"God's Beard!"
Member
Trick near walls? Does Hawkeye just start rolling in the air or what. Don't like it.
:3
:3
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
"God's Beard!"
Member
I'll trade glasses for 1.1 million health.
Karsticles
Member
I'm fine with him getting the speed boost, I'm not fine with him getting it for free. I said I'm fine with leaving the glasses mechanic as it is, or even removing the damage boost. I've said multiple times that I think it's fine as-is.
GB doesn't seem to care much either way, and Zissou isn't here. Also, you need a vote to change something, not to leave it as-is. Status quo triumphs in these matters, which is why Shuma-Gorath does not have an 8 way air dash right now. GB wouldn't back it, so it doesn't happen.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Wall bounce is a hundred times better than being able to block during trick maneuver lol
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
taunt? taunt? anyone?
"God's Beard!"
Member
Why would anyone not taunt given the chance? You're asking for a no-cost install hyper.
Karsticles
Member
LOL, we don't take votes on a quorum. And the rule has always been consensus or nothing. Again, that's why Shuma-Gorath doesn't have an 8 way air dash right now. These were the rules when we started, and they aren't changing.
I'm open to it.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72706711]Why would anyone not taunt given the chance? You're asking for a no-cost install hyper.[/QUOTE]
It's not safe?
Personally, I wish the glasses worked the way S-Kill described them. I could sign on for that.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Fine, no glasses mechanic but Wesker gets 100k extra health instead and he can taunt to take his glasses off for funsies. All are in agreement.
No offense to Zissou but he has been absent from committee duty for half of the roster. I think we need new committee members because it's really just 3 people deciding on stuff.
Concensus rule sucks, it should be majority. Otherwise nothing would get changed. I want that IM dash restriction fixed asap. Shuma Gorath didn't pass because neither Gods nor myself liked it.
Concensus rule sucks, it should be majority. Otherwise nothing would get changed. I want that IM dash restriction fixed asap. Shuma Gorath didn't pass because neither Gods nor myself liked it.
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72706711]Why would anyone not taunt given the chance? You're asking for a no-cost install hyper.[/QUOTE]
He already gets it at no cost.
How many frames does taunt take? like 40?
He already gets it at no cost.
How many frames does taunt take? like 40?
That Dude John
Member
I don't suppose anyone would care to play marvel atm?
Karsticles
Member
@John: Ask earlier in the day and we'll play. GB might want to, though.
He has good judgment so far, though. We're not finalizing anything right now anyway. The real committee role is when we take votes on everything. This is all basically our rough draft. Once we finish going through everyone, we'll take one last look at each character and finalize them.
If you didn't like the rules, you should have spoken up a long time ago. Majority rule is bad when you have a small group like this. You never made a case for why lowering IM's dash height slightly was a big deal; yeah, his high/lows get a little better. I'm okay with that. His mix-ups aren't good outside of that, he's not Magneto with tridash j.L into c.L. And you approved of the Shuma-Gorath changes before GB came along.
Ok.
*Takes a deep breath*
Put a "Glasses mechanic?" in the changelog and we will come back to it after it's all done. Until then we need one more committee member assigned, preferably one who has been participating. That way we can have 5 people.
I don't think the concensus rule should apply because nothing would get passed or changed aside from the super obvious stuff. Someone can just troll for no change or be affected by bias. If a change is voted at 4/5 it gets passed IMO.
On the note of IM, first of all you made the change on it first so it was on you to explain why he needed it. I didn't hear a single good reason and I provided many myself. Under your own rules no way should that have made the list because I was 100% opposed to it. Rule of concensus and status quo states that IM's dash restriction remains unchanged. If you don't follow your own rules then you are abusing your power as record keeper.
*Takes a deep breath*
Put a "Glasses mechanic?" in the changelog and we will come back to it after it's all done. Until then we need one more committee member assigned, preferably one who has been participating. That way we can have 5 people.
I don't think the concensus rule should apply because nothing would get passed or changed aside from the super obvious stuff. Someone can just troll for no change or be affected by bias. If a change is voted at 4/5 it gets passed IMO.
On the note of IM, first of all you made the change on it first so it was on you to explain why he needed it. I didn't hear a single good reason and I provided many myself. Under your own rules no way should that have made the list because I was 100% opposed to it. Rule of concensus and status quo states that IM's dash restriction remains unchanged. If you don't follow your own rules then you are abusing your power as record keeper.
Karsticles
Member
Also, if we did have a vote, you would not win right now, since GB is fine with removing the mechanic entirely and not having a speed buff.
I'll put the Glasses Mechanic note in the changelog and we will come back to it.
And I'd agree to 4/5 votes passing something, but no one but us 4 volunteered to be on the committee. There were a few I hoped would but did not. /shrug
Karsticles
Member
I said if we had a vote. No vote was taken.
Committee members volunteer; I can't force the role on someone. Feel free to recruit someone who is knowledgable and respectable. I wish we could get Viscant in here...
Frantic I choose you! Should you dare to accept.
Or GuardianE. Frantic is already the frame data keeper.
Also back on topic the Hawkeye and Arthur changes are all acceptable to me. For Hawkeye I think people really want a more reliable Gimlet. Getter tracking/active frames or something.
I will comment on Hulk tomorrow. I have one change in mind that would benefit him, beyond that I don't have much.
Or GuardianE. Frantic is already the frame data keeper.
Also back on topic the Hawkeye and Arthur changes are all acceptable to me. For Hawkeye I think people really want a more reliable Gimlet. Getter tracking/active frames or something.
I will comment on Hulk tomorrow. I have one change in mind that would benefit him, beyond that I don't have much.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I thought I was the keeper of frame data :-(
Professor Beef
Banned
As an outsider (who just got home from work), Wesker's glasses mechanic is dumb. Just adjust his damage and XF values instead of giving him a dumb, nonsensical buff.
Karsticles
Member
I agree that the glasses mechanic is dumb, but Dahbomb is saying that we should get rid of it and apply the speed boost he gets from taking his glasses off to Wesker normally. That's what I don't agree with.
Haha, I can do it I suppose. Only reason I didn't apply is because I like these change lists out of fun. I don't want to put all that much thought into them and come to a conclusion on what is the best change and all that. I'm lazy.
That and I troll a lot with dumb changes.
I nominate Frantic as our 5th committee member. Your first task is to give one extra Hulk suggestion.
XF and buffs don't stack multiplicatively anymore.
It was suggested that he just gets a permanent 10% speed boost, no damage boost and no glasses mechanic. He gets better, more reliable combos but his LVL1 will do worse damage as there is no buff at all to damage.
Other changes were suggested too like taunt giving him boost
The speed boost caused a lot of controversy as did the removal of the mechanic
We deferred the discussion on this until a later date when all committee
members are present
XF values are already reduced.
XF and buffs don't stack multiplicatively anymore.
It was suggested that he just gets a permanent 10% speed boost, no damage boost and no glasses mechanic. He gets better, more reliable combos but his LVL1 will do worse damage as there is no buff at all to damage.
Other changes were suggested too like taunt giving him boost
The speed boost caused a lot of controversy as did the removal of the mechanic
We deferred the discussion on this until a later date when all committee
members are present
Karsticles
Member
Have you not read GB's Shuma-Gorath suggestions?
Frantic makes 5, then, and 4/5 passes a vote.
I will PM you about the Wesker glasses mechanic...
Sorry for being absent so much lately. I knew I'd be busy with real life stuff for this past week, and part of why I didn't think it would hinder me much from contributing to the discussion was the originally proposed pace (3 characters/wk) would've meant I would only miss a small fraction of the individual character changes. With the pace having been substantially accelerated, I ended up missing a lot more than I originally believed I would. Please give me a bit to get caught up!
That Dude John
Member
Vergil, plz ;_;
Karsticles
Member
Three new Hulk changes:
Hulk:
*Ground dash now attack and crouch cancelable.
*Minimum damage scaling on normal and special attacks reduced to 20%.
*Gamma Quake is now throw invincible.
*f.M gains hyper armor from frames 16-51 when charged (or unblockable?)
*Hulks ground throw now recovers with enough time to OTG with Gamma Wave L or call an OTG assist.
*Gamma Tornado (all versions) hitbox significantly increased.
Assists: Gamma Wave H, Gamma Charge H (AA), Gamma Charge H
Hulk:
*Ground dash now attack and crouch cancelable.
*Minimum damage scaling on normal and special attacks reduced to 20%.
*Gamma Quake is now throw invincible.
*f.M gains hyper armor from frames 16-51 when charged (or unblockable?)
*Hulks ground throw now recovers with enough time to OTG with Gamma Wave L or call an OTG assist.
*Gamma Tornado (all versions) hitbox significantly increased.
Assists: Gamma Wave H, Gamma Charge H (AA), Gamma Charge H
No worries. I don't think Dahbomb is actually upset with you, I think he's just bitter about the Wesker discussion.
We are voting on 3 things actually.
1) Glasses or not
2) Speed boost or not
3) If no to both then compensation or not
BTW I vote against more health on Wesker. I was essentially joking on making Wesker like Vanilla. His health is a separate issue entirely from this, first we need to get a vote going on the first two matters.
And I am not upset with anyone. lol
NO FUCKING WAY TO UNBLOCKABLE ON HULK
Hulk being able to get ANYTHING off of his ground throw makes him the best opening gambit character in the game with Hulk Lariat. Being able to take a ground throw really mitigated the opening 5 seconds because you could just take it but now if you take it you will die.
The better change would be to buff his command throws so that they don't throw as far. Allow Hulk to get in close enough to charge up a Gamma Wave + call an assist. Freeing up an OTG slot for command throw conversions really would help him achieve optimized teams and not have to rely on Rocket Punch assist.
And my votes:
1) No glasses mechanic (ie no getting damage boost at all under any circumstance)
2) Permanent speed boost 10%
1) Glasses or not
2) Speed boost or not
3) If no to both then compensation or not
BTW I vote against more health on Wesker. I was essentially joking on making Wesker like Vanilla. His health is a separate issue entirely from this, first we need to get a vote going on the first two matters.
And I am not upset with anyone. lol
NO FUCKING WAY TO UNBLOCKABLE ON HULK
Hulk being able to get ANYTHING off of his ground throw makes him the best opening gambit character in the game with Hulk Lariat. Being able to take a ground throw really mitigated the opening 5 seconds because you could just take it but now if you take it you will die.
The better change would be to buff his command throws so that they don't throw as far. Allow Hulk to get in close enough to charge up a Gamma Wave + call an assist. Freeing up an OTG slot for command throw conversions really would help him achieve optimized teams and not have to rely on Rocket Punch assist.
And my votes:
1) No glasses mechanic (ie no getting damage boost at all under any circumstance)
2) Permanent speed boost 10%
Karsticles
Member
Let Zissou and Frantic sleep on the glasses stuff. There are a lot of posts for them to read and think about.
And I think the vote is more:
1) Keep glasses as-is.
2) Keep glasses mechanic, but only offer speed buff.
3) Remove glasses mechanic, no other changes.
4) Remove glasses mechanic, apply speed buff passively.
And Hulk is already the best opening gambit character in the game. Remember that throw techs are easier and separate characters now. So Hulk can't just mash s.H for the first 5 seconds, get 3 techs, and then land a s.H because people are slightly out of range. I'll take out the unblockable suggestion - it was just an idea!
No one actually wants the 2nd option though. If the Glasses mechanic stays it has to be the whole package.
So it's 3 options really:
1) Keep glasses as-is.
2) Remove glasses mechanic, no other changes.
3) Remove glasses mechanic, apply speed buff passively.
And I vote #3 obviously.
So it's 3 options really:
1) Keep glasses as-is.
2) Remove glasses mechanic, no other changes.
3) Remove glasses mechanic, apply speed buff passively.
And I vote #3 obviously.
biosnake20
Member
I'm definitely for no glasses mechanic option. Keep it just as a cosmetic change.
Professor Beef
Banned
I don't think Gamma Quake needs to be throw-invincible; just make it come out faster.
Karsticles
Member
No, there's a fourth option because I'm willing to keep the glasses mechanic but remove the damage buff portion of it.
I thought about this, but it might mess up some team setups. For example, Gamma Quake can set up Firebrand unblockables.
Maybe Gamma Quake should just have Hulk recover quickly? Pushblocking the rocks wouldn't pushblock Hulk. I like this idea!
I think the vote is reserved for committee members, but for what it's worth:
Karst, you keep insisting that speedboosting Wesker is a buff in these changes, but I don't think that's 100% accurate. As it stands currently in Ultimate, Wesker will already have the speed AND damage buff as long as he gets one combo or takes enough damage. The main purpose of doing Phantom Dance is to do damage as a combo ender. The removal of his glasses is a benefit, but that's not really the reason for the meter expenditure except in certain circumstances (Unknown's random opener or to kill an opponent early in a combo). And once the glasses come off, they stay off until tagout... a passive attribute that persists. You can argue that the tagout = less time in "no glasses" mode, but I could similarly argue that having the "no glasses" mode also tied to damage taken balances this out.
This all means that Ultimate Wesker has the speed and damage buff on for roughly half the time he's played, and it's really for free, whether it's because he takes damage (which will happen it he's losing no matter what) or via Phantom Dance. If Ultimate Wesker has the speed and damage buff for roughly half the time he's played anyway, I think that the removal of the damage buff is a fair tradeoff for having the speed buff 100% of the time, and a fair way of eliminating the shades mechanic entirely without sacrificing variety within the character. You're nerfing him and buffing him at the same time.
So, obviously, I think you guys should consider Option 3.
Karsticles
Member
I would vote for it. Wesker is getting a huge number of buffs to everything he has. He is more able to open people up more now than ever. I'd support removing the damage buff but keeping the rest the same.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Haha.
Man I haven't checked this thread in several hours but I can't believe there's this much dispute over the glasses mechanic.
Wish I wasn't working so much so I could comment more, but I just saw the refresh on armor for Arthur.......fuck that. Anchor Arthur is already scary.....5 bars and he can refresh.....God damn.
I thought you said the mechanic was dumb?
Oh well no point in discussing this anymore... it's being put to the vote. It will be decided soon enough. I can now concentrate on the other changes. How about that Hulk change I made? Would really open up team compositions for the character.
Oh well no point in discussing this anymore... it's being put to the vote. It will be decided soon enough. I can now concentrate on the other changes. How about that Hulk change I made? Would really open up team compositions for the character.
The only buffs he received made his moves work like how they should have from the beginning. His counter game is currently broken. His happy birthday conversion leaves him in a vulnerable situation. Those were fixes.
Remove him from the game!
oh wait
Hell man, I don't know jack shit about Hulk other than I don't like fighting him much... the changes on the list seem pretty okay to me. Maybe make his retreat option after a Gamma Charge a little safer/move him further away? I dunno... THIS IS WHY I DIDN'T WANT ON THE COMMITTEE, TOO MUCH PRESSURE MAN!
On the subject of Wesker, how about going for a silly Frank style 'level up' for Wesker? If Phantom Dance is used after a set amount of hits in a combo, you get the bonus(be it the 'half glasses' bonus or the 'no glasses' bonus depending on the amount of hits). Removes the 'let me just Phantom Dance at the start of the round', but keeps the mechanic intact. It also allows for 'do I want to reset and lead to potentially more damage, or lose a tricky setup for additional speed/damage on my next hit?' Just a thought.
Karsticles
Member
The mechanic is dumb, but I'm generally disinclined to remove entire mechanics from characters without extremely good reason. It's dumb, but it's not Gold Armor hard knockdown dumb, if you know what I mean.
I like your Hulk suggestion. Adding it in.
Buffs are buffs.
This still doesn't fix the main problem which is that starting out you do not have access to optimal combos because you lack that 10% speed. So there is less incentive to practice these combos and you are then forced to concentrate more on the "safe" and day 1 combos. This also punishes Wesker + Phoenix teams still.
Professor Beef
Banned
That's just making it more convoluted than it needs to be.
Karsticles
Member
Poor Frantic. Why not just make the mechanic work like S-Kill thought it would?
1) Start with glasses on.
2) Glasses break after so much damage; buff.
3) Phantom Dance puts the glasses back on.
That really emphasizes him as a reset character.
Hulk:
*Ground dash now attack and crouch cancelable.
*Minimum damage scaling on normal and special attacks reduced to 20%.
*f.M gains hyper armor from frames 16-51 when charged.
*Gamma Tornado (all versions) hitbox significantly increased; throws the opponent less far away, allowing for a Gamma Wave L + assist extension as with air throws.
*Gamma Quake startup changed to 6+9; recovery changed to 0; Hulk is now free to move after pounding the ground.
Assists: Gamma Wave H, Gamma Charge H (AA), Gamma Charge H
1) Start with glasses on.
2) Glasses break after so much damage; buff.
3) Phantom Dance puts the glasses back on.
That really emphasizes him as a reset character.
Hulk:
*Ground dash now attack and crouch cancelable.
*Minimum damage scaling on normal and special attacks reduced to 20%.
*f.M gains hyper armor from frames 16-51 when charged.
*Gamma Tornado (all versions) hitbox significantly increased; throws the opponent less far away, allowing for a Gamma Wave L + assist extension as with air throws.
*Gamma Quake startup changed to 6+9; recovery changed to 0; Hulk is now free to move after pounding the ground.
Assists: Gamma Wave H, Gamma Charge H (AA), Gamma Charge H
What, what? Wouldn't that lead to potentially unblockable resets with every Gamma Quake for Fooblat's team?
Karsticles
Member
What would be unblockable? Rocket Punch L doesn't hit low, FYI. And you can chicken block and pushblock the rocks so you don't land.
Gamma Quake, tagout, Overhead+Wesker assist.
EDIT: I guess they can chicken guard it? I'm not sure how the timing is on the rocks and if it can lock you into a standing state.
Hulk locks down opponent in corner with Gamma Quake, calls Wesker Low assist, j.S or whatever. That's Fooblat's team.