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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!

I thought you were talking about teams optimized for Strider on point with TAC infinite characters backing him up.

X-23 team will always have Dante on it plus a secondary character with a practical TAC infinite.
Exactly, I was. But my TAC teams will always have X-23 on them.

You don't need Dante on an X-23 team to do the unblockable, and if he is on the team, he has to be the secondary TAC infinite character because his tag attacks are so slow.
 
If Iron Man was half as good as his trailer he would be Zero.

Well actually probably top 15. Was good enough. Not Skyfall level though.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Trailer was kinda poorly edited and the voice overs failed to set the intended tone. The money shots sold the trailer... That airplane sequence looks insane.

Tony Swag still in full effect.
 
I thought all about Ghost Rider today. I might take a break from Dormammu and master this guy, he's a lot of fun. Thinking about swapping Hawkeye out for Arthur, also considering replacing She-Hulk with Dante. I need more experience against zoning teams to see what's feasible.

All of Karst's talk of Ghost Rider made me put together a makeshift team of GR/Deadpool/Sentinel. It's been doing ok, but I think I might be too worried to try Deadpool's slide assist for unblockables.
Quick Work is much harder to land unblockables with for Ghost Rider.

I'll have to save replying to Karst for another day.

Iron Man 3 Trailer

YES
YES
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES
I love this trailer because it shows that literally anyone could be Iron Man. It's all about the suit, not the man.

I wonder if Modok's barrier is worth running as an assist vs. Morridoom. Not sure if its better than Beam or Jamming Bomb, but I haven't played with it yet. Still fiddling with modok/dante/sentinel (which is a ton of fun btw).
Nah. He'll get hit as he tries to get hit fat butt on the screen.

i don't know what the fuck i'm thinking trying out spencer/vergil/frank. they're all free to incoming mixups, they're free to incoming mixups and if frank is point or dies, the team goes to shit.

just for shits i'm gonna try out Firebrand/Doom Missiles/Hulk b/c all of their ults have armor and I want to spam Hulks AA assist like its some invincible shit from MVC2
Hulk anchor? The AA assist is borderline invincible. I've never out-prioritized it.

Wesker team - I remember lots of pew pew pew combined with assist combos and many Dark Harmonizers. Can't say much except it was really effective. That team is a real noob killer team and it doesn't even take much work to get it going.
I'm all about the pewpewpew! I think a lot of Wesker players think he's not top tier because they spend too much time trying to rush with him.

Skrull - So many random fishes for Infeeeeeeeeeeernooooo. It was driving me nuts. I liked all those lockdowns into his elastic grabs. I was mad that I couldn't do anything against him with Shulkie. I was happy when I user her AA super to knock his annoying green ass to the corner though.
Skrull is probably my #1 choice for "this character is so good, why isn't anyone using him?"

Vergil - So many happy birthdays. I think I went to the bathroom at one point and came back to see you on a 100 hit combo. You've clearly put some work into learning him even if you don't think so. Makes me laugh that you can do his stuff so well, but can't get even a basic soul fist loop combo down. Not laughing at you though. Just laughing at the absurdity of it all.
Sword loops are far, far easier than people make them out to be. The only reason I drop them is latency differences between opponents. It's just sad when Vergil mains still drop that stuff these days. I've definitely put some work into him, I just can't use him at full capacity because charging L while playing footsies is beyond my current capacity. I say current because fly-cancels were once beyond me, too.

The Morrigan Soul Fist combos...I will get those down! :p

Deadpool team - I think I saw him like two times. I can't recall a single thing about him during our fights.
Pewpewpew!

Firebrand - "Kya kya kya lemme swoop down on you for a minute" is all I could imagine him saying during our fight. He spent so much time in the air that I kinda resorted to more horizontal air soul fists to keep him out of the sky a bit. You knew his combos. There isn't much else to say.
Indeed.

Strider team - Really oppressive because of that assist. I can't recall you going for any crazy XF3 ouroboros shenanigans. I think fought him a couple of times on point, but I can't remember much. Probably one of your less effective teams. His assist is totally more useful than the character on point imo(unless he blows XF2 or above).
The team tends to do better against other opponents, but Hidden Missiles counters Vajra pretty hard, so I wasn't able to call it often. I'm not comprehending your last sentence, though.

If I had to rank your teams they would go something like this:

Vergil team>Wesker team>FireBrand team>Skrull team>Strider team>Deadpool team
That's roughly how I feel about them right now, too.
 

Zissou

Member
I think he just means strider's value as an assist is greater than his contribution to the team as a point character outside of x-factor.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
I love this trailer because it shows that literally anyone could be Iron Man. It's all about the suit, not the man.
Just need your intelligence to be on the level of a handful of others in the entire universe and your good to go! Simple as that! :p
 

Dahbomb

Member
I love this trailer because it shows that literally anyone could be Iron Man. It's all about the suit, not the man.
I don't know where you got that from the trailer. Just because a bunch of knock offs are going around in Tony's suit doesn't make them the Iron Man. That happened in IM1 and IM2 as well... other characters in suits (or even robotic suits) tried to go after Tony but ultimately failed. Superior tech and intelligence always prevails.

It's like the guys in TDK running around in hockey pads. You can wear the suit, you can have the utility belt, you can even have years of ninjutsu training or be a billionaire playboy... but you can't be Batman. It's the rare mixture of all those ingredients, plus the inner character turmoil, the will, the intelligence and a sense of the greater good that makes Batman who he is.

It's just like Cap asked Tony in Avengers :

Cap: Big man in a suit of armour. Take that off, what are you?
Tony Stark: Genius, billionaire, playboy, philanthropist....

Tony is like top 5 most intelligent characters in the Marvel universe (rivaling that of Dr Doom and Richard Reeds). The Arc reactor essentially boosts his intelligence past normal human capacity. He is constantly pushing science and getting stronger. That's basically his super power just like "prep time" is Batman's. Even without the arc reactor he was a genius prior to becoming IM.

People give Tony shit for drinking, having sex with all the Marvel babes (haters gonna hate, if you have a favorite Marvel female chances are Tony already tapped dat) and just being too egocentric at times but he also saves the world and makes it a better place for all. After all he was the one that risked his life piloting that nuke in the Avengers into space almost killing himself in the process.
 
I don't know where you got that from the trailer. Just because a bunch of knock offs are going around in Tony's suit doesn't make them the Iron Man. That happened in IM1 and IM2 as well... other characters in suits (or even robotic suits) tried to go after Tony but ultimately failed. Superior tech and intelligence always prevails.
The fact that it's all about the tech is exactly why it's about the suit. The intelligence isn't what lets him play her.

It's like the guys in TDK running around in hockey pads. You can wear the suit, you can have the utility belt, you can even have years of ninjutsu training or be a billionaire playboy... but you can't be Batman. It's the rare mixture of all those ingredients, plus the inner character turmoil, the will, the intelligence and a sense of the greater good that makes Batman who he is.
You compared Batman to guys in hockey pads.

It's just like Cap asked Tony in Avengers :

Cap: Big man in a suit of armour. Take that off, what are you?
Tony Stark: Genius, billionaire, playboy, philanthropist....
3/4 of those are just facets of being rich. -_-

Tony is like top 5 most intelligent characters in the Marvel universe (rivaling that of Dr Doom and Richard Reeds). The Arc reactor essentially boosts his intelligence past normal human capacity. He is constantly pushing science and getting stronger. That's basically his super power just like "prep time" is Batman's. Even without the arc reactor he was a genius prior to becoming IM.
Many people are smart. They aren't heroes, though. Tony could be the guy designing suits for someone else, and he'd be the same character to me.

People give Tony shit for drinking, having sex with all the Marvel babes (haters gonna hate, if you have a favorite Marvel female chances are Tony already tapped dat) and just being too egocentric at times but he also saves the world and makes it a better place for all. After all he was the one that risked his life piloting that nuke in the Avengers into space almost killing himself in the process.
He was for mutant registration. If someone is willing to suspend civil liberties like that, I couldn't ever respect that character's intelligence.

Would anyone mind playing with me within the next hour or so?
Tonight is unlikely. Watching Netflix with my wife.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Many people are smart. They aren't heroes, though. Tony could be the guy designing suits for someone else, and he'd be the same character to me.
Really? I mean.. Tony is the reason the suit exists, the origin story is kind of focused around him building shit for others and then his entire character changing because he isn't anymore and is the Iron Man now with all that that entails. I don't see how you can detatch the two and it would be the same. Tony without his suit is.. well any other genius with none of the same problems, flaws or responsibilities.

Also, wasn't his support for mutant registration retconned? Anyways, Civil War Tony was a pretty much a different character than Tony is otherwise.
 

Dahbomb

Member
The fact that it's all about the tech is exactly why it's about the suit. The intelligence isn't what lets him play her.
Her? The intelligence is what brings about the superior tech. The villains just copy Tony's stuff but he always has something better in store. He is always ahead of the curve.

You compared Batman to guys in hockey pads.
And you compared henchmen and machines to Iron Man.

Many people are smart. They aren't heroes, though. Tony could be the guy designing suits for someone else, and he'd be the same character to me.
Wearing the suit and using it in combat is still a risky venture. Also just because he can make suits doesn't mean that he is also going to place arc reactors on everyone just so they could be like him. Plus what if something goes wrong with the suit? Tony has the smarts to fix it on the spot or adapt to the situation... most other characters would just fold. That's pretty much the entire point of IM1... he used to build stuff for others and then stuff happened so he decided to take a different route with his life.


He was for mutant registration. If someone is willing to suspend civil liberties like that, I couldn't ever respect that character's intelligence.
There was a thread on GAF about this whole thing. It was generally split and arguments were presented both ways. Countries get up in arms over each other having nukes we are talking about mutants who can destroy planets in the blink of an eye. Practically speaking something like that would have to be done to keep some checks in place or it would be utter chaos and the end of the world. I am pretty sure that the government has labelled Iron Man as a weapon too so it's not like he is exempted from anything. Suspending civil liberties for the greater good would be a no brainer. Even for smaller things like let's say athletics... would you allow mutants to participate in sports? If yes then would you have them declare their powers or not? If they are allowed to use their powers then wouldn't it defeat the purpose of sports (like someone with telekinesis would be able to shoot 3 pointers from across the court)?

This warrants it's own discussion though. I am not really for or against mutant registration but I see both sides of the argument. I think someone equated it to citizens having to register their weapons and that's not that bad. Mutants powers can be used as weapons so I am assuming that's where that logic comes from.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Captain America is just some guy juiced up on super serum. I could be Captain America if someone juiced me up.

Basically the argument about "guy in suit = Iron Man"
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Conclusion: Karst needs to rewatch IM1 at the least.

Not memorable and being probably the best self-contained MCU movie is mindboggling. Every time I rewatch the movie I see more stuff they got right in terms of pacing and delivery of the origin story through various means. The balance of humor/action/story in the movie is impeccable. And as far as an origin story goes, it's as good as Spiderman.

Tied with Pulp Fiction (and probably F&F, though I rewatch that less often) as my favourite movies.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Oh come on now it's not THAT good (on the rank of Pulp Fiction that is).

Plus the main villain was ass and the final action sequence was a let down. The Marvel series needs better villains overall. Hopefully Ben kills it as Mandarin.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Oh come on now it's not THAT good (on the rank of Pulp Fiction that is).

Plus the main villain was ass and the final action sequence was a let down. The Marvel series needs better villains overall. Hopefully Ben kills it as Mandarin.
I think the villain was really good, but indeed the final action sequence was a bit of a letdown. Same goes for Iron Man 2, which has a pretty goddamn cheesy ending.

It doesn't help when Spiderman has all the best villains. I'm not worried though, Thanos and likely Ultron are on the docket, and I couldn't ask for much more really.

Iron Man kind of has shitty villains in general. I liked the Extremis arc a lot and that's the main reason why I'm excited for IM3.. never was a huge fan of Mandarin because he's always been kind of lame when it comes to how Tony beats him.

If Iron Man 3 ties back into IM1 and IM2 the way people are speculating in the trailer thread, I'm gonna have an orgasm.
 
Oh I see how it is.

Your on that boy scout Cap's side.
You're*

And yeah, I happen to value this thing called "liberty". Crazy me.

Really? I mean.. Tony is the reason the suit exists, the origin story is kind of focused around him building shit for others and then his entire character changing because he isn't anymore and is the Iron Man now with all that that entails. I don't see how you can detatch the two and it would be the same. Tony without his suit is.. well any other genius with none of the same problems, flaws or responsibilities.

Also, wasn't his support for mutant registration retconned? Anyways, Civil War Tony was a pretty much a different character than Tony is otherwise.
How do you retcon an entire story arc? -__

The suit is just an invention. Oppenheimer isn't impressive for inventing the nuclear bomb, either.

Her? The intelligence is what brings about the superior tech. The villains just copy Tony's stuff but he always has something better in store. He is always ahead of the curve.
Hero*

And you compared henchmen and machines to Iron Man.
Right, but of equal technical level.

Wearing the suit and using it in combat is still a risky venture. Also just because he can make suits doesn't mean that he is also going to place arc reactors on everyone just so they could be like him. Plus what if something goes wrong with the suit? Tony has the smarts to fix it on the spot or adapt to the situation... most other characters would just fold. That's pretty much the entire point of IM1... he used to build stuff for others and then stuff happened so he decided to take a different route with his life.
So he's like a hotshot pilot who is also a mechanic. Soooo impressive.

There was a thread on GAF about this whole thing. It was generally split and arguments were presented both ways. Countries get up in arms over each other having nukes we are talking about mutants who can destroy planets in the blink of an eye. Practically speaking something like that would have to be done to keep some checks in place or it would be utter chaos and the end of the world. I am pretty sure that the government has labelled Iron Man as a weapon too so it's not like he is exempted from anything. Suspending civil liberties for the greater good would be a no brainer. Even for smaller things like let's say athletics... would you allow mutants to participate in sports? If yes then would you have them declare their powers or not? If they are allowed to use their powers then wouldn't it defeat the purpose of sports (like someone with telekinesis would be able to shoot 3 pointers from across the court)?
I'm on Magneto's side of the war, remember?

This warrants it's own discussion though. I am not really for or against mutant registration but I see both sides of the argument. I think someone equated it to citizens having to register their weapons and that's not that bad. Mutants powers can be used as weapons so I am assuming that's where that logic comes from.
Registration is just the first step before rights are stripped away.

Conclusion: Karst needs to rewatch IM1 at the least.

Not memorable and being probably the best self-contained MCU movie is mindboggling. Every time I rewatch the movie I see more stuff they got right in terms of pacing and delivery of the origin story through various means. The balance of humor/action/story in the movie is impeccable. And as far as an origin story goes, it's as good as Spiderman.

Tied with Pulp Fiction (and probably F&F, though I rewatch that less often) as my favourite movies.
Never seen Pulp Fiction. On my to-watch list.

Captain America is just some guy juiced up on super serum. I could be Captain America if someone juiced me up.

Basically the argument about "guy in suit = Iron Man"
I'm not a Captain America fan, so I'm not sure who you're arguing against with that. I'm glad you see it my way, though, and know that Iron Man isn't anything special.

I see MarvelGAF is having its own Civil War / AvX arc.
:-D

I think the villain was really good, but indeed the final action sequence was a bit of a letdown. Same goes for Iron Man 2, which has a pretty goddamn cheesy ending.

It doesn't help when Spiderman has all the best villains. I'm not worried though, Thanos and likely Ultron are on the docket, and I couldn't ask for much more really.

Iron Man kind of has shitty villains in general. I liked the Extremis arc a lot and that's the main reason why I'm excited for IM3.. never was a huge fan of Mandarin because he's always been kind of lame when it comes to how Tony beats him.

If Iron Man 3 ties back into IM1 and IM2 the way people are speculating in the trailer thread, I'm gonna have an orgasm.
The villain was "oh this guy again? I guess no one else could play the role" to me.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Never seen Pulp Fiction. On my to-watch list.
ikLrX5wQBk39y.gif
 

Dahbomb

Member
I'm not a Captain America fan, so I'm not sure who you're arguing against with that. I'm glad you see it my way, though, and know that Iron Man isn't anything special.
It was sarcastic. I was saying that you could say that for just about any hero but that doesn't make them any less special. Both Cap and IM ARE special. Just because Cap is juiced up on super serum doesn't mean anyone can be Cap by juicing up on super serum. His impeccable morality, leadership, strategic mindset and character qualities are what make Cap.... not his shield or serum. I don't like Cap because he's too much of a boy scout (I say the same for Cyclops), almost to a fault but I respect what he brings to the Avengers team.

Never seen Pulp Fiction. On my to-watch list.
And we are done here.

Pack it up folks.
 

shaowebb

Member
I just hate how he sucks in the game

Give him Chin's drinking move from KoF XIII so he can self buff from full screen between repulsors and you have an accurate Iron Man who no longer sucks. When he's sober he's a genius, but when he's drunk he's...um...a scary drunk man in a full body tank with no fucks to give?
He was for mutant registration. If someone is willing to suspend civil liberties like that, I couldn't ever respect that character's intelligence.

How many counts of assault and medical bills should Spiderman be liable for in a court of law? Hero is subjective.

If someone is born with a disorder fine, but being born with powers is different. If someone buys a gun they have to register that they own a weapon that can kill with minimal effort. If a human was born with that same ability I think its something that would absolutely have to be registered otherwise you have the equivalent of people walking around with weapons and no way to hold them liable for their actions.


"Excuse me can you blow up cars with your mind?"
"Why yes I can! I run around and do it all the time to stop purse snatchers and general thieves."
"We want you to register your identity with the government so we can hold you liable for any property damage, personal injuries, or other actions you may take with this ability."
"...what?"
"Well if I had a gun and carried it on me in public wouldn't you want me registered as a gun owner so I could be traced should I shoot someone?"
"Yes."
"Then you can see where we are coming from. We'd just like to regis..."
"YOU ARE INFRINGING ON MY CIVIL RIGHTS!!!!!"


Yeah...doesn't exactly work. My vote goes to the drunken business tycoon who gives you his name and address everytime he suits up in his full body gun as a licensed SHIELD director. Heroes aren't even deputized...they're just dudes who commit assault in tights based on split second judgments.
 
It was sarcastic. I was saying that you could say that for just about any hero. Both Cap and IM ARE special. Just because Cap is juiced up on super serum doesn't mean anyone can be Cap by juicing up on super serum. His impeccable morality, leadership, strategic mindset and character qualities are what make Cap.... not his shield or serum.
Last time I checked, Captain America wasn't special. He's manufactured, a creation, like the suit. Wasn't he a dweeby kid before he drank the serum?

SteveRogers.jpg

Could you use a worse example for your argument?

Mutants are born the way they are. Their powers are who they are. Iron Man and Captain America are products of technological advancement. They don't represent any kind of progression of the species. They're not noteworthy.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Tony should have a drink move with properties just like Frank West's, except it gives him a proper magic series. What do you say, Niitsuma? I don't mind waiting 10 years.

Last time I checked, Captain America wasn't special. He's manufactured, a creation, like the suit. Wasn't he a dweeby kid before he drank the serum?

SteveRogers.jpg

Could you use a worse example for your argument?

Mutants are born the way they are. Their powers are who they are. Iron Man and Captain America are products of technological advancement. They don't represent any kind of progression of the species. They're not noteworthy.
I kinda feel like with both Cap and Iron Man your missing entirely the reason why those technological enhancements or whatever are there in the first place and just judging them on the surface. I mean, Iron Man and Cap aren't cool just because of what they are, but why they are what they are. Cap is a symbol of extracting strength from weakness, his mental resilience is what leads humanity against adversity over and over, and why he was chosen over so many other physically fit candidates. Iron Man represents a growing conscience and responsibility in the world that started with him and reaches out as far as he can go. He just gave the world free renewable energy (in the comics), that doesn't advance society any or is your only criteria for greatness things of predisposed genetic basis?
 

Dahbomb

Member
Last time I checked, Captain America wasn't special. He's manufactured, a creation, like the suit. Wasn't he a dweeby kid before he drank the serum?

SteveRogers.jpg

Could you use a worse example for your argument?
Yes he was a dweeby skinny kid before.

Have you wondered WHY they chose him to be Captain America and take the serum over numerous other physically fit candidates? When you figure out the answer then you will know.

I shit on the Captain America movie a lot but at least they did that part of his character justice.

To me most mutants aren't special either but some are and those are the ones with character (like Magneto). Spider Man is not a mutant and is a by product of technological advancement.. but his character is what makes SM who he is. Same for Hulk and to some extent Wolverine (born a mutant and then advanced with technology). To me Wolverine's powers aren't special... it's his character that is. I mean really in a universe where characters can manipulate dimensions and reality... some Canadian regaining health and popping claws out of his hand is nothing in comparison. His life journey and the character he has become is what makes Wolverine who he is.

Being born with something doesn't make you special... it's what you do with it that defines you. Batman/IM were born billionaires but they did something noteworthy with their wealth and talents... aspired to be something greater. To me Batman is the best hero in existence... he hangs with characters far above his power level yet makes his presence worthwhile.
 
Understood.
Maybe later this week?

Tony should have a drink move with properties just like Frank West's, except it gives him a proper magic series. What do you say, Niitsuma? I don't mind waiting 10 years.
You know, the one thing that this game doesn't have in fighting game styles is a drunken master...I can see Iron Man wobble-walking around the screen. It would make for the most advanced footsies ever.

I kinda feel like with both Cap and Iron Man your missing entirely the reason why those technological enhancements or whatever are there in the first place and just judging them on the surface. I mean, Iron Man and Cap aren't cool just because of what they are, but why they are what they are. Cap is a symbol of extracting strength from weakness, his mental resilience is what leads humanity against adversity over and over, and why he was chosen over so many other physically fit candidates. Iron Man represents a growing conscience and responsibility in the world that started with him and reaches out as far as he can go. He just gave the world free renewable energy (in the comics), that doesn't advance society any or is your only criteria for greatness things of predisposed genetic basis?
you're*!

Giving the world free renewable energy is on par with some cheap idealistic sci-fi novel. It's not interesting to me.

I primarily care about the will to dominate others. Hence why I embrace Magneto for understanding that humanity needs to be put down, but I could give a crap about Cyclops. Magneto isn't just a genetic advancement, he's a psychological advancement. I can't respect Iron Man because he's generally detestable as a human being.

Yes he was a dweeby skinny kid before.

Have you wondered WHY they chose him to be Captain America and take the serum over numerous other physically fit candidates? When you figure out the answer then you will know.
Yeah, they chose him because it's a comic written for skinny nerds that want super strength. If they chose a top high school football player who became a Marine as the candidate, nerds would wonder why he isn't a villain.

To me most mutants aren't special either but some are and those are the ones with character (like Magneto). Spider Man is not a mutant and is a by product of technological advancement.. but his character is what makes SM who he is. Same for Hulk and to some extent Wolverine (born a mutant and then advanced with technology). To me Wolverine's powers aren't special... it's his character that is. I mean really in a universe where characters can manipulate dimensions and reality... some Canadian regaining health and popping claws out of his hand is nothing in comparison. His life journey and the character he has become is what makes Wolverine who he is.
You want to play the "character depth" angle while defending a character with as much depth as a sheet of paper? Iron Man is closer to a caricature than a character.

Being born with something doesn't make you special... it's what you do with it that defines you. Batman/IM were born billionaires but they did something noteworthy with their wealth and talents... aspired to be something greater. To me Batman is the best hero in existence... he hangs with characters far above his power level yet makes his presence worthwhile.
I was coming at this from a shallow angle: who is cool. To me, super powers are what make comic book characters interesting. A suit of armor isn't. Then you and enzo want to change the argument to be about depth of character for some reason. We can go at it from that angle: the fact is that both Batman and Iron Man are simpletons with an overdeveloped sense of justice. They are characters that only make sense in a Judeo-Christian fantasy where people pretend that concepts like selflessness aren't purely imaginary.
 
Again, I should reiterate. This isn't a hypothetical question, I'm actually trying to find out how much the metagame could potentially change due to TAC infinites. Damage and meter build are more or less irrelevant.

It wouldn't change at all

- TAC infinites are a lot harder to do and easier to drop than it looks
- TACs itself is a risk
- Unnecessary risk if you can TOD without them
- Builds meter for your opponent. A lot of meter.
- Characters like Storm and Trish have a long list of reasons for why they suck. Ultimately giving them the ability to TOD wouldn't change the fact that there are characters which offer much more than they do. Trish had the DHC glitch in vanilla and yet everyone ditched her.

TAC infinities will never be a major part of the metagame for these reasons.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
I was coming at this from a shallow angle: who is cool. To me, super powers are what make comic book characters interesting. A suit of armor isn't. Then you and enzo want to change the argument to be about depth of character for some reason. We can go at it from that angle: the fact is that both Batman and Iron Man are simpletons with an overdeveloped sense of justice. They are characters that only make sense in a Judeo-Christian fantasy where people pretend that concepts like selflessness aren't purely imaginary.

Batman and Iron Man aren't simpletons with a sense of justice. They're neurotic genuises, and in the case of Batman, borderline insane. That's why they're interesting. Not because they have a suit of armor, tech, or gadgets (okay the gadgets help). They do what they do because of their flaws, not in spite of them. They let their deficiencies run their lives and are often psychological messes because of it.
 
Batman and Iron Man aren't simpletons with a sense of justice. They're neurotic genuises, and in the case of Batman, borderline insane. That's why they're interesting. Not because they have a suit of armor, tech, or gadgets (okay the gadgets help). They do what they do because of their flaws, not in spite of them. They let their deficiencies run their lives and are often psychological messes because of it.
"My parents were killed so I have to catch the bad guys, which symbolically makes me feel like I am saving them during that horrible night."

What's the short version of Iron Man's neurosis?

I've read enough psychoanalytic case studies that the comic book version isn't all that interesting to me.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
"My parents were killed so I have to catch the bad guys, which symbolically makes me feel like I am saving them during that horrible night."

What's the short version of Iron Man's neurosis?

I've read enough psychoanalytic case studies that the comic book version isn't all that interesting to me.

I mean, that's all well and fine. They're not interesting to you. But you said they were simpletons with an overdeveloped sense of justice. That statement is simply not true.

Tony Stark is a drunk because of the validation he's seeking from his late father. That's the jist of it. There's also elements of guilt due to the weapons manufacturing and his father's reputation.

Batman's issues are more than that. He has all the resources in the world... yet he fights criminals in the shadows? Alone? As a crusader? He could literally change Gotham with his money alone, but he instead chooses to pump millions of dollars into being a vigilante simply because he's allowed one tragedy to run his life.

And, once again, if we want to go at this from the deep angle... what's so appealing about the innumerable villains in the Marvel universe? Their superpowers don't make them deep. The majority have the motivations of cardboard.
 

Dahbomb

Member
You might have read psychoanalytic cases but I have experienced them in clinical practice. The cases of Batman and IM are still very interesting to me, especially Batman. Batman is over avenging his parents, he had his chance but didn't follow through (if you want to follow Nolan Batman). If this was just vengeance he would be done a long time ago. He wanted to strive for something greater, for what he believed true justice was. The stuff that he has to deal with on a daily basis (psychotic killers) it's a miracle that he hasn't started killing them off one by one. It is certainly within his capacity but he is well beyond that.

Boiling down Batmans character to just one event in his life is under selling him. It's like saying the only reason why Magneto fights for mutant rights is because he went through the holocaust. These are catalyst events but they are not enough fuel to keep them going for as long as they have.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
One of my best friends is a clinical psychologist and his favorite superhero is undoubtedly Batman. Followed by a combination of Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America.
 
I mean, that's all well and fine. They're not interesting to you. But you said they were simpletons with an overdeveloped sense of justice. That statement is simply not true.
I think "my parents died and I want to avenge them" is about as simple as a character motive can get. Can you think of a simpler one?

Tony Stark is a drunk because of the validation he's seeking from his late father.
Aaaaaand?

Batman's issues are more than that. He has all the resources in the world... yet he fights criminals in the shadows? Alone? As a crusader? He could literally change Gotham with his money alone, but he instead chooses to pump millions of dollars into being a vigilante simply because he's allowed one tragedy to run his life.
More likely, he's a comic book character that fights crime, and no one would buy the comics if he actually cleaned up Gotham city. Comics are long, long past the point where they can be respected for character development. Their authors don't even take them seriously. Though I am admittedly speaking more about Marvel than DC here, since that's what I'm more familiar with.

And, once again, if we want to go at this from the deep angle... what's so appealing about the innumerable villains in the Marvel universe? Their superpowers don't make them deep. The majority have the motivations of cardboard.
I'm not attracted to the innumerable villains of the Marvel universe, so there's no need to argue that point. Even moreso because like I said, I was judging the characters based on how cool they are initially. Enzo and Dahbomb wanted to approach things from the character depth angle, not me. I don't expect character depth in mass media, it's just not fair to modern sensibilities.

I don't have a hard-on for villains, contrary to what people here might think. I like characters who pursue their goals honestly, by which I mean they say "I want that", and then they take it. Straight forward. There are rarely heroes who go about doing these things, because they are mucked up by concepts like justice and morality. Characters like Firebrand and Morrigan are appealing to me because they are honest about their drives: they're instinctual. What heroes are so honest as to say why they really do what they do?

To make heroes even less appealing, they can't even justify their own existence. They need villains to be heroes. No one gives a fuck about an Iron Man or Captain America in a world filled with peace. Iron Man would be a noteworthy inventor on par with Albert Einstein, but he wouldn't be what he is now. Captain America would probably be a construction worker or something (who knows). Heroes define themselves through their opposition to villains. The villains drive the story through the expression of their desires.

A character like Chris is maybe the best (worst?) example. What is Chris without a Wesker to catch? That's all he can yam about. All of his lines are even him complaining about Wesker or taunting him. He doesn't even exist without his end goal, to kill Wesker. He's pathetic. Wesker would be Wesker without Chris. He would still be a madman bent on creating a new world. Even when heroes have backstories to make them feel more real, their entire existence is still noteworthy only because they have an obsession with eliminating the "bad guys".

One of my best friends is a clinical psychologist and his favorite superhero is undoubtedly Batman. Followed by a combination of Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America.
Bad taste exists within all professions, as does intellectual uncleanliness.

You might have read psychoanalytic cases but I have experienced them in clinical practice. The cases of Batman and IM are still very interesting to me, especially Batman. Batman is over avenging his parents, he had his chance but didn't follow through (if you want to follow Nolan Batman). If this was just vengeance he would be done a long time ago. He wanted to strive for something greater, for what he believed true justice was. The stuff that he has to deal with on a daily basis (psychotic killers) it's a miracle that he hasn't started killing them off one by one. It is certainly within his capacity but he is well beyond that.

Boiling down Batmans character to just one event in his life is under selling him. It's like saying the only reason why Magneto fights for mutant rights is because he went through the holocaust. These are catalyst events but they are not enough fuel to keep them going for as long as they have.
I was responding to the neurosis angle with regard to Batman's character development. Undoubtedly, other stuff has happened to him and influenced him.
 
Iron Man still has shitty music in Marvel 3. There's no defense force for that. I'm also siding with Karst on the Iron Man =/= special train. It's the suit (and the money), not the man.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
I think "my parents died and I want to avenge them" is about as simple as a character motive can get. Can you think of a simpler one?

Sure. "I want to rule the world because I can." Or how about "I want chaos."


To make heroes even less appealing, they can't even justify their own existence. They need villains to be heroes. No one gives a fuck about an Iron Man or Captain America in a world filled with peace. Iron Man would be a noteworthy inventor on par with Albert Einstein, but he wouldn't be what he is now. Captain America would probably be a construction worker or something (who knows). Heroes define themselves through their opposition to villains. The villains drive the story through the expression of their desires.

A character like Chris is maybe the best (worst?) example. What is Chris without a Wesker to catch? That's all he can yam about. All of his lines are even him complaining about Wesker or taunting him. He doesn't even exist without his end goal, to kill Wesker. He's pathetic. Wesker would be Wesker without Chris. He would still be a madman bent on creating a new world. Even when heroes have backstories to make them feel more real, their entire existence is still noteworthy only because they have an obsession with eliminating the "bad guys".

You bring up a valid point, but I've always found that aspect of heroes to be intriguing. The reason they exist is because of their counterparts.


Bad taste exists within all professions.

I wasn't validating his taste with his profession. I was giving an example of someone who deals with deep seeded psychological issues on a daily basis, but still doesn't tire of a more convenient storytelling version of them.
 
Iron Man still has shitty music in Marvel 3. There's no defense force for that. I'm also siding with Karst on the Iron Man =/= special train. It's the suit (and the money), not the man.
Most of Marvel 3's music is terrible. Too much techno crap.

Sure. "I want to rule the world because I can." Or how about "I want chaos."
"I want chaos" isn't a motive, it's an expression of a desire. A motive requires some kind of background. "I am an immortal being who longs to die, and can only accomplish that through destroying the world" is a motive. I don't think your first quote is a motive, either.

I wasn't validating his taste with his profession. I was giving an example of someone who deals with deep seeded psychological issues on a daily basis, but still doesn't tire of a more convenient storytelling version of them.
Why?

You bring up a valid point, but I've always found that aspect of heroes to be intriguing. The reason they exist is because of their counterparts.
What bothers me about it is that it's not how humans work. "I want to rid the world of evil" is a manifestation of a desire, it doesn't get at the actual desire that's being expressed, though. Rarely does fiction explore the real driving force behind the hero. I'm not anti-heroes, I just don't like the bullarky.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
"I want chaos" isn't a motive, it's an expression of a desire. A motive requires some kind of background. "I am an immortal being who longs to die, and can only accomplish that through destroying the world" is a motive. I don't think your first quote is a motive, either.

I don't see why not. Chaos can be an end goal, and therefore motivation for action. It's purportedly the Joker's primary motivation for a lot of writers... that or to simply "have fun."



Simply to indicate that oversaturating yourself with psychoanalytical case studies does not necessitate boredom with the character archetypes provided.


What bothers me about it is that it's not how humans work. "I want to rid the world of evil" is a manifestation of a desire, it doesn't get at the actual desire that's being expressed, though. Rarely does fiction explore the real driving force behind the hero. I'm not anti-heroes, I just don't like the bullarky.

I mean, it is bullarky. You have to suspend disbelief for certain characters. If you're unable or unwilling to do that, then that's that. Most super heroes are impossible beings when it comes to their character. Or are stereotypes. However, that's not unlike most characters in media today. However, it's the elements of human weakness and emotion that makes them appealing or endearing to read about. That's why I found it important to separate the motivations of Batman and Iron Man from being something of pure heroism.
 
I don't see why not. Chaos can be an end goal, and therefore motivation for action. It's purportedly the Joker's primary motivation for a lot of writers... that or to simply "have fun."
End goals are not motivations. Motivation is what leads one toward an end goal.

Personally, and I stress personally, I like to think of Nolan's Joker as not really being about fun or chaos. He would have done things differently then, don't you think? When I watch what he does in the movie, it seems to me rather that the Joker has something like a deep-seated desire to recognize ugliness in human beings. His overall goal isn't pure chaos, but to make people confront what's really driving their actions. He wants to show our true nature.

I've only seen the movie, though, so I might be way off. I would have considered TDK2 a great movie if both boats blew each other up.

Simply to indicate that your boredom with the character archetypes is not necessitated by you oversaturating yourself with psychoanalytical case studies.
That would be a valid point if your friend were interested in Batman because of his psychological background. Is that the case? Or does he just think he's a badass, which is more common?

I mean, it is bullarky. You have to suspend disbelief for certain characters. If you're unable or unwilling to do that, then that's that. Most super heroes are impossible beings when it comes to their character. Or are stereotypes. However, that's not unlike most characters in media today. However, it's the elements of human weakness and emotion that makes them appealing or endearing to read about.
If the comics focused on emotion and weakness, I think they would be respectable. The problem is that they instead focus on as much badassery as possible. And isn't Sentry the epitome of this kind of thinking? Marvel characters no longer have any kind of emotional consistency to them. They're just action figures that get posed however they need to be for the next big "epic" event, which usually means something happening that can potentially destroy everything and needs to be stopped. How epic!

That takes two things Marvel seems to lack, though:
1) A willingness to progress characters, possibly even losing some in the process.
2) Talent.

This is also why Square-Enix RPGs have started to blow, and why no one liked the Star Wars prequels. All flash, no substance.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
End goals are not motivations. Motivation is what leads one toward an end goal.

Personally, and I stress personally, I like to think of Nolan's Joker as not really being about fun or chaos. He would have done things differently then, don't you think? When I watch what he does in the movie, it seems to me rather that the Joker has something like a deep-seated desire to recognize ugliness in human beings. His overall goal isn't pure chaos, but to make people confront what's really driving their actions. He wants to show our true nature.

I've only seen the movie, though, so I might be way off. I would have considered TDK2 a great movie if both boats blew each other up.

I'll concede that chaos may not be a motivation. There are plenty of villains that simply have jealousy or hate as motivations with little backdrop.

Chaos is an end result of the exposure of human drive. It's bringing the notion of the Savage Man (Rousseau?) to the forefront, and the elimination of the rulebook provided by civilization that has re-shaped our fundamental life priorities. The elimination of civilization, both literal and philosophical, would result in disorder or chaos. Chaos being a descent into savagery, with obvious prioritization of self-preservation.


That would be a valid point if your friend were interested in Batman because of his psychological background. Is that the case? Or does he just think he's a badass, which is more common?

He does in part, actually. I don't know which is more common, though I could certainly hazard a guess. I don't see how majority opinion is relevant, though, considering that I'm speaking exclusively about people with a psych background.


If the comics focused on emotion and weakness, I think they would be respectable. The problem is that they instead focus on as much badassery as possible. And isn't Sentry the epitome of this kind of thinking? Marvel characters no longer have any kind of emotional consistency to them. They're just action figures that get posed however they need to be for the next big "epic" event, which usually means something happening that can potentially destroy everything and needs to be stopped. How epic!

That takes two things Marvel seems to lack, though:
1) A willingness to progress characters, possibly even losing some in the process.
2) Talent.

This is also why Square-Enix RPGs have started to blow, and why no one liked the Star Wars prequels. All flash, no substance.

You'll find no argument here that Marvel has utilized a lot of bad writers recently. And the inconsistency is an unfortunate byproduct of having so many writers on a particular character at a given time. It's hit or miss.
 

Azure J

Member
I'm going to have to go back through all these posts when I'm not half asleep with a rather tender head, but I just wanted to ask Frantic/Darksim/Solune/Dante-GAF something. With the regards to the use of Million Carats as an entry mix up tool, does it have enough frames of activity that Million Carats xx Devil Trigger - Air Trick could cross up if done perfectly? I just had the idea and I'd love to test it, but I'm not near the Xbox and I'm tired as shit. :lol
 
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