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[Karsticles]

DAHBOMB, VOICE YOUR OPINION ON THIS.

This isn't a big deal balance wise but the problem is that this is an unrealistic suggestion. This requires reworks of every move, his character model etc. It's not as simple as taking Shuma Gorath and stretching him 50%.

I still support comboable Chaos Dimension but this change is just silly.

c.M would hit half-screen with a 50% increase. That is a huge balance change when GB also wants to give him X-23 ground dash speeds. He also wants c.M to be jump cancelable. So we're looking at a Stinger that hits low and is jump cancelable with X-23 dash speeds. GB is bonkers.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I don't pray, I form pacts written in blood.

You'll be writing them with a mop once the doom is triggered.

I still support comboable Chaos Dimension but this change is just silly.

FOR OR AGAINST

 

[Dahbomb]

What is this "FOR OR AGAINST" bull shit? I don't need to side with a person here, I just need to side with a change that actually makes sense.

*Hit box rework on Shuma = Nope
*Comboable Chaos Dimension = Yes please

I don't care for Shuma getting bigger normals because he would be getting bigger hurt boxes too. If you increase him too much he starts being opened up by instant overheads and just getting hit by stuff more. Makes him difficult to approach from the air too when he's a bigger target. I just think it's too radical of a change to be supported.

 

[GuardianE]

That overhead makes Chris a lot scarier. He already has a decent throw game, and this gives him an overhead + option select throw.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Me too, but I doubt anyone else would go for that...

Yes, fuck Spencer. I'm not even sure how I want to nerf him yet outside of what I have already done...

Spencer doesn't need much besides that stupid up grapple damage being fixed. He does piss me off, but there's nothing I can think of that's actually wrong with him.




Plus I use him......

 

["God's Beard!"]

Then you have cursed us both, Dahbomb.

Upwards airdashes require a new animation. Look at any airdash character, there is a subtle difference in how they dash different directions. Nova throws his arm upwards.

You said it yourself:

If no new animations is a rule

I INVOKE VETO POWER ON 8-WAY AIRDASHES FOR SHUMA

 

[GuardianE]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72232626]Then you have cursed us both, Dahbomb.

Upwards airdashes require a new animation. Look at any airdash character, there is a subtle difference in how they dash different directions. Nova throws his arm upwards.

You said it yourself:



I INVOKE VETO POWER ON 8-WAY AIRDASHES FOR SHUMA[/QUOTE]

Some men just want to watch the world burn.

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72232626]Then you have cursed us both, Dahbomb.

Upwards airdashes require a new animation. Look at any airdash character, there is a subtle difference in how they dash different directions. Nova throws his arm upwards.

You said it yourself:



I INVOKE VETO POWER ON 8-WAY AIRDASHES FOR SHUMA[/QUOTE]
No, it doesn't require a new animation. It just requires turning his air dash animation at an angle. It really takes very little work at all. Luckily, Shuma-Gorath's air dash animation works for any angle because it's just a floating eye with tentacles drifting behind.

 

[Dahbomb]

This whole "I hate this character, I want to nerf him" mentality needs to stop.

I hate Zero with a passion but I put my hate aside and fought tooth and nail for what I believe is fair to the character. I know that if my character was getting nerfed I would feel bad too, no matter how strong he may be. The same goes for characters I like... I love Dante but no way am I going to clear for him getting better scaling when so many characters are getting a damage nerf anyway.

Shuma getting 8 way air dash does not qualify as new animation. However, it's definitely in the grey area of "reworking" the character's archetype.

 

[Karsticles]

This whole "I hate this character, I want to nerf him" mentality needs to stop.

I hate Zero with a passion but I put my hate aside and fought tooth and nail for what I believe is fair to the character. I know that if my character was getting nerfed I would feel bad too, no matter how strong he may be. The same goes for characters I like... I love Dante but no way am I going to clear for him getting better scaling when so many characters are getting a damage nerf anyway.

I don't have that. I'm just messing around. I HATE Dante. Did my changes seem hate-inspired to you?

 

[Dahbomb]

I don't have that. I'm just messing around. I HATE Dante. Did my changes seem hate-inspired to you?

Nah but you hate Spencer and Zero.

I am just talking in general, not specifically about someone. When coming up with patch changes... personal bias should be left at the door. This also applies to character you like/enjoy, you can't go buff heavy either.

 

["God's Beard!"]

No, it doesn't require a new animation. It just requires turning his air dash animation at an angle. It really takes very little work at all. Luckily, Shuma-Gorath's air dash animation works for any angle because it's just a floating eye with tentacles drifting behind.

Wrong, Capcom's not gonna twist him 90 degrees and call it a day. And his limbs aren't physics-based so it's not an easy change either. Capcom's on record when they announced Shuma that it was a pain in the ass to keyframe his octopus legs.

Furthermore, adding more airdash directions necessitates additional lines of codes that require bug testing.

No extra airdashes.

 

[Karsticles]

Nah but you hate Spencer and Zero.

I am just talking in general, not specifically about someone. When coming up with patch changes... personal bias should be left at the door. This also applies to character you like/enjoy, you can't go buff heavy either.

Every Zero player has been fine with the changes we all settled on, though. Even GFAQs players accept them.

I do feel like Spencer shouldn't get in for free so much, but I honestly don't know what to do about that. Another topic for another day.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72233711]Wrong, Capcom's not gonna twist him 90 degrees and call it a day. And his limbs aren't physics-based so it's not an easy change either. Capcom's on record when they announced Shuma that it was a pain in the ass to keyframe his octopus legs.

Furthermore, adding more airdash directions necessitates additional lines of codes that require bug testing.

No extra airdashes.[/QUOTE]
Um, everything we do necessitates additional lines of code that require bug testing. lol.

I get that you are mad, but there's no way anyone is going to agree to a Shuma-Gorath size increase. If you're going to be ridiculous and spiteful just for the sake of it, you might want to reconsider whether you want to play a major role in these discussions. There's just no place for that here.

 

[Dahbomb]

Veto power can only come into play if someone else agrees with you. One person can't veto by himself, no one is the President here.

I definitely think it's a grey area, I even raised up concerns earlier. But that's what it is.. a grey area. Right now I can't fine a reason for there to be anything abusive about 8 way air dash on Shuma. I do however thing his tri dash might be adjusted so that it's Nova level because no way should Shuma have a Magneto tri dash.

Additional lines of coding and bug testing is going to happen on a new patch anyway. That's a poor argument to make.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Um, everything we do necessitates additional lines of code that require bug testing. lol.

Editing hitboxes and frame data don't require new coding. They just go into their hitsphere editing tools in MT Framework and move stuff around.

Honestly, Upwards airdashes are new animations. They require animators. I just didn't bring it up before because I wanted to blackmail you.

I get that you are mad, but there's no way anyone is going to agree to a Shuma-Gorath size increase. If you're going to be ridiculous and spiteful just for the sake of it, you might want to reconsider whether you want to play a major role in these discussions. There's just no place for that here.

I just want Capcom to see there's a consensus that giant Shuma is awesome. You're acting like I'm some guy that dresses up as Shuma and raps about him on youtube for God's sake.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

I do feel like Spencer shouldn't get in for free so much, but I honestly don't know what to do about that. Another topic for another day.

I don't really feel that he gets in for free. He's easy to air grab out of zipline and he's actually not safe during a ground zip, but very few people do anything about it.

 

[Frantic]

Every new set of characters seems to have an argument over one of them. This time it's Shuma, before it was Zero, and before that it was Phoenix Wright. Will we ever have a day where there is unanimous agreement for all characters?

Spoiler

No.

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72234561]Editing hitboxes and frame data don't require new coding. They just go into their hitsphere editing tools in MT Framework and move stuff around.

Honestly, Upwards airdashes are new animations. They require animators. I just didn't bring it up before because I wanted to blackmail you.[/QUOTE]
Most of our changes aren't hitboxes and frame data. For example, Wright's evidence toss now causes a dizzy. That's a line of code. She-Hulk's Emerald Cannon forces a wall bounce now. That's a line of code. Etc.

Anyway, I'll drop the 8-way air dash - no big deal. It's your favorite character that you're hurting, after all.

Current changelist:

Shuma-Gorath:
*Air dash movement distance increased by 100%; total time to completion unaltered.
*Improved ground dash speed by 50%; total time to completion unaltered.
*Mystic Smash hitbox increased considerably; startup reduced by 5 frames across the board.
*j.S is now special cancelable, and characters knocked down by it during air series land next to Shuma-Gorath instead of far away.
*Mystic Stare’s recovery reduced by 15 frames across the board; charge time reduced to 30 frames; assist now shares the point version’s functionality.
*Mystic Ray recovery reduced by 10 frames across the board; charge time reduced to 30 frames; hitstun increased slightly on all versions; durability changed to 5x1 for L version, 10x1 for M version, 15x1 for H version; assist startup reduced to 47 frames.
*Chaos Dimension now recovers with enough time for Shuma-Gorath to perform an OTG follow-up.
*Shuma-Gorath's hitbox is now more consistent during combos.
*Minimum damage scaling on normals and specials reduced to 15%.
*j.M hitbox increased significantly.

Assists: Mystic Ray H, Mystic Stare H, Mystic Smash L

I had to remove Strange Gaze causing Stone because I'm sure GB will protest that too. I put comboable Chaos Dimension in, but now Shuma-Gorath doesn't have a good third assist, so I put his old crappy Mystic Smash back in. Is everyone happy with this? I wish I had a third good assist to give him...

 

[Dahbomb]

Giant Shuma is more accurate to the comics and lore but in this current form of the game it's too big of a change to request.

I mean if Shuma would get a hit box increase... I for sure want a Sentinel hit box decrease. At least enough so he doesn't get instant over headed by every character in the game. I am sure Karst would LOVE a hit box decrease on Dorm.

Every new set of characters seems to have an argument over one of them. This time it's Shuma, before it was Zero, and before that it was Phoenix Wright. Will we ever have a day where there is unanimous agreement for all characters?

That's the beauty of it. I don't want anything to go in without some argument over it. You have to be absolutely sure about your change and how it holds up.

I thought Dante went along just fine without many arguments. Although I would say the Crystal/Hysteric thing definitely caused people to draw lines lol.

 

[Karsticles]

Giant Shuma is more accurate to the comics and lore but in this current form of the game it's too big of a change to request.

I mean if Shuma would get a hit box increase... I for sure want a Sentinel hit box decrease. At least enough so he doesn't get instant over headed by every character in the game. I am sure Karst would LOVE a hit box decrease on Dorm.

Nah, I don't care about Dormammu's hurtbox. He looks cool being tall. He also gets pretty small when he crouches, so instant overheads aren't quite as scary.

The only thing that bothers me about Dormammu in terms of blocking stuff is the damn force field bubble. I can't see mix-ups for shit because blocking obscures my opponent's actions. -_-

 

["God's Beard!"]

I want Sentinel to be bigger too.

Shuma list seems good now.

 

[Dahbomb]

What's the master list now? I think we are done with Shuma and Dante. Should be done with Chris too. I personally don't have anything to add to Frank West.

I say let these 4 characters for one more day and if we don't get any new discussion going tomorrow I will release the next 4. Just want people to take their time, sleep over it and stuff.

BTW I will be doing a tier list of the new characters in this new patch just for the fun.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Nobody said anything about shifting Shotgun's angle up by 15% or I missed the response.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Giant Shuma is more accurate to the comics and lore but in this current form of the game it's too big of a change to request.

I mean if Shuma would get a hit box increase... I for sure want a Sentinel hit box decrease. At least enough so he doesn't get instant over headed by every character in the game. I am sure Karst would LOVE a hit box decrease on Dorm.


That's the beauty of it. I don't want anything to go in without some argument over it. You have to be absolutely sure about your change and how it holds up.

I thought Dante went along just fine without many arguments. Although I would say the Crystal/Hysteric thing definitely caused people to draw lines lol.

Sentinel is a big motherfucker. It's just a problem he should have to deal with. Most of the MvC2 cast had a fucking inifinite against him.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72236401]Nobody said anything about shifting Shotgun's angle up by 15% or I missed the response.[/QUOTE]

I think someone responded. It's not something I would want though.

 

[Karsticles]

If anyone can think of a good 3rd Shuma-Gorath assist, let me know. You know it makes me sad that I can only think of 2.

Shuma-Gorath:
*Air dash movement distance increased by 100%; total time to completion unaltered.
*Improved ground dash speed by 50%; total time to completion unaltered.
*Mystic Smash hitbox increased considerably; startup reduced by 5 frames across the board.
*j.S is now special cancelable, and characters knocked down by it during air series land next to Shuma-Gorath instead of far away.
*Mystic Stare’s recovery reduced by 15 frames across the board; charge time reduced to 30 frames; assist now shares the point version’s functionality.
*Mystic Ray recovery reduced by 10 frames across the board; charge time reduced to 30 frames; hitstun increased slightly on all versions; durability changed to 5x1 for L version, 10x1 for M version, 15x1 for H version; assist startup reduced to 47 frames.
*Chaos Dimension now recovers with enough time for Shuma-Gorath to perform an OTG follow-up.
*Shuma-Gorath's hitbox is now more consistent during combos.
*Minimum damage scaling on normals and specials reduced to 15%.
*j.M hitbox increased significantly.

Assists: Mystic Ray H, Mystic Stare H, Mystic Smash L

Chris:
*Flamethrower vertical hitbox increased; slight upper body invincibility on assist version.
*Grenade fires now dim significantly when the active frames have finished.
*Flamethrower damage reduced to 120,000 maximum.
*s.S now cancels Chris’ Grenade Launcher and Satellite Laser hypers.
*Prone Position now cancelable (jump cancelable? Special?; arguable)
*Combination Punch H has one hit of armor from frames 5-12.
*Grenade Toss L +1 on block.
*Combination Punch follow-up inputs made more lenient.
*Stun Rod now hits overhead; startup increased to 24 frames.

Assists: Gun Fire M, Grenade Toss H, Flamethrower

Dante:
+ c.L startup reduced to 6 frames and can be chained into from s.L.
+ Fireworks regains piercing ability.
+ Hitstun values on all normals returned to Vanilla status; pushback remains the same as Ultimate.
+ Drive now hyper cancelable during startup.
+ The Hammer hitbox and active frames improved slightly.
+ c.M pushback on hit returned to Vanilla levels; active frames increased to 3.
- Can no longer block during Bold Move's initial frames.
- Helm Breaker’s hitbox reduced so that it no longer hits characters behind Dante.
- Devil Trigger invincibility frames removed.
- Jam Session pushback decreased slightly.

Assists: Weasel Shot, Jam Session, Crystal

Frank West:
*Snapshot now -5 on block, -3 on hit.
*Level 5 health buff removed.
*Chip damage reduced to 15%.
*Pick Me Up frame data now shares that of Dark Harmonizer.
*Tools of Survival hitstun increased slightly (ensures he can link 3 after a TAC).
*Bottoms Up's vomiting effect will be negated if Frank West hits an opponent.

Assists: Shopping Cart, Pick Me Up , Hammer Throw H

 

["God's Beard!"]

Sentinel should be Gold Lightan size.

 

[Frantic]

I thought Dante went along just fine without many arguments. Although I would say the Crystal/Hysteric thing definitely caused people to draw lines lol.

Dante definitely went pretty well. Helps that we have a ton of Dante players who are also reasonable Dante players. Some of the Dante requests I see elsewhere blow my mind.

If anyone can think of a good 3rd Shuma-Gorath assist, let me know. You know it makes me sad that I can only think of 2.

TK Mystic Smash L!

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

For Chris. Shotgun really should not miss at point blank. It's dumb.

 

[Dahbomb]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72236401]Nobody said anything about shifting Shotgun's angle up by 15% or I missed the response.[/QUOTE]
You missed the response. I said that it's a pointless change because that's not really where Chris is actually weak at. Shotgun has slow start up and doesn't travel all the way across... so it's not really going to protect against fast tri dashes and it's not going to do anything about characters like Trish camping at the top corner of the screen. That zone is protected by stuff like Flamethrower into Mines, tri dashers cannot afford to trade with Chris at that zone because it's a death sentence for them. What Chris needs is something like Deadpool's H Trigger Happy and in the air M Trigger happy (one of either would be fine) but since that would require new moves I didn't add it in. Personally even a single pistol shot air to air would've been fine. I think this one weakness of Chris should stay in especially now that he's getting an overhead apparently.

 

["God's Beard!"]

You missed the response. I said that it's a pointless change because that's not really where Chris is actually weak at. Shotgun has slow start up and doesn't travel all the way across... so it's not really going to protect against fast tri dashes and it's not going to do anything about characters like Trish camping at the top corner of the screen. That zone is protected by stuff like Flamethrower into Mines, tri dashers cannot afford to trade with Chris at that zone because it's a death sentence for them. What Chris needs is something like Deadpool's H Trigger Happy and in the air M Trigger happy (one of either would be fine) but since that would require new moves I didn't add it in. Personally even a single pistol shot air to air would've been fine. I think this one weakness of Chris should stay in especially now that he's getting an overhead apparently.

I just meant to annoy people jumping at him at superjump height.

Let's make him twice as big. No... THREE times as big!

Two people agree, put it on the list.

 

[GuardianE]

- Helm Breaker’s hitbox reduced so that it no longer hits characters behind Dante

Small suggestion: I'd reword that just to clarify that the hitbox shaving should occur on the hilt of Rebellion, during the downward trajectory of the Helm Breaker, not the overhead aerial swing during the initial active frames.

 

[FSLink]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72236671]Sentinel should be Gold Lightan size.[/QUOTE]

Gold Lightan should just be in the game.

I'll take Sentinel at super size + gold herald color on default

 

["God's Beard!"]

I thought of a reason to justify Shopping Cart for level 1 Frank!

He can use the fast forward momentum and hitbox advantage during footsies then x-factor cancel it to get an easy combo into level 3 that starts off 7 hits. That way he has a more reliable way to level up as an anchor to stage a potential comeback around, but it's a one-time kinda deal.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

PTX-40A > Gold Lightan

 

[GuardianE]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72238246]I thought of a reason to justify Shopping Cart for level 1 Frank!

He can use the fast forward momentum and hitbox advantage during footsies then x-factor cancel it to get an easy combo into level 3 that starts off 7 hits. That way he has a more reliable way to level up as an anchor to stage a potential comeback around, but it's a one-time kinda deal.[/QUOTE]

Can't he do that with zombie toss?

 

[Karsticles]

TK Mystic Smash L!

That opens up a whole new can of worms.

Small suggestion: I'd reword that just to clarify that the hitbox shaving should occur on the hilt of Rebellion, during the downward trajectory of the Helm Breaker, not the overhead aerial swing during the initial active frames.

Done.

For Chris. Shotgun really should not miss at point blank. It's dumb.

Added. That is Gun Fire L, right?

 

[Dahbomb]

Well Shopping Cart has more hits initially so it sort of makes sense in terms of leveling up Frank but I don't know man... I think this new Frank is perfect. Slightly better in lower levels but not near broke at high levels.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Oh and can something be done about Chris's Grenade Toss M?

Added. That is Gun Fire L, right?

Yes

 

["God's Beard!"]

Well Frank is already nerfed by making TACs cost a meter.

 

[Dahbomb]

Oh and can something be done about Chris's Grenade Toss M?

What's the problem?

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

What's the problem?

It doesn't have enough use. I rarely use it outside of specific combos. If it did a little bit more damage and maybe caused a hard knockdown then it could put some serious fear into people.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Why doesn't Frank's snapback level up? It's always the bat.

How come people drop out of the chainsaw sometimes?

I didn't know you could snapback after the cart super.

Going on now if anybody wants to play.

 

[Frantic]

That opens up a whole new can of worms.

I just want a TK assist, is that so much to ask!?

How much lockdown does Mystic Smash provide, anyways? Would something like s.H do better? Pseudo-Lightning Legs for mixups.

 

[GooeyHeat]

I just picked this game up for PS3. I used to have it on 360, but then I made the switcheroo. It's installing right now, but when it's done, anyone want to actually play the game we have now instead of making wishes to elder gods about changes?

PSN: GooeyHeat

I am:
-East Coast
-Terrible

 

[Azure J]

Every new set of characters seems to have an argument over one of them. This time it's Shuma, before it was Zero, and before that it was Phoenix Wright. Will we ever have a day where there is unanimous agreement for all characters?

Spoiler

No.

Hsien Ko day is going to be so positive.

I thought Dante went along just fine without many arguments. Although I would say the Crystal/Hysteric thing definitely caused people to draw lines lol.

DanteGAF is best MarvelGAF.

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

GGs Twilt. When the games weren't lagging they were great. Nice Strider work.

LOL. I'm just saying that giving Chris a 24 frame overhead isn't that big of a deal. It's bright blue and shiny so you can react to it, and honestly I always thought it was an overhead anyway. What's so bad about it in your opinion

It would be the fastest overhead then right? I don't think it would be as easy to react to as much as the other overheads in the game. Plus I don't like the sound of an overhead being the same button as a throw. Didn't get a throw? How about an overhead?

 

[Dahbomb]

It doesn't have enough use. I rarely use it outside of specific combos. If it did a little bit more damage and maybe caused a hard knockdown then it could put some serious fear into people.

It being hard knockdown would be too good. It's slightly faster than H Grenade so it's not like it's terrible in the neutral. Having hard knockdown on it would result in new combos for Chris and he already hits like a truck.

I think L grenade for throw pick ups and close protection, H for mid range protection and traps with M grenade for big combos is fine. Not every move will be used for the neutral, you can have some combo moves.

It would be the fastest overhead then right? I don't think it would be as easy to react to as much as the other overheads in the game. Plus I don't like the sound of an overhead being the same button as a throw. Didn't get a throw? How about an overhead?

Akuma's overhead is 21 frames as is Akuma's. Definitely not the fastest overhead in the game.

 

[Karsticles]

I just want a TK assist, is that so much to ask!?

How much lockdown does Mystic Smash provide, anyways? Would something like s.H do better? Pseudo-Lightning Legs for mixups.

It opens up all aerial moves for assists, though!

Mystic Smash L provides decent lockdown. s.H would be worse (I think) because the hitbox is probably moving all over the place based on which tentacles are doing what.

It would be the fastest overhead then right? I don't think it would be as easy to react to as much as the other overheads in the game. Plus I don't like the sound of an overhead being the same button as a throw. Didn't get a throw? How about an overhead?

Morrigan's overhead is 16 frames. It's probably the fastest unless you want to count stuff like Wolverine's j.L, which is like...8 frames? Nova and Spencer get f.H overhead option selects, I've never heard anyone complain. It's not that big of a deal because overheads are slow, so you're usually either doing an overhead early while your opponent is in blockstun, or waiting to throw.

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

I just had a random Shuma thought. If he was getting a new assist to replace one of his crappy ones, he could do his stone fall (dive kick). Kinda like a Vajra.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

It being hard knockdown would be too good. It's slightly faster than H Grenade so it's not like it's terrible in the neutral. Having hard knockdown on it would result in new combos for Chris and he already hits like a truck.

I think L grenade for throw pick ups and close protection, H for mid range protection and traps with M grenade for big combos is fine. Not every move will be used for the neutral, you can have some combo moves.


Akuma's overhead is 21 frames as is Akuma's. Definitely not the fastest overhead in the game.

I agree it would be too good, but it's just a thought. Everyone would be so scared to approach......hell to do anything.

Chris wins Evo.