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[Dahbomb]

Oh wow I'm late. Well whatever here's my idea anyway. You nerf dark Phoenix a little bit and her xfactor values decrease too. But in return she gets a meter building assist that works just like morrigan. So it's easier to get dark Phoenix but she's less scary in dark form. Idk I thought it was a cool change.

Oh boy.... Phoenix teams would become too good with this. If you can play one top tier assist with Phoenix's meter building assist... man it would be too easy to get her to 5 bars. Also the only reason Dark Harmonizer Phoenix teams are not godlike is because you are essentially playing with no neutral assist, having one neutral assist plus meter building assist on a Phoenix team... might be over kill.

I guess technically speaking using the Phoenix assist puts her at a risk. It's an interesting change I will say that much.

 

[GuardianE]

Oh boy.... Phoenix teams would become too good with this. If you can play one top tier assist with Phoenix's meter building assist... man it would be too easy to get her to 5 bars. Also the only reason Dark Harmonizer Phoenix teams are not godlike is because you are essentially playing with no neutral assist, having one neutral assist plus meter building assist on a Phoenix team... over kill.

Not if Dark Phoenix is sufficiently nerfed as a mechanic and her health doesn't change (which makes her incredibly vulnerable as an assist).

 

["God's Beard!"]

I forgot, but if you land a grounded trap shot for whatever reason, you can use H+A2(EMD) to pop them up into the air and go right into a version of the fullscreen combo. I'll add it.

 

[Frantic]

That Vergil extension in the Arthur video was a new extension. I can't really say for sure, but is it better than the old one? My gut says yes, but I haven't really done the number crunching of the older ones.

 

[biosnake20]

Yeah it has to do with sufficiently nerfing her dark version.

 

[Renegade_Civil-War]

We already did. Both of them:


Phoenix:

*Dark Phoenix health drain rate reduced.
*Dark Phoenix feathers now travel 15% farther.
*TK Shot (air) no longer makes Phoenix prone until she lands.
*Only one TK Shot H may be performed per jump unless in flight (as with Trish’s traps).
*New Hyper: Overload; Phoenix loses all health immediately; requires 5 bars, rdp.AA.
*Flight startup reduced to 14 frames.
*f.M reduced to 19 frames.
*Multiple Dark Phoenix characters are now distinguishable on-screen.

Assists: TK Overdrive H, TK Shot H, TK Trap L
.

I see there are only 8 changes there.

How about that Healing Field buff where she doesn't take chip as Jean Grey? This would increase Jean Grey point viability.

Also, can we remove Dark Phoenix feathers on Jumping Down+H, so she can properly use the ground bounce? As is, the feathers nerf that move. Viscant suggested this too.

Also to consider: reversing the Health nerf from Vanilla->ultimate.

 

[Dahbomb]

Not if Dark Phoenix is sufficiently nerfed as a mechanic and her health doesn't change (which makes her incredibly vulnerable as an assist).

You would have to nerf Dark Phoenix dramatically for this not to be too good. Having a meter building assist removes 2 big hurdles to getting Dark Phoenix:

1) Having to play with only one usable assist.
2) Having to build meter by landing hits or making the opponent block

I mean Dormammu/Missiles/Phoenix? Once Dorm is set up that's guaranteed 5 bars. In between the Meteor, he can safely call Phoenix assist.

Or Magneto/Missiles/Phoenix. The character already builds a ton of bar in a combo, that's 1/3rd extra meter per combo he lands. Not to mention Doom himself stalling in the corner while calling the assists and spamming Photon Shots.

The only reason why Dorm/Morrigan/Phoenix is not that good in this game because Dorm has NOTHING to protect him. He has to be on point and he has nothing to save him if things get rough.

Also, can we remove Dark Phoenix feathers on Jumping Down+H, so she can properly use the ground bounce? As is, the feathers nerf that move. Viscant suggested this too.

I'm OK with this.

Also to consider: reversing the Health nerf from Vanilla->ultimate.

It's already reversed, everyone is getting 20% health buff in the system mechanics and that includes Phoenix too. She would have 450K health in the new game, that's enough to survive all LVL1s raw and even some raw LVL3s.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Added a version of the God combo in gif form.

 

[biosnake20]

But missiles would be sufficiently nerfed in this version in the game. Your talking about it like its unchanged. Hopefully in the patch no assists will be that strong. Also you can make the assist a little slower on recovery if it was too strong so it would be high risk high reward thing.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Also, each of my characters is a different primary color :3

God-tier synergy.

Hawkeye: yellow because he's annoying you
Vergil: red so I can pretend he's Dante
Magneto: historically blue candy magnus is used by the best Magneto player and everybody knows I'm the best Magneto in California

Spoiler

south of Neo and north of Fanatiq

 

[EasyMode]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72817021]combo into hyper grav L, jL air dash down, jump up air throw.
This one is really confusing since it starts out looking like you're continuing the combo, and you're bouncing around before the throw so your opponent doesn't know what's going on. The jL pops your opponent out without you having to go into recovery animations but keeps them close to the ground. In longer sets you can swap this out with other resets like a fake jump into standing L to catch the tech. This reset is great because you do it extremely late in the combo for a lot of damage.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for posting this, I really like the first reset. The second reset I don't have the execution for, haha.

I should also learn the reset FChamp is always doing, even if it's a bit predictable at this point.

 

[Dahbomb]

But missiles would be sufficiently nerfed in this version in the game. Your talking about it like its unchanged. Hopefully in the patch no assists will be that strong. Also you can make the assist a little slower on recovery if it was too strong so it would be high risk high reward thing.

Yea Missiles is getting nerfed but there are other better assists that will be in the game. Like Ghost Rider is getting a Lariat style Heartless Spire who now also chips on normals. Imagine him on point with Haggar Lariat on second. You get close to him you deal with new Spire + Lariat. You stay away from him he gets to call Phoenix assist and chip you with whips. If you end up with Haggar on point, he knows has Spire assist and his own Lariat + Pipe. If you stay away he can call Phoenix assist.

I guess if you make the Phoenix assist equivalent to like Ammy's meter building assist then MAYBE. Because then it would be a huge risk to call it out unless you are completely sure.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Thanks for posting this, I really like the first reset. The second reset I don't have the execution for, haha.

It seems really good. I've used it a lot on ranked as well as gaffers, and nobody from Professor Beef to Clockw0rk teched the throw so it must be effective. Just don't use it until you need to.

 

[Renegade_Civil-War]

It's already reversed, everyone is getting 20% health buff in the system mechanics and that includes Phoenix too. She would have 450K health in the new game, that's enough to survive all LVL1s raw and even some raw LVL3s.

Well, you said yourself everyone gets a universal 20%, so that means everyone else is getting buffed MORE than phoenix (i.e. a net nerf).

It's only a difference of 30k... but hey. Us phoenix players will take any scrap of health we can get.

I'd like to see Healing field used more than just a throwaway DP super when she runs out of Xfactor, but I don't know what else to suggest.

 

[biosnake20]

But at the same time your dealing with a less scary version of dark Phoenix. The point is you'll be seeing dark jean more often but you'll be able to deal with it.

 

[Dahbomb]

Regular Phoenix being able to survive a LVL3 is more than enough health for her. No more health to Phoenix.

But at the same time your dealing with a less scary version of dark Phoenix. The point is you'll be seeing dark jean more often but you'll be able to deal with it.

You will have to specify then how much are you nerfing her. Because in this current patch she has a hyper that she can activate to turn Dark Phoenix when she has 5 bars... which is why this strat is particularly strong. I don't know how much you can nerf her... nerfing Dark Phoenix is an exercise in futility. She either becomes too shit or too good. It's way easier to control her transform requirements ie. how meter gain works.

Basically what I am saying is that Phoenix is as strong as how easy/hard it is to get that 5 bars and how hard it is for her to turn into Dark after getting those 5 bars (more anti Phoenix set ups = worse Phoenix). By giving her a meter building assist you just buffed her dramatically on top of a transformation buff. For you to compensate that Dark Phoenix would have to be way worse.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

When are the next characters?

 

[Dahbomb]

When are the next characters?

NOW!

Dormammu
Super Skrull
Iron Fist
Nova

aka "The fire rises"

 

["God's Beard!"]

Swap Nova's air M and H and no changes for Iron Fist.

Lock 'em in. Karst can do the other two.

 

[ZeroCDR]

Purification tracking would be too good, wouldn't it?

I still want it.

 

[Dahbomb]

Iron Fist is so fucking bad that I am almost positive that 10 changes won't make him super good.

Iron Fist was discussed in another thread so I am just going to repeat stuff that was brought up.

*Wall of Kun Lun and Rising Fang can be performed without the Rekka series

*Damage scaling on normals upped from 5% to 10%

*Crescent Heel overhead does not bounce a standing opponent

*Cr.L should hit low (although the way the move is animated it doesn't really look like a low even though game play wise it definitely should be)

*Launcher can hit in an anti air and juggle situation

*Can now double jump

*More untechable time after air throws so you have more time to pick up with Crescent Heel

*Invincibility on Iron Rage increased on start up; travels further for first hit

*Chi's reworked. More on this later.

 

[MiniBossBattle]

I like Nova how he is. He is like "my first Magneto" character. With the exceptions of the super glitches (disappears on screen)

 

["God's Beard!"]

Iron Fist is so fucking bad that I am almost positive that 10 changes won't make him super good.

1. Rekkas negate pushblock
2. Rekkas can now cancel into themselves in a string

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

GGs Beef. That was probably the best I have ever did against you. I really felt like I learned some shit in those matches. I still feel like a total scrub when I play against you. It's the match up I guess. Great moments from both sides all around. ^5

Edit: Also what's the deal with slow mo? Is it neutral after the initial stun? I felt like I should not have been able to throw you or punish you as many times as I did. The only time I recalled where I didn't was when you upbacked. Am I just getting extremely lucky here?

 

[Renegade_Civil-War]

Nerf XF3 Skrull so meteor Smash->inferno isn't safe.

Give Skrull rolling hook as an assist



Give iron fist a glow fist than ignores pushblock? (this character is ass)


Nova: cut the OTG time on his throws and the distance on the OTG slide.

-seriously. Superjump height full screen OTG conversions should NOT happen.


Dorm; I largely like dorm as is. Maybe lower some of his hitboxes so they don't whiff?

 

[GuardianE]

I'd like to propose a small change to Dormammu's flame carpet's hitbox. Make it a hitbox that moves slightly back and forth horizontally and has increased blockstun. With the wonky hurtboxes in this game, it's possible to be crouched next to a flame carpet, not be in blockstun so you can't pushblock, but be struck low as soon as you stand up.

Nova: cut the OTG time on his throws and the distance on the OTG slide.

-seriously. Superjump height full screen OTG conversions should NOT happen.

I don't see a problem with this. He shouldn't have a million years to do it, like he does now, but making full combo conversions off of superjump airthrows is fine. Most characters already have it. Dante should have it. GIVE DANTE SOLO AIRTHROW CONVERSIONS.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

I think all of them besides Iron Fist are fine as is. Little shit here and there.

 

[Renegade_Civil-War]

*Wall of Kun Lun and Rising Fang can be performed without the Rekka series

Rising Fang can be done in the air?

 

["God's Beard!"]

Karst is gonna make Meteor Smash a tracking assist.

 

[Professor Beef]

GGs Beef. That was probably the best I have ever did against you. I really felt like I learned some shit in those matches. I still feel like a total scrub when I play against you. It's the match up I guess. Great moments from both sides all around. ^5

Edit: Also what's the deal with slow mo? Is it neutral after the initial stun? I felt like I should not have been able to throw you or punish you as many times as I did. The only time I recalled where I didn't was when you upbacked. Am I just getting extremely lucky here?

GGs. I handed the last few games to you on a silver platter when I messed up my SRK motions with Raccoon.

And yeah, we're both neutral after Slow ends. You press more buttons than GB does when you've got Hulk out, and his grab range is also larger.

Nerf XF3 Skrull so meteor Smash->inferno isn't safe.

This is ridiculous. Do not listen to this man.

 

[GuardianE]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72835231]Karst is gonna make Meteor Smash a tracking assist.[/QUOTE]

That's terrible. Certainly not with that hitbox/hurtbox combo.

 

[Dahbomb]

This is a hail mary type change but I am going to throw it out there anyway because technically there is no extra animation involved (Just a lot of text).

Chi system reworked:

*Every Chi activation now also activates a specific counter

*Every Chi now has an additional Rekka passive component

Attack Chi - Gains 20% damage, Rekkas now do 40% chip on block (up from the standard 35%), on counters to Low attacks instantly activates Dragons' Touch

Defense Chi - Gains 20% health, all Rekkas have 1 hit of armor, on counter to High attacks instantly activates Wall of Kun Lun.

Meter Chi - Gains 20% more meter, All Rekkas negate push block, on counter to Projectile attacks instantly activates Rising Fang

Rising Fang can be done in the air?

That's going to infuriate Karst but I am 100% behind it. Especially since Jill got air OK Arrow Kick and she already has a faster dive kick.

 

["God's Beard!"]

My slow mixup in sets is snap back a couple times, then walk up and throw.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Skrull

His assists suck. Rolling Hook and maybe meteor smash would be nice, but might be too good depending on how it's implemented. Tenderizer L.

Worm Squash should be able to be done as soon as the opponent hits the ground. Kind of a nitpick really, cause I don't see how much it would change anything.

Dorm

Something should be done about his creator spells, they are kinda shitty. I only have a couple of gimmicks with 0d3c. I'd like to use it more. OTG would be too good though for that one. 0d2c and 0d1c look like they should otg though and perhaps recover faster. Might lead to some new combos

Dark Dimension level 1 please. 200k damage.

 

["God's Beard!"]

0d3c should be an assist

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

I think one of the only Iron Fist rekkas that MIGHT be safe is Dragon Tail (qcb+L). This should be addressed. I agree with the negating pushblock.....except on the final rekka.

 

[Vice]

Change Nova's Nova Strike assist to Energy Javelin. His other two assist both serve a purpose but N.Strike has poor range and poor priority. E. Javelin as an assist provide a decent anti-air assist, something the game needs more of, and will let Nova fit into more slots on teams.

His box dash H is a bit too much. Perhaps a slower dash in exchange for slightly faster acceleration.

His hit stun deterioration needs work. His combos are very specific about when you have to do J.S one hit too many or a moment of delay will have the thing whiff and leave you in recover for 40(?) frames. Maybe just speed up J.S's startup.

Adjust the hitbox on his base beam super. It being duckable by some character is fine but certain characters like Morrigan, Vergil and Wolverine ducking under it is annoying.


Crouching or stand L +1 on block to give him safe options of attack on the ground. Right now I think his safest ground normal is -2.

But, as is Nova is a very fair character. He has great tools but has to work hard to apply them properly. Any buff could make him too strong but he doesn't have much to nerf either. The only thing I'm certain that wouldn't make him too strong or too weak would be Energy javelin assist.

Edit:
@Renegade
His super jump throw conversions were on purpose. His air throw will automatically end at the super jump height no matter what. If you toss a character when they're an inch off the ground or at the top of the screen it will always end at super jump height. His ability to combo after them is no more broken than Magneto's or Dooms. As he lacks many full screen options against a good chunk of the cast and his air-to-air game is inferior to other 8-way dash character his super jump conversions keep him a threat to someone who can just fly in the corner and toss down plasma. This is balanced by his incredibly predictable air dash and a plink air dash that are almost useless in the neutral against someone like Magneto. His throw range and ability to convert, and set up raw tags, keeps him from merely being a poor man's Magneto or Doom.

 

[Dahbomb]

On the other characters I just have very simple requests:

Dorm:

*Flame Carpet no longer hits Low (no more cheesy unblockables)
*Slight damage reduction on base normals
*Improve less useful spells especially 0D3C


Super Skrull:

*One of his ground specials moves has to be safe or positive on block. This character is unsafe as fuck and a main reason why he isn't more common or played more tactfully. Could use a more safe hyper as well.

*Change Tenderizer H assist to Tenderizer L assist. Normally I am not that big on changing around assists to different type but this one I am 100% behind because Tenderizer H assist leads to unblockables and is just simply very obtuse for most of the cast except for like 3 characters.

*Reduce damage on Inferno slightly


Nova:

*Red health using moves are rescaled to drain the following amount of health:

LVL2: From 1 - 100K red health
LVL3: 100K - 200K red health

No more having all of Nova's 70% red health used up because he wanted to use a special move.

*Less untechable time after air throws. He can still combo but no more whiffing normals, break dancing etc before going for an OTG

*Nova Strike changed to Energy Javelin (soft knockdown)

*Probably need to slightly nerf j.H box dash game, mostly because it's kinda too derp although good Nova players can get around fine without spamming it all the time

 

[Ghazi]

Fuck Hidden Missiles, god this shit is so fucking frustrating. I have to put the damn game down for a break because of one fucking assist, fuck this shit.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

On the other characters I just have very simple requests:



Super Skrull:

*One of his ground specials moves has to be safe or positive on block. This character is unsafe as fuck and a main reason why he isn't more common or played more tactfully. Could use a more safe hyper as well.




Nova:

*Red health using moves are rescaled to drain the following amount of health:

LVL1: From 1 - 100K red health
LVL2: 101K - 200K red health
LVL3: 201K - 300K red health

No more having all of Nova's red health used up because he wanted to use up a special move.

*Less untechable time after air throws. He can still combo but no more whiffing normals, break dancing etc before going for an OTG

*Nova Strike changed to Energy Javelin (soft knockdown)

For Skrull's safe move it should probably be Orbital Grudge.

For Nova it would be better if the red health mechanic was optional. Commands with S, besides the super. Your system works well too though.

Iron Fist should also have a shorter jump. Instant overheads and better combos and such.

 

[enzo_gt]

Via EH.

 

[Dahbomb]

Orbital Grudge right now is L version -10, M version -4 and H version -8. The follow up Fatal Buster is -18.

Apologyman recommended that Fatal Buster should be a move that he can use whenever as well. He also wanted slightly more hit stun on the Elastic Punch (mostly to set up command throws and such or to combo into assists).

 

[Vice]

Being able to choose to use a certain level of red health would be a bit derpy. His L and M pulse are devastating once powered up. They cleave through almost every non-super projectile in the game, stagger, wall bounce and allow for Nova to TOD solo. Being able to get say 3 level 1 Grav pulse M's in a combo would be too much.

 

[Frantic]

Nerf XF3 Skrull so meteor Smash->inferno isn't safe.

It's not safe, though? XF doesn't actually change the startup/active/recovery of supers, so if you block Inferno it's still -22 on block. Of course, the trick is actually blocking the Meteor Smash, but still.

If anything, make it so you can actually pushblock Inferno so you don't have to eat all that XF3 chip damage.

Also, some ideas for Dorm changes:

+ 0D3C now has 1F startup like 1D2C and 2D1C. Does not interact with other projectiles(if it doesn't already)
+ 0D1C and 0D2C now OTG. 0D2C pushes characters further back on block, forcing characters to block all three spikes(unless cornered)

Nova:

- Reduce untechable time after air throw by 40 frames

Why 40 frames? Nova's launcher is 45 frames total from start to finish where he cannot cancel it. Nova has time to airdash down j.H, s.S, and still pick up the opposing characters with a little bit of breathing room after the s.S. That's dumb.

 

[Dahbomb]

Being able to choose to use a certain level of red health would be a bit derpy. His L and M pulse are devastating once powered up. They cleave through almost every non-super projectile in the game, stagger, wall bounce and allow for Nova to TOD solo. Being able to get say 3 level 1 Grav pulse M's in a combo would be too much.

Under my system in order to use 3 LVL3 Grav Pulse M in a combo that would require almost 600K red health.

I think if you are sacrificing that much health (2/3rds of Nova's health) then yeah... you should be able to do good damage.

And honestly I would love it if someone did that in a tournament. Multi red health move combos do not exist in the game (in real match setting that is) and they should, would really open up his game and make him a more interesting character.

- Reduce untechable time after throw by 40 frames

Why 40 frames? Nova's launcher is 45 frames total from start to finish where he cannot cancel it. Nova has time to airdash down j.H, s.S, and still pick up the opposing characters with a little bit of breathing room after the s.S. That's dumb.

This is a fair and balanced change.

 

[Vice]

Under my system in order to use 3 LVL3 Grav Pulse M in a combo that would require almost 600K red health.

I think if you are sacrificing that much health (2/3rds of Nova's health) then yeah... you should be able to do good damage.

And honestly I would love it if someone did that in a tournament. Multi red health move combos do not exist in the game (in real match setting that is) and they should, would really open up his game and make him a more interesting character.

Right now his red health mechanic is fine the way it is. The forced bounces they cause would have to be toned down at the very least if you were able to use more than one in a combo.

I like them as a risk/reward. For the advantages you get I feel they should be a big investment for a character who already succeeds so much without the ability to use more than one per combo.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Right now his red health mechanic is fine the way it is. The forced bounces they cause would have to be toned down at the very least if you were able to use more than one in a combo.

I like them as a risk/reward. For the advantages you get I feel they should be a big investment for a character who already succeeds so much without the ability to use more than one per combo.

Personally I think you should have a choice on when to use the mechanic. There's many times when I want to set up a grav pulse H, but I'm not willing to lose so much life to do it. Kind of a bummer.

 

[Poltergust]

I know that we are currently discussing individual character changes, but I would like to propose a system change:

-If a character has a potential follow-up to their assist (Hulk's AA Gamme Charge, for example), then they should be allowed to do that follow-up during a Crossover Counter.

 

[Dahbomb]

The way I see it, assuming no scaling is in place...

1 Grav Pulse M/L lvl3 would do 250k damage. You are sacrificing 200k health of your own to use it. Sacrificing your own health and doing slightly more of the same damage to your opponent.... I think that's fair.

Plus its not like it will be every match you will be sitting on that much red health to use multi Grav combos. You will be using the Shields as well so that will deplete your health. The number of LVL3 moves you can actually do in a move is very very limited, they should be powerful and they should use a specific amount of red health. Because in a real match if you are sitting on 600K health and you want to use a Grav Pulse M move.. you now wasted 600k health to do 250k damage. Or worse you used it and it missed/was blocked so now you have shit to show for it aside from all that health you lost.

People should be encouraged to use the red health mechanic not discouraged.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

I know that we are currently discussing individual character changes, but I would like to propose a system change:

-If a character has a potential follow-up to their assist (Hulk's AA Gamme Charge, for example), then they should be allowed to do that follow-up during a Crossover Counter.

Yeah the game doesn't let you do shit properly after CC's. I'll do a CC with Joe's uppercut but no matter how much I mash H, not a damn thing will come out.