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[Frantic]

Eagerly awaiting Viscant's blog post.

I don't think it matters whether something originates as a glitch. If 1) players of the character like it and 2) if no one on earth complains about it (except for Karst), why fuck with it? In many situations it requires careful timing to do anyway, like if you try to punish lariat and Haggar tries to punish your punish with rapid fire fist, you have to time bold move correctly or you will get punched in the face.

Sure, but it's still silly that only one character has it. Especially when that character is one of the safest characters overall already. At the end of the day, I'm mostly neutral on it. I don't mind if it stays, don't mind if it goes.

Spoiler

I don't think Capcom would actually remove it in a potential patch, even if it was a suggestion. Since it reuses the normal prejump frames, and they didn't fix it in the vanilla to Ultimate crossover, I imagine they're simply too lazy to fix it. No joke.

 

[Dahbomb]

Nemesis needs his hyper scaling fixed, right? I remember some aspect of his damage scaling being really bad.

He 100% does.

Hyper scaling needs to be adjusted from 30% (among the lowest in the game) to 40% minimum.

For reference... Viper and Captain America hypers have 60% and 55% scaling on hypers, respectively. I think Viper might have the highest in the game for some reason.

 

[SolarPowered]

Please do Hsien-Ko next batch.

Pretty much the only thing I'm here for. I can't wait to laugh at everyone's buff proposals.

;D

 

[Dahbomb]

I wonder if Viscant lurked this thread and stole some of our ideas...

 

[SloaneRisette]

He 100% does.

Hyper scaling needs to be adjusted from 30% (among the lowest in the game) to 40% minimum.

For reference... Viper and Captain America hypers have 60% and 55% scaling on hypers, respectively. I think Viper might have the highest in the game for some reason.

Because I don't know what that means 100% (excuse my scrubbiness, essentially), what does that mean? Is that good that Viper and Cap have high scaling on their hypers?

 

[Dahbomb]

Because I don't know what that means 100% (excuse my scrubbiness, essentially), what does that mean? Is that good that Viper and Cap have high scaling on their hypers?

That's good but that's not THAT good. Having something like 30% scaling on normals is way better than having 50% hyper scaling. In the end for hypers your base damage on hypers is more important. Wolverine's scaling on hypers is actually not that high but Fatal Claw still does a ton of damage because the base value is high. Viper despite having 60% still does moderate damage on her lvl1 because her lvl1 has moderate to low damage.

Also mashing influences damage too. High base damage + mashable hyper * high scaling minimum = your hyper will do a lot of damage.

 

[Azure J]

What does the master list of changes (both system and characters thus far) look like? Anyone have the full lists? Karst?

 

[FSLink]

GGs to Slasher and FSLink. Both you guys are really good as usual.

Gonna spend the upcoming weekend to practice some more.

GGs. I think I'm gonna start using Nova/Spencer/Hawkeye for my main online team...I keep getting happy birthday'd trying to use Strange online.

 

[Azure J]

I wonder if Viscant lurked this thread and stole some of our ideas...

You should ask him on Twitter!

 

[smurfx]

I'm ready for big bodies, TIME TO NERF THE FUCK OUTTA LARIAT AND BUFF THE FUCK OUTTA SENT AND NEMMY.

 

[Karsticles]

I like bold blocking too- at least I don't see why it's problematic. Having a beam hyper is an amazing tool as is- so what if your character can't punish one specific character when they whiff a normal?

It's not just beam hypers; it keeps him punish-proof from all hypers. Bionic Lancer, Magnetic Shockwave, Chaotic Flame, Spell of Vishanti. No one should get to be save from all of this on an attack whiff for free. No one.

What does the master list of changes (both system and characters thus far) look like? Anyone have the full lists? Karst?

Look at the third post in this thread.

 

[Karsticles]

My suggested changes:

Nemesis:
*Fatal Mutation now has full invincibility and grabs in a 360 degree circle; places opponent in a crumple state; startup time reduced to 5 frames.
*Both Bioweapon Assault and Biohazard Rush recover sooner, allowing Nemesis to combo off of the ground bounce they cause.
*Biohazard Rush now has armor on frame 1; startup reduced to 8+1.
*s.S now has hyper armor on frames 3-15.
*Bioweapon Assault now better at predicting where rockets should fire.
*c.H super armor changed to frames 8-27.
*s.H super armor changed to frames 7-24.
*Launcher Slam L is now -1 on block.
*Minimum damage scaling for hypers changed to 60%.

Assists: Clothesline Rocket M, Deadly Reach, Launcher

C. Viper:
*C. Viper now flashes yellow when performing an EX attack.
*EX moves can no longer be canceled into one another.
*Minimum damage scaling on specials reduced to 20%.

Assists: Thunder Knuckle H, Optic Laser, Burning Kick L.

Jill:
*Arrow Kick travels farther.
*Arrow Kick can now be canceled into Feral Crouch on hit.
*Machine Gun Spray damage increased to 20,000 per bullet (22 bullets fire).
*Mad Beast is now a level 1.
*Double Knee Drop startup reduced by 10 frames across the board.
*Position Change is now +6 on hit.
*Fallen Prey now places opponents in a crumple state.
*Health increased to 950,000.

Assists: Arrow Kick, Somersault Kick, Sickle Kick

Deadpool:
*Cuttin’ Time causes a hard knockdown.
*4th Wall Crisis is now 2+0 on startup.
*Happy-Happy Trigger damage increased slightly.
*Ninja Gift (all versions) no longer leaves Deadpool prone until landing.

Assists: Trigger Happy L, Katana-rama! H, Ninja Gift M

 

[Dahbomb]

Minimum damage scaling for Nemesis hypers might be too high at 60%. I think 50% is the max it should be.

I honestly really like God's Beard changes for all 4 characters. Going to write up my list.

Deadpool:

+ Teleport malfunctions no longer cause hard knockdown; cause soft knockdown instead
+ Quick Slice into Chimichanga is easier to perform now (right now the timing is a bit too tight)
+ LVL3 is now a LVL1 hyper, damage reduced accordingly (220K). Applies proper damage scaling after you connect with it just like with Wesker. 2+0 on start up.
+ Quick Slice assist changed to Trigger Happy L


Viper:

- Focus Attack unblockable when it connects against an air borne opponent now applies a minimum hit stun "strike" effect that they can recover out of. On the ground Focus Attack causes the same crumple.
- Minimum scaling on specials reduced from 30% to 20%
- Cannot cancel EX moves into EX moves
- EX Seismo now does not cause a bounce, have to properly confirm off of it at the proper distance
+ Optic Blast replaces either Seismo or Burn Kick assist


Nemesis:

+ Basically the Clothesline changes that God's Beard proposed, just written more clearly so everyone can understand why it makes sense.
+ New angled down Rocket shot mapped to QCB + S
+ LVL3 fully invincible from the first frame, range extended and on hit puts enemies in crumple state
+ Armor starts up faster on all attacks that have armor
+ Minimum scaling on Hypers upped from 30% to 50%
+ Biohazard Rush has full Hyper armor all the way through
+ Launcher Slam M now hits overhead, can now be comboed off of regularly on standing opponents
+ Rocket Launcher assist replaced with QCB + S angled down Rocket Launcher


Jill

I DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT THE CHARACTER!

 

[Karsticles]

Minimum damage scaling for Nemesis hypers might be too high at 60%. I think 50% is the max it should be.

I honestly really like God's Beard changes for all 4 characters. Going to write up my list.

Bioweapon Assault hits 4 times at 80,000 each. So at 60% scaling, you're looking at a hyper that does 192,000. Biohazard Rush will do slightly less.

Edit: Looking at GB's changes now.

 

[Azure J]

Look at the third post in this thread.

OK, cool. Are we still able to comment on what's there or are we getting closer to a point where the stuff there is more or less solidified as our thoughts on a patch?

@God's Beard: Level 3 Focus Attack is already uncancellable on whiff.

 

[Karsticles]

OK, cool. Are we still able to comment on what's there or are we getting closer to a point where the stuff there is more or less solidified as our thoughts on a patch?

Comment away. We haven't had any official votes to solidify stuff. I am staying away from that because we are moving at such a fast pace that we could easily overlook something. I think it would be silly to place anything off limits from discussion "just because".

My changes after reading GB's list and thinking about it; I'll give reasons for why I don't like some of those changes in a bit:

Deadpool:
*Cuttin’ Time causes a hard knockdown.
*4th Wall Crisis is now 5+0 on startup; 1 bar; damage reduced to 220,000; throw scaling on follow-up.
*Happy-Happy Trigger damage increased slightly.
*Ninja Gift (all versions) no longer leaves Deadpool prone until landing.
*Teleport Malfunction now causes a soft knockdown.
*Taunt Bubble stays out for full animation when canceled.

Jill:
*Arrow Kick travels farther.
*Arrow Kick can now be canceled into Feral Crouch on hit.
*Machine Gun Spray damage increased to 20,000 per bullet (22 bullets fire).
*Mad Beast is now a level 1.
*Double Knee Drop startup reduced by 10 frames across the board.
*Position Change is now +6 on hit.
*Fallen Prey now forced a neutral tech.
*Health increased to 950,000.

Assists: Arrow Kick, Somersault Kick, Sickle Kick

Nemesis:
*Fatal Mutation now has full invincibility and grabs in a 360 degree circle; places opponent in a crumple state; startup time reduced to 5 frames.
*Both Bioweapon Assault and Biohazard Rush recover sooner, allowing Nemesis to combo off of the ground bounce they cause.
*Biohazard Rush now has hyper armor on frame 1 until recovery; startup reduced to 8+1; vertical hitbox increased.
*s.S now has hyper armor on frames 3-15.
*Bioweapon Assault now better at predicting where rockets should fire.
*c.H super armor changed to frames 8-27.
*s.H super armor changed to frames 7-24.
*Launcher Slam L is now -1 on block.
*Minimum damage scaling for hypers changed to 60%.

Assists: Clothesline Rocket M, Deadly Reach, Launcher

C. Viper:
*C. Viper now flashes yellow when performing an EX attack.
*EX moves can no longer be canceled into one another.
*Minimum damage scaling on specials reduced to 20%.
*Level 3 Focus Attack cannot be canceled on whiff.

Assists: Thunder Knuckle H, Optic Laser, Burning Kick L.

 

[Renegade_Civil-War]

Last thought on the old batch.

If my vote as a super old school TO counts:

Chaos dimension needs to allow combo afterwards, it always has.

The "Shuma pose" really, REALLY needs to go.

Chris prone position needs special/hyper cancel.

The new batch?


It's 1am East Coast and I'm drunk so I won't get into it, but this:


Nemesis meter drain on tentecles: dat T Virus.

 

[Karsticles]

Last thought on the old batch.

If my vote as a super old school TO counts:

Chaos dimension needs to allow combo afterwards, it always has.

I added that.

The "Shuma pose" really, REALLY needs to go.

It's never actually a problem unless you throw out random hypers.

Chris prone position needs special/hyper cancel.

Oh right, we still need to resolve this. Should it be special/hyper cancelable, or jump cancelable? I vote the latter.

It's 1am East Coast and I'm drunk so I won't get into it, but this:
Nemesis meter drain on tentecles: dat T Virus.

No more of this gimmick.

 

[Dahbomb]

Meter drain on Tentacles please.

More characters should have meter draining moves. Shuma and Morrigan shouldn't have all the fun!

Oh right, we still need to resolve this. Should it be special/hyper cancelable, or jump cancelable? I vote the latter.

Hyper cancelable doesn't really make this over powered, it's really a question of how strong it is with special cancel. And you can't make it jump cancelable because his rising up animation when you press up is actually super useful for teleports.

 

[Sigmaah]

LMFAO!!!!!!

:>

FUCK LARIAT.

 

[Karsticles]

We should convince Viscant to get an account here and be a committee member. ;-D

 

[Dahbomb]

I think this is the stuff that we all seem to be agreeing on:

Deadpool: Make LVL3 into LVL1, make teleport malfunction soft knockdown, make Trigger Happy H into M or L version

Nemesis: Armor starts up faster on pretty much all moves that have it, safer block strings, better LVL3, hyper armor on Biohazard Rush, better scaling on hypers

Viper: Nerf FA, nerf EX Seismo, nerf scaling, give her Optic Blast assist


I don't know shit about Jill but there have always been two problems that seem to bring her down. Inability to combo off of air throws and inability to pressure (even remotely) enemies that are at SJ height. You guys really have to rectify some of these problems on her. Also if you want to make Mad Beast a LVL1 at least lower the timer on it. I know it's shit for a LVL3 but it does have block infinites!

 

[Azure J]

Comment away. We haven't had any official votes to solidify stuff. I am staying away from that because we are moving at such a fast pace that we could easily overlook something. I think it would be silly to place anything off limits from discussion "just because".

OK.

*Ground throw techs put one character-length distance between the two characters.

Should be changed to "Puts a guaranteed distance a half of a character length between the two characters". Or if you have a good/more technically inclined means of saying puts one whole Wolverine's worth of space in between the two, that's cool too.

The guaranteed line is to be specific since a grounded mid screen throw tech currently does put good distance between the two parties but a corner tech puts no space between the aggressor and defender. I'm also wondering about adding another clause to that particular change, namely:

"All character actions are restricted until full tech animation concludes"

Since different characters recover differently from a throw tech and those that recover fast are able to hold forward and keep their ground or gain some on the person still teching. Disparities between walk speeds or general grab range also add another layer of nuttiness there.

*X-Factor now prevents time outs while active.

This was definitely contested before, but as this is something off the collection of thoughts collected and nothing that was solidified I'll just say I don't agree and leave it there.

*Assists depart with invulnerability frames if the point character is hit before they appear on the screen.

Should be re-written to "depart with invulnerability frames if the point character is comboed before they appear on screen". I was initially big behind this idea, but I'm also wondering if there could be more to this to prevent people from sniping one another with multi-hit projectiles or the like when they sniff an assist call out to prevent the assist from coming into play.

I'm also not above striking the idea out.

*Incoming characters can choose which side of the current screen perspective they come in on by holding left or right; does not apply to Snapbacks.

Should be posted under "Debated". Might be another change that's just stuck in summary hell, but I definitely don't agree.

 

["God's Beard!"]

no focus cancel on whiff is my favorite Viper change. You still get all the craziness, but you better fucking be able to hit that shit.

I don't see the problem with making Arrow Kick pass through projectiles during active frames, 9 frames won't even beat most beams.

 

[Dahbomb]

I think Arrow Kick should be air OK.

 

[Frantic]

I'll stew on some Jill stuff. I don't know how to play her for shit, but I do know how to fight her so I can probably come up with something.

I'll scrounge up my old Deadpool change list to go along with whatever I think up for Jill. No real comments on Viper or Nemesis.

Spoiler

Although I feel like Optic Laser has a really enormous hitbox for its animation, as I get anti-aired by seemingly nothing sometimes.

 

[Karsticles]

Should be changed to "Puts a guaranteed distance a half of a character length between the two characters". Or if you have a good/more technically inclined means of saying puts one whole Wolverine's worth of space in between the two, that's cool too.

The guaranteed line is to be specific since a grounded mid screen throw tech currently does put good distance between the two parties but a corner tech puts no space between the aggressor and defender. I'm also wondering about adding another clause to that particular change, namely:

"All character actions are restricted until full tech animation concludes"

Since different characters recover differently from a throw tech and those that recover fast are able to hold forward and keep their ground or gain some on the person still teching. Disparities between walk speeds or general grab range also add another layer of nuttiness there.

How about this:
*Ground throw techs put more distance between the two teching characters.

This was definitely contested before, but as this is something off the collection of thoughts collected and nothing that was solidified I'll just say I don't agree and leave it there.

Alright.

Should be re-written to "depart with invulnerability frames if the point character is comboed before they appear on screen". I was initially big behind this idea, but I'm also wondering if there could be more to this to prevent people from sniping one another with multi-hit projectiles or the like when they sniff an assist call out to prevent the assist from coming into play.

It should definitely be hit, not comboed. Don't get hit if you want your assist to come out. Marvel 2 was the same way, and so is Skullgirls - it's not a broken idea in practice and has been tested.

Should be posted under "Debated". Might be another change that's just stuck in summary hell, but I definitely don't agree.

IIRC, all 4 committee members agreed to this.

 

["God's Beard!"]

@God's Beard: Level 3 Focus Attack is already uncancellable on whiff.

by hypers?

IIRC, all 4 committee members agreed to this.

I did not.

 

[Karsticles]

I think Arrow Kick should be air OK.

I like this - added.

I'll stew on some Jill stuff. I don't know how to play her for shit, but I do know how to fight her so I can probably come up with something.

I'll scrounge up my old Deadpool change list to go along with whatever I think up for Jill. No real comments on Viper or Nemesis.

Spoiler

Although I feel like Optic Laser has a really enormous hitbox for its animation, as I get anti-aired by seemingly nothing sometimes.

Added a vertical hitbox nerf to Optic Laser.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72271846]I did not.[/QUOTE]
Oh, right. Buh. The game would be better off with it. Especially since we wouldn't have to individually nerf every single unblockable setup.

 

[Dahbomb]

The side switch thing is EXTREMELY debatable even still.

Like now not only does Phoenix have a self activating Dark Phoenix super but now she also gets to choose which side she comes out on. That's too much of a get out of jail free card for a character like her.

I haven't really concentrated on system mechanics again because honestly character changes are safer and less likely to get heated discussion (like that Gonzo pop off lol). I really want to err on the side of caution for system changes because even small changes impact a larger portion of the cast. I say we look back on the system mechanics after Viscant has spoken.

The problem with Optic Blast is not the hit box but rather the active frames. The move seems to linger on for a long time after it has been fired off. I seem to remember looking at the hit box for it and it appeared to be fair.

 

["God's Beard!"]

How about giving C.Viper Dio Brando's optic laser? 38 frame startup, unblockable ^_^

Spoiler

cancels into time stop

 

[Karsticles]

The side switch thing is EXTREMELY debatable even still.

Like now not only does Phoenix have a self activating Dark Phoenix super but now she also gets to choose which side she comes out on. That's too much of a get out of jail free card for a character like her.

I haven't really concentrated on system mechanics again because honestly character changes are safer and less likely to get heated discussion (like that Gonzo pop off lol). I really want to err on the side of caution for system changes because even small changes impact a larger portion of the cast. I say we look back on the system mechanics after Viscant has spoken.

Then snap Phoenix in.

Gonzo is a half-wit.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Level 1 mad beast would be a fucking nightmare if it remained the same length.

As much as I'd like prone shot to be special cancelable....I think it's too strong. Super is fine.........especially if you give me that invincibility on sweep combo!!! It's just until the baton is put away :-(

 

[Professor Beef]

Oh, there were Frank changes being discussed? Don't tell me I'm the only one here who uses Frank. o__O

 

[Karsticles]

Level 1 mad beast would be a fucking nightmare if it remained the same length.

As much as I'd like prone shot to be special cancelable....I think it's too strong. Super is fine.........especially if you give me that invincibility on sweep combo!!! It's just until the baton is put away :-(

Explain your opinions.

Oh, there were Frank changes being discussed? Don't tell me I'm the only one here who uses Frank. o__O

Frank West:
*Snapshot now -5 on block, -3 on hit.
*Level 5 health buff removed.
*Chip damage reduced to 15%.
*Pick Me Up frame data now shares that of Dark Harmonizer.
*Tools of Survival hitstun increased slightly (ensures he can link 3 after a TAC).
*Bottoms Up's vomiting effect will be negated if Frank West hits an opponent.

Assists: Shopping Cart, Pick Me Up , Hammer Throw H

I wanted to use Frank West, but there aren't any ways to level him up with Dormammu outside of TACs or Liberations, and that's not reliable.

 

[Dahbomb]

BTW I am still against that Health nerf for Frank. Still seems super arbitrary.

 

[Azure J]

How about this:
*Ground throw techs put more distance between the two teching characters.

OK, although I'm a specifics freak so you might want to keep a means to communicate what I'm trying to detail handy too!

It should definitely be hit, not comboed. Don't get hit if you want your assist to come out. Marvel 2 was the same way, and so is Skullgirls - it's not a broken idea in practice and has been tested.

Marvel 2 was actually my reference point for this, but I was a little scared thinking about how many things in this game actually prove effective at full screen snipes.

IIRC, all 4 committee members agreed to this.

Wait really? Shit, I'm not paying enough attention. :lol

 

["God's Beard!"]

Seconded.

OK, I need for you to explain what this FA whiff thing is all about. Do you mean taking away the ability to use specials out of a Focus Attack startup (dear God no), something about the actual phases she goes through before doing the FA unblockable attack (Level 3 focus is when her ink stain effect goes deep black) or am I missing something? FA on hit isn't actually cancellable with anything other than X-Factor, you're confirming from the crumple state they're left in afterwards.

Huh, coulda sworn you could hyper out of there on whiff.

charge lvl3 focus -> fuck up -> ex seismo

doesn't work?

 

[Karsticles]

BTW I am still against that Health nerf for Frank. Still seems super arbitrary.

You never said you were against it before. -_- I don't even care about it, I didn't even know it existed until someone said something about it.

OK, although I'm a specifics freak so you might want to keep a means to communicate what I'm trying to detail handy too!

As long as Capcom understands that we want characters to have space after throw techs, I'm fine.

Marvel 2 was actually my reference point for this, but I was a little scared thinking about how many things in this game actually prove effective at full screen snipes.

It might make anti-air hypers more popular.

Wait really? Shit, I'm not paying enough attention. :lol

I forgot about GB.

 

[Azure J]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72272666]Huh, coulda sworn you could hyper out of there on whiff.

charge lvl3 focus -> fuck up -> ex seismo

doesn't work?[/QUOTE]

Nope. Literally uncancellable the moment she starts the actual attack animation (at any level of Focus charge).

 

[Dahbomb]

Wait really? Shit, I'm not paying enough attention. :lol

I am 50/50 on it, God's Beard said no and I don't know what Zissou said.

The start of round mechanics are also under debate.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Nope. Literally uncancellable the moment she starts the attack animation (at any level of Focus charge).

I'm a terrible keeper of frame data then.

 

[one_kill]

Deadpool:
Buff damage output
Buff health
Remove teleport malfunction
Make every move safe on block

 

[Azure J]

Deadpool:
Buff damage output
Buff health
Remove teleport malfunction
Make every move safe on block

Balance patch not Koryu Marvel patch.

 

[riskVSreward]

IIRC, all 4 committee members agreed to this.

Wait, so does that mean if I kill your point in the corner, you can just come in midscreen with your next character? Killing off all of the current incoming mixups and giving the incoming character positional advantage?

 

[Dahbomb]

Deadpool:
Buff damage output
Buff health
Remove teleport malfunction
Make every move safe on block

Wha... WHY?

Damage is fair for the character. Maybe buff his zoning/chip at most but his combo damage is definitely in the fair range.

His health is fine. Fast ground dash, small crouching hit box, double jump, Quick Slice to cross under stuff, top tier teleport and Ninja Gifts allow him to extend his air time more for a 900K character.

He has a safe overhead and 2 very fast, very good jabs (st.L and cr.L).

Wait, so does that mean if I kill your point in the corner, you can just come in midscreen with your next character? Killing off all of the current incoming mixups and giving the incoming character positional advantage?

Not really, if say you just killed someone in the right corner... the opponent will still come from the right side but it will be either from the front of you or from behind/above. You would still have enough time to react to it presumably, the character does not end up on the far left side of the screen if they switch side.. they are still close to the other character who is waiting for them but they just won't be in the corner if they decide to switch.

I feel like someone has to draw this on a diagram to make it clear because when someone reads it for the first time it sounds like you are switching corners or something.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I've been frauded. New change: level 3 focus now has an additional 30 frames of recovery, is dash cancelable on hit.

 

[Dahbomb]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72274081]I've been frauded. New change: level 3 focus now has an additional 30 frames of recovery, is dash cancelable on hit.[/QUOTE]
Fuck this candy ass FA change. Mine and Azure J's change is the best, no more getting unblockabled while incoming before you even touch the ground.

 

[Karsticles]

Wait, so does that mean if I kill your point in the corner, you can just come in midscreen with your next character?

Yes.

Killing off all of the current incoming mixups and giving the incoming character positional advantage?

No.

 

["God's Beard!"]

That makes it almost unusable on incoming...

Also, almost forgot. Bring back Jill's vanilla slide. It's so pitiful.