Look, thats great, and I'm not trying to be a dick. But it's well established how abused welfare programs are. Not that they dont also do wonderful things for needy people. I just dont believe bureaucratic institutions should run them with forcibly taken money.
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United States Election: Nov 6, 2012 |OT| - Barack Obama Re-elected
- Thread starter Amir0x
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Look, thats great, and I'm not trying to be a dick. But it's well established how abused welfare programs are. Not that they dont also do wonderful things for needy people. I just dont believe bureaucratic institutions should run them with forcibly taken money.
This may be a bit off-topic, but I've been curious about it. I was only 10 during the 2000 election, so I had bigger things to worry about than presidential elections.
What exactly went on in Florida? Is it pretty much accepted now that Gore rightfully should've won but the GOP in charge down there 'recounted' until Bush won?
What exactly went on in Florida? Is it pretty much accepted now that Gore rightfully should've won but the GOP in charge down there 'recounted' until Bush won?
Earthstrike
Member
They've changed in proportion to tax-deductibility status! Does that count!
Gary Whitta
Member
I'll be glad to see Akin, Mourdock and those other stone-age fucks crash and burn tomorrow too, polls are looking ugly for them right now.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Citation? Because most studies I've read say the exact opposite
No, the point was to offer an example of people who reveal themselves to have no idea what they're talking about by acting like it's obvious that some obviously untrue thing X is a logical consequence of widespread belief Y, as if nobody who believed Y would have noticed. Creationists sometimes think they have these knock-down arguments against evolution that don't even need to be elaborated on, such as "if evolution is true, how are there still monkeys?", as if the rest of us just haven't noticed that there are still monkeys, and that, once we have become aware of monkeys, we'll instantly see that the theory of evolution is inconsistent with their existence. How are you not doing pretty much exactly the same kind of thing?
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
But you also recognize that they do wonderful things for needy people. Surely it's worth it for a few to abuse a system that otherwise saves people's well-being.
And the money isn't forcibly taken. Taxes are decided by society. You don't have to be a part of society if you don't want to.
Angelus Errare
Banned
One thing I love about GAF discussions...I always learn new latin phrases.
What would make private charities any less ripe for abuse than public programs? Why does the lack of government involvement make them magic?
Necromanti
Member
It wouldn't even matter because the donations would never be enough unless people donated the amount...that they'd be giving up to taxes anyway. Also, people abusing the system would only be a problem if there was any evidence of it being significantly widespread. (It's not.) I really hope no one proposes using anecdotal evidence over statistical data.
Would you like to back that up with some evidence?
Also, seriously, stop with the forcibly taken money crap. Again, if you want to have an ethical discussion on the entire foundation for society go make a thread. In this thread we've already decided it's ethical. Sorry.
To answer multiple posts, there are many, many charities that are well established and respected that survive because they get the most donations as trusted institutions. You know, kind of like how the free market works.
And if anyone needs me to google search welfare fraud/abuse for them then we're probably not going to ever get anywhere.
And if anyone needs me to google search welfare fraud/abuse for them then we're probably not going to ever get anywhere.
Gore got screwed over with poorly designed ballots that caused people to miscast their votes, and a recount that was stopped by the Supreme Court. Bush got screwed over by networks calling the State before the polls were fully closed.
Who won Florida, and who should have won Florida, are both questions we'll never truly know. It really just depends upon how you define the question.
I wonder.. if Obama were a hot dog and he got hungry.. would he eat himself?
Same question goes for Romney.
I know I would. And I'd wash myself down with a cool Budweiser.
Same question goes for Romney.
I know I would. And I'd wash myself down with a cool Budweiser.
NullPointer
Member
You aren't very good at this debating stuff are you?
If Obama was beer I would drink his foamy head.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Bring up a statistical statement without proper evidence, when called to proof it (As the onus is on you) you back away.
Typical internet debate tactics.
Karma Kramer
Banned
It's a fact that Gore won Florida but he conceded.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
That's not the point. We used to have much higher taxes. Now we don't. Your hypothesis is that if taxes go down, charitable donation will increase proportionately. This isn't a hypothetical, as we have history to examine. So is that accurate or not? Has it?
OriginofHysteria
Banned
It's statements like the bolded that make conservative-GAF posters defer from posting anything, because from your statement I'm reading "we've decided this for you, you're wrong."
Well at least I do what I can to offer my opinions and reasons for them.instead of just snide remarks that contribute nothing.
Necromanti
Member
Where's the evidence backing up your argument, though? People aren't going to agree with your argument if there's no proof of it (and proof of the opposite).
Home schools don't have debate programs.
rohlfinator
Member
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
But your reasons aren't backed up by any concrete data that you're able to share with us.
No amount of *wink* *wink* "come on guys, you know what I'm talking about." statements are going to change that.
If by "conservative-GAF" you mean "taxation is theft-GAF". I'm from Oklahoma and even I think that's pretty out there.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
That's great that those charities exist. Do you really think that if taxes didn't exist, more and more charities would spring up across the nation and be of a sufficient number as to cover everyone who runs into trouble? Do you think all of them would be just as efficient and lacking in corruption as the next?
NullPointer
Member
You're the one that whined about having to to present data to back up your very few assertions. Unless you sought a debate purely about one's feelings.
Assuming you're legitimately asking - Yup. Only "normal" substances forbidden for mormons are coffee, tea, alcohol, tobacco and the like.
j_k_redtail
Member
I wanted to quote this so it shows up again - it's an excellent program.
Only if he had a flat screen tv so he could watch himself doing it.
Romney already ate and regurgitated himself too many times to count.
I will apologize to everyone for a lack of links etc. to support my posts as I'm on my phone. Stopped in to browse and felt compelled to post, and now I'm trying to reply to rebuttals as I am not "trolling" as some stated.
I've studied this exact point before and was able to find support for what I'm saying.
Let me see what I can find and I'll be back.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1000771/
Excellent "docudrama" about the legal battle. Bush "won" but it was so close it triggered an automatic recount. The recount had Gore ahead. Lots of lawyering, obstruction and debate over how to "count".
Fascinating and depressing.
I'm talking about in this country. It is constitutional to tax people to provide services for fuck's sake. That is not a question. That means somewhere along the line we decided, in this society that it is ethical. This is a thread about the United States Elections, not a general libertarian or societal ethics thread. If we were in a general thread about the entire foundation of society, then sure have at that argument.
So, yes, he's wrong in this instance, because we're not going to suddenly as a fucking society decide oh welp, the entire foundation on which we exist is completely unethical. My bad. Let's burn the constitution and do whatever, I guess.
So that's why Romney looks freakishly young for his age.
Nothing wrong with charities, there are some excellent ones. But the free market optimizes for the charities that are best at marketing and picking appealing causes, not the actual most effective ones.
Edit:
All right, complaint rescinded. For now.
I'm.on my phone. Not trying to avoid posting supporting data. Hard to research and post this way. I apologize, I know its annoying.
Perfect, I love documentaries. Thanks.
My memory of the thing was that it was such a mess, I was happy to see Gore concede at the time. When you're talking about a difference of a few 100 votes in a state as populous as Florida, what you're really dealing with is a tie, because it is impossible to know who really won, and no matter how many times they recounted, it would never be definitive.
That being said, there was a lot of GOP funny business that year in florida, especially in terms of the way they designed the ballots to confuse people.
According to wikipedia
That's the way I remember it. In the end I think Bush got more actual votes in florida, but I think GOP cheating may have been responsible for that.
Taxation is the cost of doing business in a country.
You don't OWN all your pre-taxation income. It only passes through your hand for the sake of expediency (otherwise they'd have to hold all the money before passing to you your actual earnings minus the cost of doing business in the country).
A country provides you with services seen and unseen, and it does so at a progressive rate. Most of all, a nation provides you with socio-economic stability, so that you can actually get stuff done.
If you're not happy with that, then take your business elsewhere, and stop using the services that your nation provides.
In the meantime, it's the nation's collective prerogative of who they want to charge and how. Progressive system + welfare has shown to be a socio-economic winner for the most part.
Maybe you should stop forcibly wasting everybody's time because you're too lazy to go to your computer.
Since I've been tasked with proving people sometimes abuse welfare programs:
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/po...s_tough_on_welfare_abuse/srvc=home&position=2
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/po...s_tough_on_welfare_abuse/srvc=home&position=2
I love their shows on our healthcare system and the 2008 economic collapse. Those were really well done. Will check out this episode tomorrow
Youre doing it wrong. Anecdotal evidence doesnt convince anyone since we already know abuse happens, I/we just think its statistically insignificant
NEVADA
Polls close: 10 pm ET
Pundits say:
nyt said:
http://www.tnr.com/article/109309/nevada-2012
tnr said:
http://www.tnr.com/blog/electionate/109272/romneys-hopes-fade-in-nevada
Early voting: Nevada's early vote made up 72.4% of the 2008 electorate, up from 67.4%. Party ID info for the entire state isn't readily available, but we can get a pretty good idea of what's going on just by looking at Las Vegas's Clark County, since the rest of Nevada is bone-strewn wasteland in which only the buzzards thrive. In Clark, the Democratic party ID advantage is seven points less than 2008, a year in which he won by 12.
Voter ID: Nevada doesn't currently have a voter ID law, although they contemplated one in 2011.
Polls say: 538 gives Obama a 94% chance to win Nevada with a 4.7 point margin. Obama is about twice as likely to win Nebraska's second district as Romney is to win Nevada. RealClearPolitics gives the polling average as a decidedly more equivocal 2.8 lead.
Watch for: Anybody still watching. Nevada's going to be called as soon as the polls close unless Romney has an exceptionally good night. The question, really, is whether we'll still be paying attention by then, or whether an earlier state will have tipped us off already to an Obama victory.
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