Support NeoGAF

[Renegade_Civil-War]

I say our next batch of characters is a bunch of low-damage wonders so we can make GB feel better about the 20% health buff.

Trish
Hsien-ko
Arthur
Firebrand
Amaterasu

I didn't notice one thing in the assists/systems discussion post. Are we letting invincible/armor assists back in? I say yes.

I think its really dumb that assist versions of normal moves that have invincibility don't have them in game... for example

Captain America uppercut
Ryu Uppercut
Akuma Uppercut
Jill Somersault
Arthur's Heavanly Slash

Not to mention Tron/Haggar

I'm probably forgetting a few.

And then the assist moves that have armor don't i.e. Hulk/Nemesis/She Hulk

However, the game currently allows most "uppercut" style assists to have invincibility when used as a crossover counter even if they didn't have it prior: even X23, Wolverine, Spiderman.




Onto these four:


Arthur
Shield Deflect can be held nullifies all projectiles
Gold armor Shield deflect nullifies hyper Projectiles
2 frame startup
Can Cancel Armor breaking into supers once landed
Lance charge (20f->15f startup, 1 hit armor, -4 to -1 on block. Gold version 2 hits armor?)


Firebrand-
health increase
damage increase
flying grab doesn't unblock able in guardstun



Hsien Ko-
Decrease startup of pendulum by at least 10 frames (currently 29, 33, 37) (what would allow it to combo?)
S cancels pendulum in jumping state (delay?)
speed her up by at least 10% overall
lessen recovery on dash (airborne and grounded)
Armor lasts 10 seconds. (up from 5)
Gong assist is H instead of M gong
Add Dash cancelable normals (stand H?)
Give bomb item toss a hitbox if they connect within first 15 frames of being tossed.
Make Spike Ball super hit high (gong) then low (balls) like in VS. Make it recover instantly while the balls bounce around. Make the command the demon command it was in VS.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I think Nemesis' punch hyper should by 100% hyper armor, not just until recovery. In exchange, keep the old startup. Nemesis eating everything would be awesome.

Well, I was thinking it could at least give him the ability to do raw tag combo setups. Or at the very least something like backthrow->landing on a net trap.

Net Trap working like Peekaboo would solve it but new animations are out.

 

[Dahbomb]

I like those Deadpool changes.

 

[Frantic]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72404651]I think Nemesis' punch hyper should by 100% hyper armor, not just until recovery. In exchange, keep the old startup. Nemesis eating everything would be awesome.[/QUOTE]It's not even hyper armor, is it? Isn't it something stupid like 10 hits of super armor?

 

[Karsticles]

Yeah, Nemesis just has 10 hits of super armor. I am changing that to hyper armor since that is dumb.

Trish doesn't do low damage. She just has very limited combo potential, which gives the illusion of low damage.

Also, I couldn't think of anything to change about Jill other than the fact I absolutely hate playing against a good one.

And here's my old Deadpool changelist, taking out a few that are already addressed or not really appropriate for the other changes in the current list:

+ Increase hitstun and blockstun on j.L by four frames.
+ Ninja Gift M hits OTG
+ Katana-Rama L and M cause soft-knockdown

Also, I don't think Cuttin' Time should be a hard knockdown unless you change the knockdown to not shoot people a million feet into the air.

Can you explain your changes and why you want them?

I kind of want Deadpool to get a combo extension off of Cuttin' Time. I was thinking I would do the same for X-23.

Trish bnb:
c.LLMHS, sj.M, d.H, qcb.L, j.MH, s.HS, sj.MMHS, TK High Voltage

618,000 damage, a little less than Rocket Raccoon, and the RR players are complaining about his damage.

I didn't notice one thing in the assists/systems discussion post. Are we letting invincible/armor assists back in? I say yes.

I think its really dumb that assist versions of normal moves that have invincibility don't have them in game... for example

Captain America uppercut
Ryu Uppercut
Akuma Uppercut
Jill Somersault
Arthur's Heavanly Slash

Not to mention Tron/Haggar

I'm probably forgetting a few.

And then the assist moves that have armor don't i.e. Hulk/Nemesis/She Hulk

However, the game currently allows most "uppercut" style assists to have invincibility when used as a crossover counter even if they didn't have it prior: even X23, Wolverine, Spiderman.

I'm removing most of those moves as assists because they suck.

 

[GuardianE]

I didn't notice one thing in the assists/systems discussion post. Are we letting invincible/armor assists back in? I say yes.

Hell to the no.

 

["God's Beard!"]

And one more change slot has opened for RR, so:
Rocket Raccoon:
*Bear Trap startup reduced to 15 frames.
*Mad Hopper is now a permanent projectile.
*Rocket Raccoon’s aerial series is now more reliable.
*Oil Bomb fire is refreshed when a new Oil Bomb is thrown on it.
*j.S hitstun increased significantly.
*Rocket Skate now cancelable into j.S.
*Spitfire projectile durability changed to 4 per shot.
*Spitfire (air) can be canceled into Rocket Skates.
*Grab Bag startup reduced to 20 frames; damage decay from resulting combos decreased.
*Trap duration increased to 300 frames.

Assists: Double Spitfire M, Pendulum, Oil Bomb

dp Traps air OK?

And shouldn't Oil Bomb refreshing be Oil Bomb now activated by any projectile?

The old startup was so slow that it could never hit anything, though. Characters recover and block in time.

To body the FUCK out of characters when they can't DHC.

Do you think it should have hyper armor while in recovery from the hyper, too?

Yessir, 100% unpunishable other than the fact that he takes 100% of the damage from attacks that hit him.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

At least you're honest about your bias.

Felicia's damage will be upped a bit.

Oh yes I'm certainly biased because I'm thinking about how fucked I might be if I don't get that kill on Doom, haha. One of the most annoying matchups in the game.....seriously.

But it actually goes for everyone, that's why I gave the Thor example. Not everyone has the tools to easily land a hit, so if they happen to, I think they deserve their kill if they can extend the combo enough to do it. Zero can easily land hits, therefore he does not deserve it. Same would go for Felicia if she did have any TOD's

I actually like getting in there and fighting with Chris, so it's just kinda disappointing. Granted I get more chip damage now....so there's that. That flamethrower chip is gonna be so tasty.

 

[Dahbomb]

Just a change on the QCB rocket for Nemesis. It's not for full screen its for mid screen. Nemesis already has his TK Rocket Launcher for full screen zoning. So the QCB rocket hits closer to Nemesis. Like if he was backed into a corner the rocket would hit the middle of the screen.

 

[biosnake20]

You know how there's a little bit of health hidden behind the HUD in marvel? Fix that.

 

[Professor Beef]

You know how there's a little bit of health hidden behind the HUD in marvel? Fix that.

You mean the magic pixel? I like that it's there tbh

 

[DeadPhoenix9065]

You know how there's a little bit of health hidden behind the HUD in marvel? Fix that.

Really? The hidden pixel.
The sequel to magic pixel lol

 

[biosnake20]

You mean the magic pixel? I like that it's there tbh

I hate it.

 

[Karsticles]

Oh yes I'm certainly biased because I'm thinking about how fucked I might be if I don't get that kill on Doom, haha. One of the most annoying matchups in the game.....seriously.

But it actually goes for everyone, that's why I gave the Thor example. Not everyone has the tools to easily land a hit, so if they happen to, I think they deserve their kill if they can extend the combo enough to do it. Zero can easily land hits, therefore he does not deserve it. Same would go for Felicia if she did have any TOD's

I actually like getting in there and fighting with Chris, so it's just kinda disappointing. Granted I get more chip damage now....so there's that. That flamethrower chip is gonna be so tasty.

Did you notice that we gave Chris an overhead?

Just a change on the QCB rocket for Nemesis. It's not for full screen its for mid screen. Nemesis already has his TK Rocket Launcher for full screen zoning. So the QCB rocket hits closer to Nemesis. Like if he was backed into a corner the rocket would hit the middle of the screen.

The rockets are like 45 recover any -19 on block. I don't see anyone using that. I thought you were adding a scrubby option for people who can't TK, or something.

You know how there's a little bit of health hidden behind the HUD in marvel? Fix that.

Did I just warp back to Vanilla? ;-)

 

[Dahbomb]

You know how there's a little bit of health hidden behind the HUD in marvel? Fix that.

Nah man magic pixel is HYPE!

Also improve the frame data on Mad Beast so its more like a Berserker Charge where you can do stuff like Slide -> Mad Beast pressure. From 10+1 to 4+1.

I forgot to add that the QCB was going to have better frame data. Don't know how much it should be but definitely not -19. Probably need to add some push back on it as well.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I don't think I can get behind RR superjumping over someone and making Mr. Hopper appear beneath them.

:-( Just buff his normals advantage by 5/6 frames each so he gets more loops then.

I thought Oil Bomb already went off from anything; my bad, and fixed. Should it be any projectile, or any friendly projectile?

Any, that way it doubles as an anti-projectile trap.

 

[Renegade_Civil-War]

I'm removing most of those moves as assists because they suck.

Hell to the no.

Care to explain why? Currently theres no GTFOff me assists in the game. I think this has contributed to the games dumbness.

Haggar and Tron were bad in Vanilla because

1)haggar had years of invincibility and hard knockdown
2) tron was nearly unpunishable and led to combos.

I think AA assists could be back if they

A) didn't allow full combos (make them knock up and recover fast)
B) kept the vulnerable taunt animation.



I think without them, you're really keeping up the Divekick/Airdash or teleport+assist crossover fest we have now.

Not to mention none of those characters are currently top tier or anything, and could use some Assist only roles.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Did you notice that we gave Chris an overhead?

Oh right....Chris overhead! I take it all back....kinda, haha.

 

[Frantic]

Can you explain your changes and why you want them?

Deadpool's j.L is his best air-to-ground normal since it's fast and the most obvious to defend against anti-airs, but the hitstun and blockstun isn't great. +6 on hit, +5 on block. With 4 additional frames of hitstun and blockstun, it becomes +10 and +9, much more reasonable compared to other j.Ls.

I figure Ninja Gift M would provide some interesting combo extensions. That and it looks like it should OTG. >_>

Katana-Rama L and M are kinda hard to convert off later in certain combos because they flip out before Chimichangas hit.

I kind of want Deadpool to get a combo extension off of Cuttin' Time. I was thinking I would do the same for X-23.

With the way it goes now, it'll probably be loopable with multiple Cuttin' Times. I just feel it's arbitrary and not needed.

Trish bnb:
c.LLMHS, sj.M, d.H, qcb.L, j.MH, s.HS, sj.MMHS, TK High Voltage

618,000 damage, a little less than Rocket Raccoon, and the RR players are complaining about his damage.

My basic solo BnB does 650k off a tridash j.L. I can push close to 700k with an assist extension. Off a Peekaboo setup airthrow, I can get 500k. It's not really low damage, she just has really shitty combo potential. I feel there needs to be a stated difference since I'd rather have better combo potential than just buffing base damage or some such.

 

[biosnake20]

The hidden pixel is as hype as weskers hyper crossing up. It should be removed.

 

[GuardianE]

Care to explain why? Currently theres no GTFOff me assists in the game. I think this has contributed to the games dumbness.

Haggar and Tron were bad in Vanilla because

1)haggar had years of invincibility and hard knockdown
2) tron was nearly unpunishable and led to combos.

I think AA assists could be back if they

A) didn't allow full combos (make them knock up and recover fast)
B) kept the vulnerable taunt animation.

I think without them, you're really keeping up the Divekick/Airdash or teleport+assist crossover fest we have now.

Not to mention none of those characters are currently top tier or anything, and could use some Assist only roles.

A lot of the assists you suggest already do the thing that you want, without invincibility. They act as GTFO me assists because of their hitboxes and because they come out in 3 frames or so.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Nemesis anchor vs full team with no x-factor. Team goes full screen, follow my lead.

Biohazard Rush, motherfucker. Takes a day to get there but he started on Christmas Eve, bitch.

Ultradavid's reaction on stream:

 

[Dahbomb]

There is no change on Viper's FA I just noticed.

Just copy paste what Azure J said. Aerial FA hit causes a simple strike you can recover out of and ground hit is the same which causes a crumple. I cannot let a Viper changelog get through without a FA nerf.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Nah man, magic pixel's gotta stay. It causes so much rage.

 

[Karsticles]

Some choice ideas from the GFAQs balance thread:

what i'd do to phoenix wright is if you manage to collect all evidence, land the objection then land his level 3 you win the match immediately (so it'd be an alternate win condition)


i still think he'd be bad...but at least it'd be a good payoff to go through all the trouble required to get him what he needs...

oh change franks theme from adam the clown remix to a remix of franks theme from DR 1

I can dream can't I I mean it makes more sense any way its the theme for you not the theme for the person fighting you and it is franks actual theme

another thing I know will not be done but want to suggest

fix Dantes and Franks heads Dante hair is off just a bit compared to DMC3s hair and frank looks nothing like DR 1 or DR OTR frank or even a combination of the two and it really should be fixed

I know these things will not be changed but I just thought about them and decided to request them

I think Wolverine needs Divekick cancelling into Drill Claw or Fatal Claw for just safety because people may know how to counter it with chicken block or right timing, I know he's gonna be nerf, but it's my suggestion for Wolverine's buff.

Dark Harmonizer assist has more recovery.

Oroboros is a level 1, but only lasts 5 seconds.

-Spiral Swords is a LVL3 super now.

- Lower Wolverine's HP to 600K-700K(Main reason he should be damn near Phoenix level with his insane rushdown game, so making him the ultimate Glass Cannon makes sense)

 

["God's Beard!"]

You have no idea how much I love alternate win conditions.

Remember Karst, those people did better than us at EVO.

 

[Dahbomb]

I kinda agree with PW and Dark Harmonizer changes... lOL

 

[DeadPhoenix9065]

Spiral Swords is a LVL3 super now.

Would it be fair to have it for longer too then? Or would it be broken?

 

[GuardianE]

fix Dantes and Franks heads Dante hair is off just a bit compared to DMC3s hair and frank looks nothing like DR 1 or DR OTR frank or even a combination of the two and it really should be fixed

I know it's only half serious, Dante's hair is from DMC1/4, while his costume is from DMC3. Trish's hair is from DMC1, while her costume is from DMC4. I think the character modeller just mixed and matched the versions that he/she liked.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I know it's only half serious, Dante's hair is from DMC1, while his costume is from DMC3. Trish's hair is from DMC1, while her costume is from DMC4. I think the character modeller just mixed and matched the versions that he/she liked.

They're from the time period between 3 and 1. That's why Dante is in the process of forgetting some of his moves.

 

[Karsticles]

Deadpool log:

Deadpool:
*4th Wall Crisis is now 5+0 on startup; 1 bar; damage reduced to 220,000; throw scaling on follow-up.
*Happy-Happy Trigger damage increased slightly.
*Ninja Gift (all versions) no longer leaves Deadpool prone until landing.
*Teleport Malfunction now causes a soft knockdown.
*Taunt Bubble stays out for full animation when canceled.
*Quick Work into Chimichanga is now easier to perform.
*Katana-rama! hitstun significantly increased; now -3 on block.
*j.L changed to +10/9 on hit/block.

Care to explain why? Currently theres no GTFOff me assists in the game. I think this has contributed to the games dumbness.

Haggar and Tron were bad in Vanilla because

1)haggar had years of invincibility and hard knockdown
2) tron was nearly unpunishable and led to combos.

I think AA assists could be back if they

A) didn't allow full combos (make them knock up and recover fast)
B) kept the vulnerable taunt animation.

GTFO me assists just fuck over slow/less mobile characters.

There is no change on Viper's FA I just noticed.

Just copy paste what Azure J said. Aerial FA hit causes a simple strike you can recover out of and ground hit is the same which causes a crumple. I cannot let a Viper changelog get through without a FA nerf.

I still don't get the point of this assist, and I can't put something in if I don't understand it. She still gets the full combos, right? It just makes it a little harder?

 

[GuardianE]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72409091]They're from the time period between 3 and 1.[/QUOTE]

But Dante didn't know Trish between 1 and 3. Trish technically didn't even exist. And that doesn't explain how Trish has her outfit from DMC4, which takes place 10 years later.

EDIT: Actually I would buy the argument that Dante is between DMC3 and DMC1, but Trish is from the time period between DMC1 and DMC4.

 

[Dahbomb]

Would it be fair to have it for longer too then? Or would it be broken?

Spiral Swords is going to be a LVL2. LVL3 is too extreme since it doesn't last that long for it. Even at LVL2 some LVL1s can beat it.

It would only fly as a LVL3 if SS was increased in duration and damage plus you activate the extra foemations at any time even at the end of SS for max sword duration for free. However I don't want SS to be a LVL3, LVL2 is fine for current SS plus you want to ENCOURAGE people to use Blistering Swords.

The point of the FA change is that you don't get unblockabled on in coming or during resets. Most of the time Viper hits you when you are in the air blocking some assist so now she has to set it up properly on a grounded opponent. On the ground you have more options to avoid. You still get full combo if the FA lands on grounded opponent but not on an aerial opponent.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I hope in MVC4 Deapool changes into Cable every third teleport.

But Dante didn't know Trish between 1 and 3. Trish technically didn't even exist. And that doesn't explain how Trish has her outfit from DMC4, which takes place 10 years later.

Something something bangle of time

 

[Karsticles]

I kinda agree with PW and Dark Harmonizer changes... lOL

-_- I'm not letting anyone touch Dark Harmonizer. That's a sword I will fall on.

Would it be fair to have it for longer too then? Or would it be broken?

I don't think making it longer would matter except for making the game more boring and one-sided.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I think instead of stat boosts, X-factor can save one of your characters before the next one comes in. But they still get the glowing highlight, and the characters say something cool when they come back.

Spoiler

"Devil never die!"

This way it's more like Dragon Ball Z.

 

[Dahbomb]

Is there even a legit Jill player here to comment on her changes?

Also she still gets shit assists. And she still can't get a combo after a throw. Although Mad Beast at LVL1 might unlock some crazy shenanigans for her.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Is there even a legit Jill player here to comment on her changes?

Also she still gets shit assists. And she still can't get a combo after a throw. Although Mad Beast at LVL1 might unlock some crazy shenanigans for her.

I played her in vanilla. Neutral tech on her OTG is gonna be boss.

 

[DeadPhoenix9065]

Spiral Swords is going to be a LVL2. LVL3 is too extreme since it doesn't last that long for it. Even at LVL2 some LVL1s can beat it.

It would only fly as a LVL3 if SS was increased in duration and damage plus you activate the extra foemations at any time even at the end of SS for max sword duration for free. However I don't want SS to be a LVL3, LVL2 is fine for current SS plus you want to ENCOURAGE people to use Blistering Swords.

Lvl 2 hyper just sounds weird though...

Haha, just Cloud!


-_- I'm not letting anyone touch Dark Harmonizer. That's a sword I will fall on.


I don't think making it longer would matter except for making the game more boring and one-sided.

Didn't think of that but it's the same with Strider too isn't it?


What about this
SS - Lvl 1 hyper
you get 3 swords instead of the 5 or 6? They can't act as a block string in themselves, vergil would have to attack to keep the pressure
But if you do the hyper again you get more swords so they can block sting alone
rest the timer
In return, you can get a new sword form for free if you have a full set of SS
new sword form can still be used in the 3 SS but cost a meter

 

["God's Beard!"]

Whoa whoa, what's going on with Nemesis' assists? Where's his armored moves?

 

[Dahbomb]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72412196]I played her in vanilla. Neutral tech on her OTG is gonna be boss.[/QUOTE]
That's probably the best change I like on her. I guess having your throws lead to potential unblockable set ups is about all you can do for the character without adding/reworking new moves to get her a combo off throws.

Trying to nerf SS and Vergil to the point where lvl1 SS is fair is too much hassle. You have to lower the durability of SS, tinker with the start up and recovery, decrease its hit but more importantly you have to change stuff like soft knockdown on cr.H, Round Trip damage, Lunar Phase damage and his special move damage scaling. I have thought about this for over a year and I just realized that its easier to make it a LVL2. Its easier to take the extra cost over having to nerf Vergil's point game just to make SS not godlike.

 

[GuardianE]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72409431]Something something bangle of time[/QUOTE]

Actually, I take it back. It's pretty close to her DMC2 rendition, which is what she's based on anyway.

 

[Karsticles]

Is there even a legit Jill player here to comment on her changes?

Also she still gets shit assists. And she still can't get a combo after a throw. Although Mad Beast at LVL1 might unlock some crazy shenanigans for her.

I've watched a lot of Jill play, haha.

Her assists are better now:
1) Reversal (full combos on crossover counter).
2) Arrow Kick (wasn't there before; a solid assist that causes a wall bounce on hit).
3) An overhead (plenty of teams like these).

It's not Plasma Beam, but unfortunately, some characters don't have a lot to work with. If we allows command grabs, she would be better off, but it's best not to, as we all agreed.

Lvl 2 hyper just sounds weird though...

Didn't think of that but it's the same with Strider too isn't it?


What about this
SS - Lvl 1 hyper
you get 3 swords instead of the 5 or 6? They can't act as a block string in themselves, vergil would have to attack to keep the pressure
But if you do the hyper again you get more swords so they can block sting alone
rest the timer
In return, you can get a new sword form for free if you have a full set of SS
new sword form can still be used in the 3 SS but cost a meter

Spiral Swords is based off of the source material. You can't just change it like that.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72412541]Whoa whoa, what's going on with Nemesis' assists? Where's his armored moves?[/QUOTE]
Tell me specifically which lines should be changed, and what they should be changed to. I hate guessing what you are talking about:

Nemesis:
*Fatal Mutation now has full invincibility and grabs in a 360 degree circle; places opponent in a crumple state; startup time reduced to 10 frames.
*Both Bioweapon Assault and Biohazard Rush recover sooner, allowing Nemesis to combo off of the non-forced ground bounce they cause.
*Biohazard Rush now has hyper armor on frame 1 until recovery; startup reduced to 8+1; vertical hitbox increased.
*Bioweapon Assault now better at predicting where rockets should fire.
*c.H super armor changed to frames 8-27.
*s.H super armor changed to frames 7-24.
*Launcher Slam L is now +2 on block.
*Minimum damage scaling for hypers changed to 60%.
*qcb.S now fires a downward-angled rocket that hits the corner at full screen.
*Clothesline Rocket L: 26 frame start up, 0 on block(no rocket, soft knockdown); previous L and M versions moved to M and H, respectively.
*c.L now chains to s.L.

Assists: Clothesline Rocket M, Deadly Reach, qcb.S

 

["God's Beard!"]

She already has Arrow Kick assist!

I hate guessing what you are talking about:


Assists: Clothesline Rocket M, Deadly Reach, qcb.S

He used to have an armored move in there! Clothesline Rocket M is just a burly tackle!

 

[Azn_Boy]

Nemesis' legs has no hitbox, please fix that. A lot of combos don't work on Nemesis because of that.

 

[Dahbomb]

She didn't have Arrow kick as an assist? WTF...

 

[DeadPhoenix9065]

But Dante didn't know Trish between 1 and 3. Trish technically didn't even exist. And that doesn't explain how Trish has her outfit from DMC4, which takes place 10 years later.

EDIT: Actually I would buy the argument that Dante is between DMC3 and DMC1, but Trish is from the time period between DMC1 and DMC4.

Her costume in here is the one from DMC2 when you unlock her. The difference between the three costumes from 1,2 and 4 is that in 4 she has an updated version of 1 and 2 with her hair being different a bit too.
In 2 the difference is she has an extra arm band and having the Sparda. In the 1, she only has one arm band. same as she does in 4.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Nemesis' legs has no hitbox, please fix that. A lot of combos don't work on Nemesis because of that.

He's a zombie, he can't feel his legs.

She didn't have Arrow kick as an assist? WTF...

She does.

 

[Karsticles]

She didn't have Arrow kick as an assist? WTF...

Oh wait, she did. I just made it better.

 

[GuardianE]

So, I wanted to suggest the following addition to Dante:
+ Airthrow hard knockdown state lengthened for solo conversions

I'm guessing there was a 10 change per character rule imposed? I don't know if we're really willing to replace anything that's currently listed, but I know that both Frantic and AzureJ are okay with this buff.

Thoughts?