eso76
Member
But they did !
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Uncharted 4: A Thief's End |OT| You're gonna miss this ass
- Thread starter BaraSailey
- Start date
But they did !
Springfoot
Member
So I get that people like to find flaws and level these critiques at things for not being perfect enough, but I've never heard anyone mention how they would rather see things handled to correct these 'flaws'. Like if you want to keep the same shooting and action gameplay, does that mean you want a game where blithe and irreverent
Based on Alienous's and doofy102's previous comments, I have no idea what would make them happy (or rather if they actually care beyond wanting to nitpick things) - do they like the gameplay but think the story is too lighthearted and flippant and want something more grounded/grimdark? Do they like the story and therefore want the gameplay fundamentals reworked so it no longer resembles the Uncharted series? Both of those options seem to boil down to the opinion that an
It all seems to boil down to a bunch of vocal people who are incapable of suspending any disbelief and enjoying any kind of stylized fiction, or alternatively a bunch of people who enjoyed it like everyone else but need to say "let's find something to nitpick to show I'm smarter than the product" like that Contrarian Corner crap I mentioned in my last post.
Chapter that needed to be cut from the game...
the entire jailbreak Chapter feels pointless once you realize it was all a made up story by Sam...that entire Chapter should have been relayed to Nate in dialogue versus making the player waste their time playing a Chapter that never really happened
On the contrary, i think
that making you play this section helps you believe it really happened and not question it until Rafe tells you it was bullshit, and it preserves the twist.
if Sam had told Nate the story through dialogue we (the player) wouldn't have believed it any less...the jailbreak Chapter could have been used to better effect in my opinion...having it all be a dream/fantasy/lie just felt like a wasted Chapter to me
But we would have believed it less (i know i would). It's the classic "i believe what i see more than what i'm told".
You don't seem to get it, conidering how you dismiss it.
I'm going to list the elements of the concept and you can tell me where the logic fails.
Here we go:
Ludonarrative dissonance occurs when a there is a disconnect between the character (it could be tone also) you play in gameplay and the character you see in non-gameplay.
It is a flaw.
Making comparisons to Indiana Jones movies is irrelevant - they can't be ludonarratively dissonant. If you have an issue with the writing of the movies it's simply an issue with the writing of the movies.
Not all games are criticised equally regarding this aspect, as it is a larger flaw for a narrative-focused experience.
Avoiding ludonarrative dissonance means having gameplay that enforces the non-gameplay, and vice-versa. If you don't do those things, especially in a narrative-focused experience, that is a flaw. How big of a flaw depends how the player reacts.
I'm not saying that Uncharted should change genre, and I'm not undermining the experience as a whole. But if you have a character snap a man's neck, and that character doesn't seem outside of gameplay like someone who would snap a man's neck, then dissonance is created. Same as if during Uncharted gameplay you slit people's throats - you'd be like "Wait a second, what?".
It's a tricky thing, but it is a thing. You might not care but that doesn't negate its existence.
Uncharted 4 is a fantastic game.
MistBreeze
Member
Yes,,,, exactly
Im wrapping up my 2nd playthrough
And appreciate the game even more,,,
The thing is now I understand how to play the game better,,, because the encounters and stealth is way diferrent from previous ones,,,
enemeys flank you like crazy,,, it demands stealth as possible ( I cleared many areas only stealth,,, and you can sneak an area without killing a single enemy )
It is so much freedom suits everybodey playstyle,,,
It demands you to be mobile in intense firefights as enemeys flank you and lure you out using grenades,,, and it demand using blind fire as much as possible,,,,
You know what makes you have more fun????
Is to choose " restart encounter " from options menue when you are dead instead of the checkpoints which are usually mid- encounters,,,
This game is a true gem man even if not perfect,,, matter of fact no game is perfect ,,,
Springfoot
Member
I understand what the term means, thanks. Dismissal doesn't equate to a lack of understanding. The 'ludo' aspect is generally of less importance in every criticism where this is raised than the 'narrative' aspect. Indiana Jones has the same narrative dissonance that Uncharted does, one just happens when the player is forced to use a gun to kill an enemy in order to progress by pressing buttons and choosing not to turn off the console while the other has the character use a gun to kill enemies by allowing the movie to progress without turning off the VHS/DVD/BluRay player or walking out of the theater. It's a completely valid comparison, especially in a guided linear title like Uncharted.
Exactly, so maybe speak to what I posted about in the bit you snipped out of my quoted comment? Are you in the camp unable to suspend disbelief to the extent that any Indiana Jones-esque character story causes irreconcilable narrative dissonance for you that you're taken out of the experience? This is the camp where some fundamental aspect of the Uncharted formula needs to be changed, and if so, what is it for you? Are you into the character story about the relatable and human side of Drake and want to ditch the guns and combat gameplay? Or are you into the gameplay and want Drake to deal with the dark emotional consequences of killing other humans and being jacked up on adrenaline in the most extreme situations a human could experience?
Or alternatively are you in the second camp, where suspension of disbelief isn't nearly as difficult, you're perfectly fine with the pulpy lighthearted tone of the story and violent action, and are otherwise finding things to nitpick? This would be the camp of people who don't walk out of a Marvel movie critiquing the flaws of the physical impossibility of superpowers or the mental fortitude necessary to engage in apocalyptic battles on an annual basis.
It's one of the two, though. You can't divorce the blithe Nathan Drake character from the violent action and still have an Uncharted game, so the ludonarrative dissonance criticism is ultimately either a minor quibble being blown out of proportion and doesn't have any real affect on enjoyment - a flaw akin to and no more experience-ruining than the ludonarrative flaws of death reversal, health potions, ammo/loot storage space, etc. found in all videogames - or it's a more serious flaw that disengages you from enjoying the experience. If it's the latter I want to hear what your ideal version of the game would be.
I'm not talking about morphing Uncharted into TLoU, I'm interested in how you would rework Uncharted.
The reason I'm so dismissive in general is because these people I see throwing around the term generally seem to make it out to be a big issue, but simultaneously don't seem to care about those other ludonarrative flaws like death, healing, ammo storage, etc. These all exist, and these are all ludonarrative flaws as well, but you don't see critics throwing around these self-important criticisms of 'ludonarrative dissonance' when Silent Hill lets the player reload a save after dying. Similarly, in the Jimquisition video I linked, he points out that these critics get riled up when the dissonance is related to violence but couldn't care less when it's related to Booker from Bioshock pausing his emotionally harrowing journey to chase seagulls or eat trash, or Link stopping his quest to save the world from doom and enslavement to go catch butterflies and fish for local townsfolk.
So either they have some incredibly selective triggers for what disengages them from the experience, or they're just trying to nitpick things (and to what end, which cycles back to my earlier quandary if it's all a big faux-intellectual show). But if they're sincere and are actually failing to enjoy the game because of this dissonance, then I'm interested in what they would like to see from the series instead - major overhaul to the series formula to better align the story and gameplay? Transmute Uncharted into something that isn't Uncharted?
Fancy Clown
Member
Is it ever an option beyond this?
I felt like I never really saw another spot where it felt right. There are a few things they didn't really make a ton of use of in combat tbh (hand to hand, vertical cover, more rope hanging firefights, etc.) The focus on arenas sort of held back the ability to craft smaller sequences that focus on a specific moment.
This is why 8, 9, and 17 >>> the rest of the game, btw.
A lot of the arenas have those things in them though. I've used slides, hand to hand, ropes, and vertical cover a ton in a lot of fights because many are quite accommodating of all those options or the fights just flow naturally so you use them. But I agree there should have been more of those linear and specifically crafted firefights in between the arenas.
Ok, thanks. Funny thing is...when I learned English it took me many years to get the difference between the "sound of" American and British English. Not that this is very difficult...it just didn't click. Can any Gaf-Brits confirm that Emily Rose sounds super-American? I'm trying to expand my horizon here
I'm a huge Kate Bush fan and comparing her pronunciation with Emily Rose's is like dealing with two different languages,lol.
I'm British and yeah, she sounds incredibly American.
It's a quibble for me, and I think most people who even care. I wouldn't say it takes away from the experience significantly, but it doesn't add. It's just moments of "Hmm, that doesn't seem right".
And it's different to the abstraction of game mechanics - "How's he carrying all that ammo?". That's a video-game idiosyncrasy, and those are left at the door when you go to play a shooter. It's "what I do while playing and what I see in cutscenes don't quite coalesce". It's taking the narrative seriously and having this one contradiction, for lack of a better word. As such it's a compliment to their storytelling, because (at least to me) it is one of the few apparent gameplay/narrative melding flaws - Nathan Drake doesn't seem like a dude who would throw a grenade at a person's feet except when I'm controlling him.
I don't know, I actually feel like he's (for the most part) correct, but the flaws he points just don't bother me as much as him. I still love the games.
I finished my 1st playthrough on Hard and was wondering if the enemies on Normal difficulty are as difficult in terms of constantly spamming grenades to force you out of cover...seems like with Hard they're literally constantly throwing explosives that destroy your cover and are constantly flanking you
Fancy Clown
Member
I don't think they throw as many on normal
in the final game of any series any previous ethos does not need to be strictly adhered to...you can take more risks knowing that it is indeed the final game...which leads me to believe that Naughty Dog has plans to make a 5th Uncharted game
Springfoot
Member
Sure, I can see that. In my last post's edit, I do mention how it's odd that the dissonance criticism is only ever thrown at games over violence and not over stuff like the seagull shooing or dumpster diving in Bioshock Infinite or any of the myriad of tangential sidequests in RPGs that postpone saving the world from literal destruction.
In general I think Uncharted 4 walked a finer line than any of the previous titles simply because Naughty Dog wanted to cap off the series with an
upbeat family man ending
The previous Uncharted titles had a more fictionally stylized, larger than life Drake who was less grounded and more cavalier - someone closer to Harrison Ford's IJ and SW action heroes, neither of whom had successful family lives. Like a scrappier version of Daniel Craig's Bond character in Casino Royale and Vesper's assessment of him as a "...maladjusted young [man] who’d give little thought to sacrificing others...You know, former SAS types with easy smiles" - an outwardly charming character who played loose with life in general, both his own and that of others - not the character he needed to become for the wrap up in U4.
No probs - honestly, the harder difficulties on Uncharted become all about strategy and positioning first and foremost. You can get out of really hairy situations just by thinking in 3D - prioritise enemies in the right way (whether stealth or shooting), put Nate in the most subtle safe positions, knowing when and where to use grenades, knowing when and where to let your teammates take the hit/priority, etc.
On Crushing I've pulled off some damn badass stunts by following good in-the-moment tactics/strategies.
... But it's not open world and only 3 or 4 sections out of 30+ open up at all?
You should replay the game. A lot of things that bothered me about it on my initial normal-difficulty run I've come to really appreciate on my second Crushing run.
That said, I really don't get how you came to some of your conclusions in that post.
Good analysis - you can see the bolded very clearly in Uncharted: Drake's Fortune's opening scene. He's written very cocky, cavalier, even self-obsessed.
Throughout 1, 2 and 3 he grows into a more 'real' person. There is long-form character development here. Then in 4 he grows into what people might describe as 'adulthood' for the finale.
I'll put this in a lone post:
I know it's not a biggie for you, Alienous, but thought I'd chip in.
'Ludonarrative dissonance' has never really been an issue for me in Uncharted - but especially not in Uncharted 4. Even more so than in the other games, any level/act in Uncharted 4 always includes the hostile faction trying to kill the protagonist first - before the protagonist tries to kill them. Naughty Dog have made a point that you are shot at/hunted by the faction before you ever take a shot at them. This really hammers home that Nate isn't busting into a place and killing people - he's being hunted and his killing isn't a violent aggression - it's a push-back.
The first proper encounter in the game -
- directly highlights this. You don't have a gun, and if you are spotted, they will shoot you to death.
I can't think of a single level where the bolded above isn't true - except perhaps after you're marooned on
, but then you were just chased there by gun-wielding
goons, and obviously they're not going to stop trying to kill Nate once he's on-land. Even in
, the first time you meet Shoreline, they literally
. The precedent is set then - from then on, you can avoid some encounters entirely, but when the goons are right in your way, Nate/Sam know for a fact that the guys will kill them on sight. So they decide to hit first.
It makes perfect sense in every context.
And Doofy, if you want, a fair number of the encounters can be completely skipped with stealth, so...?
I know it's not a biggie for you, Alienous, but thought I'd chip in.
'Ludonarrative dissonance' has never really been an issue for me in Uncharted - but especially not in Uncharted 4. Even more so than in the other games, any level/act in Uncharted 4 always includes the hostile faction trying to kill the protagonist first - before the protagonist tries to kill them. Naughty Dog have made a point that you are shot at/hunted by the faction before you ever take a shot at them. This really hammers home that Nate isn't busting into a place and killing people - he's being hunted and his killing isn't a violent aggression - it's a push-back.
The first proper encounter in the game -
being on the run in Italy
I can't think of a single level where the bolded above isn't true - except perhaps after you're marooned on
Libertalia
Shoreline
Scotland
open fire on Nate/Sam the instant they see the guys (after you rappel down a cliff and find the dig gear), and Nate/Sam fight back
It makes perfect sense in every context.
And Doofy, if you want, a fair number of the encounters can be completely skipped with stealth, so...?
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Croshaw isn't a reviewer, he's a heckler who's 5 minutes of internet fame and relevance dried up years ago. There's nothing more pathetic than seeing someone berate another for failing to evolve and improve their work whilst using the exact same tired-old schtick that they've been peddling to diminishing returns since they started.
Finished it last night finally. Took my time with it since ND recommended that and I wasn't in a rush to finish the series since this is likely the last one we ever get. I think the overall package is my favorite out of all of them, but 2 is really close and better in some areas. I feel like the storytelling and lessons that they learned from TLOU make this pull ahead overall though.
Fantastic game. Makes me really look forward to the TLOU sequel.
Fantastic game. Makes me really look forward to the TLOU sequel.
Dude, chill out.
He is still very funny and enjoyable to watch, whether he's relevant or not doesn't matter.
And his Judging by the Cover series is awesome too. Man got a great sense of humor, you don't have to take him so seriously.
Wait until you get to Chapter 20. Been stuck for two days. Terrible design in that first area tbh. :/
I'm sure this has been discussed, but what are people's thoughts on:
jellies_two
Member
This evening Demo'd Vive and then uc4 to a few people who don't game much. Everyone tried VR only the best of the experiences on it, then we played around with the uc4 Madagascar driving part and some encounters. Friends left most wanting, and most impressed by .. Uc4. How blasé gaf gamers have become about vanilla state of the art games.
Calm down. There are times when he's entirely accurate - and he even says that Uncharted is a fantastic game that happens to be weighed down by it's own desire to be 'the final chapter' and repeating things that the series has already done.
He's also accurate in that Nate is increasingly coming across like a dick, and that Chapter 16 is just a wreck that shouldn't be here.
Not sure if I am stating the obvious here, and I was only on normal, but I found when I entered the ship where everyone starts spawning for the 2nd wave, including the 2 heavy chaps, that the route behind me was then blocked and I never had to deal with them until a later appearance. I did die after I entered the ship though and it re-loaded me inside the ship again.
Summer Haze
Banned
Gonna start a Crushing playthrough later with bullet time and unlimited ammo enabled. Can't wait.
Hnnnngh, bullet time while swinging with a grenade launcher.
Hnnnngh, bullet time while swinging with a grenade launcher.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
You have your opinion, and I have my mine.
What I do find odd though is how defensive some folks are to having their favourite internet critics/personalities judged. Just because I think the whole ZP thing is waaay past its sell-by date, and fails as both humour and criticism it doesn't mean I'm angry about it.
At worst I'm mildly ticked off at myself for wasting my time in the vain hope that Croshaw might eventually have upped his game. But, alas, I saw just the same old same old that I stopped finding amusing around ummm... 2010.
Meh, I'd only heard of Zero Punctuation in the last few months. I guess maybe I should spend more time sitting on the internet getting angry at things.
I feel like the clothes look really last gen in this game.(compared to everything else)
The only outfit that looked really good graphically was Nate's diving suit in the beginning of the game ,and his main outfit on the island.
I think clothes are still pretty close to TLoU quality.
The only outfit that looked really good graphically was Nate's diving suit in the beginning of the game ,and his main outfit on the island.
I think clothes are still pretty close to TLoU quality.
People that are invested in these characters care about chapter 16, it's one of the most important parts of the game (and series as a whole) in terms of narrative and character development.
I'm invested in the characters, and completely disagree. Sometimes a little mystery is just as important for character development - but even if you are the type that needs to be told everything, having chapter 16 decimate the pacing of the game is just odd.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
ZP has been around since 2007, an eternity in internet years, so excuse me for being more familiar with Ben's stuff than you are. The fact is that he is basically a heckler rather than a reviewer because his stuff is deliberately slanted towards negative comment as -by his own admittance- "bad is easier to make funny".
Enough derail though. Topic closed, with apologies for the distraction.
R_thanatos
Member
Way too harsh for no reason.
So what there was crash bandicoot for 1 level inside ? I really fail to see how easter eggs suddenly became negative points.
A little late to the party, but I finally finished this. I still think UC2 is the best in the series, but I think I enjoyed this one just as much as 3. The graphics were insane and I thought the few set-pieces that it had were stellar, but I was overall a little too disappointed with it.
I felt like the pacing was awful. I think it's weird how they started the game, and all the parts playing as young Nate were dreadful to me. UC3 did it way better with young Nate. The high was obviously
but after that the game takes a huge break.
Also, I assume I'm in the minority here, but fuck the car "platforming" and
. It was flat-out annoying to me trying to maneuver the vehicle and going from area to area just to fight a group of baddies and then rinse and repeat. The section where
was also boring for me. I think a lot of Uncharted's success comes from its linearity and pacing, and I wasn't really feeling it here.
And I know a lot of people hated UC2's last boss, but I would take it any day instead of UC4's one. I was getting Order 1886 vibes from this and kept failing at it (mostly my fault), making it anti-climactic.
I felt like the pacing was awful. I think it's weird how they started the game, and all the parts playing as young Nate were dreadful to me. UC3 did it way better with young Nate. The high was obviously
Chapter 11
Also, I assume I'm in the minority here, but fuck the car "platforming" and
semi-open world sections
you drive around the island using the boat with Sam
And I know a lot of people hated UC2's last boss, but I would take it any day instead of UC4's one. I was getting Order 1886 vibes from this and kept failing at it (mostly my fault), making it anti-climactic.
Don't apologize. Finally some PASSION.
CopperPuppy
Member
Oh, shit. Does this have its own thread yet? Title reveal?!
Lys Skygge
Member
No way. Nothing in Tomb Raider is a fraction as good as chapter
16. It was a much better origin story than I could have hoped for, and its placement in the game was masterful.
We already knew his real last name wasn't Drake from U3. I saw nothing wrong with this extra bit of fleshing out when and why they changed it.
Is it ever an option beyond this?
I felt like I never really saw another spot where it felt right. There are a few things they didn't really make a ton of use of in combat tbh (hand to hand, vertical cover, more rope hanging firefights, etc.) The focus on arenas sort of held back the ability to craft smaller sequences that focus on a specific moment.
This is why 8, 9, and 17 >>> the rest of the game, btw.
The thing that disappoints me most is actually that they removed the 'goon screaming while sliding to his death' thing.
Remember in the E3 jungle demo? When Nate kicks the guy while running, and the guy falls back onto a slope and slides away screaming to the drop below? I've done that so many times, hoping the guy will do that scream thing, but it never happens
I felt very similar after my first finish, but honestly, replaying it now on Crushing, I'm appreciating it more and more than I ever did first time. The back half is much easier to appreciate when you know exactly what's coming.
Fancy Clown
Member
The writing there stuck out so badly. Horribly on the nose dialogue (and the background story too actually), and then the last bit was both contrived and served to make Nate's character less dramatically interesting. Chapter 16 is the only bad part of the game.
Same.
Lys Skygge
Member
I completely disagree
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