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[Horseress]

I present to you Exhibit A: Pandora

Pandora is A LOT more useful after the 2013 patch. Still hard as fuck to setup it, but they made it better, so it's not a valid example

 

[Dahbomb]

If you just sit on the ground and block, Morrigan can't even build 1/3 of a meter by spamming Soul Fist x Fly, Soul Fist x Unfly.

So by not playing and giving up positional advantage I give her some meter, free chip and free assist calls.

So what happens if I try to play? I give her more meter and free chip or worse get hit by a fireball.

And not only that but if you sit on the ground and block Morrigan is going to get in and open you up with Missiles. This is what ChrisG does to people who like to block on the ground, he rushes them down and opens them up. And no way can anyone contest this with Missiles locking them down.

And we didn't really address one Frank West problem: how goddamn hard he is to kill once you get him. With an AA assist, huge normals, boosted health, an invincible hyper, and his roll, it's really hard to hurt Frank West.

That's the point.

 

[GuardianE]

Pandora is A LOT more useful after the 2013 patch. Still hard as fuck to setup it, but they made it better, so it's not a valid example

It went from zero use to having one restrictive use. Am I right? I don't actually know what else you can do with that Kamikaze mechanic.

And not only that but if you sit on the ground and block Morrigan is going to get in and open you up with Missiles. This is what ChrisG does to people who like to block on the ground, he rushes them down and opens them up. And no way can anyone contest this with Missiles locking them down.

I hope to God that missiles are not going to stay the same.

 

[Dahbomb]

Missiles are not going to stay the same.

I still haven't seen a proposed Missile change that rectifies the problem with AV + Missiles. Having half the missiles disappear if you land a hit on Doom is not even close to being sufficient especially when you are sitting in the corner blocking Soul Fists and Missiles.

 

["God's Beard!"]

You've weakened Fatal Claw on a character that needed 2 bars to kill a 900k health character. Now his meterless combos are doing 440k. Fatal Claw fully mashed at max scaling is barely breaking 100k now.

Rocket Raccoon's combos are more reliable now, but they haven't been extended at all. Believe me, trap OTGs in combos won't help and shouldn't be a change regardless. That means he's doing corner combos that hit for less than 350k meterless with a hyper tacked on that does less than 150k.

Storm does less damage than before, and she can't kill assists with Hailstorm x-factor Hailstorm anymore.

It reeks of laziness, it feels arbitrary, and I don't like it one bit.

 

[Dahbomb]

You've weakened Fatal Claw on a character that needed 2 bars to kill a 900k health character. Now his meterless combos are doing 440k. Fatal Claw fully mashed at max scaling is barely breaking 100k now.

How the hell is Fatal Claw just barely breaking 100K now? Wolverine getting 440K meterless damage is exceptional considering his mix up/reset game.

It isn't a universal damage nerf it's a universal hit point increase by 20%. Low health characters gain less health proportionally speaking, high health characters get more. So a 800K health character is not going to have a million health. Wolverine can still easily kill a character who used to be 800K in health by doing BnB assist extension Berserker Barrage X into DHC. What has changed now is that he actually needs to perform a DHC to kill where as before he would just do Fatal Claw loop and recover in time for the incoming character, marginalizing the need for good team composition and team hypers.

Given the amount of buffs we have given Storm in the neutral, her damage is also fair. In fact her damage had always been fair it's the other characters that had way more damage. Faster Typhoon means potential relaunches for her especially in the corner, faster flight activation means she can now do a flight combo after a jump cancel series all of these things up her damage potential. We even increased the damage on LS so the hyper has more utility.

A character with self unblockables, instant overheads, top support capabilities having that low damage is perfectly acceptable. Plus buffing his j.S improves his aerial hit confirmations as well so that is also a sort of net damage buff on him. No one ever complained about RR having to perform resets on Thor before, he still is able to kill Thor in reasonable amount of time.

 

[Karsticles]

An e-mail I sent to Viscant:

Hey Viscant,

I read your post on Broken Tier, and I am not thrilled with some of your suggestions. Others really do please me, because they're very much in line with my own thinking. On NeoGAF, we are working on a community patch list that requires consensus from 4 committee members who are all avid fans of the game before becoming finalized. If you ever felt like getting a NeoGAF account and joining in, I know we'd all love to have your say in there as well. Here is a link to our current changelist, which is not finalized but is sort of in a wet cement stage right now:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=42832233&postcount=3

We're going through the characters in groups of 4.

Here is what I specifically disagree with you about in your post (anything else I am in agreement on, so I'll skip praising you for each point):
*TACs: leaving them random but unusable. TACs are a new mechanic in the game, and they are a good idea. New ways of making different teams viable, and new levels of strategy, are a great thing. They are poorly implemented now, but I don't think crippling the mechanic is the right answer.

*Incoming mix-ups: their real problem is the ambiguous crossunder characters are subjected to. A good example: I was playing locals at a new place (I recently moved to CO) last week, and I fought a Spider-man player. On incoming, he would Spider Sting. Sometimes it hit right, sometimes it hit left. In practice, I have absolutely no way of telling which way this will hit, and it's not enjoyable. There's no skill involved in blocking it, I just have to guess. Incoming mix-ups are good, but something has to be done about these 50/50 setups where neither player actually knows what the mix-up will be (see: Haggar). Air dashing just means I eat Web Throw instead.

*Net Play: You should have advocated for more netcode improvements!

*Vergil: he also needs a nerf on Devil Trigger in X-Factor. Install hypers should not stack multiplicatively with X-Factor buffs in general.

*Astral Vision: the opponent already gets double meter from blocking Morrigan and the clone, and without Hidden Missiles it's really not that strong of a hyper. I think the meter gain nerf is playing too hard to the current meta.

*Frank West: I'm actually just curious about your thoughts on GAF's recommended changes compared to yours.

*Iron Man: he is not fun to play in his current form. People like to zone with big normals while chipping opponents out. No one likes to zone while doing nothing at all because you get pushblocked out and have no speed for a pressure game. See: Ghost Rider. People only use Iron Man for the assist or out of character loyalty. No one enjoys him.

*C. Viper: it is not okay that you can chain EX attacks together for one long meter-expensive gamble.

*Spencer: I don't see how he's a fading character. Free approaches with frame advantage, and the overhead doesn't need to stay relevant because he has command grabs that lead to big damage.

*Chris: he doesn't need a horizontal air shot any more than Wesker does. A change like this will just make him more similar to Deadpool. Deadpool has the versatility, Chris has the power. I think that's good the way it is.

One of my projects with the patch notes is giving every character 3 good assists. I would like to see the notion of "support" and "point" characters go away. The notion of a "point" character leads to team decay, because a few point characters will always shine above the rest (Wolverine over X-23 and Felicia, for example). If you make every character viable in every position, team creativity will flourish, because Wolverine and X-23 can both have a place on a team, etc. They're now in complimentary positions, not competitive ones.

Thanks for writing the post, and thanks for reading my response.

Regards,
Karst

So by not playing and giving up positional advantage I give her some meter, free chip and free assist calls.

So what happens if I try to play? I give her more meter and free chip or worse get hit by a fireball.

And not only that but if you sit on the ground and block Morrigan is going to get in and open you up with Missiles. This is what ChrisG does to people who like to block on the ground, he rushes them down and opens them up. And no way can anyone contest this with Missiles locking them down.

That's the point.

I was just giving one example of how little it builds. Astral Vision only builds a lot of meter if you start getting hit by the Soul Fists or get comboed.

If it can't build meter, I would need something to compensate. Like Finishing Shower and Shadow Servant no longer making AV end. Otherwise it's too much of a meter drain on her.

 

[Dahbomb]

Like Finishing Shower and Shadow Servant no longer making AV end.

That's perfectly acceptable as long as it doesn't lead to wonky shit like double missiles coming out from both sides. That's potential for glitches and stuff. Just have AV remain active and only one Morrigan throws out the SS/Missiles hyper.

Also stuff like other meter building assist and Soul Drain should still build meter during AV. No one should take that away.

 

[Karsticles]

That's perfectly acceptable as long as it doesn't lead to wonky shit like double missiles coming out from both sides. That's potential for glitches and stuff. Just have AV remain active and only one Morrigan throws out the SS/Missiles hyper.

But the clone is mirroring her actions. -_-

 

[GuardianE]

I don't see how mirrored supers would cause glitches any more than other mirrored movements.

 

[Dahbomb]

I don't see how mirrored supers would cause glitches any more than other mirrored movements.

Hey man let her have it for all I care. I am just saying it might lead to glitchy stuff. There's probably a reason why it's not allowed in the game.

 

["God's Beard!"]

It isn't a universal damage nerf it's a universal hit point increase by 20%.

I must be losing my mind.

Damage Changes:
*All damage decreased by 20% across the board.
*Chip damage increased by 5% (to 35%).
*Damage scaling now applies to assists.

How the hell is Fatal Claw just barely breaking 100K now? Wolverine getting 440K meterless damage is exceptional considering his mix up/reset game.

362,500 * 0.35 * 0.8 = 101,500 at max scaling. Wolvie doesn't really hit max scaling but you're also nerfing the base damage a bit so it trades out about the same. I just did one of Justin Wong's basic combos with Akuma assist to help the OTG and it did about 480k meterless and 620k with Fatal Claw doing about 140k.

So in the new version that's 384k meterless, and some unknown number under 496k with one fatal claw. Wolverine is already one of the few top tier characters that relies on resets.

Given the amount of buffs we have given Storm in the neutral, her damage is also fair. In fact her damage had always been fair it's the other characters that had way more damage.

And you're also knocking 20% off her. I have my doubts that extra relaunches and moving flight mode slightly further into her combos will even keep her damage at the same level.

A character with self unblockables, instant overheads, top support capabilities having that low damage is perfectly acceptable. Plus buffing his j.S improves his aerial hit confirmations as well so that is also a sort of net damage buff on him. No one ever complained about RR having to perform resets on Thor before, he still is able to kill Thor in reasonable amount of time.

That's a terribly un thought-out comment. He'll still only get 3 jump loops(that do no damage), it's just gonna drop them low enough to hit with his stumpy standing normals so he can launch more often.

Nobody complains about Thor with Rocket Raccoon because nobody plays Thor or Rocket Raccoon.

He has one self unblockable that assumes you're using him on point with a lockdown assist, and that your opponent isn't holding forward on wakeup.

An e-mail I sent to Viscant:

Why didn't you mention your 20% damage nerf you love so much? He did mention netcode in there. "FIX IT."

 

[MiniBossBattle]

Having the ability for your point character to lock down a team with eight safe fireballs doing chip for almost 1/2 your health, with overhead missle cover (which builds meter when hit), spiral kick AND build meter too so you can do it all over again?
Don't forget that her combos while AV build a ton of meter too.

Thats bull. Removing meter gain in AV retains her but there is the tension of her ability to build enough meter to start the minefield again.

Almost as ridiculous as Shuma's 3 dashes per jump.

 

[Dahbomb]

362,500 * 0.35 * 0.8 = 101,500 at max scaling. Wolvie doesn't really hit max scaling but you're also nerfing the base damage a bit so it trades out about the same. I just did one of Justin Wong's basic combos with Akuma assist to help the OTG and it did about 480k meterless and 620k with Fatal Claw doing about 140k.

So in the new version that's 384k meterless, and some unknown number under 496k with one fatal claw. Wolverine is already one of the few top tier characters that relies on resets

Are you setting up the Fatal Claw properly? Because when set up properly it does huge damage even at max scaling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrfXslGDe44

This is the combo that Justin does. That seems like you aren't setting it up properly if you are getting 620K when it in fact easily breaks 700K.

Also hyper combo scaling does not apply for mashable hypers (at least the damage that is mashable).

I must be losing my mind.

You aren't losing your mind, that is not stated correctly in the changelog as are quite a few other things. If this was actually a 20% damage nerf there would also be a meter nerf as well and we don't want that. So there is a 20% health buff so people can still rely on the damage number of their previous combos (a 1 million damage combo will still do 1 milllion damage).

 

["God's Beard!"]

Are you setting up the Fatal Claw properly? Because when set up properly it does huge damage even at max scaling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrfXslGDe44

This is the combo that Justin does. That seems like you aren't setting it up properly if you are getting 620K when it in fact easily breaks 700K.

Also hyper combo scaling does not apply for mashable hypers (at least the damage that is mashable).

I started off two crouch shorts with that particular combo. Which is something Wolverine players do a lot. Even so, that's only a 50k difference in combos after your scaling. So your more optimized one is some unknown number under 550k.

 

[Frantic]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72368936]362,500 * 0.35 * 0.8 = 101,500 at max scaling. Wolvie doesn't really hit max scaling but you're also nerfing the base damage a bit so it trades out about the same. I just did one of Justin Wong's basic combos with Akuma assist to help the OTG and it did about 480k meterless and 620k with Fatal Claw doing about 140k.

So in the new version that's 384k meterless, and some unknown number under 496k with one fatal claw. Wolverine is already one of the few top tier characters that relies on resets.[/QUOTE]You're doing the math wrong.

Unmashed Fatal Claw does 40k x 13. 40 * .8 = 32. 32k x 13. 32 * .35 = 11.2k. Ergo, 11.2k x 13, which comes out to 142k.

Mashed Fatal claw does 48k x 12 + 40k x 1. 48 * .8 = 38.4k. 38.4 * .35 = 13.44. Ergo, 13.44k x 12 = 161.28 + 11.2 x1 which = 172.48.

You can't take the total damage value off a clean hit, because the move automatically starts to scale down so it comes out wrong. You have the take the unscaled damage of the first hit, then do the math, then apply it to the total amount of hits.

 

[Dahbomb]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72371051]I started off two crouch shorts with that particular combo. Which is something Wolverine players do a lot.[/QUOTE]
Wolverine players also start off their combos with Dive Kick as well. Starting off a Wolverine combo with st.L is acceptable in terms of considering his average damage.

In any case Fatal Claw still does a shit ton of damage if it's off a throw, off of cr.Ls or whatever the hell. Maybe you aren't mashing properly or something.

 

["God's Beard!"]

You're doing the math wrong.

Unmashed Fatal Claw does 40k x 13. 40 * .8 = 32. 32k x 13. 32 * .35 = 11.2k. Ergo, 11.2k x 13, which comes out to 142k.

Mashed Fatal claw does 48k x 12 + 40k x 1. 48 * .8 = 38.4k. 38.4 * .35 = 13.44. Ergo, 13.44k x 12 = 161.28 + 11.2 x1 which = 172.48.

You can't take the total damage value off a clean hit, because the move automatically starts to scale down so it comes out wrong. You have the take the unscaled damage of the first hit, then do the math, then apply it to the total amount of hits.

Fine, but I just did a flat 0.8 on the combo values without looking at scaling. That doesn't change.

Wolverine players also start off their combos with Dive Kick as well. Starting off a Wolverine combo with st.L is acceptable in terms of considering his average damage.

In any case Fatal Claw still does a shit ton of damage if it's off a throw, off of cr.Ls or whatever the hell. Maybe you aren't mashing properly or something.

Regardless, the point is you're changing the whole game on an arbitrary number because you personally think damage is too high across the board. When in fact you're making characters that already suck need more hits to kill their opponent.

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72368936]Why didn't you mention your 20% damage nerf you love so much? He did mention netcode in there. "FIX IT."[/QUOTE]
I was specifically pointing out things he said that I disagree with, not things that I think he should have said but didn't.

Read his paragraph about net play again. He only mentions the need to unite the player base; nothing about the netcode.

 

[Dahbomb]

Regardless, the point is you're changing the whole game on an arbitrary number because you personally think damage is too high across the board when in fact you're making characters that already suck need more hits to kill their opponent.

Characters who suck are getting buffed accordingly. Characters who do too much damage on a particular moves/area are getting nerfed. I don't see the issue here. You are getting worried because now Wolverine has to land one additional hit to kill someone?

And again, it's not a damage nerf it's a health increase. I really hope Karst would adjust this because there's a big difference between the two.

 

[Frantic]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72372351]Fine, but I just did a flat 0.8 on the combo values without looking at scaling. That doesn't change.[/QUOTE]Sure, but I gotta call out bad math when I see it!

 

["God's Beard!"]

Characters who suck are getting buffed accordingly.

They aren't. Wolverine needs two hits to kill anybody now, fine. It's really not that different.

Rocket Raccoon needs three. And he's WAY worse at landing hits than Wolverine.

Since we started this thing, I didn't see a single character change that said, "hey, this guy gets 20% less damage so we need to do such and such". Because we're all making changes in context of a game we understand, not one where 90% of the characters in the game need resets suddenly.

I swear, by the time this thing is done, 20% damage reduction will make it a less balanced game than it is now. Especially with Karst's near universal assist buffs.

 

[SolarPowered]

Anyone got the timestamp to Chris G vs Nemo? I don't think it is on youtube.

Having the ability for your point character to lock down a team with eight safe fireballs doing chip for almost 1/2 your health, with overhead missle cover (which builds meter when hit), spiral kick AND build meter too so you can do it all over again?
Don't forget that her combos while AV build a ton of meter too.

Thats bull. Removing meter gain in AV retains her but there is the tension of her ability to build enough meter to start the minefield again.

Almost as ridiculous as Shuma's 3 dashes per jump.

Did you ignore what Karsticles just said about all the meter going to her opponents and not her? You are also going way overboard with half health being gone because of one Astral vision. What kind of person subjects themselves to eight fireballs worth of chip? Can they not move their character at all or are they sitting in the corner like a little "bitch" as Karsticles said?

The thing to remember about Astral Vision is that it already nerfs Morrigan's meter relative to her opponent because all specials/normals build normal meter for Morrigan, but double meter for her opponent because they are getting hit twice. The clone doesn't build meter unless it's Soul Drain. So, if you remove meter gain entirely, that's further upsetting the meter balance in the game.

Crazy stuff

I still feel like halving her meter gain would be just about right.

Tricking people into watching Skullgirls?

It was more about balancing while not trying to fight people's expectations of how a character should play. A lot of people would love to take a pipe to Morrigan or even Doom just out of salt instead of actually thinking it through. That video was sort of related to that. Personally, I want folks to see it so they can understand the "why" behind my changes for Hsien-Ko when her turn comes up.

There is nothing to watch. The video can be minimized and it'd just be Max and Mike talking for five minutes.

I still think it's fine, personally. It would also bother me thematically to nerf Astral Vision's meter gain. Morrigan gets powered up by the thrills of the fight and steals people's souls. No meter gain is like...sad.

That is more of a theme thing. You brought up a lot of gameplay related reasons for why she should gain meter while in AV.

No Morrigan player cares about improving the startup and recovery. Devil Trigger and Sougenmu are fast because they cover mistakes you make. Morrigan doesn't need to cover any mistakes on the ground; she has no ground game.

Nail meets head

AV is not about trying to course correct at all. Yep, it's not about trying to fix mistakes on the ground because Morrigan isn't even supposed to be on the ground in the first place. At least not MvC3 Morrigan...

 

[Dahbomb]

Here's the basic math for what is happening with Wolverine in the new game:

Basic BnB Wolverine combo would now do 650K damage down from 700K damage because now he would have to do Berserker Barrage X finishes for average 1 bar combo. Around 450K damage meterless.

Low health character in old game: 800K. Low health character in new game: 960K
Medium health character in old game: 1 million. Medium health character in new game: 1.2 million

Wolverine would basically take down a low health character in old game to life support with 150K remaining. In new game, he would leave him with around 300K health. In both scenarios he would be able to kill the low health with a reset into a meterless combo... he would just have to work slightly harder for the damage to kill in the new game in that he would actually have to have a few more hits in the combo

Again a medium health character, for both games he would require 2 touches to kill. In old game, he would touch once, use 1 bar... then go for a reset to kill him meterless. Or get a combo, go for a reset and then kill for 1 bar. In new game, he can still kill him in two touches but just barely. He could also go for 1 meterless damage combo for 450K, reset into 700K combo. This would leave the opponent with only 50K health... within chip range. In both scenarios, Wolverine would be able to kill the character in 2 touches if he used the full 700K combo.

Since we started this thing, I didn't see a single character change that said, "hey, this guy gets 20% less damage so we need to do such and such". Because we're all making changes in context of a game we understand, not one where 90% of the characters in the game need resets suddenly.

Nemesis just got a hyper combo scaling buff. Ghost Rider got 15% damage on block from normals (HUGE for him). Storm got her Lighting Storm damage buffed along with her combo potential increased, dramatically I might add. Jill getting 1 bar Mad Beast also ups her damage potential especially since people think it should build meter while active.

Honestly all these changes look more interesting to me than "this guy did bad damage before, buff damage by 20% across the board to compensate".

As far as RR goes, I don't know much about the character and thus I didn't comment much on him. Could he use a damage buff? Sure, go ahead and give him one. It was your responsibility to bring it up and it wasn't brought up.

 

[Karsticles]

I'll change the wording to a 20% health buff.

As far as RR goes, I don't know much about the character and thus I didn't comment much on him. Could he use a damage buff? Sure, go ahead and give him one. It was your responsibility to bring it up and it wasn't brought up.

Quoted for emphasis.

 

["God's Beard!"]

As far as RR goes, I don't know much about the character and thus I didn't comment much on him. Could he use a damage buff? Sure, go ahead and give him one. It was your responsibility to bring it up and it wasn't brought up.

Because I fully intend on fighting universal 20% damage reduction until the whole thing's done and I don't think Raccoon needs a damage buff in the context of the game as it is now.

If a character is too strong and the opportunity vs reward is out of whack, fine, nerf his damage. But 20% universal nerf is thoughtless.

Now characters that can maintain a reset situation got way stronger. Characters that can kill with a reset without needing meter got way stronger. Characters that could kill with two bars and some chip before that have shit resets got sent to the bottom of the barrel. People complain about knockdowns in SF4, but now you're waking up into tracking moves half the size of the screen, Haggar assist is gonna be everywhere. Characters with guaranteed resets become front and center because now almost nobody except them has extra meter for neutral game and incoming mixups.

 

[Dahbomb]

I just looked at all the characters we have done thus far and the two characters that strike me as "these could use more damage" were She Hulk and RR.

She Hulk's damage was still actually improved in that now she has forced wall bounce on her hyper so if you used up the wall bounce before she would now get full damage off combos. The pushback on Torpedo has also been decreased so she now has access to Runner cancel relaunches from mid screen. It doesn't fully cover the 20% health buff but with all the other substantial buffs she got along with other characters getting nerfed in damage directly, she is sort of in a good position now.

Also these were the characters who got a damage nerf (as they should've gotten one): Shuma, Viper, Wolverine, Zero, Frank West (on block), Chris

Characters that can kill with a reset without needing meter got way stronger.

Those characters were nerfed or will get nerfed.

Characters like guaranteed resets become front and center because now almost nobody except them has extra meter for neutral game and incoming mixups.

Who has guaranteed resets? Trish unblockable set up is not a guaranteed reset.

Reset characters are now better? Good. Characters like Felicia and Jill definitely needed help especially when they were going up against characters like Zero/Viper who not only had great mix ups but great damage too.

Oh no... people will have to actually learn resets now. What will all those Zero players do now?

 

["God's Beard!"]

Who has guaranteed resets? Trish unblockable set up is not a guaranteed reset.

There are no options it doesn't cover that aren't punishable other than alpha counter into hard drive then x-factor.

 

[Karsticles]

I just looked at all the characters we have done thus far and the two characters that strike me as "these could use more damage" were She Hulk and RR.

She Hulk's damage was still actually improved in that now she has forced wall bounce on her hyper so if you used up the wall bounce before she would now get full damage off combos. The pushback on Torpedo has also been decreased so she now has access to Runner cancel relaunches from mid screen. It doesn't fully cover the 20% health buff but with all the other substantial buffs she got along with other characters getting nerfed in damage directly, she is sort of in a good position now.

Yes, we really haven't dealt with any of the low damage characters yet, like Felicia. Also, since Emerald Cannon now causes a forced wall bounce, she should be able to link multiple hypers together for more damage.

Also these were the characters who got a damage nerf (as they should've gotten one): Shuma, Viper, Wolverine, Zero, Frank West (on block), Chris

I wouldn't mind reducing Frank West's minumum normal scaling to 15%.

 

[Dahbomb]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72380561]There are no options it doesn't cover that aren't punishable other than alpha counter into hard drive then x-factor.[/QUOTE]
So a 1 bar reset that requires a low hitting assist on the team.

Meh. I would much rather prefer a team which is harder to approach and land a hit on which can do meterless resets that are powerful along with stronger neutral assists. But that's just me.

Or you know... you can nerf the guaranteed resets. Unless you think they aren't that strong in which case... who cares.

I wouldn't mind reducing Frank West's minumum normal scaling to 15%.

No way he's fine. With the health buff his damage is fine because he would actually have to DHC to kill now off of a regular combo. Plus the chip nerf is more than enough.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Why are you such a bitch?

Isn't that the point of the whole thing? Nitpicking to make a better game? I haven't heard one reason universal damage nerf is less arbitrary than fixing characters individually.

So a 1 bar reset that requires a low hitting assist on the team.

Meh. I would much rather prefer a team which is harder to approach and land a hit on which can do meterless resets that are powerful along with stronger neutral assists. But that's just me.

Trish with Doom beam is an easy to approach and has a weak neutral assist?

 

[Dahbomb]

Trish with Doom beam is an easy to approach and has a weak neutral assist?

Low gun shot is.

I haven't heard one reason universal damage nerf is less arbitrary than fixing characters individually.

Because we are doing both?

 

[GuardianE]

Oh, I missed She-Hulk day?

 

["God's Beard!"]

Low gun shot is.

So is whirlwind and that assist was on the second place team at EVO. Not every team needs two amazing neutral assists. But low shot unlocks Trish.

Same way Captain America with Unibeam is a better team than with Plasma Beam even though Doom is a better character than Iron Man.

I didn't think I'd have to explain that.

Because we are doing both?

So redundancy is your answer?

Oh, I missed She-Hulk day?

Feel free to add your insight, only the focus changes as we move along.

 

[Karsticles]

Oh, I missed She-Hulk day?

It's not like we threw the changes in a vault and destroyed the key. Comment away.

 

[SolarKnight]

As far as RR goes, I don't know much about the character and thus I didn't comment much on him. Could he use a damage buff? Sure, go ahead and give him one. It was your responsibility to bring it up and it wasn't brought up.

So it only matters if GB brings it up? Because I did. At least twice >_>

 

[Dahbomb]

So is whirlwind and that assist was on the second place team at EVO. Not every team needs two amazing neutral assists. But low shot unlocks Trish.

And that's perfectly fine. But some teams are also better with two amazing assists and that's how it is. Some people prefer having those two assists over a guaranteed reset set up. Reducing the impact of TACs already improves the potency of reset characters so obviously that team was going to be better off but you can't tell me that team is going to run the game where everyone will pick that team. How many Trish unblockable teams were at EVO? Exactly.

On the note of WHY we need a 20% health buff... it's very simple. It's because stuff like X factor, DHCs, combos that use double assists, LVL3 hypers, raw tag combos, powerful incoming mix up exist. Even if you "normalize" every character it's not going to take away from characters getting killed fast and hard. Hell... even with a 20% health buff I showed how you are still killing characters reasonably fast with basic combos... when you start bringing in XF and all that stuff into the mix the damage starts to pile up. As far as zoning goes, it's practically the same as before.

So it only matters if GB brings it up? Because I did. At least twice >_>

And I said improving scaling was not the issue after which I didn't get a reply. You would have to improve the base damage of RR's normals by around 15% across the board.

 

[Karsticles]

So it only matters if GB brings it up? Because I did. At least twice >_>

IIRC, your words were "he could use a damage buff", which is awfully non-committal, and you didn't follow that up with any evidence or argument about why that's the case. It looks to me like his bnb does over 600K for one bar, and I'd need an argument as to why it should be higher than that.

 

[SolarKnight]

I said "better base damage/scaling" as in whatever works best of those two.

 

[GuardianE]

It's not like we threw the changes in a vault and destroyed the key. Comment away.

Actually, you guys covered practically everything that I had issues with. The only real concerns I have involve frame data, but I don't have my guide handy. Was there a particular reason why people felt she needed a better j.H?

 

[Karsticles]

I said "better base damage/scaling" as in whatever works best of those two.

Well, I'm still entirely open to changes - make the argument that he should do more than the ~620K he does for one bar off of a c.L right now.

Actually, you guys covered practically everything that I had issues with. The only real concerns I have involve frame data, but I don't have my guide handy. Was there a particular reason why people felt she needed a better j.H?

I think the j.H hitbox got nerfed in Ultimate, so we just wanted to bring it closer to its Vanilla status, where it was really strong.

 

[Dahbomb]

You can probably improve scaling of specials from 15% to 20% which would be fair. Normal damage scaling is average especially for a character who has hard to block mix ups.

Beyond this you just have to increase the damage of his basic normals by 15% across the board. So his j.S goes from 70K to 80K damage. He doesn't use his normals a lot in combos so this is not going to lead to huge damage or anything like that.

I would say with these changes he can probably break 700K damage off of an optimized combo.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I'm talking about how you sit on your grievances and then bring them up long after we're done talking about them. It's so goddamn annoying. Everyone was in agreement on the damage nerf, and you were quiet.

I agree, I should have said something when it mattered.

7/17-7/19:

You aren't for a universal damage nerf?

 

[smurfx]

i see viscant has similar thoughts about frank west as i do.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

FUCK FRANK WEST

 

[GuardianE]

I think the j.H hitbox got nerfed in Ultimate, so we just wanted to bring it closer to its Vanilla status, where it was really strong.

Hm, I don't think it was. It's still a huge swinging half circle hitbox beneath her, good for crossups and a lot of hitstun... but ultimately, I don't think that it really changes anything. It's already very good. It just gives her a stronger option select airthrow.

 

[Karsticles]

I also said I would grudgingly agree to a damage nerf, which I took back the moment Capcom said they were listening.

Sit down.

Why were you even doing this if you weren't taking it seriously to begin with? More bitch stuff.

 

[Dahbomb]

So new proposed change on Rocket Raccoon is improved based damage of all his basic normals by 15% and improving his scaling on special attacks from 15% to 20%.

If people are fine with this then this will go into the changelog. Otherwise speak on how this would be too broken or something.

Honestly speaking the reason why I was hesitant on RR getting a damage buff is because A) TACs being nerfed meant that reset/mix up characters are more valuable and useful and B) nerfing the damage of other high damage characters indirectly buffs RR. His damage appears more normalized in comparison.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Sit down.

Why were you even doing this if you weren't taking it seriously to begin with? More bitch stuff.

Who said I wasn't taking the changes seriously? I've added a ton of legitimate input on a variety of characters. You guys added things in on your own lists that were my ideas from months ago, like extra airdashes for Storm. Of course I care about balancing the game.

As for the damage thing, I'm not just parroting the same thing over and over.
I've tried to explain as many ways as I can think why damage nerf is a bad idea. I've brought up how it could piss off players by changing the pace of the game. I brought up that it's an unlikely and arbitrary change. I've tried to come up with some concrete examples of how you're unintentionally shifting the balance with such a change.

That's pathos, ethos and today, logos. I don't know any other ways to present my argument. You can't fault me for trying to bring up a new way to look at something. I brought it up because it was a new way of illustrating the problem that I thought might help make my case.

But apparently that only deserves name calling from you.

From you, who so far can't explain to me why UMVC3 needs a universal damage nerf over itemized changes. So far you and Dahbomb have only tried to convince me that it doesn't break the game, not that it's calling out for it. The only justification so far was when Dahbomb said there are players that would like less damage as well as those who would be mad. So that's pathos, kinda.

 

[Karsticles]

So new proposed change on Rocket Raccoon is improved based damage of all his basic normals by 15% and improving his scaling on special attacks from 15% to 20%.

If people are fine with this then this will go into the changelog. Otherwise speak on how this would be too broken or something.

Honestly speaking the reason why I was hesitant on RR getting a damage buff is because A) TACs being nerfed meant that reset/mix up characters are more valuable and useful and B) nerfing the damage of other high damage characters indirectly buffs RR. His damage appears more normalized in comparison.

I don't understand why 620K for one bar is too little for a character with excellent mobility, a self-crossups, a teleport, massive screen coverange, and self-unblockables with an assist. I don't know why 620K is too little for any character, really, but we're talking about RR. I'm not in support of a damage increase on him until I hear actual reasons why he needs more damage. Firebrand barely does 500K with his normal bnb, and I don't plan on asking for more damage for him.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72389116]Who said I wasn't taking the changes seriously? I've added a ton of legitimate input on a variety of characters. You guys added things in on your own lists that were my ideas from months ago, like extra airdashes for Storm. Of course I care about balancing the game.[/quote]
You demonstrated that you weren't taking it seriously by changing a position just because you thought the possibility of the patch became real. I'm sure you take it seriously now, but you weren't before. That's what I'm talking about.

I didn't pull the extra air dash idea for Storm from you, but I'm glad you brought that up, because I want to gauge how folks feel about reducing her back to 1 air dash but returning the Float + assist call ability. Since Viscant suggested it, I wonder if people will be more warm to the idea.

As for the damage thing, I'm not just parroting the same thing over and over.
I've tried to explain as many ways as I can think why damage nerf is a bad idea. I've brought up how it could piss off players by changing the pace of the game. I brought up that it's an unlikely and arbitrary change. I've tried to come up with some concrete examples of how you're unintentionally shifting the balance with such a change.

That's pathos, ethos and today, logos. I don't know any other ways to present my argument. You can't fault me for trying to bring up a new way to look at something. I brought it up because it was a new way of illustrating the problem that I thought might help make my case.

But apparently that only deserves name calling from you.

All of your reasons have been countered, though, and then you drop the conversation, only to mysteriously re-appear with the same position later. Pathos and ethos don't matter in these discussions, only logos. And "it could anger people" is not an argument of ethos; ethos presumes that the opinion is actually had by someone, and that the person is an authority/expert to lend the opinion credibility. Pathos is about inciting feelings within others; I don't see where you have done that.