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[Tuffty]

Boooo. Was fun while it lasted!

 

[Patriots7]

Yeah, that makes sense. Tyrions route would at least need an heir first which didn't seem likely. Though now I'm wondering about the Eyrie which Littlefinger could have easily controlled with Lysa. Guess Whiteharbor doesn't exist in the show. Eh, perhaps it's just hindsight and knowing things about Ramsay. Everything may just not blow up in Littlefingers face.

Tywin simply did not want Sansa to produce an heir that had the rightful claim to the North and Highgarden. If that plot wasn't unveiled, I don't think it would have forced Tywin's hand as quickly. He pretty much just assumed that the Bolton's would never secure the North without a Stark.

ShowPetey doesn't really have much of a plan for the North, or the Vale it seems.

Jaime's Riverlands storyline was disposable without a doubt. He's already had his character transformation and become a pretty decent guy. I don't need to be beaten over the head with it by watching him be a decent guy at a pointless siege with irrelevant characters for an entire season.

The Sand Snakes in the book were terrible. I have literally no recollection whatsoever what actually happened with them or what they did. Sand Snakes, Darkstar, Oakheart,...uninteresting characters unnecessarily introduced 5 books into a series to have uninteresting and in my case literally forgettable storylines.

So far, I prefer this season of the show to books 4 and 5, aside from Barristan and Missandei/Grey Worm, and all the Comic Sans in the world won't change that.

Pretty sure Oakheart was introduced as the only Kingsguard with honor that didn't abuse Sansa In the first book.

 

[Pyramid head]

Jaime's Riverlands storyline was disposable without a doubt. He's already had his character transformation and become a pretty decent guy. I don't need to be beaten over the head with it by watching him be a decent guy at a pointless siege with irrelevant characters for an entire season.

The Sand Snakes in the book were terrible. I have literally no recollection whatsoever what actually happened with them or what they did. Sand Snakes, Darkstar, Oakheart,...uninteresting characters unnecessarily introduced 5 books into a series to have uninteresting and in my case literally forgettable storylines.

So far, I prefer this season of the show to books 4 and 5, aside from Barristan and Missandei/Grey Worm, and all the Comic Sans in the world won't change that.

Jaime went through a transformation, then the show decided he should be a rapist to balance him back out.

There was a lot of dull stuff in books 4 and 5, and so far this series feels like it's keeping most of it while omitting the plots which actually interested me.

 

[Real Hero]

I don't get calling Jaime's book 4 plot disposable. At some point I wonder what people even like about these books.

 

[Ratrat]

Tywin simply did not want Sansa to produce an heir that had the rightful claim to the North and Highgarden. If that plot wasn't unveiled, I don't think it would have forced Tywin's hand as quickly. He pretty much just assumed that the Bolton's would never secure the North without a Stark.

Forgot about that too. I won't argue the Boltons aren't the quickest way to get Sansa there at least.

I don't get calling Jaime's book 4 plot disposable. At some point I wonder what people even like about these books.

Agreed. Throwing out the Riverlands which house a number of important characters from previous seasons for a completely illogical detour, which is bound to end in disaster is not an upgrade.

Edit: Why couldn't they just have Jaime deliver the Mountains skull and invite Trystane and Myrcella to Kings Landing only to have the Trystane assassination uncovered?

 

[NeoGiff]

Who is this hack fraud GRRM anyway? He's far worse than D&D anyway, that's for sure!

 

[Moff]

I don't get calling Jaime's book 4 plot disposable. At some point I wonder what people even like about these books.

Jaime's book plot was among the more enjoyable ones in AFFC/ADWD, but that really doesn't say much. At least i can't remember any other plot from the first three books that was worse. Dany in ACOK maybe?

I still think it's a weird choice for that picture to show the differences in Quality between the show and the book, the Jaime arc wasnt especially good in the books and it would have made for very bad TV, and the sand snakes were called like that in the book, too as far as I know, so I don't understand why they would make fun of that.

 

[GordonHalfman]

Yeah I hate this whole "X is just filler, Y is pointless, Z only exists to move A to B" line of reasoning. Like some peoples memories of the series is going to be something like "so Dany came to Westeros and punched some ice dragons, and oh yeah before that some filler happened."

 

[Ratrat]

Jaime's views and place within the Kings Guard.
Jaime embracing his role as a leader/shows surprising competence.
Jaime breaking away from Cersei/deciding to mentor Tommen and actually serve the realm.
Jaime confronted by Brienne.

Totally disposable.

I wouldn't argue that the tv series needed to do these. But suggesting he went through no development and nothing of worth was lost by throwing everything out is ridiculous.

 

[Ganzlinger]

I don't get calling Jaime's book 4 plot disposable. At some point I wonder what people even like about these books.

Same. I must be one of the few who actually enjoyed every book entirely.

 

[Lothar]

Yes, if you cut even more characters/reduce them to background characters you could more fully adapt a handful of characters source material.

Obviously we all know that's not going to happen, even without including the factors of a TV show outside of the creative, chiefly that you have these actors signed to contracts to appear in your show, you can't not use them.

No one told Yara's actress about these contracts.

Ehh, there's way too many Pod/Brienne scenes. Nothing would be hurt by taking one of those scenes. Ramsay was in last episode plenty. He didn't need a pointless sex scene. Then just remove the Jaime going to Dorne, Jaime asking Bronn how he wants to die, and Jaime in Dorne fighting random bad guys scene and replace those with some meaningful Jaime scenes in King's Landing.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Dorne and the Iron Islands really suffer from having a bunch of characters that come off as forced attempts at edginess. Someone earlier mentioned how a lot of those characters would fit perfectly in a shonen manga.

True enough. Fucking Darkstar.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

I think in Jamie's case it is a purely budgeting move.

They had to show Dorne this season. This arc allows them to cut out the budget needed to go to Riverlands and have extra characters (major actors) along those lines.

 

[David Incorporated Esq.]

Jaime's views and place within the Kings Guard.
Jaime embracing his role as a leader/shows surprising competence.
Jaime breaking away from Cersei/deciding to mentor Tommen and actually serve the realm.
Jaime confronted by Brienne.

Totally disposable.

I wouldn't argue that the tv series needed to do these. But suggesting he went through no development and nothing of worth was lost by throwing everything out is ridiculous.

Lots of things are going to be left out from the books, "disposable" means only that parts of the story can be retold in different, shorter ways and still end at the same outcome. I don't think anyone is saying that even the books should have done without these parts.

Jaime suffered the most, though, his story in the books is much better than in the show.

 

[Ratrat]

Lots of things are going to be left out from the books, "disposable" means only that parts of the story can be retold in different, shorter ways and still end at the same outcome. I don't think anyone is saying that even the books should have done without these parts.

Jaime suffered the most, though, his story in the books is much better than in the show.

I had a different reading of:

Jaime's Riverlands storyline was disposable without a doubt. He's already had his character transformation and become a pretty decent guy. I don't need to be beaten over the head with it by watching him be a decent guy at a pointless siege with irrelevant characters for an entire season.

but who knows. If they can accomplish, and it's not impossible, all the necessary story beats and development for him in Dorne than thats fine.

 

[Violet_0]

Ramsay was in last episode plenty. He didn't need a pointless sex scene

I beg to differ
well, I suppose I'd have been okay with Ramsay not being in that scene

 

[Dusk Soldier]

I really do hope the next episode explains why there isn't an army of assassins or just a regular army marching for Winterfell to seize Sansa right now.

I mean, she was on the run from Cersei, who suspects her to be a cog in the murder of Joffrey. There's no way Cersei finds out Sansa is alive and to be wed to Ramsay and is like "meh, whatever, I moved on."

I can accept Sansa can apparently get married again because Tyrion turned out to be a traitor, even if nobody knows they never consummated the marriage and are technically still married. I'll suspend my disbelief and go "okay, as a kinslayer, Sansa is excused from her promise to the Gods as far as Tyrion is concerned." But I won't accept that Cersei is just fine with Sansa happily skipping around Winterfell.

I also won't accept that Winterfell is crawling with people, most of which are smallfolk and nobody has bothered to tell Cersei that Sansa Stark has reappeared with Littlefinger.

That hole they've written themselves into with this storyline pretty much hinges on Cersei's response to Littlefinger on this in the next episode. But I still feel there should have already been a bunch of Lannister men marching to Winterfell to have her head for a traitor. Or at least a royal command to Bolton to take her head and forbid the marriage. While it would make perfect sense of Tywin to forgive Sansa her crimes to reinforce the Bolton control as Wardens of the North, Cersei is way to shortsighted and spiteful to realise this and will want Sansa dead regardless.

I'm just not seeing it. When it's revealed that Sansa is in Winterfell, there's no reason for Cersei to pin it on Littlefinger.

Sansa turning up in Winterfell after fleeing the Jofferey's murder scene makes logical sense. And she has no real reason to suspect Littlefinger left the Vale to collect Sansa regardless.

Cersei has no army to march into the North. And even if she did she wouldn't be able to get them through Moat Cailin.

She might try to smuggle assassins into the North, similar to what she's doing with Myrcella. But that's not guaranteed to work, and she doesn't know about Sansa yet.

You need to wait until she finds out about Sansa, before you can say her response is out of character. We don't even know if she'll still be in a position of real power when she finds out.

 

[Incandenza]

Are the Freys showing up this season? You'd think they would arrive at Winterfell before the wedding if so.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Are the Freys showing up this season? You'd think they would arrive at Winterfell before the wedding if so.

I'm betting they're out of the show for now. Wouldn't want to make it too complicated, right?

 

[Ikael]

The problem with Jaime's TV arc is not the plot deviation per se, but rather his character evolution, which has been broken since Cersei's rape scene.

Yes, Jaime's book sheanigans at Riverrun are almost unfilmable, and not that important in the big political plot of Westeros, but it is extremely relevant in terms of character development: it is when you start to see how Jaime has become a different men thanks to Brienne, and you see how he wants to develope different areas of his persona, going beyond his original identity.

The problem is that I don't see these characters developments happening in Dorne instead, since Sand Snakes are not exactly conductive to self introspection, identity evolution nor negotiation skills. My only hope is that he ends up traversing this psychological road, albeit by other means (Doran Martell acting as an example for him, perhaps?).

 

[schlongdog]

Are we still calling it a rape scene even though D&D said it wasn't?

 

[NeoGiff]

Are we still calling it a rape scene even though D&D said it wasn't?

Yes, because it is a rape scene.

 

[Szeth]

Are we still calling it a rape scene even though D&D said it wasn't?

Are we still talking about it even though no one cares anymore and still loves Jaime?

 

[cartoon_soldier]

The problem with Jaime's TV arc is not the plot deviation per se, but rather his character evolution, which has been broken since Cersei's rape scene.

Yes, Jaime's book sheanigans at Riverrun are almost unfilmable, and not that important in the big political plot of Westeros, but it is extremely relevant in terms of character development: it is when you start to see how Jaime has become a different men thanks to Brienne, and you see how he wants to develope different areas of his persona, going beyond his original identity.

The problem is that I don't see these characters developments happening in Dorne instead, since Sand Snakes are not exactly conductive to self introspection, identity evolution nor negotiation skills. My only hope is that he ends up traversing this psychological road, albeit by other means (Doran Martell acting as an example for him, perhaps?).

I think the character development can happen. Bronn bites the dust. Jamie reaches the castle and realizes Myrcella is in no danger from Doran. Even in the voyage there, you had the Tarth bit and Jamie's expression at that time. When he says he wants to die in the arms of the woman he loves that did not scream Cersei to me.

I think we are jumping the gun here thinking Jamie will not have the similar kind of character development he did in the books.

 

[Moff]

it is a rape scene because it was done badly, the actors and the director said it was difficult to film. as far as i know it was not supposed to be rape in the script.
no one acknowledged in the show that is was rape ever since, so the show does not treat jaime as a rapist, in show westeros Jaime is not a rapist, although we have seen him as one.

 

[TheNamesPlissken]

What if Baelish tells Cersei the Sansa in winterfell is a fake in this upcoming episode?

 

[Aiii]

I'm just not seeing it. When it's revealed that Sansa is in Winterfell, there's no reason for Cersei to pin it on Littlefinger.

Sansa turning up in Winterfell after fleeing the Jofferey's murder scene makes logical sense. And she has no real reason to suspect Littlefinger left the Vale to collect Sansa regardless.

Cersei has no army to march into the North. And even if she did she wouldn't be able to get them through Moat Cailin.

She might try to smuggle assassins into the North, similar to what she's doing with Myrcella. But that's not guaranteed to work, and she doesn't know about Sansa yet.

You need to wait until she finds out about Sansa, before you can say her response is out of character. We don't even know if she'll still be in a position of real power when she finds out.

Cersei has the city watch, plenty of people that can go up North, they're not enemies so she hardly needs thousands to get this one girl.

But my problem is with your final line, Cersei already knows Sansa is there. What? Sansa Stark suddenly reappears after going missing for months, and nobody is gonna go "Oh, hey, Sansa Stark is alive and well in Winterfell!" The second she appeared in Winterfell, word would have gotten around Westeros. Had Winterfell been empty, bar a handful of Bolton's men, sure, but that place is crawling with regular smallfolk and traders will be coming and going, so even if nobody in Winterfell got word out, some of those would have.

I just find it hard to believe that in the time it took Littlefinger to get from Winterfell to Kings Landing, nobody sent a raven and Cersei didn't flip her lid.

 

[schlongdog]

Yes, because it is a rape scene.

Even though the writers and the actors in the scene say it wasn't intended as a rape scene?

"it wasn’t a rape, and it was never intended to be.”

 

[Pyramid head]

Are we still calling it a rape scene even though D&D said it wasn't?

In that Q&A session they did recently, they said it was. When asked why they included a rape scene and what did they think it contributed to Jaime's character, they made no effort to correct the woman asking the question on the subject of whether it was rape or not and simply said that people were right to be disturbed by it and that it was an absolutely brutal scene. They said that it was something they felt Jaime would do at that moment in time because, although his arc has taken him on a redemptive path, you have to remember this is still a guy who pushed a kid out of a window.

 

[Lothar]

Even though the writers and the actors in the scene say it wasn't intended as a rape scene?

"it wasn’t a rape, and it was never intended to be.”

Yes, because it is a rape scene.

It doesn't matter what it was intended. It matters what it was.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Even though the writers and the actors in the scene say it wasn't intended as a rape scene?

"it wasn’t a rape, and it was never intended to be.”

As did the director. It's pretty obvious it was edited to look like a rape scene, and I place that solely at David and Dan's feet. The way the director reacted to the situation made it very clear he had no idea what happened, IMO.

And then it was never addressed on the show. Another shock scene for nothing more than shock. Hence why I'm not a fan of them.

 

[NeoGiff]

Even though the writers and the actors in the scene say it wasn't intended as a rape scene?

"it wasn’t a rape, and it was never intended to be.”

I thankfully wasn't around here when the episode aired, and I don't want to reopen that can of worms, so I'll just reiterate this:

It was a rape scene.

 

[Kain]

Not this shittu again, please

Just hate on Darkstar or something. For he is of the night.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Not this shittu again, please

Just hate on Darkstar or something. For he is of the night.

I'll bet Darkstar wouldn't have raped anyone. The night is all about consent.

 

[-griffy-]

I think I'd rather people complain about the one Sand Snakes scene some more rather than open this can of worms again.

Someone post the spear throw gif so we can dissect it some more.

 

[NeoGiff]

I'm formally backing out.

 

[crimzonflame]

Do you think that anyone will get a happy ending when it's all done?

 

[schlongdog]

I guess I'll just choose to go with what the writers & actors intended seeing as how drastically it would change my perception of the character. A poor directional decision won't be the difference between me despising a character and really liking him.

But that's just me!

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Do you think that anyone will get a happy ending when it's all done?

Maybe Tyrion if he can resolve his "issue" that popped up a few episodes ago.

 

[Kain]

I'm formally backing out.

You were just setting the trap to post that gif, didn't you? ò_ó

 

[NeoGiff]

You were just setting the trap to post that gif, didn't you? ò_ó

...Yes.

At least I know that if a discussion isn't going my way, I can back out in style. You can't dispute with Face Tyrell.

 

[Atraveller]

Do you think that anyone will get a happy ending when it's all done?

I mean the show does like nudity and sex a lot...

 

[Kain]

...Yes.

At least I know that if a discussion isn't going my way, I can back out in style. You can't dispute with Face Tyrell.

Olly approves

 

[Woody Invincible]

Book Jaime is a whole lot of nothing, all in service of two incredible dialogue scenes with Blackfish and Edmure. I miss that dialogue, but I totally get why it had to go, especially given how much less prominent the Tullys have been on the show.

Yep, book Jaime arc was worth it just to get more exposition with the Edmure situation.

 

[NeoGiff]

Are there any more iconic lines coming up that could be changed by D&D? We've already had the hat trick of "The Lannisters send their regards", "Your shistaaaaa", and "Olly, bring me my sword".

Anything left to RUIN???!!

Spoiler

I'm joking, obviously.

Edit: Wait, I've got one. Doran Martell will make his speech, until the amazing climax - "Flame and gore."

 

[biosnake20]

Hopefully the Sand Snakes will be less cringeworthy next episode. Can't wait to see more Doran.

 

[Citizen_Insane]

Is Edmure even alive in the show?

 

[Basileus777]

Is Edmure even alive in the show?

We haven't heard anything about him. Or the Blackfish.

 

[Citizen_Insane]

Makes you wonder if they forgot or are just choosing to ignore it completely.

 

[bodyofanamerican]

As did the director. It's pretty obvious it was edited to look like a rape scene, and I place that solely at David and Dan's feet. The way the director reacted to the situation made it very clear he had no idea what happened, IMO.

And then it was never addressed on the show. Another shock scene for nothing more than shock. Hence why I'm not a fan of them.

Yep. And their love of shock value does not bode well for certain characters in this week's episode. UGH.