I have a feeling even with a passive 10% speed buff, no one is going to go for optimized combos.
I like convoluted things. :X
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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
Does that means he shouldn't have it?
Karsticles
Member
Oh right. Well, crossover counter during the Gamma Quake cinematic screen (still in blockstun from Gamma Charge) for an easy way out, or just chicken block the Gamma Quake. The idea is that Hulk can use the split second before the rocks come down for a 50/50 command grab, which makes the bar worthwhile to spend. As it is, it's a really bad hyper with no purpose.
Yeah, Wesker players are lazy. That's why they play Wesker. If they wanted to work hard they would pick someone else.
Nah, I'm just saying. I personally like the speed boost. It makes him way more fun to play, which was my biggest problem with him in vanilla. He's a lot more fun to play in Ultimate.
But Capcom made a pretty shitty mechanic regardless, and one that's hard to 'fix'. For that matter, Phantom Dance is a horrendously designed super.
Or, ya know, they like the character.
Very few (tournament) players use optimized combos, and most of those players don't use Wesker. JWong doesn't use optimized combos because he understands what it takes to get the job done.
Karsticles
Member
Sure they like the character, but if Wesker took C. Viper levels of skill to play, most Wesker mains would move on.
It's a safe DHC in hyper for Hulk in the corner. Well it's supposed to be except he gets grabbed out of it which is what really makes it shitty.
Man KBR could win EVO with this Hulk no lie. Just allowing him combo off of ground grab... if any character was balanced around specifically not having a ground grab it's Hulk. Makes st.H OS even stronger. This also means that now that people would rather take their chances in the air with up back they are easier to scoop with anti air grab.... which we also buffed in that now you don't need OTG assist you can pick up with Lariat assist. And that also opens up Hulk with Lariat and another top assist to pressure you with.
So glad we nerfed his scaling. Universal health increase would mean that not every touch guarantees death but they will still hurt a lot.
Also most Wesker players have already moved on from the character. One of the few Wesker who gets top 8 also has Viper on his team, the other has Dante and Trish. No one gets by on basic Wesker anymore... and they shouldn't which is fine.
Man KBR could win EVO with this Hulk no lie. Just allowing him combo off of ground grab... if any character was balanced around specifically not having a ground grab it's Hulk. Makes st.H OS even stronger. This also means that now that people would rather take their chances in the air with up back they are easier to scoop with anti air grab.... which we also buffed in that now you don't need OTG assist you can pick up with Lariat assist. And that also opens up Hulk with Lariat and another top assist to pressure you with.
So glad we nerfed his scaling. Universal health increase would mean that not every touch guarantees death but they will still hurt a lot.
Also most Wesker players have already moved on from the character. One of the few Wesker who gets top 8 also has Viper on his team, the other has Dante and Trish. No one gets by on basic Wesker anymore... and they shouldn't which is fine.
Karsticles
Member
I removed the conversion on his ground throw after thinking about it a bit, but I put your command throw idea in.
Thank god. That change only occurred to me after seeing Dahbomb's post, and I was already ready to cry in a corner.
Karsticles
Member
Hahaha. I hate Hulk, so no bias in my buffs. Then again, I hate most of this game's cast.
Karsticles
Member
I mean hate to play against, not legitimately hate. The only character that I wish this game did not have is Zero, and that because MMX should have been in.
Characters I hate playing against:
Hulk
Haggar
Nova
Vergil
Zero(though much, much less so than I used to. I can actually enjoy fighting him if I'm in a good mood)
Hidden Missiles
Not too many. I don't really hate characters so much as player's playstyles(mainly just the ones that do things that make no sense to me, which is most people online). My ultimate hate/rage is reserved for shitty Dantes, though. The ones that only know how to raw teleport, mash j.S in every situation and combo with Million Stabs. I want to write angry messages saying 'STOP PLAYING DANTE IF YOU CAN'T ACTUALLY PLAY HIM FSJKL:SHDFUHWEIrfjsa'
I'm a terrible person, btw.
Hulk
Haggar
Nova
Vergil
Zero(though much, much less so than I used to. I can actually enjoy fighting him if I'm in a good mood)
Hidden Missiles
Not too many. I don't really hate characters so much as player's playstyles(mainly just the ones that do things that make no sense to me, which is most people online). My ultimate hate/rage is reserved for shitty Dantes, though. The ones that only know how to raw teleport, mash j.S in every situation and combo with Million Stabs. I want to write angry messages saying 'STOP PLAYING DANTE IF YOU CAN'T ACTUALLY PLAY HIM FSJKL:SHDFUHWEIrfjsa'
I'm a terrible person, btw.
"God's Beard!"
Member
The only character I legitimately hate is Iron Fist.
I've gotten more or less caught up on the current four characters being discussed.
Hulk: I'm in agreement with Dahbomb that Hulk will look bizarre crouch-cancelling/attack-cancelling his ground dash since he's going airborne during it (both visually and literally). How would this change actually be implemented? Would you keep the animation the same, but change it so Hulk is technically grounded the whole time (could no longer hop over certain crouching characters, etc.)? Do you make it so he still goes airborne but if you crouch or attack cancel the move he instantly teleports to the ground? I think this needs more clarification for how you guys actually want it to work.
Arthur: As someone whose main sparring partner is an anchor Arthur player, I feel we need to be exceedingly careful in how we change the character. The main issue is that x-factor level 3 Arthur can be terrifying in the current version of the game (if you don't have x-factor yourself especially- he's very vanilla Phoenix-like in how as long as he's alive, he FORCES you to save x-factor or else you lose the match). I also fully agree that non-xf Arthur is pretty ass. How do you make regular Arthur strong and viable w/o making anchor Arthur absurd? You certainly don't do this by giving him better tracking on homing crossbow bolts and letting him refresh gold armor until his meter is depleted.
Hawkeye: You never see a point-Hawkeye focused team, but I think it presents a lot of problems for many different team combinations. Hawkeye is a good character already, so I'm also wary of buffing him all the much. That being said, the things proposed so for seem like pretty small fixes/improvements rather than significant buffs, so I'm OK with them.
Wesker: I like the proposal to improve his regular counters, even if the specifics haven't been ironed out yet. Rhino charge needing vanilla invincibility and phantom dance no longer crossing up are no-brainers. How to deal with glasses (or whether to deal with glasses) is a very debatable, and there are a bunch of possible solutions. Dahbomb lists 3:
There have been other proposals:
4) Make him lose the shades by getting damaged, he puts them back on when you do phantom dance (as S-kill thought it worked, as Karst mentioned)
5) Make Wesker's taunt remove the glasses (Frantic's suggestion, I believe)
I don't like removing the mechanic entirely- better to fix something than to outright remove it, so I wouldn't vote for option 2 or 3. Option 1 seems to promote brain-dead play (do phantom dance immediately at the start of the round in relative safety), so hopefully we can do better than that. Losing the shades solely by being damaged (option 4) would make glasses-off combos pretty rare, but maybe this isn't the worst thing in the world. Making Wesker's taunt remove his glasses would be functionally identical to what we have now, since taunts are THC cancellable- he could just taunt xx THC at the beginning of every round and it'd be essentially what Wesker players already do now.
What about other possibilities? You could remove the buff activation off phantom dance when phantom dance trades (or even only activate the buff when phantom dance successfully hits the point character), that way the mechanic is mostly preserved, but you can't throw out phantom dance willy-nilly and get an reliable instant permanent xf1 boost. You'd at least have to earn a clean hit or risk wasting your meter for nothing.
Hulk: I'm in agreement with Dahbomb that Hulk will look bizarre crouch-cancelling/attack-cancelling his ground dash since he's going airborne during it (both visually and literally). How would this change actually be implemented? Would you keep the animation the same, but change it so Hulk is technically grounded the whole time (could no longer hop over certain crouching characters, etc.)? Do you make it so he still goes airborne but if you crouch or attack cancel the move he instantly teleports to the ground? I think this needs more clarification for how you guys actually want it to work.
Arthur: As someone whose main sparring partner is an anchor Arthur player, I feel we need to be exceedingly careful in how we change the character. The main issue is that x-factor level 3 Arthur can be terrifying in the current version of the game (if you don't have x-factor yourself especially- he's very vanilla Phoenix-like in how as long as he's alive, he FORCES you to save x-factor or else you lose the match). I also fully agree that non-xf Arthur is pretty ass. How do you make regular Arthur strong and viable w/o making anchor Arthur absurd? You certainly don't do this by giving him better tracking on homing crossbow bolts and letting him refresh gold armor until his meter is depleted.
Hawkeye: You never see a point-Hawkeye focused team, but I think it presents a lot of problems for many different team combinations. Hawkeye is a good character already, so I'm also wary of buffing him all the much. That being said, the things proposed so for seem like pretty small fixes/improvements rather than significant buffs, so I'm OK with them.
Wesker: I like the proposal to improve his regular counters, even if the specifics haven't been ironed out yet. Rhino charge needing vanilla invincibility and phantom dance no longer crossing up are no-brainers. How to deal with glasses (or whether to deal with glasses) is a very debatable, and there are a bunch of possible solutions. Dahbomb lists 3:
There have been other proposals:
4) Make him lose the shades by getting damaged, he puts them back on when you do phantom dance (as S-kill thought it worked, as Karst mentioned)
5) Make Wesker's taunt remove the glasses (Frantic's suggestion, I believe)
I don't like removing the mechanic entirely- better to fix something than to outright remove it, so I wouldn't vote for option 2 or 3. Option 1 seems to promote brain-dead play (do phantom dance immediately at the start of the round in relative safety), so hopefully we can do better than that. Losing the shades solely by being damaged (option 4) would make glasses-off combos pretty rare, but maybe this isn't the worst thing in the world. Making Wesker's taunt remove his glasses would be functionally identical to what we have now, since taunts are THC cancellable- he could just taunt xx THC at the beginning of every round and it'd be essentially what Wesker players already do now.
What about other possibilities? You could remove the buff activation off phantom dance when phantom dance trades (or even only activate the buff when phantom dance successfully hits the point character), that way the mechanic is mostly preserved, but you can't throw out phantom dance willy-nilly and get an reliable instant permanent xf1 boost. You'd at least have to earn a clean hit or risk wasting your meter for nothing.
Karsticles
Member
I hate Dormammu mirrors. Projectiles aren't safe due to teleports, so it's just a bunch of teleporting around and j.H/S swiping until someone screws up. It's so goddamn confusing.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Gold Firebottle is one of the best lock down assist in the game removing that only hurts his team synergy, replacing the uppercut with crossbow is fine but now he looses his only good cross counter assist *no one would do this anyways* Arthur recovers fast enough from his air throw, what you want is longer knockdown stun like what nova has.
While you are at it increase the amount of frames s.M has armor on it.
I hate Dante/Strider mirrors because I play a very reserved style of Dante/Strider, and I am thinking of the best options for the duo in every situation and preemptively try to counter the options and then they just A2 + teleport.
Even when I win, I am boiling with rage.
I always forget that's a thing.
Karsticles
Member
Does it look weird when Storm and Magneto go into c.L?
We're nerfing XF3 Arthur through the XF nerfs and buffs no longer stacking multiplicatively (he gets a speed boost in Gold Armor it seems). I do not think this is something to be too worried about.
I love this suggestion. No scrubby random Phantom Dance at the start of the round, mechanic preserved. If he gets hit, it smacks those glasses back on his face. Or hell, maybe he just shouldn't get the buff at all until he uses his taunt to put the glasses back on (no THC canceling the animation).
Gold Axe > Gold Firebottle for lockdown and general use, IMO.
Yeah, I'm aware he won't have a crossover counter - that's fine, he has great DHCs.
I think he could recover faster from the air throw. Fastest air throw recovery might be Dormammu IMO.
Argue the s.M to me.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
He has a slow ass standing M with absolutely shitty start up and the pay off of it is that it's supposed to be an armored move, well the funny thing is it has hardly any frames of armor on it on top of all that. Oh and it's range sucks
Karsticles
Member
Medium durability, pushes back full screen, and provides lockdown and anti-airs are jump height. :-D
K.
I don't know about XBLA but it impossible for me to pull like 50% of Dante's combos on PSN. I drop even the basic bold cancel bnb. I can't even get weasel shot.
Karsticles
Member
3D0C should hit characters on the sidelines. It's a big explosion.
Storm and Magneto are really low to the ground even though their animation shows them to be hovering rather than having their feet planted. Hulk not only visually leaves the ground (in an obvious fashion) but the character is actually airborne (unlike Mags and Storm, right?), so I don't think it's the best comparison to begin with. Hulk's dash lets him hop over many crouching characters. How can a dash that brings Hulk high enough in the air to go over a majority of the cast while they're crouching be crouch-cancellable? It just seems off to me.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Basically the problem with arthur is unlike every other zoner in the game he lacks mobility to get the fuck out of situations. Thus if you want him to not forever be fucked over once someone gets in he needs a stronger melee range game. Which isn't saying a lot as with the exception of c.M and S they all have shit range for the speed they come out at.
Though the lance and shield changes help towards that already, as well as him being able to solo combo off an air throw. A better standing M like say on par with a real armor move would push him past the "well looks like I'm stuck at melee range unless I burn a meter to push you back "
Which pretty much no other zoner has to do. As well they have mobility tools.
If you want the easy way out make heavenly slash safe on block :lol
Though the lance and shield changes help towards that already, as well as him being able to solo combo off an air throw. A better standing M like say on par with a real armor move would push him past the "well looks like I'm stuck at melee range unless I burn a meter to push you back "
Which pretty much no other zoner has to do. As well they have mobility tools.
If you want the easy way out make heavenly slash safe on block :lol
Karsticles
Member
When Hulk ground dashes, he can jump at any time, and he just springs to the floor and then does just jump animation. I don't see how this is more problematic. No one has ever said that Hulk looks awkward teleporting to the ground for his jump animation while dashing.
Also, I just checked the Killer Instinct thread to see what everyone is talking about, thinking that maybe a new screenshot got released or something. Nope, pages and pages of talking about what a graphical achievement the game is. Sigh.
We left his ability to OTG two characters in. Check the changelog before making arguments this dumb.If Zero can't do it, Dorm can't either
In all seriousness, Arthur has better pressure and mix-ups than Hawkeye.
It really all depends on the connection for me, though I rarely have it so bad I can't get a bold cancel. I'm pretty consistent with my combos and usually end up flubbing hitconfirms more than combos themselves. Really good connections I can actually perform upshot loops on.
But even when the connection is bad, there are some players I can tell actually know what they're doing with Dante but they just can't do what they want to do(and this happens to me in a lot of cases). The rest just pick him but don't actually put any more effort into learning him other than j.S > Hammer > Cold Shower and teleport.
A graphical achievement in making my eyes bleed. I cannot look at the game for very long because of all the sparks and shit going on screen at once. I'm usually pretty okay with tons of particle effects, but holy shit Killer Instinct hurts my eyes with its overboard particle effects.
Anyways, I'm going to sleep on the Wesker debacle some. Maybe I'll have an inspirational dream.
doubt it
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
He also has about 10% of the mobility Hawkeye does
Karsticles
Member
I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on Zissou's suggestion for the glasses mechanic, because IMO it's perfect. That has my vote.
I honestly usually win the firefight against Hawkeye with Arthur. Superjump j.S canceled into Crossbow creates more pressure than Hawkeye can at an angle he can't fire at an deal with.
Hawkeye has a double jump?
I honestly usually win the firefight against Hawkeye with Arthur. Superjump j.S canceled into Crossbow creates more pressure than Hawkeye can at an angle he can't fire at an deal with.
Ideas for buffs for Iron Man.
A laser.
Wrist Rockets
hand beams
Strong Melee move
various weapons, gives a sense of how many moves he could have (like Dante) , also build presence.
again, lasers, this could be another Hyper.
homing/tracking shoulder rockers.
also, I couldn't find gifs of it, but if you watch the movies you can clearly see that IM has excellent air mobility. In IM2 flying through the tunnels and the steel globe, similar flight moves in Avengers like pressing on the brakes to shoot a chitari then blast off again, and finally in IM3, saving the people during the airplane scene. IM should be faster and more mobile in the air. Personally, he should be speed up on the ground as well.
A laser.
Wrist Rockets
hand beams
Strong Melee move
various weapons, gives a sense of how many moves he could have (like Dante) , also build presence.
again, lasers, this could be another Hyper.
homing/tracking shoulder rockers.
also, I couldn't find gifs of it, but if you watch the movies you can clearly see that IM has excellent air mobility. In IM2 flying through the tunnels and the steel globe, similar flight moves in Avengers like pressing on the brakes to shoot a chitari then blast off again, and finally in IM3, saving the people during the airplane scene. IM should be faster and more mobile in the air. Personally, he should be speed up on the ground as well.
We left his ability to OTG two characters in. Check the changelog before making arguments this dumb.
Well in that case... Dorm still shouldn't have it :>
Jk dawg, haven't seen the changelog for a while lol.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Hawkeye has a slide, and dashes backwards or forwards he also has better normals.
If arthur was better than Hawkeye he would show up more than Hawkeye does.
Arthur's J.S cancel stuff is a blessing for him but it's still a band aid fix
Karsticles
Member
Who said anything about being better than Hawkeye? I just said he has more than 10% of his mobility.
And Hawkeye really only shows up on Yipes and Flocker's team. And ironically, since they both play Vergil, they would be better off with Arthur because Dagger Toss is GODLIKE for Vergil.
Messing around in training mode a bit, I don't think jump-cancelling his dash looks strange because if you do it really early, you haven't even left the ground yet from the dash (so it looks fine) and if you jump cancel later, it looks like he took a short hop and then a proper jump immediately after (kind of like triple jumping in Mario 64 or something).
Maybe you could make the dash crouch/attack-cancellable in the early part of the dash, but if you wait too long it would only jump cancellable? Who knows- maybe I'd see him crouch cancelling out of the air and it wouldn't bother me. It's hard to say.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
It is
It creates some really really really really really long block string mix ups. but shush dont tell anyoneKarsticles
Member
My point is that if you cancel the dash into j.H, it would look just like that same mini-hop he gets in his pre-jump frames.
Firebrand has the same thing going on. He leaves his feet and leaps forward, and no one cares about how it looks.
Edit: Actually, isn't there an H&H card to enable dash-canceled normals? Maybe you could just slap it on there and see how it looks.
I am telling everyone! :-XIt is
Professor Beef
Banned
Why is there no mention of Arthur not being fucked over when his armor explodes on that changelist?
That explains why you like Dante, I guess.
That explains why you like Dante, I guess.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
He can already do this. I do it with Unibeam. The timing for Lariat is a fucking pain in the ass though. So making it easier would definitely be good.
I would've commented earlier but typing on my phone is a pain in the ass at work.....plus I get shit reception.
Yup. I have similar complaints. Shitty Dantes are even worse when they land a magical Hammer thanks to the lag gods, and then they Million Dollars XF Million Dollars and then taunt before your next character comes in.
I'm okay with fighting Zero, I only get salty if the guy does Lightning Buster Lightning...and gets away with it when I try to punish.
Also you forgot Super Skrull. Meteor Smash in XF2/3? Is it gonna hit you? I DUNNO LOL
rogueyoshi
Neo Member
that proposed hulk super change would make him better at "follow my lead" than just about any other character in the game (if one of his assists allows that super for THCs, anyways. not sure...)
These both sound good.
I respectfully disagree with this change. I don't get what is wrong with it OTGing right now. If you get rid of that you get rid of simple relaunches using it in XF3 and all of my assist extensions with Drones and Vajra.
This Change is no good IMO. If you get rid of the OTG on f.M then you can't get as long combos off air throw without assists.
Cool.
Also cool.
I was going to comment on the Balalaika changes that made it hit mid screen, but it looks like you took those out already.
Looks good.
*If actual Arthur players think Gold Armor refresh is too good, maybe we can replace that with no knockdown when Gold Armor breaks?
* Can we give him a ground dash? I don't care how " authentic" capcom wanted to make Arthur, he should really have one. (Unless that would require new animations)
I think it is perfect. The glasses buff is still useful, but you can't YOLO maximum wesker at the start of the round just to get the buff.
So now we are discussing how to fix Glasses mechanic?
I do agree that if Glasses Mechanic is voted to stay on, the bare minimum that has to change is that the buff doesn't activate until Phantom Dance has completed it's hyper animation. It still doesn't fix the issue for smart Wesker play but at least it will discourage super dooper dumb Wesker play.
This still doesn't fix the main problem that you don't have access to his optimized BnBs at the start of the match. You are still punishing Wesker/Phoenix players, you are still not encouraging people to learn their optimized BnBs.
I do agree that if Glasses Mechanic is voted to stay on, the bare minimum that has to change is that the buff doesn't activate until Phantom Dance has completed it's hyper animation. It still doesn't fix the issue for smart Wesker play but at least it will discourage super dooper dumb Wesker play.
"God's Beard!"
Member
No, you just have to change your combos and Hawkeye becomes a much stronger character in the neutral for it. You'd be surprised what Hawkeye can do when you plan out your combos correctly.
Karsticles
Member
I added the option for him to refresh it, so now he is fucked when the armor explodes, but he has options to keep it going. Alternatively, we could have it explode when he takes damage...I'm not a fan of just making it a soft knockdown.
The heavies were always supposed to be good for that, so I think that's okay. It's already really good as it is. I fought someone who used Wesker/Hulk/someone THCs, and the damage was just...woah.
There are concerns that if f.M OTGs and is special cancelable, it will lead to some unintended combos/infinites. Right now, it doesn't feel like an interesting move because the ice arrow OTG is just as good.
I'm glad to hear someone else didn't like that.I was going to comment on the Balalaika changes that made it hit mid screen, but it looks like you took those out already.
A dash would require an animation, and we should try to keep the changes reasonable. Capcom was already begged by Arthur players to give him a dash in Ultimate, and it didn't happen. The Gold Armor should definitely break, the question is just what kind of break, and under what circumstances.
Yay!
I can run some sets with you in a few days on PSN.
It never stopped!
Not accessing optimized bnbs at the start of the match isn't a problem. Some characters have to earn that stuff, and Wesker is just one of them. How about this for the glasses mechanic:
1) Phantom Dance has to complete to get the glasses buff.
2) If Wesker is hit during Phantom Dance, his glasses remain on, but he gets no buff.
3) Wesker must taunt to return his glasses to his face and try to Phantom Dance again successfully.
4) If Wesker takes X% of his health in damage, the glasses break, giving him the buff.
So now Phoenix players have some option of getting it.