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[TWILT]

Slightly late, but I don't like the Crystal assist change for Hysteric missiles either. I really like the OTG synergy for Vergil and potential meaty set ups for it. Hysteric missiles are bit too slow for my taste and I can't say I care for the poor durability on them , but hey, if the majority of people are really in favor for it...

I'm good with the rest of the changes though.

 

[GuardianE]

No changes are being made to Vergil's cr.L. He is going to have enough nerfs as it is. Vergil st.L is 6 frames and cr.L is 5 frames.

Then I'm fine with either a 5 or 6 frame c.L for Dante. I'll concede to the rest of the group on that.

The rest of the changes are fine. I agree with Frantic's list.

As for the Hysteric/Crystal change, I have no opinion on the matter, really. That OTG assist was important for a lot of teams as they are now, though.

 

[Karsticles]

I was just about to point out the limitation on Rocket Skates before I was beaten.

Triple dash is untested in the game... I don't care how bad a character is giving someone a tool like that is bound to lead to crazy shit.

It just feels...chaos-y. To me, every air dasher has something that makes their aerials really good:

Dante: j.H can cross up and is an OS
Dormammu: aerials cross up very well; j.L, c.L for mix-ups
Magneto: incredible priority; Magnetic Blast to protect approach
Storm: incredible priority; Float to allow her to block at superjump height while moving so she can choose her moment
Nova: j.H can cross up and is an OS
Doom: so...so much, haha
Iron Man: air dash sucks; we'll fix it; at least he has huge j.H normals, though
Thor: Mighty Strike; only armored aerial in the game IIRC
Zero: Buster shot
Firebrand: Bon Voyage
Trish: special-cancelable dive kick
Shuma-Gorath: NOTHING. His aerial normals are garbage.

So we either have to rework his aerial normals to make his air dash meaningful (it's not right now aside from slightly adjusting your Mystic Smash), which would involve reanimating his normals, or we have to rework his air dash in a major way.

If you are worried about Shuma not being able to plink dash, improve his forward ground dash so that with plink dashing he covers distance fast. That is a much more manageable and realistic change than giving him triple air dashes.

We're talking about his air dash. Oh my god do not make me complain about his ground approach.

The best I can agree to is 8 way air dash, improved air and ground dash and dash cancelable normals in the air. No triple dash. The rest of the buffs can remain on the character and I will even add in extra hit stun for Mystic Smash so that it's easier to confirm combos when you get in with it. Hell give it stagger on counter hit for all I care. Mystic Smash is more iconic to Shuma Gorath than air dashing around trying to be a fly character.

I want him to have a little more to him than superjumping into Mystic Smash spam, though. Shuma-Gorath is one of the most linear characters in the game right now. I don't care about his ground dash or cancelable normals. He shouldn't be on the ground unless he's being defensive, and no amount of ground dash buffs will change that because he has no way to open people up on the ground. Without an assist to pin someone, he just has to hope his opponent is dumb. He needs some way to open people up and get in that isn't just Mystic Smash spam. Let's encourage smart play, not buffing his one good move so he can spam it more.

Why is Storm okay with a double air dash, but Shuma-Gorath is not okay with a triple? Why can Flight characters spend a measly 15-20 frames to get infinite air dashes and go all over the place, but Shuma-Gorath, with his slow air dashes and small aerial normals, can't have 3 and no Flight?

+Mystic Smash hitbox increased considerably, increased hit stun on initial hit

Why would I want more hitstun on Mystic Smash's initial hit? It never fails to combo for the rest of its hits.

 

[Dahbomb]

I would also think about increasing the durability on Mystic Ray all across the board. I believe at bare minimum it should be 15 for the H version.

So we either have to rework his aerial normals to make his air dash meaningful (it's not right now aside from slightly adjusting your Mystic Smash), which would involve reanimating his normals, or we have to rework his air dash in a major way.

Then improve the hit box on one of his air normal.

Why is Storm okay with a double air dash, but Shuma-Gorath is not okay with a triple?

I honestly don't know why you even gave it to her. I thought you removed it?

A better ground dash is no joke. Quite a few characters make do without air dashes because they have good ground dashes.

By improving his ground and air dash with improved hit box on Mystic Smash.. he would have 3 approaches. Ground dash, air dash (forward or down/forward air dash) and Mystic Smash. That's more than quite some characters have.

 

[GuardianE]

Have unblockable setups been addressed at all? Specifically, assist+normal setups, not Firebrand or Focus Attack setups.

 

[Karsticles]

Dante Players: give me your final changelist if you all agree.

Here is my suggested compromise:
Shuma-Gorath:
*Air dash movement extended to 8 directions; distance increased by 50% (should it be more?); total time to completion unaltered.
*Mytic Stare and Mystic Ray chargeup time reduced to 30 frames.
*Mystic Smash hitbox increased considerably; startup reduced by 5 frames across the board.
*j.S is now special cancelable, and characters knocked down by it during air series land next to Shuma-Gorath instead of far away.
*Mystic Stare’s recovery reduced by 15 frames across the board; assist now shares the point version’s functionality.
*Mystic Ray recovery reduced by 10 frames across the board; durability changed to 5x1 for L version, 10x1 for M version, 15x1 for H version; assist startup reduced to 47 frames.
*Strange Gaze now turns opponents to stone for 90 frames; aerial opponents fall to the ground; usable once per combo.
*Shuma-Gorath's hitbox is now more consistent during combos.
*Minimum damage scaling on normals and specials reduced to 15%.
*j.M hitbox increased significantly.

Assists: Mystic Ray H, Mystic Stare H, Strange Gaze

Have unblockable setups been addressed at all? Specifically, assist+normal setups, not Firebrand or Focus Attack setups.

Do you mean Guard Breaks? Otherwise I'm not sure what you are referring to.

 

[Dahbomb]

I say the final change to Shuma is to increase durability on Mystic Ray across the board. H version should have 15 durability points total.

And of course improve ground dash.

 

[GuardianE]

Do you mean Guard Breaks? Otherwise I'm not sure what you are referring to.

High/low unblockables, such as GreenAce's Round Trip Hyper into hardtag, Wesker assist + overhead. I didn't know how people generally felt about them.

 

[Karsticles]

I say the final change to Shuma is to increase durability on Mystic Ray across the board. H version should have 15 durability points total.

And of course improve ground dash.

I didn't mention the plink dash because he already has a decent plink dash. But it's like a Haggar plink dash - the dash is so bad that it doesn't help much. If the dash is faster, the plink dash will be good. The only thing I'm not set on is the air dash movement distance buff. Should it just be 50%? Or does it need to be closer to double?

Shuma-Gorath:
*Air dash movement extended to 8 directions; distance increased by 50%; total time to completion unaltered.
*Improved ground dash speed by 50%; total time to completion unaltered.
*Mystic Smash hitbox increased considerably; startup reduced by 5 frames across the board.
*j.S is now special cancelable, and characters knocked down by it during air series land next to Shuma-Gorath instead of far away.
*Mystic Stare’s recovery reduced by 15 frames across the board; charge time reduced to 30 frames; assist now shares the point version’s functionality.
*Mystic Ray recovery reduced by 10 frames across the board; charge time reduced to 30 frames; durability changed to 5x1 for L version, 10x1 for M version, 15x1 for H version; assist startup reduced to 47 frames.
*Strange Gaze now turns opponents to stone for 90 frames; aerial opponents fall to the ground; usable once per combo.
*Shuma-Gorath's hitbox is now more consistent during combos.
*Minimum damage scaling on normals and specials reduced to 15%.
*j.M hitbox increased significantly.

Assists: Mystic Ray H, Mystic Stare H, Strange Gaze

High/low unblockables, such as GreenAce's Round Trip Hyper into hardtag, Wesker assist + overhead. I didn't know how people generally felt about them.

We haven't talked about those, and I don't consider them to be a real problem because alpha counters can still potentially get you out of the situation, and if you don't block (smart) the resulting combo has enhanced HSD and reduced damage. It's not something you can keep going forever, it's something you can get now and then.

 

[Darksim]

I'd be fine with vanilla hitstun values if the Ultimate pushback is retained(outside of cr.M, since using that normal as a footsie is a pain in the ass with the pushback)

Keeping the pushback would be my intention. It would still fix just about all of his hit confirming problems.

I don't really think he needs a faster c.L, I guess 7 frames would be fine. If you make it faster than that his frame advantage after things like Fireworks/Drive would actually mean something which should be a relatively dramatic buff, and I don't really think he needs that. His pressure is already good, and he can already double jump away from round start crap if he wants (besides, even a 5 frame c.L still won't really do much at the start of the round).

Currently his biggest problem is lacking a safe way to return to the ground. I wouldn't really want to nerf Helm Breaker's hitbox, I guess it wouldn't make too big of a difference, but the Wolverine/Wesker crew ready mauls him hard enough, they should at least be a little bit afraid of the move (they currently aren't afraid anyway).

Anyway, I'm surprised nobody discussed Hammer yet. I would give it it's old hitbox back. Giving it the old active frames/frame advantage is much more questionable, but it would help with characters standing on the ground waiting for him to land. Having short characters crouch under Hammer so that they can punish it is always not fun.

 

[Dahbomb]

I didn't mention the plink dash because he already has a decent plink dash. But it's like a Haggar plink dash - the dash is so bad that it doesn't help much. If the dash is faster, the plink dash will be good.

That's what I want. Dude is dashing on all tentacles, it should be fast. Plus his back dash is actually pretty fast, it's a psuedo teleport almost. If you bring the two dashes up to parity that would be pretty good.

I think those Shuma changes are all good now. I mean he definitely looks buffed on paper.

I would leave out the percentages for distance and speed. That's hard to judge without experimenting. 50% might be too much or too little, you don't really know.

 

[GuardianE]

We haven't talked about those, and I don't consider them to be a real problem because alpha counters can still potentially get you out of the situation, and if you don't block (smart) the resulting combo has enhanced HSD and reduced damage. It's not something you can keep going forever, it's something you can get now and then.

Good. I agree.

 

[Azure J]

I don't see why he needs to lose bold cancel on whiff, bold move still has a a lot of recovery after he jumps and is basically never used on whiff as is when you could cancel into a special instead. Helm Breaker doesn't have a hitbox behind him, unless you mean on startup, which I don't think is nerf worthy or anything (it's most practically use is probably hitting another Dante out of Air Trick). I also don't think he needs the level 2 Stinger buff either.

So, I would give Dante the vanilla base hitstun/hsd values on his normals, and that would basically be it.

Since he does no damage late in combos anyway he could get soft knockdown on Cold Shower back too, but he still would do no damage so whatever.

Funny how by taking away the damage, he can keep the hitstun and hitstun decay timing from Vanilla.

@Karsticles: I pretty much submitted my final wish list for Dante with my last post on the matter. I still feel like he could do well with a special scaling buff (I really don't think 8% ~ 10% on non-multihit specials would truly break him) but if everything else outlined on my list played out, I would most definitely overlook it for the new consistency granted to "Uncanny" Dante.

For the sake of summary and just to make the universal list if we don't all agree on wording, I'm most in favor of all the nerfs, the c.L speedup, c.L hitbox enhancements for floaters, s.L antiair a la Vanilla, and decreased (but not thoroughly so) knockback on normals. Dante was never in need of sweeping reforms, just needed a lot of "quality of life" enhancements as a friend of mine elsewhere put it.

 

[Karsticles]

Funny how by taking away the damage, he can keep the hitstun and hitstun decay timing from Vanilla.

@Karsticles: I pretty much submitted my final wish list for Dante with my last post on the matter. I still feel like he could do well with a special scaling buff (I really don't think 8% ~ 10% on non-multihit specials would truly break him) but if everything else outlined on my list played out, I would most definitely overlook it for the new consistency granted to "Uncanny" Dante.

For the sake of summary and just to make the universal list if we don't all agree on wording, I'm most in favor of all the nerfs, the c.L speedup, c.L hitbox enhancements for floaters, s.L antiair a la Vanilla, and decreased knockback on normals. Dante was never in need of sweeping reforms, just needed a lot of "quality of life" enhancements as a friend of mine elsewhere put it.

I know you submitted your wishlist, but I want you guys to all agree on it. Work out the details between you all. If you all make me choose, it probably won't be the best choice, since I am not a Dante player.

 

[GuardianE]

Anyway, I'm surprised nobody discussed Hammer yet. I would give it it's old hitbox back. Giving it the old active frames/frame advantage is much more questionable, but it would help with characters standing on the ground waiting for him to land. Having short characters crouch under Hammer so that they can punish it is always not fun.

Whenever Hammer has whiffed for me, I've always thought that it was just the reduced active frames and being too close to the ground. I don't have a problem with increasing the hitbox, as long as the changes to invincibility, startup, and active frames are unchanged.

For the sake of summary and just to make the universal list if we don't all agree on wording, I'm most in favor of all the nerfs, the c.L speedup, c.L hitbox enhancements for floaters, s.L antiair a la Vanilla, and decreased (but not thoroughly so) knockback on normals. Dante was never in need of sweeping reforms, just needed a lot of "quality of life" enhancements as a friend of mine elsewhere put it.

So, you agree with Frantic's list, more or less, but would like reduced damage scaling. Honestly, I'd like some reduced damage scaling as well, but I'm hoping that sufficient nerfs to the damage scaling of other characters will make them all proportionally in line.

It doesn't look like either you or I care about the Hysteric/Crystal change.

 

[Frantic]

Keeping the pushback would be my intention. It would still fix just about all of his hit confirming problems.

Alright, cool, we're on the same page then.

I don't really think he needs a faster c.L, I guess 7 frames would be fine. If you make it faster than that his frame advantage after things like Fireworks/Drive would actually mean something which should be a relatively dramatic buff, and I don't really think he needs that. His pressure is already good, and he can already double jump away from round start crap if he wants (besides, even a 5 frame c.L still won't really do much at the start of the round).

This is my feeling as well. Give him faster normals and his pressure skyrockets.

Currently his biggest problem is lacking a safe way to return to the ground. I wouldn't really want to nerf Helm Breaker's hitbox, I guess it wouldn't make too big of a difference, but the Wolverine/Wesker crew ready mauls him hard enough, they should at least be a little bit afraid of the move (they currently aren't afraid anyway).

Well, I do think the 'dash under to punish only to get hit' is kinda dumb, but that's more of a hurtbox thing than a hitbox thing.

Anyway, I'm surprised nobody discussed Hammer yet. I would give it it's old hitbox back. Giving it the old active frames/frame advantage is much more questionable, but it would help with characters standing on the ground waiting for him to land. Having short characters crouch under Hammer so that they can punish it is always not fun.

Well, wouldn't the frame advantage change to the old values with the old hitbox? Because wasn't that the only thing that was change? Active frames and recovery are the same, the only thing is that he can't perform it as low to the ground anymore. Unless I'm mistaken?


[+] Hitstun values on all normals returned to vanilla. Pushback remains the same as Ultimate.
[+]
[+] cr.M pushback on hit reduced to vanilla levels. Active frames increased to 3 frames, up from 2.
[+] Drive now hyper cancelable during startup.
[+] Fireworks now pierces, as per vanilla.
[+] s.L now chainable into cr.L
[-] No longer able to block during Bold Move's startup frames.
[-] Invincibility removed on Devil Trigger startup.
[-] Jam Session pushes back less on block as an assist.
[-] Reduced/removed hitbox on the hilt of j.S(Helm Breaker) to prevent hits behind him.

One spot open on my list for maybe a faster normal/Hammer change, whatever.

And I'm also open to Crystal becoming Hysteric, just because Hysteric would be an awesome assist. Don't particularly care either way, though.

 

[Darksim]

I'm pretty sure they removed the hitbox in front of him at the beginning of Hammer. You could use it for double overheads after IAD j.h/m in vanilla, now it just whiffs if you try the same thing.

Go put your copy of Vanilla in, it had probably twice the active frames. I thought they also reduced the blockstun too.

 

[biosnake20]

Make that final change special move scaling upped to 8%.

 

[Frantic]

I'm pretty sure they removed the hitbox in front of him at the beginning of Hammer. You could use it for double overheads after IAD j.h/m in vanilla, now it just whiffs if you try the same thing.

That much I know.

Go put your copy of Vanilla in, it had probably twice the active frames. I thought they also reduced the blockstun too.

I'm just going by the guide(s), since it says both have 3 active frames. Of course, the guide has been wrong before.

 

[Dahbomb]

Make that final change special move scaling upped to 8%.

If Dante gets more scaling on specials, I start demanding more scaling on normals for Vergil.

 

[GuardianE]

I still think he deserves a faster c.L. His c.L should not be almost as slow as Hulk's.

I'm pretty sure they removed the hitbox in front of him at the beginning of Hammer. You could use it for double overheads after IAD j.h/m in vanilla, now it just whiffs if you try the same thing.

Go put your copy of Vanilla in, it had probably twice the active frames. I thought they also reduced the blockstun too.

Isn't that just the increased startup?

 

[Darksim]

I'm just going by the guide(s), since it says both have 3 active frames. Of course, the guide has been wrong before.

It's extremely wrong, it probably had close to 3 times the number of active frames actually, maybe more.

The j.S nerf would be fine by me if Hammer was given some sort of buff to improve it as a "respect my landing" move.

 

[biosnake20]

If Dante gets more scaling on specials, I start demanding more scaling on normals for Vergil.

You've got a deal.

 

[Darksim]

I still think he deserves a faster c.L. His c.L should not be almost as slow as Hulk's.

Make his c.L 7 frames then, but more than that and you break into questionable territory.

Isn't that just the increased startup?

Which change are you referring too?

 

[Karsticles]

Satisfactory?

Dante:
*Bold can no longer be block canceled during its initial frames
*Helm Breaker’s hitbox reduced so that it no longer hits characters behind Dante.
*Devil Trigger invincibility frames removed.
*c.L startup reduced to 6 frames and can be chained into from s.L.
*Fireworks regains piercing ability.
*Hitstun values on all normals returned to vanilla; pushback remains the same as Ultimate.
*Jam Session pushback decreased slightly.
*Drive now hyper cancelable during startup.
*The Hammer hitbox and active frames improved slightly.
*c.M pushback on hit returned to Vanilla levels. Active frames increased to 3.

Assists: Weasel Shot, Jam Session, Hysteric

 

[smurfx]

there needs to be much less push back on that one move dante does where he stabs you with the sword and then pushes you away with the guns. don't know what its called but its freaking dumb.

 

[Frantic]

It's extremely wrong, it probably had close to 3 times the number of active frames actually, maybe more.

The j.S nerf would be fine by me if Hammer was given some sort of buff to improve it as a "respect my landing" move.

I just popped vanilla in and compared it to Ultimate. Outside of the minimum height requirement, it doesn't seem all that different. I tested face-to-face neutral jump, Rainstorm > Hammer against a crouching Morrigan, and it connected against her in both versions. Every little test I could think of more or less matches up between versions.

I am seriously having a hard time seeing much change between the two versions. Maybe I'm just blind.

 

[Darksim]

Also, thinking about it more I do want soft knockdown on Cold Shower. He scales so badly that it doesn't add much damage at that point in a combo, so why not? He would get lvl 3 > Cold Shower > THC back, but you can still do that currently if you stick to the basic day 1 prop shredder bnb, any more and he can't though, which is dumb.

I am seriously having a hard time seeing much change between the two versions. Maybe I'm just blind.

You could walk into a Hammer after Dante finished swinging and still get hit. Sometimes aggressive characters i.e. Wolverine would see the Hammer animate, dash forward to punish the landing recovery and get hit by a hitbox that still existed for some reason. It might be hard to replicate something like that, but it definitely exists.

 

[Azure J]

So, you agree with Frantic's list, more or less, but would like reduced damage scaling. Honestly, I'd like some reduced damage scaling as well, but I'm hoping that sufficient nerfs to the damage scaling of other characters will make them all proportionally in line.

It doesn't look like either you or I care about the Hysteric/Crystal change.

Yeah pretty much. The scaling change would only be on specials since I feel like the 5% normals is good. At the same time, I feel like there are other more important refinements over damage that would ensure max usability for the character. I feel like consistency is most important in making more people play him and feel like the work they do with him is worth it.

[+] Hitstun values on all normals returned to vanilla. Pushback remains the same as Ultimate.
[+]
[+] cr.M pushback on hit reduced to vanilla levels. Active frames increased to 3 frames, up from 2.
[+] Drive now hyper cancelable during startup.
[+] Fireworks now pierces, as per vanilla.
[+] s.L now chainable into cr.L
[-] No longer able to block during Bold Move's startup frames.
[-] Invincibility removed on Devil Trigger startup.
[-] Jam Session pushes back less on block as an assist.
[-] Reduced/removed hitbox on the hilt of j.S(Helm Breaker) to prevent hits behind him.

Just curious, what's the benefit of the s.L chaining into c.L? And really, I'll take this and c.L being 6 frames/c.L hitbox fix to hit standing floaters (unless character hit bubbles are being fixed universally) filling in the last spot. I don't feel too strongly about a Crystal change, but I do feel like Dante's pretty perfect currently in assist selection.

there needs to be much less push back on that one move dante does where he stabs you with the sword and then pushes you away with the guns. don't know what its called but its freaking dumb.

Wait, Stinger - Reverb Shock - Fireworks? Nah, can't agree.

@Karst: I agree but I still like Crystal over Hysterics.

 

[Azure J]

.

 

[Frantic]

You could walk into a Hammer after Dante finished swinging and still get hit. Sometimes aggressive characters i.e. Wolverine would see the Hammer animate, dash forward to punish the landing recovery and get hit by a hitbox that still existed for some reason. It might be hard to replicate something like that, but it definitely exists.

Yeah, probably. This game has some really weird shit that's almost impossible to replicate.

Just curious, what's the benefit of the s.L chaining into c.L? And really, I'll take this and c.L being 6 frames/c.L hitbox fix to hit standing floaters (unless character hit bubbles are being fixed universally) filling in the last spot. I don't feel too strongly about a Crystal change, but I do feel like Dante's pretty perfect currently in assist selection.

Catch a low jump with a s.L into cr.L as they land to catch someone holding upback. That and slightly safer frametraps between s.L > cr.L(since there's ten frames of vulnerability between them right now).

 

[FSLink]

I don't feel too strongly about a Crystal change, but I do feel like Dante's pretty perfect currently in assist selection.

Pretty much. Dante's one of the few characters whose assist selection is really well rounded and all useful in different situations. I'm not a fan of just changing just for the sake of changing it, and it's nice having a different OTG assist aside from Wesker OTG that's good.

 

[Darksim]

Yeah, probably. This game has some really weird shit that's almost impossible to replicate.

Well, a more obvious difference would be that you could Hammer from above normal jump height and it would still connect on standing or even crouching opponents. Regardless, the way Karst stated the change in the list he made is fine.

 

[Azure J]

Catch a low jump with a s.L into cr.L as they land to catch someone holding upback. That and slightly safer frametraps between s.L > cr.L(since there's ten frames of vulnerability between them right now).

SOOOOOLD.

Satisfactory?

Dante:
+ c.L startup reduced to 6 frames and can be chained into from s.L.
+ Fireworks regains piercing ability.
+ Hitstun values on all normals returned to vanilla; pushback remains the same as Ultimate.
+ Drive now hyper cancelable during startup.
+ The Hammer hitbox and active frames improved slightly.
+ c.M pushback on hit returned to Vanilla levels. Active frames increased to 3.
- Can no longer block during Bold Move's initial frames
- Helm Breaker’s hitbox reduced so that it no longer hits characters behind Dante.
- Devil Trigger invincibility frames removed.
- Jam Session pushback decreased slightly.

Fixed the list for better readability.

 

[Karsticles]

Much obliged Azure. I also changed Hysteric back to Crystal, since people are mixed about it.

 

[Frantic]

I'm satisfied with that change list. Although I could go for either the Hammer change or the Cold Shower change - whichever one everyone else wants more. I'm pretty neutral on either.

 

["God's Beard!"]

If you give Dante a 6 frame 2L he'd lose the fear of God.
Hysteric was an assist in the beta before they realized how good it was. Then again you guys are already adding dumb assists like Phoenix Drill H and tracking Typhoons.


And Shuma, the hell is going on here O_O

First of all, the hell does Shuma want an 8-way airdash for? He can't cancel anything, he can't fly, his air moves are useless at superjump height.

Do it like this:

• Shuma-Gorath:

*Air dash distance doubled, total frames remain unaltered
*Mystic Smash is throw invincible
*j.S knocks down opponents right next to him
*Mystic Stare’s charge time reduced to 30 frames; assist now shares the point version’s functionality.
*Mystic Ray recovery reduced by 10 frames across the board; charge time reduced to 30 frames; durability changed to 5x1 for L version, 10x1 for M version, 15x1 for H version; assist startup reduced to 47 frames.
*Strange Gaze, jH steal 20,00 vitality and 1000 meter, damage reduced to 20,000
*Shuma-Gorath's hitbox, hurtbox and character model are increased in size by 50%
*Minimum damage scaling on normals and specials reduced to 15%.
*j.M animations switched.
*Untechable Time after Chaos Dimension increased to allow OTGs

Now THAT's a goddamned Shuma Gorath.

 

[GuardianE]

Which change are you referring too?

I thought there was increased startup time on Hammer, though it might just be increased startup for the invulnerability to kick in. I don't have my guide handy, so I can't check.

I'm satisfied with that change list. Although I could go for either the Hammer change or the Cold Shower change - whichever one everyone else wants more. I'm pretty neutral on either.

What's the Cold Shower change you're referring to?

 

[Dahbomb]

Oh man yes please on increased untechable time after Chaos Dimension. Although less start on Mystic Ray might fix that too.

Don't know about throw invincibility on Mystic Smash...

Looks like no ones gives a shit about Chris or Frank West. Although I don't understand why Frank is getting his health bonus dropped from LVL5. Seems like an arbitrary nerf, if anything lvl5 should be better because there isn't much of a difference between 4 and 5 as it is.

 

[Darksim]

I'm satisfied with that change list. Although I could go for either the Hammer change or the Cold Shower change - whichever one everyone else wants more. I'm pretty neutral on either.

How about both

 

["God's Beard!"]

Oh man yes please on increased untechable time after Chaos Dimension. Although less start on Mystic Ray might fix that too.

Don't know about throw invincibility on Mystic Smash...

No, you can't do anything after Chaos Dimension. The only way to combo it is to put them in Joe's slow mode because it increases untechable time.

 

[kirblar]

4 characters at once = too many imo.

 

[Frantic]

I have never thrown Mystic Smash, ever. My brain goes 'spikes are bad' and so I never try.

Anti-air that shit all the time, though.

How about both

well, there's the whole 10 change limit thing we've got going on, so...

Let's just remove all the nerfs and make it only buffs!

What's the Cold Shower change you're referring to?

Restoration of soft-knockdown as in vanilla. That way he can get the wallbounce really late in the combo, or off a DHC.

Looks like no ones gives a shit about Chris or Frank West. Although I don't understand why Frank is getting his health bonus dropped from LVL5. Seems like an arbitrary nerf, if anything lvl5 should be better because there isn't much of a difference between 4 and 5 as it is.

I've been brainstorming Dante all day, but I'll move onto them(I don't know much about Shuma). What are the current proposed changes?

 

[Karsticles]

4 characters at once = too many imo.

This is our third batch, and we're doing just fine.

 

[Dahbomb]

4 characters at once = too many imo.

It's 4 characters for however long it takes to settle on something. It's not 4 characters a day although people have been speeding through it faster than anticipated. It seems we have Dante on lock plus no one is giving a shit about Chris and Frank because they are fine anyway.

 

[Azure J]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72213201]If you give Dante a 6 frame 2L he'd lose the fear of God.[/QUOTE]

Pretty much my single reason for advocating for a fast(er) c.L is because I feel like it's legitimately weird for him to have a slow standing jab and a slow crouching jab. With the standing jab being a 180 degree swing with a claymore, it's understandable and well designed. The c.L though should pick up the slack or at least give an option that isn't presently available though. I'm also hoping that some mention/fix is made on a universal level regarding that button straight up losing to floating characters like I'm using ground moves on Leviators in Pokemon.

 

[GuardianE]

Looks like no ones gives a shit about Chris or Frank West. Although I don't understand why Frank is getting his health bonus dropped from LVL5. Seems like an arbitrary nerf, if anything lvl5 should be better because there isn't much of a difference between 4 and 5 as it is.

I care about Chris, but I'm not sure what to add besides the suggestions you've already made. Have we made Incendiary Grenade an assist?

Restoration of soft-knockdown as in vanilla. That way he can get the wallbounce really late in the combo, or off a DHC.

Gotcha. I could take it or leave it.

 

[Frantic]

It's 4 characters for however long it takes to settle on something. It's not 4 characters a day although people have been speeding through it faster than anticipated. It seems we have Dante on lock plus no one is giving a shit about Chris and Frank because they are fine anyway.

What are the current lists for those two? I might get a few ideas looking at them.

 

[Dahbomb]

It doesn't "lose" to floating characters it goes through them. The hit box of cr.L is on the very tip of the gun shot and if a character like Morrigan fits between Dante and the tip the attack whiffs. I saw this on a Vita to confirm. So you basically want a hit box extension on the move.

 

[Karsticles]

It's 4 characters for however long it takes to settle on something. It's not 4 characters a day although people have been speeding through it faster than anticipated. It seems we have Dante on lock plus no one is giving a shit about Chris and Frank because they are fine anyway.

I thought you said Frank was the best character in the game. I figure you'd have something to say about that.

What are the current lists for those two? I might get a few ideas looking at them.

Frank West:
*Snapshot now -5 on block.
*Level 5 health buff removed.
*Chip damage reduced to 15%.
*Pick Me Up frame data now shares that of Dark Harmonizer.
*Tools of Survival hitstun increased slightly (ensures he can link 3 after a TAC).
*Bottoms Up's vomiting effect will be negated if Frank West hits an opponent.

Assists: Shopping Cart, Pick Me Up , Hammer Throw H


Chris:
*Flamethrower vertical hitbox increased, slight upper body invincibility.
*Grenade fires now dim significantly when the active frames have finished.
*Flame Thrower damage reduced to 120,000 maximum.
*s.S now cancels Chris’ Grenade Launcher and Satellite Laser hypers.
*Prone Position now cancelable (jump cancelable? Special?; arguable)
*Combination Punch H has one hit of armor from frames 5-12.

Assists: Gun Fire M, Grenade Toss H, Flamethrower