is 8 way air dash, improved air and ground dash and dash cancelable normals in the air. No triple dash. The rest of the buffs can remain on the character and I will even add in extra hit stun for Mystic Smash so that it's easier to confirm combos when you get in with it. Hell give it stagger on counter hit for all I care. Mystic Smash is more iconic to Shuma Gorath than air dashing around trying to be a fly character.
Really that's all it's for. Currently, c.L is just a pitifully weak opener. I'm fine with your changes if a 6 frame c.L is added. What is Vergil's current c.L with the proposed changes?
No changes are being made to Vergil's cr.L. He is going to have enough nerfs as it is. Vergil st.L is 6 frames and cr.L is 5 frames.
Here's my recommended changes for Shuma (essentially same as Karst just modified):
+Air dash movement extended to 8 directions; distance increased by 35%; total time to completion unaltered
+Improved speed on ground forward dash, plink dashes allow for very fast ground movement
+Mytic Stare and Mystic Ray chargeup time reduced to 30 frames.
+Mystic Smash hitbox increased considerably, increased hit stun on initial hit
+j.S is now special cancelable, and characters knocked down by it during air series land next to Shuma-Gorath instead of far away.
+Mystic Stare’s recovery reduced by 15 frames across the board; assist now shares the point version’s functionality.
+Mystic Ray recovery reduced by 10 frames across the board; assist startup reduced to 47 frames.
+Strange Gaze now turns opponents to stone for 90 frames; aerial opponents fall to the ground; usable once per combo.
+/-Shuma-Gorath's hitbox is now more consistent during combos.
-Minimum damage scaling on normals and specials reduced to 15% each
Here's my recommended changes for Shuma (essentially same as Karst just modified):
+Air dash movement extended to 8 directions; distance increased by 35%; total time to completion unaltered
+Improved speed on ground forward dash, plink dashes allow for very fast ground movement
+Mytic Stare and Mystic Ray chargeup time reduced to 30 frames.
+Mystic Smash hitbox increased considerably, increased hit stun on initial hit
+j.S is now special cancelable, and characters knocked down by it during air series land next to Shuma-Gorath instead of far away.
+Mystic Stare’s recovery reduced by 15 frames across the board; assist now shares the point version’s functionality.
+Mystic Ray recovery reduced by 10 frames across the board; assist startup reduced to 47 frames.
+Strange Gaze now turns opponents to stone for 90 frames; aerial opponents fall to the ground; usable once per combo.
+/-Shuma-Gorath's hitbox is now more consistent during combos.
-Minimum damage scaling on normals and specials reduced to 15% each