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[riskVSreward]

Not really, if say you just killed someone in the right corner... the opponent will still come from the right side but it will be either from the front of you or from behind/above. You would still have enough time to react to it presumably, the character does not end up on the far left side of the screen if they switch side.. they are still close to the other character who is waiting for them but they just won't be in the corner if they decide to switch.

I'm having trouble following you and can't perceive this in my head... You mean they always come in from the right side but they can travel around you and land next to you, putting you in the corner? Or they fly in from the left side super far to land next to you? No matter how I look at it, I cannot justify an incoming character getting to put you in the corner for free. Even if you could react to it, the options couldn't possibly be as good with your back in the corner.

Yes.


No.

You're saying they do come in from midscreen, so we have 2 people here who agreed on a change and have given me two radically different explanations.

 

[Karsticles]

+ Basically the Clothesline changes that God's Beard proposed, just written more clearly so everyone can understand why it makes sense.

Yeah, tell me what the fuck GB is talking about, because if it takes me 3 paragraphs to know what's going on, it's not going in the patch notes.

+ New angled down Rocket shot mapped to QCB + S

Added

+ Minimum scaling on Hypers upped from 30% to 50%

Should be 60% - check the math.

+ Launcher Slam M now hits overhead, can now be comboed off of regularly on standing opponents

I don't think this is needed when he has amazing command grabs.

Explain these changes to me and why they exist:

- Focus Attack unblockable when it connects against an air borne opponent now applies a minimum hit stun "strike" effect that they can recover out of. On the ground Focus Attack causes the same crumple.

- EX Seismo now does not cause a bounce, have to properly confirm off of it at the proper distance

 

[Karsticles]

I'm having trouble following you and can't perceive this in my head... You mean they always come in from the right side but they can travel around you and land next to you, putting you in the corner? Or they fly in from the left side super far to land next to you? No matter how I look at it, I cannot justify an incoming character getting to put you in the corner for free. Even if you could react to it, the options couldn't possibly be as good with your back in the corner.

You're saying they do come in from midscreen, so we have 2 people here who agreed on a change and have given me two radically different explanations.

When I say "left side of the screen", I mean your present perspective. When Dahbomb says "screen", he really means "stage". He should change his phrasing, because it confused me too.

 

[Professor Beef]

Frank West:
*Snapshot now -5 on block, -3 on hit.
*Level 5 health buff removed.
*Chip damage reduced to 15%.
*Pick Me Up frame data now shares that of Dark Harmonizer.
*Tools of Survival hitstun increased slightly (ensures he can link 3 after a TAC).
*Bottoms Up's vomiting effect will be negated if Frank West hits an opponent.

Assists: Shopping Cart, Pick Me Up , Hammer Throw H

I wanted to use Frank West, but there aren't any ways to level him up with Dormammu outside of TACs or Liberations, and that's not reliable.

To be perfectly honest, I don't really know what I want from a newer Frank. I think he's fine as is. The only things I disagree with are the things I have crossed off.

I crossed off the Snapshot line because I don't actually know what the frame data is so I can't tell if it's a nerf or not, and I think his Level 5 Health buff should stay as is. I would be willing to give that up if he is allowed to recover more health for each level gained, though.

 

[riskVSreward]

When I say "left side of the screen", I mean your present perspective. When Dahbomb says "screen", he really means "stage". He should change his phrasing, because it confused me too.

I could start a thread about how obtuse you are making fighting games right now. Not only can I not really understand this, still, after like 3 explanations, what I do get from it is completely nonsensical. Do you care to elaborate on why this change was proposed to begin with?

 

[Karsticles]

To be perfectly honest, I don't really know what I want from a newer Frank. I think he's fine as is. The only things I disagree with are the things I have crossed off.

I crossed off the Snapshot line because I don't actually know what the frame data is so I can't tell if it's a nerf or not, and I think his Level 5 Health buff should stay as is. I would be willing to give that up if he is allowed to recover more health for each level gained, though.

The health buff is iffy because level 5 Frank West already has a ton of great defensive tools:
-Barrel Roll
-Very invincible level 1
-Invincible AA assist
-Massive normals to control space with

Does he really need more health on top of all of that?

The Snapshot is a buff. It's currently something like -27 on block. I want it to have some presence in the neutral, so I made it -5.

I could start a thread about how obtuse you are making fighting games right now. Not only can I not really understand this, still, after like 3 explanations, what I do get from it is completely nonsensical. Do you care to elaborate on why this change was proposed to begin with?

Go start a thread, then.

It's pretty simple: from your current screen, the opponent can come in on your right side or your left side. It was proposed because the game is currently filled with ambiguous crossups on incoming that aren't skill-based to create and are impossible to block through the power of your eyes.

 

[Professor Beef]

The health buff is iffy because level 5 Frank West already has a ton of great defensive tools:
-Barrel Roll
-Very invincible level 1
-Invincible AA assist
-Massive normals to control space with

Does he really need more health on top of all of that?

The Snapshot is a buff. It's currently something like -27 on block. I want it to have some presence in the neutral, so I made it -5.

Yeah, that's why I said I'd be willing to trade it for more health recovery each time he gains a level.

And lol at that disadvantage on block.

 

[Dahbomb]

I crossed off the Snapshot line because I don't actually know what the frame data is so I can't tell if it's a nerf or not, and I think his Level 5 Health buff should stay as is. I would be willing to give that up if he is allowed to recover more health for each level gained, though.

The Snapshot changes are a buff. Right now Snapshot is -24 on HIT and -27 on block.

Here's my attempt at explaining the side switch mechanic with MS paint (again, this is being debated on and not really finalized):

The health buff is iffy because level 5 Frank West already has a ton of great defensive tools:
-Barrel Roll
-Very invincible level 1
-Invincible AA assist
-Massive normals to control space with

Does he really need more health on top of all of that?

The health buff differentiates from LVL4 Frank. Otherwise there is no real distinct advantage over Frank LVL4 outside of "more of the same". The health buff is really the only thing pushing people to go for that max Frank.

 

[Karsticles]

Yeah, that's why I said I'd be willing to trade it for more health recovery each time he gains a level.

And lol at that disadvantage on block.

Eh, I left the health buff in. No need to complicate things.

Yeah, camera shot is really bad...knowing the frame data makes me embarrassed that Frank players have trolled me with Snapshot spam.

 

[riskVSreward]

Go start a thread, then..

I think you need to patch your sarcasm detection.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Yeah, tell me what the fuck GB is talking about, because if it takes me 3 paragraphs to know what's going on, it's not going in the patch notes.

I got rid of Clothesline H because it sucks and made a new one that's safe but you can't combo off of. I just made the new one L and slid the others down because it's the weakest.

 

[Karsticles]

I think you need to patch your sarcasm detection.

An unexpected response does not necessitate that I misunderstood you.

 

[Azure J]

Explain these changes to me and why they exist:

I think his EX Seismo nerf is implying that EX Seismo launches like a normal Seismo (Seismo also does strike type states IIRC) and must be confirmed from accordingly. I don't feel like EX Seismo needs that drastic a nerf though. I agree with something a la a flash to suggest it's happening and as for the actual move specifics, maybe making it have lower frame advantage or no near instant standing recovery/only its jump canceled recovery (bringing it more in line with a regular Seismo in how safe you are afterwards).

The Focus Attack change (strike on anti-air) is to make it so that Viper doesn't molest the entire team from one hit doing whatever she likes because you're in a bad state after she connects with Focus level 3. The idea is she still has to be aware of how much time she has to get going and to also make players optimize themselves so as to learn either perfect setups or better confirms. (Basically with this change, the only legit confirm on AA focus is Thunder Knuckle H into staircase reps.)

 

[Frantic]

.

So Acid Rain becomes/stays the best incoming meaty/mixup option in the game?

I'm okay with that.

Also Zero's body disappearing is going to cause a bazillion more incoming glitches I bet.

 

[Dahbomb]

Yeah, tell me what the fuck GB is talking about, because if it takes me 3 paragraphs to know what's going on, it's not going in the patch notes.

It's like a rescaling of the Clothesline but with the H one removed because it's garbage and effectively moved across the board (L becomes M, M becomes H, old H removed, new L incoporated). The new L version is his "safe" block string move now (safe but no combo off of it), the M version is the combo hit confirm (it's unsafe against throws but leads into combos) and the H version is the situational move against other big bodies. There is no actual animation change going on here.

It doesn't matter if it takes 3 paragraphs or 3 pages to explain... a good, thoughtful change is a good, thoughtful change.

Basically how you would put it in patch notes is the same as in DOTA 2: You show the old Clotheslines framedata and then you show the new Clotheslines framedata.

Trust me I was confused on this at first too but when he explained it, it made perfect sense.

 

[Professor Beef]

Also Zero's body disappearing is going to cause a bazillion more incoming glitches I bet.

Make it so that his body only disappears after the teammate comes in, just like how it worked with Mega Man and Strider in the previous games.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Put that in concise patch note form.

• Clothesline Rocket L: 26 frame start up, 0 on block(no rocket, soft knockdown), previous L and M versions moved to M and H, respectively

It's perfect because the M and H versions are true blockstrings off his H and 2H, but L the version has a 4-frame reversal gap but is safe on block. But you might guess he's gonna do L clothesline and use an armored move or command grab instead.

 

[riskVSreward]

Here's my attempt at explaining the side switch mechanic with MS paint (again, this is being debated on and not really finalized):

.

Ok so now that I can conceptualize this, I still think its ridiculous. An incoming mixup is earned by killing a dude, you are basically taking away all strong mixup options. What people would do now is sit in the middle of the visible playing screen so they can react to which side someone comes in on, but either way it will be the better option to come in midscreen everytime unless they commit to a midscreen setup in advance. I'm actually not opposed to the reasoning, but this just doesn't seem like a well though out plan.

So you lose a character and can choose to come in in front of me and in the corner, or behind me and midscreen.. Until you appear on the screen I'm gonna be facing right, so how can I set anything up if I know youre gonna come in behind me? My projectiles and assists all travel in front of me... I try to time a Jam Session on incoming and whoops, it can only go ahead of me, into the empty corner because the dude switched sides. When would you not switch sides? Even if you get combo'd/mixed up midscreen its almost always not as dangerous as getting mixed in the corner.

This makes missiles even better.

An unexpected response does not necessitate that I misunderstood you.

Not because it's unexpected, no. Because words have context and meaning, yes.

 

[Professor Beef]

Yeah, that "choose a side" thing seems needlessly complicated, even with the drawing.

 

[Karsticles]

Ok so now that I can conceptualize this, I still think its ridiculous. An incoming mixup is earned by killing a dude, you are basically taking away all strong mixup options. What people would do now is sit in the middle of the visible playing screen so they can react to which side someone comes in on, but either way it will be the better option to come in midscreen everytime unless they commit to a midscreen setup in advance. I'm actually not opposed to the reasoning, but this just doesn't seem like a well though out plan.

So you lose a character and can choose to come in in front of me and in the corner, or behind me and midscreen.. Until you appear on the screen I'm gonna be facing right, so how can I set anything up if I know youre gonna come in behind me? My projectiles and assists all travel in front of me... I try to time a Jam Session on incoming and whoops, it can only go ahead of me, into the empty corner because the dude switched sides. When would you not switch sides? Even if you get combo'd/mixed up midscreen its almost always not as dangerous as getting mixed in the corner.

This makes missiles even better.

Weaker incoming mix-ups are better than having to make 100% guesses on incoming or suffer another combo after you just lost a character. If you haven't noticed, whoever kills a character first in this game tends to win, and it's because characters rarely survive incoming mix-ups. They're just too strong. A game where both players have a strong chance at playing all 3 of their characters is a superior game. The incoming pressure is still there, it's just not stupid.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72276926]

• Clothesline Rocket L: 26 frame start up, 0 on block(no rocket, soft knockdown), previous L and M versions moved to M and H, respectively

It's perfect because the M and H versions are true blockstrings off his H and 2H, but L the version has a 4-frame reversal gap but is safe on block. But you might guess he's gonna do L clothesline and use an armored move or command grab instead.[/QUOTE]
Well done.

 

[Dahbomb]

So Acid Rain becomes/stays the best incoming meaty/mixup option in the game?.

What this change does is that it shifts the game from "corner mix ups" to "mid screen mix ups". So characters who can do better mid screen mix ups (like Dante as mentioned) will excel more as compared to character who have mediocre mid screen mix ups (most of the big bodies). Definitely nerfs Zero dramatically, as if he hasn't been nerfed a lot already. Decent size buff to Vergil as he is a really beastly mid screen mix up character. Obviously destroys unblockable set ups.

The reason why I say these characters are at an advantage is because no one is going to want to stay in the corner after death... they would rather take their chances out of it. If you die at mid screen it's at least a legitimate choice you can make but who in their right mind would want to come in with their backs towards the corner? Even if the opponents thinks you are not stupid enough to come in through the corner, he will soon realize that you were dumb enough and then basically contain you in the corner for more mix ups.

So you lose a character and can choose to come in in front of me and in the corner, or behind me and midscreen.. Until you appear on the screen I'm gonna be facing right, so how can I set anything up if I know youre gonna come in behind me? My projectiles and assists all travel in front of me... I try to time a Jam Session on incoming and whoops, it can only go ahead of me, into the empty corner because the dude switched sides. When would you not switch sides? Even if you get combo'd/mixed up midscreen its almost always not as dangerous as getting mixed in the corner.

The screen would change perspective (ie your character would face the correct way) when the incoming character changes their direction so the character who is waiting will have time to react and adjust.

I do however agree with your last point.. I cannot see the merit in picking the corner over picking a better mid screen-ish position. Less damaging combos and less powerful mix ups all around.

 

[riskVSreward]

Weaker incoming mix-ups are better than having to make 100% guesses on incoming or suffer another combo after you just lost a character. If you haven't noticed, whoever kills a character first in this game tends to win, and it's because characters rarely survive incoming mix-ups. They're just too strong. A game where both players have a strong chance at playing all 3 of their characters is a superior game. The incoming pressure is still there, it's just not stupid.

I agree with your intent, not with your execution. This whole switching sides business is too jarring and half-baked.

Still, the strong mixups aren't that bad if you take away individual characters derpiness.

I also don't like this crusade against luck. Luck is hype, Luck can be fun.

 

[Karsticles]

What this change does is that it shifts the game from "corner mix ups" to "mid screen mix ups". So characters who can do better mid screen mix ups (like Dante as mentioned) will excel more as compared to character who have mediocre mid screen mix ups (most of the big bodies). Definitely nerfs Zero dramatically, as if he hasn't been nerfed a lot already. Decent size buff to Vergil as he is a really beastly mid screen mix up character. Obviously destroys unblockable set ups.

The reason why I say these characters are at an advantage is because no one is going to want to stay in the corner after death... they would rather take their chances out of it. If you die at mid screen it's at least a legitimate choice you can make but who in their right mind would want to come in with their backs towards the corner? Even if the opponents thinks you are not stupid enough to come in through the corner, he will soon realize that you were dumb enough and then basically contain you in the corner for more mix ups.

There would be some indication of which side the character is coming in a little early through the current point character swapping sides. I don't think Acid Rain can cover both sides.

Also, if everyone thinks getting out of the corner is the best thing, then players will start to go for the corner because it's less expected. It corrects itself. You can also force players back into the corner quite easily a lot of the time. Most characters have a way to run around someone on incoming. That plus an assist, and the character is back toward the corner already, but the incoming mix-up wasn't 100% random like it is right now.

I agree with your intent, not with your execution. This whole switching sides business is too jarring and half-baked.

Still, the strong mixups aren't that bad if you take away individual characters derpiness.

Nearly every character has a derpy incoming mix-up that's 100% ambiguous. Trust me on that. I thought Spider-man wasn't too bad, but then I learned that Spider Sting can be kara-canceled to make it cross under on incoming. It's not even possible for me to tell which way it's going to hit because, like Violent Axe, it just happens too fast.

You still get incoming mix-ups with this, you just don't get to sit underneath your opponent and 50/50 with a crossunder that neither of you knows the result of.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Explain your opinions.

Well I explained the sweep combo invincibility, it's just nice. Being able to prone shot into magnum and machine gun would just be rough to deal with. Prone shot already does a lot of chip and you can shoot mighty fast. There's been times where I'll play Chris/Haggar/Doom or sentinel and people just won't know what to do about prone shot since it goes under everything and they are having a hard time getting out of block stun because it shoots so damn fast. On top of that you can call assists while you're spamming shots. If someone ever got close then I would just call Haggar last second. But now I can special cancel into grenades too......lol...you're fucked. Since there aren't many Chris players out there, people don't realize how good that move already is. Don't get me wrong, I'll take it....I just think it'll be too strong.

As for Jill, she can do a lot of chip damage during mad beast and she's pretty impossible to block. It being a level 1 means people will finally put in the work to learn how to control her. Timer should definitely be reduced.....or not. I'd like to see Jill start doing some serious work.

 

[Professor Beef]

I wanna make a new team, but I don't like the majority of the cast. Team Kusoru is fun, but there are times when I wanna use something else. The only characters that I like are

- Joe
- Frank
- Ryu
- Hulk
- Nova
- Ghost Rider
- Sentinel

I want a new team, and maybe it's because I'm tired ATM, but I don't know how to make some of these characters mesh well on a team.

 

[Karsticles]

Well I explained the sweep combo invincibility, it's just nice. Being able to prone shot into magnum and machine gun would just be rough to deal with. Prone shot already does a lot of chip and you can shoot mighty fast. There's been times where I'll play Chris/Haggar/Doom or sentinel and people just won't know what to do about prone shot since it goes under everything and they are having a hard time getting out of block stun because it shoots so damn fast. On top of that you can call assists while you're spamming shots. If someone ever got close then I would just call Haggar last second. But now I can special cancel into grenades too......lol...you're fucked. Since there aren't many Chris players out there, people don't realize how good that move already is. Don't get me wrong, I'll take it....I just think it'll be too strong.

Thoughts on this gents?

As for Jill, she can do a lot of chip damage during mad beast and she's pretty impossible to block. It being a level 1 means people will finally put in the work to learn how to control her. Timer should definitely be reduced.....or not. I'd like to see Jill start doing some serious work.

Jill can't block during Mad Beast, though. So I think the crazy movement and such is worthwhile. It's a balanced utility hyper with pros and cons. I still don't think it's worth 2 bars, but it might be worth 1.

I wanna make a new team, but I don't like the majority of the cast. Team Kusoru is fun, but there are times when I wanna use something else. The only characters that I like are

- Joe
- Frank
- Ryu
- Hulk
- Nova
- Ghost Rider
- Sentinel

I want a new team, and maybe it's because I'm tired ATM, but I don't know how to make some of these characters mesh well on a team.

Nova/Sentinel/Ryu
Nova/Frank/Sentinel
Joe/Sentinel/Nova
Ghost Rider/Hulk/Sentinel

 

[Professor Beef]

Joe/Sent/Nova? How does THAT work?

And I actually used GR/Hulk/Sentinel as a troll team, but I didn't think it was actually legit lol.

 

[Dahbomb]

Also, if everyone thinks getting out of the corner is the best thing, then players will start to go for the corner because it's less expected. It corrects itself. You can also force players back into the corner quite easily a lot of the time. Most characters have a way to run around someone on incoming. That plus an assist, and the character is back toward the corner already, but the incoming mix-up wasn't 100% random like it is right now.

If there's a "significant indication" as to which side the person is coming from then the person who is waiting will just be like "oh he is coming from the corner... lol what a dumb ass time to pressure him/mix him up in the corner".

If there is an indication then a mix up will be forced and there will be guesses involved. You aren't changing the arc of the incoming character so they will have to deal with a super ambiguous cross up.

I think without actually experimenting with this feature it's hard to comment how it would really work out. Just a lot of guess work here. Sure, incoming mix ups would not be as dreadful but this would change up character tiers significantly. Stuff like Vajra + Teleport teleport would be the best choice in the game because there is no checking to see where the guy comes from, you just let the assist and teleport do the work for you.

You still get incoming mix-ups with this, you just don't get to sit underneath your opponent and 50/50 with a crossunder that neither of you knows the result of.

You act like this would change stuff like Violent Axe ambiguous cross ups. That stuff still works mid screen. It's not a corner only thing. It's purely a trajectory thing and that aspect of it is not changed with this new feature.

Well I explained the sweep combo invincibility, it's just nice. Being able to prone shot into magnum and machine gun would just be rough to deal with. Prone shot already does a lot of chip and you can shoot mighty fast. There's been times where I'll play Chris/Haggar/Doom or sentinel and people just won't know what to do about prone shot since it goes under everything and they are having a hard time getting out of block stun because it shoots so damn fast. On top of that you can call assists while you're spamming shots. If someone ever got close then I would just call Haggar last second. But now I can special cancel into grenades too......lol...you're fucked. Since there aren't many Chris players out there, people don't realize how good that move already is. Don't get me wrong, I'll take it....I just think it'll be too strong.

If you cancel Prone Shot into Machine gun then you are out of Prone shot. You then have to go back to Prone position to do it again. Although Prone plus Grenade would be sort of silly so I concede... you can remove special cancel on Prone shot but at least make it hyper cancelable.

 

[Karsticles]

Joe/Sent/Nova? How does THAT work?

And I actually used GR/Hulk/Sentinel as a troll team, but I didn't think it was actually legit lol.

Use Gravimetric Pulse H assist like Dieminion uses Eye of Agamotto.

If there's a "significant indication" as to which side the person is coming from then the person who is waiting will just be like "oh he is coming from the corner... lol what a dumb ass time to pressure him/mix him up in the corner".

If there is an indication then a mix up will be forced and there will be guesses involved. You aren't changing the arc of the incoming character so they will have to deal with a super ambiguous cross up.

I think without actually experimenting with this feature it's hard to comment how it would really work out. Just a lot of guess work here. Sure, incoming mix ups would not be as dreadful but this would change up character tiers significantly. Stuff like Vajra + Teleport teleport would be the best choice in the game because there is no checking to see where the guy comes from, you just let the assist and teleport do the work for you.

I'm going to nerf Vajra, though. :-D

The player won't have time to set up and ambiguous cross-up. It's enough time to set up pressure that could lead to a hit, but not am ambiguous cross-up. That's the goal.

You act like this would change stuff like Violent Axe ambiguous cross ups. That stuff still works mid screen. It's not a corner only thing. It's purely a trajectory thing and that aspect of it is not changed with this new feature.

My point is that the point character won't have time to set the ambiguous crossup up.

 

[riskVSreward]

Nearly every character has a derpy incoming mix-up that's 100% ambiguous. Trust me on that. I thought Spider-man wasn't too bad, but then I learned that Spider Sting can be kara-canceled to make it cross under on incoming. It's not even possible for me to tell which way it's going to hit because, like Violent Axe, it just happens too fast.

You still get incoming mix-ups with this, you just don't get to sit underneath your opponent and 50/50 with a crossunder that neither of you knows the result of.

I'm not buying it, some characters definitely have too much derp, but you can't act like theres this prevalent incoming mixup problem in the game, show me the receipts. Show me the footage. I've watched every major in this games life and not once have I ever thought, or heard any pro think out loud, that incoming mixups in the corner are too powerful and should be nerfed. Zero shit? Sure, Wolverine shit? Ok. The entire cast? Not buying it.

Even if that were 100% true and I'm completely wrong, your worst luck at any time is a coin flip and as a poker player I can tell you those odds aren't that bad.

 

[Frantic]

Make incoming like that one glitch video. Character dies and next character comes in instantly! No more ambiguous mix up attempts and the ability to punish your teammate killer's recovery!

Spoiler

I'm going to sleep on Jill changes. Thinking about Jill brought up some bad memories of 20/20/20/20/20 situations.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Since we're looking at Nemesis right now and he's one of my focus characters(moreso than shuma lol):

Nemesis:
*Fatal Mutation now has full invincibility and grabs in a 360 degree circle; places opponent in a crumple state; startup time reduced to 5 frames.
*Both Bioweapon Assault and Biohazard Rush recover sooner, allowing Nemesis to combo off of the ground bounce they cause.
*Biohazard Rush now has hyper armor on frame 1 until recovery; startup reduced to 8+1; vertical hitbox increased.
*s.S now has hyper armor on frames 3-15.
*Bioweapon Assault now better at predicting where rockets should fire.
*c.H super armor changed to frames 8-27.
*s.H super armor changed to frames 7-24.
*Launcher Slam L is now -1 on block.
*Minimum damage scaling for hypers changed to 60%.

Assists: Clothesline Rocket M, Deadly Reach, Launcher

Are you saying Fatal Mutation anti-airs?

Be careful about post-Bioweapon Assault combos, wallbounce and assists could mean his combos are potentially twice as long now. And he potentially gets two hypers per combo, which will now do more damage than the other characters' hypers on your team.

I don't agree with hyper armor on S, your Hs are probably a little more than he deserves, but not unreasonable. But S already has massive hitbox advantage and is safe in a lot of odd situations. And nobody in the game has a hyper armor normal. On top of that, Nemesis is more of a mixup character than Hulk or Sentinel, and he has good tools at most ranges. He doesn't need to out armor the pure heavies.

Why make Launcher Slam that safe? It's not a blockstring move, it's a reset move. I think the new Clothesline solves this issue regardless.

Hyper scaling is a good change. Big body doing 100k with a bunch of rockets makes me sad.

I like Launcher Slam M assist over S, just let it have its armor.

 

[Dahbomb]

The player won't have time to set up and ambiguous cross-up. It's enough time to set up pressure that could lead to a hit, but not am ambiguous cross-up. That's the goal.

You don't need time to set up that cross up, you need positioning. You only need time to set up cross ups that require assists.

I guarantee you though that your change will NOT take out ambiguous cross up/mix ups.

Nerf on Vajra? Please no.....

I'm not buying it, some characters definitely have too much derp, but you can't act like theres this prevalent incoming mixup problem in the game, show me the receipts. Show me the footage. I've watched every major in this games life and not once have I ever thought, or heard any pro think out loud, that incoming mixups in the corner are too powerful and should be nerfed. Zero shit? Sure, Wolverine shit? Ok. The entire cast? Not buying it.

Pretty sure every top player has talked about incoming mix ups in the game. Viscant is going to do a big blog entry tomorrow and you can bet your ass he will try to come up with some way to mitigate incoming mix ups. His solution may not be the most elegant but he will try to raise the issue and it certainly is the issue. I will fully admit that the solution presented from us at GAF is not elegant either but it wasn't conceived out of "hey man I am tired of blocking all these mix ups... lets change it!"

Zero mix ups aren't absurd because they are a simple 50/50s... that's just a Haggar Violent axe mix up. Zero mix ups are multi layered 50/50s where he can dish out 50/50s even 30/30/30s when you start taking into consideration throw and fuzzy overheads. He can easily do 4 mix ups in a row in the corner with Jam Session. So really the chance of escaping an optimized Zero corner mix ups is 1/16. I don't know about you... but I definitely don't like them odds.

 

[Karsticles]

I'm not buying it, some characters definitely have too much derp, but you can't act like theres this prevalent incoming mixup problem in the game, show me the receipts. Show me the footage. I've watched every major in this games life and not once have I ever thought, or heard any pro think out loud, that incoming mixups in the corner are too powerful and should be nerfed. Zero shit? Sure, Wolverine shit? Ok. The entire cast? Not buying it.

Even if that were 100% true and I'm completely wrong, your worst luck at any time is a coin flip and as a poker player I can tell you those odds aren't that bad.

Well, the goal of the patch discussion is to change the rules and make the game better. A coin flip is good for your poker standards, but it's not good by competitive fighting game standards.

Name a character that you don't think has an ambiguous setup.

Make incoming like that one glitch video. Character dies and next character comes in instantly! No more ambiguous mix up attempts and the ability to punish your teammate killer's recovery!

Spoiler

I'm going to sleep on Jill changes. Thinking about Jill brought up some bad memories of 20/20/20/20/20 situations.

Then certain hypers would end up unsafe ways of killing opponents (Spell of Vishanti, etc.).

You don't need time to set up that cross up, you need positioning. You only need time to set up cross ups that require assists.

I guarantee you though that your change will NOT take out ambiguous cross up/mix ups.

Nerf on Vajra? Please no.....

You need time to get into that positioning.

I just plan on Vajra being a soft knockdown. A little less derp. Wesker shouldn't get to teleport around and get 50/50s just because you're in the air.

 

[Azure J]

The only Vajra nerf I better see in here (especially with everyone becoming able to wonderfully anti-air it into huge damage lately) is decreased knockdown time on hit.

I'm watching you. >:|

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

If you cancel Prone Shot into Machine gun then you are out of Prone shot. You then have to go back to Prone position to do it again. Although Prone plus Grenade would be sort of silly so I concede... you can remove special cancel on Prone shot but at least make it hyper cancelable.

Well yeah I understand that you'd come out of prone shot but with the right assists that wouldn't matter. Call drones machine gun and back to prone. hyper cancelable I will definitely take though. That would certainly get me out of some shit situations.

 

[Dahbomb]

Soft knockdown Vajra will never go through here, I guarantee you will be out voted on it. Unless you are allowed to combo before it drops to the ground because otherwise people aren't going to pick the character. No one picks the assist when your character can't combo off of the hard knockdown... I mean who the hell uses Vajra with Magneto?

You need time to get into that positioning.

So you are saying players aren't going to have time to get into position for a mix up? I think your mechanic is getting faultier and faultier the more you try to explain it because if you can't get into position or have enough time to set up the mix up that who is going to even have real mix ups aside from the Vajra folks?

 

[riskVSreward]

Yes.

Way to have a discussion... Was this the NeoGAF balance list or the Karsticles list? I don't know who's on your committee but it seems to me you're the only one defending this so vigorously.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

The only Vajra nerf I better see in here (especially with everyone becoming able to wonderfully anti-air it into huge damage lately) is decreased knockdown time on hit.

I'm watching you. >:|

Yeah seriously. I'll get on board with making it easier to punish once he lands, but that is fucking it.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Yes.


I like Launcher Slam M assist over S, just let it have its armor.
But it's hyper armor!

I dunno, man. This is feeling a bit ridiculous to me. I don't know if hyper armor is a real solution, any more than sticking projectile invulnerability on moves.

We'll decide what Sentinel needs incentivizing later, but I don't think armored S is a priority for Nemesis. It's already a good move.

We've made his armor mixups more reliable, we gave him a safe blockstring with clothesline L, and we improved his damage scaling. Those were the three big problems.

We don't need a command grab xx level 3 god of option selects on top of that, do we?

 

[Karsticles]

Way to have a discussion... Was this the NeoGAF balance list or the Karsticles list? I don't know who's on your committee but it seems to me you're the only one defending this so vigorously.

What are you going on about? He asked me a yes or no question about how to interpret my suggested changes, and I answered it.

And apparently you think I'm not having a discussion, but you also think I defend my ideas too vigorously. What the hell is wrong with you?

Soft knockdown Vajra will never go through here, I guarantee you will be out voted on it. Unless you are allowed to combo before it drops to the ground because otherwise people aren't going to pick the character. No one picks the assist when your character can't combo off of the hard knockdown... I mean who the hell uses Vajra with Magneto?

You can combo as the character falls; that was my plan. I just see Vajra as the new Vanilla Lariat. Be a complete moron and get free combos sometimes.

So you are saying players aren't going to have time to get into position for a mix up? I think your mechanic is getting faultier and faultier the more you try to explain it because if you can't get into position or have enough time to set up the mix up that who is going to even have real mix ups aside from the Vajra folks?

I didn't say you can't get into position for a mix-up, I said you can't get into position for the amibguous crossunder.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72280626]I dunno, man. This is feeling a bit ridiculous to me. I don't know if hyper armor is a real solution, any more than sticking projectile invulnerability on moves.[/quote]
I don't mean it as a solution; I just thought it would be a nice feature. I could take it or leave it, especially if we add in Dahbomb's qcb.S move for Nemesis.

We've made his armor mixups more reliable, we gave him a safe blockstring with clothesline L, and we improved his damage scaling. Those were the three big problems.

Clothesline L is +0, though. I don't think that's really safe for a big body. Maybe we should make Launcher Slam L +2 or something.

We don't need a command grab xx level 3 god of option selects on top of that, do we?

He spreads tentacles out all over the place - it's weird that it only hits in front of him. It would have a small vertical hitbox just around his body, and the startup could be a little higher than other command grabs.

 

[Dahbomb]

I didn't say you can't get into position for a mix-up, I said you can't get into position for the amibguous crossunder.

Please explain to me what "mix up" you can do in this new feature (minus Vajra) and how you can't also do an "ambiguous crossunder" with examples. Because really... ambiguous cross under and mix up are the same thing... an ambiguous crossunder IS a mix up.

 

[Azure J]

Soft knockdown Vajra will never go through here, I guarantee you will be out voted on it. Unless you are allowed to combo before it drops to the ground because otherwise people aren't going to pick the character. No one picks the assist when your character can't combo off of the hard knockdown... I mean who the hell uses Vajra with Magneto?

The sad part is that thinking about it, there's no precedent or explanation I could give or cite to say why Vajra shouldn't have its hard knockdown state removed. As it stands, I use the assist more for neutral coverage and a set of pretty stupid Dante mixups off a blocked Stinger. All of those would remain intact (with the exception of no pickups from a Dante throw anymore making one segment of my pressure with him invalid and no minefield zoning with Viper), but there's some part of me that's fundamentally against such a highly telegraphed assist getting its "thing" removed. Even though in a lot of situations, that assist is in fact fucking stupid. :lol

Changes to the assist system should definitely tone down a ton of the derp behind most uses of that assist though. (LOL super jump height Vajra call post air tech)

Yeah seriously. I'll get on board with making it easier to punish once he lands, but that is fucking it.

I actually had this too but rescinded on it because of how fast the meta evolved. Don't you even dare try to use that assist raw nowadays. People have full combos/punishes for it and the results are almost always lethal for Strider.

Now if only people got that motivated against Hidden Missiles assist...

 

[Azure J]

.

 

[Karsticles]

Please explain to me what "mix up" you can do in this new feature (minus Vajra) and how you can't also do an "ambiguous crossunder" with examples. Because really... ambiguous cross under and mix up are the same thing... an ambiguous crossunder IS a mix up.

Right, ambiguous crossunders are a type of mix-up. I am saying you can't do that type of mix-up, but other mix-ups are still very possible.

Example of what you cannot do anymore:
Sit under an incoming character and raw launcher for a 50/50.

Example of what you still can do:
Run up and j.HS for a throw option select.
Call a beam and Berserker Slash.
Shoot out Web Throw to try and catch an air dash while calling Hidden Missiles, and then use the missiles for pressure if your attempt failed.

The sad part is that thinking about it, there's no precedent or explanation I could give or cite to say why Vajra shouldn't have its hard knockdown state removed. As it stands, I use the assist more for neutral coverage and a set of pretty stupid Dante mixups off a blocked Stinger. All of those would remain intact (with the exception of no pickups from a Dante throw anymore making one segment of my pressure with him invalid and no minefield zoning with Viper), but there's some part of me that's fundamentally against such a highly telegraphed assist getting its "thing" removed. Even though in a lot of situations, that assist is in fact fucking stupid. :lol

Wouldn't you lose Jam Session + Vajra AA setups?

 

[Dahbomb]

We are now getting way ahead of ourselves here with this Strider talk. Let's keep the discussion to the 4 characters or the system mechanics.

Run up and j.HS for a throw option select.
Call a beam and Berserker Slash.
Shoot out Web Throw to try and catch an air dash while calling Hidden Missiles, and then use the missiles for pressure if your attempt failed.

The bolded aren't a mix up because you just block them straight forward no guessing is involved. The second one isn't a meaty mix up and no Wolverine player goes for it on incoming because it can be air dashed out of and escaped.

But you are saying that I have enough time to run up and do j.HS but I can't just run up and do dash up Violent Axe under someone? Or better yet I can't do wave dash with Vergil and just launch you from underneath?

Something isn't adding up here. Either you DO have enough time to do cross unders or you don't.

 

[smurfx]

i think vajra is fine the way it is now.

 

[Azure J]

Wouldn't you lose Jam Session + Vajra AA setups?

Yep. Just remembered that too. Twister + Vajra anti-mashers on incoming and Carats + Vajra outside of combos is gone too. Fuck. :lol

Dah's right though, back on topic.

Edit: Damn, even smurf vouches for current Vajra...

 

[riskVSreward]

What are you going on about? He asked me a yes or no question about how to interpret my suggested changes, and I answered it..

You quoted 3 different people and just put "yes" then edited in a response to me, so ignore that.

Look at all the explanation and fine tuning you have to give to justify that single sentence in the master list. You're acting like it's the perfect solution and people bring up a bunch of flaws that you need to expand on your idea to make them less of a big deal. You need to flesh out every minor detail in advance and not just be able to knock down the pins as they come, as if you already had the foresight and that the one sentence explains all of the finer details.

I still contend that you can just address the problem characters without making such a drastic change.

 

[Frantic]

I used to be okay with Vajra being soft-knockdown, but it's slowly becoming more easily sniped and dodge that the idea of it being soft-knockdown no longer sits well with me. I actually use Vajra a lot less than Low Voltage nowadays because I've been having it get smacked around. I pretty much only use it in specific setups where Vajra will be safe than I do just in neutral. You're basically throwing a 750k character at your opponent every time you call it, so the payoff has to be good.

That's all I'll say atm, though. And if smurf thinks it's okay(and smurf hates teleports), that's gotta say something!