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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
I don't see how a Hard Knockdown after Gold Armor explosion is even debatable. There's no way Arthur players should be inevitably punished like that, and the ability to refresh Gold Armor does not change that. Hard knockdown in this game is a death sentence. You've already adjusted Deadpool's teleport to a soft knockdown. You've also changed Frank West's boost so that it won't leave him in a vulnerable state if he gets a hit.
If Gold Armor is too strong with the refreshing and soft knockdown, then make its duration shorter to balance it out.
And number 3 above is a straight up arbitrary nerf. I don't see the point of it given the lack of other changes to the glasses mechanic. The removal of glasses upon actually connecting Phantom Dance is fine, but it doesn't really deal with my issues concerning the mechanic is a whole.
Now you are just straight up nerfing the character, not really trying to come up with an optimal solution.
So if Wesker uses Phantom Dance, doesn't get it to connect he has to first taunt to get his glasses back then use Phantom Dance to get the buff?
How the hell is this helping out Wesker/Phoenix play? If anything you have now made it more complicated to get the buffs.
So if Wesker uses Phantom Dance, doesn't get it to connect he has to first taunt to get his glasses back then use Phantom Dance to get the buff?
How the hell is this helping out Wesker/Phoenix play? If anything you have now made it more complicated to get the buffs.
Karsticles
Member
I just thought it was a neat idea; I'm not attached to it. I'm fine with just Zissou's original suggestion plus him getting the buff after he takes damage.
All I mean about Arthur's hard knockdown is that maybe we should look into removing the timer altogether and making it break on damage; then it wouldn't be a big deal if it were a hard knockdown.
That's an interesting idea. I'm just puzzled by your attachment to the hard knockdown state. It's poorly designed. He already gets penalized through an opponent's free punish/approach and by being in boxers state.
Karsticles
Member
I'm not attached to the hard knockdown state, but my thought is that we could really do this three ways:
1) Just change the hard knockdown to a soft knockdown (IMO, uninteresting and still poorly designed).
2) Let armor refresh his armor (could be a hard or soft knockdown in tandem with this).
3) Make the armor break on significant (~30% life) damage (could remain a hard knockdown so something like Shinku Hadoken -> Chaotic Flame leads to a hard knockdown for another Purification x Chaotic Flame for a punishment to balance out the armor potentially lasting the entire match).
I like 3 the best with a hard knockdown, personally.
Wow you guys WANT the hard knockdown to stay...
Terrible. We removed the hard knockdown on Deadpool why not Arthur?
If Arthur is such a beast anchor snap him in. Or better yet save your XF until after he activates his.
I have 0 problems with him having no hard knockdown and armor refresh. Character is ass he needs that shit.
Terrible. We removed the hard knockdown on Deadpool why not Arthur?
If Arthur is such a beast anchor snap him in. Or better yet save your XF until after he activates his.
I have 0 problems with him having no hard knockdown and armor refresh. Character is ass he needs that shit.
Karsticles
Member
You did not read my post right...
And I'm not even thinking about his anchor abilities, just about making the character fit his source material. Arthur has never lost the armor on a timer, he loses it when he gets hit.
I am looking at the options and I am for #2 with soft knockdown. People are crazy for thinking Arthur is going to get too good with the changes.
Source material is what prevented Arthur from gaining a proper dash and got him a hard knockdown state plus underpants Arthur.
Karsticles
Member
IDK, the best Arthur player I know things #2 is too good.
And source material did not lead to this problem. Arthur never loses armor on a timer, and he definitely never loses two sets of armor. AFAIK.
He think it's too good for point Arthur or too good for anchor Arthur?
If he thinks it makes him a beast anchor then people will start snapping him like they should. I need to see more reasoning as to why he would be too good on point.
I mean oustide of XF I am not seeing the issue. He gets to keep using Gold armor to stay in a powered state but if he starts blocking too much he starts losing on the meter gain and gets put in under pants mode if he doesn't tag out.
I need more reasoning on this. I don't think a character should be punished this badly for using a utility hyper. Is he worried people will just use Arthur Morrigan Missiles and just cheese you out?
Edit: If people are still totally against this because of broken Arthur.. then make refresh Gold Armor cost 2 bars.
If he thinks it makes him a beast anchor then people will start snapping him like they should. I need to see more reasoning as to why he would be too good on point.
I mean oustide of XF I am not seeing the issue. He gets to keep using Gold armor to stay in a powered state but if he starts blocking too much he starts losing on the meter gain and gets put in under pants mode if he doesn't tag out.
I need more reasoning on this. I don't think a character should be punished this badly for using a utility hyper. Is he worried people will just use Arthur Morrigan Missiles and just cheese you out?
Edit: If people are still totally against this because of broken Arthur.. then make refresh Gold Armor cost 2 bars.
Karsticles
Member
He plays point Arthur, so likely that.
Blocking makes you gain meter.
I'll wait to hear from Al_Rikir before I argue for any one perspective, since he's probably the best Arthur out there.
"God's Beard!"
Member
The only combo that will change is that you will get trap shot loops without assists or a throw. So maybe an extra 50k on combos that weren't even optimized before and no difference in his better combos. At best. And there would be no infinites, trap shot is techable. I removed OTG because Hawkeye is already a good character and doesn't deserve to be a much better zoner and get lazy combos. But I also had better midscreen coverage with balalaika then.
Ice arrow is universally worse. It's slower, less reliable when it does hit it uses up a ground bounce that otherwise could have been used after a DHC.
Karsticles
Member
It's pretty hard to not get a meter in 1200 frames. People complain about Morrigan gaining meter, and Astral Vision only lasts half as long and isn't as good at hitting people.
"God's Beard!"
Member
And before anyone starts complaining about Hawkeye's little x-factor 3 loops going away:
3H xx Poison Shot L XFC jS, H xx Trap Shot, H xx Trap Shot, H xx Trap Shot, H xx Trap Shot, 3HS, jMMHS, Ice Arrow, jMHS, Poison Shot
There, 1,150,000 damage with no hypers or 6M, starts on a hit confirm into x-factor and I literally made up that combo since my last post so it's not even optimized or difficult. Hawkeye is one of those characters where if people spent time to learn his combos they'd realize how dumb his combo damage is for a pure zoning character.
3H xx Poison Shot L XFC jS, H xx Trap Shot, H xx Trap Shot, H xx Trap Shot, H xx Trap Shot, 3HS, jMMHS, Ice Arrow, jMHS, Poison Shot
There, 1,150,000 damage with no hypers or 6M, starts on a hit confirm into x-factor and I literally made up that combo since my last post so it's not even optimized or difficult. Hawkeye is one of those characters where if people spent time to learn his combos they'd realize how dumb his combo damage is for a pure zoning character.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Added one(Ice Breaker M didn't bounce before for some reason) and returned his assists. Also got rid of the hunter shot change. You really don't want that to be untechable. Split the trick thing because air ok by walls didn't really make sense. I think that's good now, we can probably lock Hawkeye.
I changed my mind on the balalaika shift after experimenting with x-factoring 6M. I don't think there's a good way to do it without giving him some really dumb halfscreen blockstrings. Kinda close as it is.
"God's Beard!"
Member
It makes more sense when you realize that it's the outside edge of his standing M and slide.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72782161]
Hawkeye:
*Gimlet hitstun increased; it is now always safe on hit.
*Trick Shot (Violent Fuzz) assist startup time reduced to 37 frames.
*f.M special cancelable; no longer hits OTG.
*Hawkeye now has enough time to OTG opponents after Tag Team Special.
*c.M now always connects after c.L.
*Ragtime Shot (Jack Rose) can now be influenced in its trajectory by holding forward or back after firing it; c.H arrows detonate the bomb early.
*Hawkeye can now wall jump
*j.S is now hyper cancelable.
*Hawkeye may block during active frames of Trick.
*Ice Breaker M now fixed to cause groundbounce on airborne opponents
Assists: Quick Shot (Greyhound), Trick Shot (Violet Fuzz), Ragtime Shot (Kamikaze)
[/QUOTE]
Looks good. I didn't even realize that ice breaker M doesn't cause a ground bounce on airborne opponents, good change.
I still don't know why we're changing f.M at all.
It doesn't need to be special cancellable and is fine as is currently. It seems like a change being made just for the sake of making a change.
Where's A Pretty Panda? I'd like to hear what he thinks about these Hawkeye changes.
Hawkeye:
*Gimlet hitstun increased; it is now always safe on hit.
*Trick Shot (Violent Fuzz) assist startup time reduced to 37 frames.
*f.M special cancelable; no longer hits OTG.
*Hawkeye now has enough time to OTG opponents after Tag Team Special.
*c.M now always connects after c.L.
*Ragtime Shot (Jack Rose) can now be influenced in its trajectory by holding forward or back after firing it; c.H arrows detonate the bomb early.
*Hawkeye can now wall jump
*j.S is now hyper cancelable.
*Hawkeye may block during active frames of Trick.
*Ice Breaker M now fixed to cause groundbounce on airborne opponents
Assists: Quick Shot (Greyhound), Trick Shot (Violet Fuzz), Ragtime Shot (Kamikaze)
[/QUOTE]
Looks good. I didn't even realize that ice breaker M doesn't cause a ground bounce on airborne opponents, good change.
I still don't know why we're changing f.M at all.
It doesn't need to be special cancellable and is fine as is currently. It seems like a change being made just for the sake of making a change.
Where's A Pretty Panda? I'd like to hear what he thinks about these Hawkeye changes.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Because it's better than standing H at the ranges it hits, and I use standing H more than any other move with Hawkeye. And now you can combo after it on standing opponents.
I'll tell you a secret because you seem sad about it.
6M xx Poison Shot OTG
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72784621]Because it's better than standing H at the ranges it hits, and I use standing H more than any other move with Hawkeye. And now you can combo after it on standing opponents.[/QUOTE]
Seems like a change specifically tailored to how you play Hawkeye. I'm not really sure if it is a necessary change.
How does everyone else feel about the f.M change? I know we have more people who play Hawkeye here.
Seems like a change specifically tailored to how you play Hawkeye. I'm not really sure if it is a necessary change.
How does everyone else feel about the f.M change? I know we have more people who play Hawkeye here.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Why are you fighting this? There's no way this is a nerf.
This should be you right now:
Karsticles
Member
Here are Al_Rikir's feedback. He has been playing Tron and Arthur since Vanilla, he's good at the game, and he made that awesome Arthur combo video that I posted recently. We should take his feedback seriously:
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72784621]Because it's better than standing H at the ranges it hits, and I use standing H more than any other move with Hawkeye. And now you can combo after it on standing opponents.
I'll tell you a secret because you seem sad about it.
[/QUOTE]
That's a good secret.
Morrigan has air dashes and projectiles that come out from behind you, and Arthur has medium durability projectiles, homing arrows, and an invincible DP. Arthur has problems in firefights, but Gold Arthur is a dominator.
No one uses Gold Bottle outside of combo videos. And you should read the changes when I first post them.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72784621]Because it's better than standing H at the ranges it hits, and I use standing H more than any other move with Hawkeye. And now you can combo after it on standing opponents.
I'll tell you a secret because you seem sad about it.
6M xx Poison Shot OTG
That's a good secret.
I feel like if they didn't make f + M special cancelable it was probably for a reason most likely due to it might getting crazy combos. So if it was going to be made special cancelable it had to lose the OTG property. Personally the move doesn't even look like it should OTG and it being special cancelable makes it a much more useful move in the neutral. As far as combos go if you can still do stuff like f + M into Poison shot OTG then that's fine because combos are not removed just made more execution heavy.
Making characters be interesting while having them make sense is good..... and it applies here. It's like when Zero players were upset that the float time and hard knockdown on Buster was nerfed so they got upset at first... then they discovered the power of special cancelable Buster and they forgot all about Vanilla Zero.
Making characters be interesting while having them make sense is good..... and it applies here. It's like when Zero players were upset that the float time and hard knockdown on Buster was nerfed so they got upset at first... then they discovered the power of special cancelable Buster and they forgot all about Vanilla Zero.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72785836]Why are you fighting this? There's no way this is a nerf.
This should be you right now:
[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying it would be a nerf, but it still seems like an arbitrary change to me.
But yeah, f.M into poison shot would work, and probably give Hawkeye more damaging combos.
I'm not on the committee so you guys decide whatever you want. I still doubt we will get a patch for this game. Ono was probably trolling us.
This should be you right now:
I'm not saying it would be a nerf, but it still seems like an arbitrary change to me.
But yeah, f.M into poison shot would work, and probably give Hawkeye more damaging combos.
I'm not on the committee so you guys decide whatever you want. I still doubt we will get a patch for this game. Ono was probably trolling us.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Kamikaze is way better, and I've played people that use that assist to good effect.
Making Hawkeye's zoning more reliable at the range he's weakest is arbitrary to you? Do you use Hawkeye exclusively as an anchor or something? I don't see how a Hawkeye player would miss that. Even the FGTV guys brought it up, and they had far less changes than we do. Most people are worried it'd be too strong, not pointless.
Why not just keep Bottle and replace Slash with Axe?
I have seen people use Gold bottle assist, shit is pretty good as a lock down. I guess you can improve the start up as an assist so it's better to use outside of combos but the move has really interesting properties I wouldn't like it if he lost it completely.
I didn't read the Arthur changes until now because I was concentrating on Wesker. Until the next batch of characters is released people are free to discuss characters whenever they want.
And I still don't see what's absurd about Gold armor refresh. That shit is supposed to be good, Gold armor holds back Arthur in its current form. Top players don't want to pick him because regular Arthur sucks and Gold armor is too much of a liability they would rather pick Hawkeye because he is far more reliable.
I have seen people use Gold bottle assist, shit is pretty good as a lock down. I guess you can improve the start up as an assist so it's better to use outside of combos but the move has really interesting properties I wouldn't like it if he lost it completely.
I didn't read the Arthur changes until now because I was concentrating on Wesker. Until the next batch of characters is released people are free to discuss characters whenever they want.
And I still don't see what's absurd about Gold armor refresh. That shit is supposed to be good, Gold armor holds back Arthur in its current form. Top players don't want to pick him because regular Arthur sucks and Gold armor is too much of a liability they would rather pick Hawkeye because he is far more reliable.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Plus, Hawkeye is cooler than Arthur. One shot's all he needs, none of this restart the whole game crap.
Karsticles
Member
I'll go with Gold Armor refresh.
Ax Toss has way better lockdown in Gold Armor, and it pushes back full screen. It's basically a superior version of Rapid Slash. I'll put Fire Bottle back in, though.
Tron changes after reading Rikir's feedback:
Tron Bonne:
*j.H returned to Vanilla status.
*Servbot Takeout can be X-Factor canceled on whiff.
*Gustaff Fire is now upper body invincible.
*Servbot Launcher recovery reduced to 20; assist now reaches superjump height.
*Beacon Bomb recovery reduced to 10 frames.
*Servbot Takeout sends servbots onto the screen regardless of whether the beacon hit.
*Bandit Boulder now travels full screen; hitstun increased to allow solo combos off of throws.
*Ground dash now attack and crouch cancelable.
*Shakedown Mixer now leads to full combos.
Assists: Gustaff Fire, Bonne Strike H (fully mashed), Servbot Launcher (Tracking)
"God's Beard!"
Member
Hawkeye is friends with Captain America, Iron Man, The Hulk and Scarlett Johansson. Does Arthur even have any friends?
LOL how you guys gonna incorporate all those Rikir Arthur changes?
I told you guys Arthur needed more than 10 slots.
And let's at least lock in Hawkeye. You guys can debate over the assist but I fully approve the point changes. Only thing I would add on Gimlet is that the projectile becomes more "instant" in that you can't dash out of it.
That Tron snapback change request is totally legit. That snap back has recovery for DAYS.. Abegen can't even get a legit mix up on Phoenix or Vergil after it.
I told you guys Arthur needed more than 10 slots.
And let's at least lock in Hawkeye. You guys can debate over the assist but I fully approve the point changes. Only thing I would add on Gimlet is that the projectile becomes more "instant" in that you can't dash out of it.
That Tron snapback change request is totally legit. That snap back has recovery for DAYS.. Abegen can't even get a legit mix up on Phoenix or Vergil after it.
Karsticles
Member
All snapbacks are now +1 on block, so I think it's assumed that she'll recover significantly faster now.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Good enough for me
"God's Beard!"
Member
Damn, I was hoping you'd say the princess so I could say the Ghosts n' Goblins are his delusions about her goth friends :-(
The princess is his daughter, right? Cause he's the king?
Karsticles
Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72790881]Damn, I was hoping you'd say the princess so I could say the Ghosts n' Goblins are his delusions about her goth friends :-([/QUOTE]
You still got to say it. ;-)
Is everyone against the Hawkeye assist change? Because I really think it's an improvement.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72790881]Damn, I was hoping you'd say the princess so I could say the Ghosts n' Goblins are his delusions about her goth friends :-(
The princess is his daughter, right? Cause he's the king?[/QUOTE]
You can be a princess and a queen.
You still got to say it. ;-)
Is everyone against the Hawkeye assist change? Because I really think it's an improvement.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72790881]Damn, I was hoping you'd say the princess so I could say the Ghosts n' Goblins are his delusions about her goth friends :-(
The princess is his daughter, right? Cause he's the king?[/QUOTE]
You can be a princess and a queen.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72790881]Damn, I was hoping you'd say the princess so I could say the Ghosts n' Goblins are his delusions about her goth friends :-(
The princess is his daughter, right? Cause he's the king?[/QUOTE]
No princess is his waifu, and I think Dante likes him too actually
The princess is his daughter, right? Cause he's the king?[/QUOTE]
No princess is his waifu, and I think Dante likes him too actually
Ah I forgot about the universal snapback change.
Oh man now I can snap in characters as Vergil too because his snapback lingers for a long time too.
Arthur gets respect in my book because he fought alongside the Legendary Dark Knight Sparda. They were both pals.
I am 50/50 on the Hawkeye assist change. I have seen people use the current assist, I mean its not godlike but if you already have a projectile assist on the team then its fine. The new assist I am just worried if it might have combo breaking potential. It would be safer to just leave it out.
Those new Arthur changes are very agreeable for me.
Oh man now I can snap in characters as Vergil too because his snapback lingers for a long time too.
Arthur gets respect in my book because he fought alongside the Legendary Dark Knight Sparda. They were both pals.
I am 50/50 on the Hawkeye assist change. I have seen people use the current assist, I mean its not godlike but if you already have a projectile assist on the team then its fine. The new assist I am just worried if it might have combo breaking potential. It would be safer to just leave it out.
Those new Arthur changes are very agreeable for me.
Karsticles
Member
It adds another superjump-level anti-air to the game, though. That's why I'm big on it.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Well he doesn't say "my queen", so I'm assuming she's an... unrequited love?
Yes, yes, we know about your grand adventure towards giving every possible character superjump height anti air assists.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
It's still a shame arthur got gimped out on all his magic spells in this. Only one he got was the dragon
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72792156]Well he doesn't say "my queen", so I'm assuming she's an... unrequited love?[/QUOTE]
He's sitting in his boxers with her out in an open field relaxing. Take that as you will :lol
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72792156]Well he doesn't say "my queen", so I'm assuming she's an... unrequited love?[/QUOTE]
He's sitting in his boxers with her out in an open field relaxing. Take that as you will :lol
"God's Beard!"
Member
So unleashing the dragon is a double entendre?
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72792446]So unleashing the dragon is a double entendre?[/QUOTE]
Pretty much. Why do you think he's out of breath at the end of it?
Pretty much. Why do you think he's out of breath at the end of it?
Ragtime sort of already does that although obviously not nearly as good. The move has crazy hit stun too and is sometimes used for swag combos.
If you want to make it absurdly good give it tracking instead of just being confined to one spot on the screen. But only for SJ height.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I still feel like he's more of a 'sit in a tree in his boxers looking through a window' kinda guy.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72792796]I still feel like he's more of a 'sit in a tree in his boxers looking through a window' kinda guy.[/QUOTE]
Nah he's too manly for that.
Nah he's too manly for that.
Also can we have the revised Hulk and Wesker changes?
And I thought we were discussing between triple Servbot Launcher and tracking Servbot Launcher? I still want that triple launcher, I don't think every anti air assist needs tracking to be decent. Makes the assist more interesting than just "oh look another tracking assist...."
And I thought we were discussing between triple Servbot Launcher and tracking Servbot Launcher? I still want that triple launcher, I don't think every anti air assist needs tracking to be decent. Makes the assist more interesting than just "oh look another tracking assist...."