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[Dahbomb]

Basically if in this new mechanic, a Zero player does not have enough time to do jump Raikousen -> cross up -> Buster as a 50/50 then this new mechanic sucks because it kills most of the decent incoming mix ups in the game. If he does have time to do it then this system still presents enough time for ambiguous cross unders because someone like Vergil can still easily Round Trip meaty you and then do a dirty cross under.

Honestly let's just wait until Viscant posts his blog before touching on system mechanics again. I know for sure he will touch up on incoming character stuff. His solution will most likely not be good (he talked about altering height and trajectory of incoming, gives characters a few more options and leads to less ambiguity) or air tight but I am more interested in his reasoning.

 

[riskVSreward]

Basically if in this new mechanic, a Zero player does not have enough time to do jump Raikousen -> cross up -> Buster as a 50/50 then this new mechanic sucks because it kills most of the decent incoming mix ups in the game. If he does have time to do it then this system still presents enough time for ambiguous cross unders because someone like Vergil can still easily Round Trip meaty you and then do a dirty cross under.

Right. The logic is "Zero mixups are unfair, nerf all mixups."

 

[Karsticles]

I used to be okay with Vajra being soft-knockdown, but it's slowly becoming more easily sniped and dodge that the idea of it being soft-knockdown no longer sits well with me. I actually use Vajra a lot less than Low Voltage nowadays because I've been having it get smacked around. I pretty much only use it in specific setups where Vajra will be safe than I do just in neutral. You're basically throwing a 750k character at your opponent every time you call it, so the payoff has to be good.

That's all I'll say atm, though. And if smurf thinks it's okay(and smurf hates teleports), that's gotta say something!

One last jib: don't forget that damage is dropping by 20%, so Vajra just got a whole lot less risky.

Basically if in this new mechanic, a Zero player does not have enough time to do jump Raikousen -> cross up -> Buster as a 50/50 then this new mechanic sucks because it kills most of the decent incoming mix ups in the game. If he does have time to do it then this system still presents enough time for ambiguous cross unders because someone like Vergil can still easily Round Trip meaty you and then do a dirty cross under.

Zero has time to dash forward, j.H, and then Raikousen cross up out of that. Probably not enough time to just blanket Raikousen.

Edit: Then again, Raikousen goes pretty far. Maybe, but it would be obvious at that range.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Nemesis, Thor and Trish are the three characters I was really looking forward to working on.

Clothesline L is +0, though. I don't think that's really safe for a big body. Maybe we should make Launcher Slam L +2 or something.

I think Launcher Slam is an arbitrary pick to make safe. Clothesline L shouldn't be more than +0 anyway. It's like you like to say, he failed the mixup. He's safe, but now he has to get back out to midrange to try again. If you want to push people out, taking a risk on S instead of canceling might be better.

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72283021]Nemesis, Thor and Trish are the three characters I was really looking forward to working on.[/quote]
The only characters I don't look forward to are the ones that are really messed up and I don't know a lot about. Basically, Iron Fist...

I think Launcher Slam is an arbitrary pick to make safe. Clothesline L shouldn't be more than +0 anyway. It's like you like to say, he failed the mixup. He's safe, but now he has to get back out to midrange to try again. If you want to push people out, taking a risk on S instead of canceling might be better.

I think that everyone should be able to end their blockstrings on good terms, though. Every character who can't do this is considered low tier.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I think that everyone should be able to end their blockstrings on good terms, though. Every character who can't do this is considered low tier.

Nemesis is kind of weird, though. His mid-to-far pressure is really strong for a big body, I think his armor mixups are kind of an in-and-out kind of thing. I'll do +2 on Clothesline L, but that gives him a command grab mixup on top of two other mixups. It's not like he can't jump back S or whatever with +0.

 

[Dahbomb]

So it sounds like you have just enough time to meaty someone with a normal or a long ranged move on incoming but not enough to wait for them to come down and land into an ambiguous cross under mix up (provided they have an escape).

Basically this effectively buffs double jumpers/triple jumpers and air dashers a metric ton because if you don't meaty them they will have enough time to escape an attempted mix up especially mid screen. A character with no incoming option like Vergil will 100% still get wrecked by a cross under because he is still going to fall without doing much (he can try for a Helm Breaker though lol).

Corner mix ups put everyone on a near even playing field when they came in... you had to guess no matter who you were unless you had an invincible air hyper (Sentinel only lol). Now since the option of getting out the corner would be available (and I guarantee you most of the time people will take their chances outside of the corner) AND the other guy has less time to set up a mix up... this creates further gaps in tiers especially those who have air options and those who don't. Not only that but characters with good incoming mix ups are now less valuable.

 

[Karsticles]

So it sounds like you have just enough time to meaty someone with a normal or a long ranged move on incoming but not enough to wait for them to come down and land into an ambiguous cross under mix up (provided they have an escape).

Basically this effectively buffs double jumpers/triple jumpers and air dashers a metric ton because if you don't meaty them they will have enough time to escape an attempted mix up especially mid screen. A character with no incoming option like Vergil will 100% still get wrecked by a cross under because he is still going to fall without doing much (he can try for a Helm Breaker though lol).

Corner mix ups put everyone on a near even playing field when they came in... you had to guess no matter who you were unless you had an invincible air hyper (Sentinel only lol). Now since the option of getting out the corner would be available (and I guarantee you most of the time people will take their chances outside of the corner) AND the other guy has less time to set up a mix up... this creates further gaps in tiers especially those who have air options and those who don't.

Vergil will be able to Helm Breaker the cross under before it becomes a problem.

Yes, the change would benefit air mobile characters more than non-air mobile characters. But I don't agree that corner mix-ups put everyone on a more even playing field. If someone is playing a two with two characters that don't have air mobility (say, Chris and Vergil) characters like C. Viper, Firebrand, and Taskmaster can unblockable them all day into snapbacks for more unblockables. I've gotten 6 perfects in a row against someone because he played a team entirely comprised of characters without air mobility, and that meant Firebrand could just snapsnapsnapsnapsnap all day long until everyone died.

So, I don't disagree that air dash characters are much better off with my suggested change, but I also think that it's not any different now. Basically, the side-switch is what gives the non-air dash characters some influence over their incoming situation. Right now they have none.

 

["God's Beard!"]

So at +0, a lot of characters can just run under him and s.L

With no lower-body hitbox? I'm not saying jump back S is safe, I'm just saying he's not condemned to death at +0.

 

[Professor Beef]

Joe/Sent/Nova sucks.

 

[Karsticles]

Joe/Sent/Nova sucks.

Gravimetric Pulse H no good?

 

[Professor Beef]

Gravimetric Pulse H no good?

I'd rather have Solar Flare instead of it.

 

[Karsticles]

I'd rather have Solar Flare instead of it.

So dramatic.

 

[Dahbomb]

Vergil will be able to Helm Breaker the cross under before it becomes a problem.

I very much doubt that, he would be able to do that now if he could because people tend to mistime their set ups a lot. Violent Axe owns Vergil.

Also I didn't want to bring unblockables into the discussion as they aren't even a real mix up and we are going to be nerfing those anyway. Even air dash characters struggle with those.

I am going to go to sleep and put a hold on this system mechanics discussion.

that shouldn't be the case for a character's optimal blockstring.

Oh man Captain America finally about to get a good block string!

 

[Frantic]

I just saw these in my subscriptions. Gene/Buckethead has got to be the most entertaining player that we never get to see play.

Knives vs Gene FT7
A runback

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Joe/Sent/Nova sucks.

I tried to run that team a couple weeks ago. It just wasn't very fun.

 

[Dahbomb]

I just saw these in my subscriptions. Gene/Buckethead has got to be the most entertaining player that we never get to see play.

Knives vs Gene FT7
A runback

Yea I have seen Buckethead play before. He makes 3 of the most hated characters (Zero/Morrigan/Doom) look interesting at times.

 

[Karsticles]

I very much doubt that, he would be able to do that now if he could because people tend to mistime their set ups a lot. Violent Axe owns Vergil.

Also I didn't want to bring unblockables into the discussion as they aren't even a real mix up and we are going to be nerfing those anyway. Even air dash characters struggle with those.

I am going to go to sleep and put a hold on this system mechanics discussion.

If you let people change sides, you wouldn't need to nerf unblockables.

Don't make me cry by nerfing Firebrand.

Spoiler

I'll just drop him if you do.

Oh man Captain America finally about to get a good block string!

I was thinking about making his c.L chain into itself. Captain America players always say he needs more ways to open people up, so this accomplishes that, too.

I just saw these in my subscriptions. Gene/Buckethead has got to be the most entertaining player that we never get to see play.

Knives vs Gene FT7
A runback

Spencer with those ambiguous crossunders...

If we could get rid of those in some other way besides side-switching, I'd be open to it. I feel this is very important to game balance, though.

 

["God's Beard!"]

How about making Nemesis' 2L chain into standing L? Nice little two hit confirm. And he's +0 at a farther distance.

Plus, he could get 2L xx L(whiff) xx command grab mixups.

Unlike the other two big bodies, Nemesis can't move backwards or fly, but this lets him choose to not move forward at least.

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72285056]How about making Nemesis' 2L chain into standing L? Nice little two hit confirm. And he's +0 at a farther distance.

Plus, he could get 2L xx L(whiff) xx command grab mixups.[/QUOTE]
I like this idea, but let me sleep on it. Too tired to reason now.

Edit: Dahbomb, what do you propose the frame data on qcb.S is? It would be interesting if we gave that move good pushback on block, and that became his standard blockstring at +0 or something. Then he gets that mid-range reset to the neutral GB wants.

 

[Professor Beef]

Well I just found out the hard way that Nemesis has a command grab infinite on Frank.

 

[Karsticles]

Well I just found out the hard way that Nemesis has a command grab infinite on Frank.

Neutral air tech the reset.

 

[Professor Beef]

Neutral air tech the reset.

Didn't work.

 

["God's Beard!"]

standing rocket is like -19 and zero would body people at midrange

 

[Karsticles]

Didn't work.

Neutral air tech into j.L or something. I'm pretty sure that works.

 

[Professor Beef]

Neutral air tech into j.L or something. I'm pretty sure that works.

You'll have to forgive me if I'm extremely wary of your advice, since the last time you were "pretty sure" about something regarding one of my characters against another, it ended up losing me a game.

EDIT: Whoa, I just played against this really cool Joe team, and I really like it. Joe/Hawkeye with his vertical assist/Spider-Man. I don't like Spidey so I'll swap him with someone else with an OTG assist or something, but the keepaway is so fucking good I just made someone ragequit.

 

[onionfrog]

The Jill changes seem good to me. I like the air ok arrow kick especially.

 

[GuardianE]

Oh man Captain America finally about to get a good block string!

Who needs block strings with a c.L that good? Doesn't it frametrap?

Sorry, don't mean to derail if he's not on the list for today.

 

[Mœbius]

Viscant's article on his suggested changes for the Marvel patch... if it happens:

http://blog.brokentier.com/402/proposed-umvc3-changes/

 

[Dahbomb]

I like this idea, but let me sleep on it. Too tired to reason now.

Edit: Dahbomb, what do you propose the frame data on qcb.S is? It would be interesting if we gave that move good pushback on block, and that became his standard blockstring at +0 or something. Then he gets that mid-range reset to the neutral GB wants.

The QCB + S is just an angled down version of the regular launcher. Its supposed to be used for mid screen zoning. No way should that be his regular string, its going to be negative on block and most likely at very close range it's going to whiff because of his height. It's a zoning tool not a block string move. One of his Clothesline has to be safe to be usable as a string.

Who needs block strings with a c.L that good? Doesn't it frametrap?

Sorry, don't mean to derail if he's not on the list for today.

Cr.L is -5 on block. Cap's "frame traps" are special cancels where you try to punish his normals but he cancels then into Charging Star... it's like how the big bodies play. I don't like calling those frame traps, more like baits. Cap's block strings are garbage generally speaking.

 

[Horseress]

Viscant's article on his suggested changes for the Marvel patch... if it happens:

http://blog.brokentier.com/402/proposed-umvc3-changes/

nothingcanstopthistrain.gif

 

[Dahbomb]

IT'S NOT LOADING FOR ME!!!!!!!!

 

[Horseress]

Yeah it's not opening for some reason ¬¬

 

[Mœbius]

Strange, I've got it open in my tab now from when I first saw it, but if I try to open it in a new tab it's not loading either.

 

[Dahbomb]

Probably all the minions trying to spam refresh on it.

Spoiler

Spams F5.

 

[SolarPowered]

I'm not a fan of being heavy handed on install supers whether they are swords, astral vision or sougenmu. Just my two cents from dealing with some stupid install supers like Cat heads in SG.

I'd cut Morrigan's meter gain in Astral vision by half instead. Missiles and TACs being tweaked already changes things up significantly.

 

[Horseress]

Strange, I've got it open in my tab now from when I first saw it, but if I try to open it in a new tab it's not loading either.

Capcom took it down because those changes will be the official ones confirmed

I'm not a fan of being heavy handed on install supers whether they are swords, astral vision or sougenmu. Just my two cents from dealing with some stupid install supers like Cat heads in SG.

I'd cut Morrigan's meter gain in Astral vision by half instead. Missiles and TACs being tweaked already changes things up significantly.

She shouldn't gain meter in Astral Vision at all! I don't think any install super should build meter imo

 

[Mœbius]

Well, I could post / quote tidbits in the meantime if you're desperate, hehe.

 

[Dahbomb]

I'm not a fan of being heavy handed on install supers whether they are swords, astral vision or sougenmu. Just my two cents from dealing with some stupid install supers like Cat heads in SG.

I'd cut Morrigan's meter gain in Astral vision by half instead. Missiles and TACs being tweaked already changes things up significantly.

We actually didn't make any changes to Sogenmu (in the neutral game it should be just as powerful just slightly mitigated due to fewer Busters that can be used to pressure. I think in terms of install hypers... we actually super buffed Jill's hyper and nerf the invincibility on Dante's DT (because it makes no sense for it to have it). Berserker Charge was buffed too, it gives red health like the DTs.

SS will definitely get a substantial nerf and will be 2 meters instead of 1. AV will probably get something, most likely a + and - type thing (no meter gain but improved recovery, that sort of thing).

 

[LakeEarth]

She shouldn't gain meter in Astral Vision at all! I don't think any install super should build meter imo

The fact that it builds meter is the #1 sign that Capcom completely underestimated the power of Astral Vision.

 

[GuardianE]

She shouldn't gain meter in Astral Vision at all! I don't think any install super should build meter imo

If you're going to remove her ability to gain meter while in Astral, then you'll need to make her Astral persistent on tagout. Are you okay with that?

Cr.L is -5 on block. Cap's "frame traps" are special cancels where you try to punish his normals but he cancels then into Charging Star... it's like how the big bodies play. I don't like calling those frame traps, more like baits. Cap's block strings are garbage generally speaking.

I didn't know it was -5 on block. It's a 4-frame low that has a deceptively long hitbox. I'm not sure if it's punishable if you space it correctly.

 

[Zissou]

Overnerfing TAC is better than undernerfing TAC given that TAC revolves around pure randomness to be effective. Outside of Phoenix and characters that can only reliably infinite off a down TAC, there is no real mindgame involved in TAC. It’s only a “mindgame” in the same way that Twilight is literature. It’s a bad mechanic in general and having so much of the UMvC3 metagame revolve around TAC is the single biggest problem in the game.

So good!

 

[Horseress]

If you're going to remove her ability to gain meter while in Astral, then you'll need to make her Astral persistent on tagout. Are you okay with that?

You mean she keeps her Astral when she tags in again? If so, I'm ok with that, Zero's Sogenmu does the same

 

[GuardianE]

You mean she keeps her Astral when she tags in again? If so, I'm ok with that, Zero's Sogenmu does the same

That means her assist also gets Astral buffs.

 

[Horseress]

That means her assist also gets Astral buffs.

Hmm...maybe her meter assist builds more meter with Astral? That could work

EDIT: I can't remember now, but, on the Cap's cr.L being -5 on block matter, can he cancel it (on block) on his roll? If not, or we make his cr.L more safe or make it cancelable into his roll

 

[biosnake20]

Finally got the blog to load.

 

[Dahbomb]

God damn minions pressing F5 on it. Still haven't loaded for me.

*Reads Viscant opinion on TACs*

 

[Ghazi]

#pleasebuffJill

 

[Horseress]

Finally got the blog to load.

I STILL CAN'T! Fuck life

 

[kirblar]

Koogy pls