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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 5 - Sundays on HBO

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Asami208

Banned
Oh this is definitely a case of quorting controversy. If you listen to what everyone involved was saying before the episode aired, including Sophie, they new full well that this would be a decision that A LOT of people wouldn't like.

So at least it's not a case of them being astoundingly clueless, like with the Jamie/Cersei scene last season.
 

Asami208

Banned
How did you figure all of that out? The episode literally ended on that scene.

Because every possible future plot-scenario/character arc that I can think of could have been accomplished with out resorting to the "rape as plot device" cliché YET AGAIN!! And this isn't even a case of "well it was like that in the book," that's one thing. Here, they deliberately CHOSE to make this change.
 

foxtrot3d

Banned
Im also a bit perplexed about how Loras' boy toy where is also suddenly his squire. We've seen that he's a brothel whore who works for LF and even during this season seemed to help LF run the brothel. Why would Loras, heir to Highgarde, take a low born brothel whore as a squire?

EDIT:

I want to point out that I'm not against the dude testifying against Loras but the sudden need to make him a squire.
 
Im also a bit perplexed about how Loras' boy toy where is also suddenly his squire. We've seen that he's a brothel whore who works for LF and even during this season seemed to help LF run the brothel. Why would Loras, heir to Highgarde, take a low born brothel whore as a squire?
Wasn't the point that he was lying?
 

Ratrat

Member
Was it? I guess that makes sense but it didn't seem like Loras took issue with the squire part but the whole fucking. Like wouldnt it be easy to prove he wasn't a squire? Like super easy?
Exactly. He's a whore from a whore house who got the information of the birthmark from a female whore.

Or he's a squire to Highgardens heir that eluded everyone and is the only one to ever see Loras naked.

I also found it strange the Faith guys didn't arrest Littlefinger after he brought up business with Cersei. We know they don't take shit from her. They don't take shit from the King, Queen and High Septon.
 
Was it? I guess that makes sense but it didn't seem like Loras took issue with the squire part but the whole fucking. Like wouldnt it be easy to prove he wasn't a squire? Like super easy?
I don't know. It struck me as strange too, but Loras whole rage at him lying made me think he really was with that.
 
A lot of the discussion on the Sansa issue is missing the point (in my opinion). As others have said, this is a show with countless acts of cruelty both physical and sexual. We have seen various forms of rape occur on screen whether it be between already existing couples, newlyweds, or strangers in the act of "conquering." No matter what the context, no one disagrees that rape is a despicable act and will cause viewer outrage.

The issue with the scene last night between Sansa and Ramsay is an issue of character development. Sansa has spent 4 seasons being the victim. In this 5th season and with the direction of her character arc, most of us believed that Sansa would be coming into her own and taking on more control in her life and in the "game of thrones." Last night's bed room scene was completely counteractive to that.

Within her character's arc, it would have made more "sense" for Sansa and Ramsay to arrive in the bedroom just exactly as they did, for Sansa to initially show hesitation, but to overcome her fear by applying the lessons that she's learned from all her past tragedies. I think some viewers/readers expected Sansa to at least fake being into it after getting past that initial hesitation in order to bait Ramsay into placing his trust in her, which she would ultimately use to betray and overthrow the Boltons when justice finally comes.

Instead, Sansa once again played the victim in that scene. And the way it played out, she was the victim. There is no questioning that. The point is, it shouldn't have been written like that, with her as the victim, again.

It's also worth noting that even though this occurred, Sansa may still trick the Boltons and be an instrument in their downfall. I think most of us just expected it to ultimate begin with that scene. The show may still take that route. I think a lot of us were just expecting the show to really put it into motion with that scene and they didn't.
 

Asami208

Banned
A lot of the discussion on the Sansa issue is missing the point (in my opinion). As others have said, this is a show with countless acts of cruelty both physical and sexual. We have seen various forms of rape occur on screen whether it be between already existing couples, newlyweds, or strangers in the act of "conquering." No matter what the context, no one disagrees that rape is a despicable act and will cause viewer outrage.

The issue with the scene last night between Sansa and Ramsay is an issue of character development. Sansa has spent 4 seasons being the victim. In this 5th season and with the direction of her character arc, most of us believed that Sansa would be coming into her own and taking on more control in her life and in the "game of thrones." Last night's bed room scene was completely counteractive to that.

Within her character's arc, it would have made more "sense" for Sansa and Ramsay to arrive in the bedroom just exactly as they did, for Sansa to initially show hesitation, but to overcome her fear by applying the lessons that she's learned from all her past tragedies. I think some viewers/readers expected Sansa to at least fake being into it after getting past that initial hesitation in order to bait Ramsay into placing his trust in her, which she would ultimately use to betray and overthrow the Boltons when justice finally comes.

Instead, Sansa once again played the victim in that scene. And the way it played out, she was the victim. There is no questioning that. The point is, it shouldn't have been written like that, with her as the victim, again.

It's also worth noting that even though this occurred, Sansa may still trick the Boltons and be an instrument in their downfall. I think most of us just expected it to ultimate begin with that scene. The show may still take that route. I think a lot of us were just expecting the show to really put it into motion with that scene and they didn't.


There's also the problem of it shouldn't take her being raped in order to do that. She's already gone through plenty of terrible shit that should have started her down that journey. It takes THIS to make her grow/change. It's predictable and cliché in the worst way and the show has already done the "rape as character motivation" thing too many times as it is. And if it turns out that THIS is what makes Theon "snap out of it," I swear to God I'm going to throw something.

It'd still be rather squicky, but having Sansa use her sexuality in order to lure Ramsay into a false sense of security (kind of like Margaery played Joffrey like a fiddle a few seasons back) would have at least made sense and fit in with her character growth. She'd be the one playing him. Hell Cersei even told her that this could be an effective strategy seasons ago. Instead, they do this, which is FAR less interesting.
 
Was it? I guess that makes sense but it didn't seem like Loras took issue with the squire part but the whole fucking. Like wouldnt it be easy to prove he wasn't a squire? Like super easy?

Worst part about pretending to be a squire is that a Loras' squire probably would have actually seen him naked outside of a sexual context. Squires help dress and bathe and stuff. So this guy chose the one lie that actually makes his knowledge of Loras' birthmark completely useless as a form of evidence.
 
Yeah, i'm really close to dropping it. If i didn't read the books i would have already dropped it some time ago.

That was me around the end of season 2. It gets easier to watch though when you come to the realization that it's not by any means a great show and it never will be, but it's still entertaining in its own stupid little way. Of course the constant praise from critics will baffle the hell out of you.
 
Normally I just passively read this thread and shake my head at some of the ridiculous whining in here.

But if you guys really think that scene was rape, you have a very skewed view about that matter.
 

Nokagi

Unconfirmed Member
Was it? I guess that makes sense but it didn't seem like Loras took issue with the squire part but the whole fucking. Like wouldnt it be easy to prove he wasn't a squire? Like super easy?

Didn't Littlefinger send him to squire for Loras a few seasons back?
 

bengraven

Member
Oh hey guys, was GOT on last night...lol

Him hitter her over "I hate the Hound" is great.

Fantastic scene I thought.

I'd seriously consider buying one and getting into the poultry business.

I'm working on the logistics. I may put an actual rooster on the shirt and let the "cock" be funny on it's own. Maybe a cartoon of Tyrion holding a rooster...

How did Marg get arrested so easily with the Kingsguard not doing anything?

They did jump forward, but the real answer is "story".

Or you could argue that they are more loyal to Cersei.

Ok from now on I'm pretending Dorne was cut and the Greyjoy-Jaime-Bronn Storyline is a thing:


  • Balon Greyjoy remains as the last of the five kings that is either alive or a direct threat to the Lannisters.
  • Cersei is afraid of another full-scale Greyjoy Rebellion so she sends Jaime to assassinate Balon.
  • Jaime obviously can't do this alone so he recruits Bronn,
  • The two get to the Iron Islands to find that Balon died coincidentally at the same time Daario returned.
  • Jaime and Bronn run into Victarion, who is pissed and has a fight scene with Bronn. Daario breaks up the fight and takes Jaime and Bronn.
  • Mads and Bronn have an amazing scene together with wine and prostitutes. Bronn gains Daario's' trust.
  • Jaime meets Yara and they have some interesting scenes.
  • Kingsmoot happens, it's awesome.
  • Daario declares that the Greyjoys will take Casterly Rock now that Tywin is dead and secretly plans to use Jaime to convince the remaining forces to surrender.
  • Victarion is sent to Meereen with Bronn. Daario knows Vic will betray him and tells Bronn to kill Vic once they have Dany.
  • Jaime finds out about Cersei's infidelity somehow.
  • Yara gives Jaime the chance to escape. Jaime refuses and decides to go to Casterly Rock with Daario as revenge against Cersei. Goes against the redemption arc but hey it's better than fucking Dorne.
  • Snoop Dogg is cast as Moqorro. He goes on an amazing journey with Bronn and Vic.

Holy shit this would have been great and paralleled Theon's story very well.

I did fix a few things to make the story more true to the books.

Did everyone in here love that Bronn's reaction to the Sand Snakes mirrored the thread's? "Oh for fuck's sake." I can't tell if that was self aware or just general Bronn-ness. I feel like it was a bit self aware.

When that happened I swear to god that instant I was thinking "someone put this in here because they knew the fans are thinking this".

Your wish...

0hcquE8.gif


...is my command.

OH JESUS CHRIST STOP MY RIBS...

Oh, fuck. This rape is all we are going to hear for a while isn't it?

Sadly it is.

And I don't even want to get into it. It felt a lot like rape and people more knowledgable than me will call it rape. But I also think Sansa was willing to just get it over with because she was terrified but she "knew" she "had to do it" because of cultural reasons ("women must submit to their husbands", etc). It feels hazy to me because I don't think it feels 100% like rape, but I don't want to go there because I don't want to make people think I'm saying it was consensual...? Does that make sense?

Okay, let me rephrase it: "I don't want assholes on the internet saying 'ben graven thinks sansa wasn't rape'".
 
Exactly. He's a whore from a whore house who got the information of the birthmark from a female whore.

Or he's a squire to Highgardens heir that eluded everyone and is the only one to ever see Loras naked.

I also found it strange the Faith guys didn't arrest Littlefinger after he brought up business with Cersei. We know they don't take shit from her. They don't take shit from the King, Queen and High Septon.

They haven't acted against Cersei yet. Right now they are still working with her, it's not the time to arrest Littlefinger.

Worst part about pretending to be a squire is that a Loras' squire probably would have actually seen him naked outside of a sexual context. Squires help dress and bathe and stuff. So this guy chose the one lie that actually makes his knowledge of Loras' birthmark completely useless as a form of evidence.
This is a good point.

That was me around the end of season 2. It gets easier to watch though when you come to the realization that it's not by any means a great show and it never will be, but it's still entertaining in its own stupid little way. Of course the constant praise from critics will baffle the hell out of you.
Seasons 1 and 4 were good television. The rest has been pretty meh with some flashes of being better.
 

foxtrot3d

Banned
Worst part about pretending to be a squire is that a Loras' squire probably would have actually seen him naked outside of a sexual context. Squires help dress and bathe and stuff. So this guy chose the one lie that actually makes his knowledge of Loras' birthmark completely useless as a form of evidence.

Wow I didn't even think about this as well, like Egg repeatedly helps Dunk bathe.
 

Nokagi

Unconfirmed Member
Actually, they have shown Loras' boy whore squiring for him in season 3 I think. It's a very short scene in some garden.

Yeah. This from a season 3 episode 5 recap "Cersei is determined to prove the Tyrells are untrustworthy and enlists Littlefinger‘s help, which, given Littlefinger, comes in the form of a sex worker-disguised-as-squire who gets Loras into bed and saying things he shouldn’t mention, like that he’s engaged."
 

Ratrat

Member
They haven't acted against Cersei yet. Right now they are still working with her, it's not the time to arrest Littlefinger.
Still a bit weird considering they destroyed his establishment while arresting and murdering his patrons. You'd think peddling boy whores would earn him sword in the neck. I mean, they have what they want from her already.
It surely wasn't a shock to Sansa that she'd be consummating the marriage right?
She didnt know much about Ramsay before or that Theon would be watching. You don't think the whole setup was calculated to humiliate and debase her?
 
There's also the problem of it shouldn't take her being raped in order to do that. She's already gone through plenty of terrible shit that should have started her down that journey. It takes THIS to make her grow/change. It's predictable and cliché in the worst way and the show has already done the "rape as character motivation" thing too many times as it is. And if it turns out that THIS is what makes Theon "snap out of it," I swear to God I'm going to throw something.

It'd still be rather squicky, but having Sansa use her sexuality in order to lure Ramsay into a false sense of security (kind of like Margaery played Joffrey like a fiddle a few seasons back) would have at least made sense and fit in with her character growth. She'd be the one playing him. Hell Cersei even told her that this could be an effective strategy seasons ago. Instead, they do this, which is FAR less interesting.

Exactly. She has been through horrendous things. Watching her father get beheaded. Being physically and mentally abused by Joffrey. Hearing of essentially her entire familys' deaths (so she thinks) from afar. Littlefinger "rescuing" her from King's Landing served as a new chapter for her. A chance for her to escape it all and become a new woman. She started that when she lied to the Lords of the Vale. She continued that when she agreed to go to Winterfell and marry Ramsay, voluntarily. She continued it when she greeted the Boltons warmly. And when she told Miranda she wasn't scared, it looked like the pieces were coming into place. And then...Victim again. Obviously the way it played out, she was the victim, but it shouldn't have played out that way from a writing perspective. As you said, there would be an amazing irony to seeing her use her sexuality and cunning to manipulate one of the Game of Thrones' most "evil" characters and cause his downfall. And it may still happen but they really missed an opportunity and took a step backwards with her character development by doing it this way.

As with Theon, I do think this scene works, but still could have worked if Sansa had acted "into" it. Her could have been forced to watch and even though she acts into it, he could have been terrified knowing what Ramsay is capable of doing to her. And that would be what "wakes him up." Knowing that it's not just him who's being mistreated now, it's someone he formerly knew and to some extent, cared about.
 
Still a bit weird considering they destroyed his establishment while arresting and murdering his patrons. You'd think peddling boy whores would earn him sword in the neck. I mean, they have what they want from her already.

If they act against Cersei early, she could still work with the Tyrells to put down the Sparrows. The High Sparrow isn't stupid, he can wait to the right time.
 
Worst part about pretending to be a squire is that a Loras' squire probably would have actually seen him naked outside of a sexual context. Squires help dress and bathe and stuff. So this guy chose the one lie that actually makes his knowledge of Loras' birthmark completely useless as a form of evidence.
Bad writing.. :/
 

Kain

Member
OK, just one thing: how in the fuck can they not put "SUNSPEAR" or something in Dorne? Why Dorne? Dorne is not a city. Meereen is a city and they got it right, why not Sunspear or Water gardens?

Nitpicking or whatever, these little stupid completely avoidable fuckups piss me off.

Later I'll post stuff regarding the actual chapter.
 

TTG

Member
Because every possible future plot-scenario/character arc that I can think of could have been accomplished with out resorting to the "rape as plot device" cliché YET AGAIN!! And this isn't even a case of "well it was like that in the book," that's one thing. Here, they deliberately CHOSE to make this change.

Well, since you haven't thought of any reasonable thing, without knowing the writers' intent either, surely it must not exist.


These diatribes make me wonder how you(in general, not the quote specifically) experience fiction. I had a neat straightforward narrative all set up about how things were suppose to go, you went and surprised me! *Throws book across room*
 
These fuckers who make this show must get a kick out of being gross. With the reputation this show has (well deserved) they don't need to be ending episodes with drawn out rape horror scenes. Especially for a character who has been through this kind of humiliating shit over and over already.

It never even comes to anything! No story ever proceeds in a straight line on this show, and it's shown itself to unconcerned with dealing with the effects of rape over and over again. It just happens, and then the story proceeds as it would have if it never occurred.

So D+D obviously must like doing rape scenes. They just throw them in whenever they get a chance, or if there hasn't been one in a while, they make one up.
 

Ratrat

Member
If they act against Cersei early, she could still work with the Tyrells to put down the Sparrows. The High Sparrow isn't stupid, he can wait to the right time.
I was under the impression that they are just religious fanatics. If throwing the kingdom into chaos later on was a tactical move on their part then that's interesting. But that's more speculation/theory.
 

Zabka

Member
There's also the problem of it shouldn't take her being raped in order to do that. She's already gone through plenty of terrible shit that should have started her down that journey. It takes THIS to make her grow/change. It's predictable and cliché in the worst way and the show has already done the "rape as character motivation" thing too many times as it is. And if it turns out that THIS is what makes Theon "snap out of it," I swear to God I'm going to throw something.

It'd still be rather squicky, but having Sansa use her sexuality in order to lure Ramsay into a false sense of security (kind of like Margaery played Joffrey like a fiddle a few seasons back) would have at least made sense and fit in with her character growth. She'd be the one playing him. Hell Cersei even told her that this could be an effective strategy seasons ago. Instead, they do this, which is FAR less interesting.

I don't see why you'd get angry about it when Theon went through the same situation in the books.

I find it interesting that people are angry about what should happen and what makes sense when GoT/ASOIAF has never been about that.
 

allftw

Neo Member
Watching Sansa's bath scene I realized how clueless the writers are with where they want to take the story from season to season. I mean why did they dye Sansa's hair last season if literally everyone they crossed paths with afterward figured out or already knew her identity.

The Dorne scenes have been terrible and this episode's fight was even worse. Everything from their entrance to the Gardens to Areo's stupid move at the end were ridiculous.

Aging up Tommen has been a terrible idea so far because the king letting her queen get taken away like that makes no sense. I think he might be my most hated character on the show now.

And that last scene yeah... there were a lot of better ways they could have handled it but instead they went for maximum shock value. Oh well...
 
I was under the impression that they are just religious fanatics. If throwing the kingdom into chaos later on was a tactical move on their part then that's interesting. But that's more speculation/theory.

Well I wouldn't go that far. But they are fanatics with some amount of pragmatism, otherwise they would never have worked with Cersei at all.
 
The moment Sansa agreed to going to Winterfell and the marriage, she signed on for what came with it. Ramsay consummating the marriage was expected, the uproar is dubious. Sansa is a pawn just like she's been since season 1. I think readers/viewers are projecting some kind of character growth that wasn't really earned, but go ahead and keep posting Sansa in black staircase gifs.
 

ultron87

Member
Maybe don't emphasize that Winterfell is thousands of miles away in a conversation with the dude that just bounced down from there no problem as if on a weekend trip.
 

NeoGiff

Member
Would I be able to post that Olenna/Sand Snakes gif in the Unsullied thread? They're over there talking endless shit about Dorne... it might lighten the mood a bit.
 

Ratrat

Member
Well I wouldn't go that far. But they are fanatics with some amount of pragmatism, otherwise they would never have worked with Cersei at all.
I'll just assume that Lancel has a smidgen of loyalty left. I could believe that at least he might not go against her yet.
 

Asami208

Banned
The moment Sansa agreed to going to Winterfell and the marriage, she signed on for what came with it. Ramsay consummating the marriage was expected, the uproar is dubious. Sansa is a pawn just like she's been since season 1. I think readers/viewers are projecting some kind of character growth that wasn't really earned, but go ahead and keep posting Sansa in black staircase gifs.

Way to completely miss the point. Bravo.
 

bengraven

Member
I have to say I really liked the episode. Wife dug it too. We both hated the Sand Snakes/Anakin and Padme shit, but at least we get some Bronn.

Jorah and Tyrion, both scenes fantastic. The bromance building as they talk about their dead fathers or find out about their dead fathers and of course Mr. Ekko and the cock merchant.

Arya was good all the way through. Can't believe anyone questioned that. The scene where the waif tells her such a typical story, then asked if she's lying. The scene with the dying child and father and Arya finally acting. The Hound truth. The room of faces. Every scene I thought was great.

I did like the bath and the wedding from a story perspective. Of course I feel for Sansa as I've been saying since they first proposed it and I was "white knighting" her as someone on here said. I hate this part of the story, but I will admit it's good STORY. It's horrifying like a horror film can be horrifying and good both. Alfie stands out as the sort of narrator/witness to all this and as people have said, he's the stand out. In 5 years he went from Lily Allen's Brother From the Song to "Oh Lily? Alfie's sister? Does she even put music out anymore?" His hurt when Sansa sees him wearing very Winterfell/Robb like gear is so painful you almost feel more for him than her, who is about to get married. The wedding was moody as fuck and nicely shot though I kept thinking, after the Zedd thread, how much crazy-eye-trying-to-play-sane Ramsay looks like EviLore. haha The rape was suck. Her crying into the sheets made me want to stop watching - they could have easily cut it there. She was doing her duty and she hated it and goddamn it I didn't need to hear her screams as he mounted her.

Cersei and Littlefinger was great. The reveal to her that Sansa is in Winterfell was great. I love the little reveals on this show that were never in the books because despite it not being as realistic, it's fun from a story/soap opera perspective. Jorah hearing about his dad from Tyrion, Cersei revealing to her father that she's fucking Jaime, etc.

I wonder if, while in Easteros, Varys can find a cock merchant and get a replacement.

OK, just one thing: how in the fuck can they not put "SUNSPEAR" or something in Dorne? Why Dorne? Dorne is not a city. Meereen is a city and they got it right, why not Sunspear or Water gardens?

#ANGRYGOTFAN

Would I be able to post that Olenna/Sand Snakes gif in the Unsullied thread? They're over there talking endless shit about Dorne... it might lighten the mood a bit.

Well it's already on Reddit with like 1600 karma, so why not...
 
The moment Sansa agreed to going to Winterfell and the marriage, she signed on for what came with it. Ramsay consummating the marriage was expected, the uproar is dubious. Sansa is a pawn just like she's been since season 1. I think readers/viewers are projecting some kind of character growth that wasn't really earned, but go ahead and keep posting Sansa in black staircase gifs.

Well, yeah...that's the problem. The fact that they just kept Sansa as the victim for a whole other season. Also the fact that they keep using rape to let people know that these guys are bad guys. Its just lazy writing imo.
 
She didnt know much about Ramsay before or that Theon would be watching. You don't think the whole setup was calculated to humiliate and debase her?

Of course I do. I'm just not too sure what people were expecting, Sansa obviously didn't know Theon would be watching, but I'm sure she knew she'd be consummating the marriage, there is traditionally a bedding ceremony after the wedding in Westeros right?

I can buy that the issue is one of character development, but the notion that the scene was totally out of place and 'only for shock value' seems nearsighted to be. It was consistent with the world of Westeros and Ramsey's character.

Why didn't I read a ton about Daenerys being raped by Drogo when that happened?
 

bengraven

Member
I'll just assume that Lancel has a smidgen of loyalty left. I could believe that at least he might not go against her yet.

I think the opposite. I think he's becoming a somewhat low wage Machavellian villain to her. He wants to see her fall, but you are right in that there's a smidgen in there - a smidgen of Lancel himself.

I'm watching this scene and going "the High Sparrow must know that Cersei was fucking Lancel as well, he's said he confessed to it". So is HS playing the long game?

Of course I do. I'm just not too sure what people were expecting, Sansa obviously didn't know Theon would be watching, but I'm sure she knew she'd be consummating the marriage, there is traditionally a bedding ceremony after the wedding in Westeros right?

I can buy that the issue is one of character development, but the notion that the scene was totally out of place and 'only for shock value' seems nearsighted to be. It was consistent with the world of Westeros and Ramsey's character.

Why didn't I read a ton about Daenerys being raped by Drogo when that happened?

I understand where you're coming from, but I'm really not going there. It's something that will be up for debate for quite a while and I just don't want to join in.

And Dany being raped by Drogo was a topic of quite a bit of discussion. Since there were not one but two scenes of her bawling - one of which was him mounting her in a tent, her topless and sobbing as you hear the slaps of his loins on her ass and him grunting. Much more than we saw in this and yet I wonder if people will be more disturbed by Sansa when in reality they're both the same exact thing: young girl submits because it's "her duty" and it feels like rape.
 
These fuckers who make this show must get a kick out of being gross. With the reputation this show has (well deserved) they don't need to be ending episodes with drawn out rape horror scenes. Especially for a character who has been through this kind of humiliating shit over and over already.

It never even comes to anything! No story ever proceeds in a straight line on this show, and it's shown itself to unconcerned with dealing with the effects of rape over and over again. It just happens, and then the story proceeds as it would have if it never occurred.

So D+D obviously must like doing rape scenes. They just throw them in whenever they get a chance, or if there hasn't been one in a while, they make one up.

They are sexualizing the show from the very beginning.. I thought it was because "sex sell" stuff but now I think they are really enjoying themselves. Gross.
 

Ratrat

Member
Of course I do. I'm just not too sure what people were expecting, Sansa obviously didn't know Theon would be watching, but I'm sure she knew she'd be consummating the marriage, there is traditionally a bedding ceremony after the wedding in Westeros right?

I can buy that the issue is one of character development, but the notion that the scene was totally out of place and 'only for shock value' seems nearsighted to be. It was consistent with the world of Westeros and Ramsey's character.

Why didn't I read a ton about Daenerys being raped by Drogo when that happened?
The outrage started when the plot was revealed. People defending it suggested Sansa would maintain a degree of agency and get her revenge. As it is she's just raped and waiting to be rescued by Theon or Brienne. After that she can go back to being a pawn for Littlefinger or Stannis while she raises her new baby.
 
Seasons 1 and 4 were good television. The rest has been pretty meh with some flashes of being better.

Yeah, I mostly agree with that. Season 1 was definitely good. Needed a bit more to be great, but still pretty damn solid. And each season has some pretty good moments. Even while season 2 was falling down for me, Blackwater was about as good an adaptation of the battle as we're going to get on a TV budget, and Theon's execution of Rodrik was really well done.
 
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