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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 5 - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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cartoon_soldier
Member
PD you rather see dogs and theon action?
Basileus777
Member
He thinks that is subtle.
Well, you see characters have something called an arc in which they grow and change over the course of a story, usually (although not always) overcoming whatever obstacle is placed in front of them through this growth. Sansa has already gone through the terrified, abused girl routine her character has become more wise and accepting of the world and her current situation, she is beginning to learn how to play the game. So having Sansa become Jeyne Poole makes no sense. This isn't about sex. This is about rape and abuse. Sansa isn't "playing the game" she isn't seducing Ramsay as she (TWOW material)
starts to seduce Harry the Heir
If you believe that Sansa's story is somehow "better" than what GRRM writes then I truly don't know what to say. Also, we don't know what happened with Jeyne Poole and the dogs, that's kid of the point. Subtly. Also, JP is a powerful lesson upon the effects the GoT has on the small people. JP has nothing to do with these highborn games, she just happened to be the daughter of the steward of Winterfell. As such her tale is a tragic story about the small folk caught in the crossfire as the highborns play their GoT.
That's not what he wrote for Sansa. Jeyne was a fraud who is abused by Ramsay and is Theons redemption.
cartoon_soldier
Member
My part about GRRM writing only has to do with what happened to JP vs what was shown as happening to Sansa in the scene that is supposed to mirror the books. Yes, Sansa isn't seducing Ramsay, she isn't some master (at least yet). She is also not the old Sansa either. What really matters is what we see next in the Sansa arc on the show.
We already know this change was made, so I really am not sure what people were expecting. Theon will still have his redemption.
Interceptor
Banned
The worst rape this season is the plotline of the books.
Basileus777
Member
Idolizing purity and innocence is pretty creepy. I don't really like Sansa taking Jeyne Poole's place, but the "it's okay to
subtly
PhoenixDark
Banned
Oh I misread your post; I thought you meant the overall arc (Theon) is better than ADWD's Theon arc.
But yes, even the Poole rape isn't done in an exploitative or ugly way. You don't see it "on camera," the shock comes in the aftermath as you see Poole's terror (hiding in the corner of the room, flinching at being touched, etc).
As I said my problem isn't that Sansa was raped, even though the more I think about it the less it makes sense narrative wise. My problem is how it was done, and the showrunner's track record on this.
Jeyne is a nobody plot device. Sansas arc shouldn't be nuked for Theon or Ramsay.
We knew she was taking Pooles role but not to what extent. And the backlash was there before the rape.
People would not be complaining if Sansa seduced Ramsay/Hairy whatever. You really think it's about virginity and not rape?
Cpt.Underpants
Member
I must say Alfie Allen was just superb in this episode.
The scene where Sansa rejected Theon to take her arm. Damn that was cold.
The scene where Sansa rejected Theon to take her arm. Damn that was cold.
Basileus777
Member
The courtroom scene was even worse. Using that small little room for such an event looked so cheap.
For some of the things I've seen said, perhaps. I don't mean to lump all the criticism of the plotline with it though.
The only plus of this season. Give this man his Emmy already.
I hope you are trolling...
What are you talking about? It's perfectly reasonable that the most important people in the kingdoms would huddle together in a broom closet for tea and gossip.
Interceptor
Banned
Seriously. It´s just such a contrast to what it should have been. Where´s all this "biggest budget ever / shooting on so many locations worldwide" in the actual show?
Season 5 feels more like a cheap Xena/Hercules spinoff than anything else. Why did they change the people in charge? I remember lot´s of "this is my first season" talk in the behind the scenes video. Well, make it your last season as well then.
Like I said, it's not a shock, but Sansa has been on the brink(and rescued from it) of that scene for almost the entirety of the show. People seem to be surprised at the reaction, I'm a bit surprised it's been taken for granted.
I got the impression it was a secret/closed doors trial.
toastyToast
Member
Everyone complaining about the final scene...
Seriously, what did people think was going to happen?
People aren't complaining about the scene so much the as the sequence of events leading up to that scene. Sansa paid her dues already. Her suffering phase is behind her. How this serves the story remains to be seen but there is an already existing (or transpiring) progression to the character that follows the sequence of events that lead her to where she is in the books. Consolidating Sansa's arc of becoming powerful to one the most helpless people in the books was a dumb move.
Pyramid head
Banned
People keep saying this and I don't get the point you're trying to make. Just because we already knew the show writers had shoehorned Sansa into a plotline that wasn't originally intended for her, we should pretend we don't think it was a shit idea?Everyone complaining about the final scene...
Seriously, what did people think was going to happen?
Everyone complaining about the final scene...
Seriously, what did people think was going to happen?
Remember in the books when Viserys forced Daenerys to marry Khal Drogo and she was all like "no, I don't want to" but he was all like "you will." And then on the wedding night Khal Drogo comes to take her but she actually leads him to where they consummate the marriage and seduces him? You know so it's like not Khal Drogo violently raping Daenerys as she cries?
Basileus777
Member
Exactly. Dunno why people keep posting that stupid ass gif like it means anything as to what people are actually complaining about.
Basileus777
Member
In the books too. He seduces her that first night into saying yes. But after that:
He rapes her as she cries in pain every night.
The scene you are thinking of where Dany leads him is much later, not at the start. Book Drogo "violently rapes Daenerys as she cries" many many times. Dany was even considering killing herself until she dreamed of dragons!
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
Remember the time in the books that Drogo and Ramsay were actually different characters who behaved differently?
Atraveller
Banned
The only good thing that came out of that scene.I must say Alfie Allen was just superb in this episode.
The scene where Sansa rejected Theon to take her arm. Damn that was cold.
cartoon_soldier
Member
I expect us to see a stronger Sansa as the season progresses. If you are right and this just goes back to Sansa who becomes sad again at what happened to her then yea, this whole plot will have had no reason to exist.
I must say Alfie Allen was just superb in this episode.
The scene where Sansa rejected Theon to take her arm. Damn that was cold.
One of the best character in the books, the best character in the show.
Atraveller
Banned
No one complained about the good original scenes, it's the bad ones people have problems with.
The only thing that bothered me about the episode was the junior Michelle Rodriguez fan club. Otherwise I thought it was all fine.
Jorah and Tyrion the best stuff for sure though. Wonder if we get to see the circus. That would be more offending than the wedding consummation I think.
Jorah and Tyrion the best stuff for sure though. Wonder if we get to see the circus. That would be more offending than the wedding consummation I think.
The show's full of dark moments interspersed by moments of triumph that make the reader/viewer feel good (Robb inducted as King of the North, Arya killing the Tickler, Joffrey's death, Stannis saving the Night's Watch, Tywin's death and so on). What happened was awful, as it should be, but you can only assume Ramsey will get his or there will be some pay off for Sansa eventually. Considering they've made efforts to show Sansa learning to play the game at the end of last season, I'm not going to believe that D&D just gave all that up just to revert back to form. She is the most powerful woman in the North now. At a terrible cost, obviously, her character arc is probably the lowest it's ever been. But it doesn't mean she can't rise up from it when presumably Stannis or Brienne (likely to be the latter) comes knocking on Winterfell's door.
I think the real problem is that 10 episodes just isn't enough for this kind of adaptation. Multiple story threads here are given short time to truly flourish.
I think the real problem is that 10 episodes just isn't enough for this kind of adaptation. Multiple story threads here are given short time to truly flourish.
Good. Don't know why he should waste time giving a shit, he has books to write.
Basileus777
Member
People have complained about everything there is to complain about. There is plenty of legitimate criticism, but there are a lot of people whining about irrelevant shit. I imagine it's the latter that has mostly reached GRRM's ear.
They are adapting almost 750k words into 10 episodes, so yeah, the pacing is going to be especially strange this season.
Atraveller
Banned
That reached him a long time ago, but statement like this released just after this episode, you know that most of those comment most likely aren't "irreverent shit".
Holy shit.... that sand snakes fight......
Seriously all i could hear in my head was this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK6TXMsvgQg
Seriously all i could hear in my head was this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK6TXMsvgQg
The problem is that everything that's bad, like really bad, is all non-adapted content.
cartoon_soldier
Member
I just realized.
Sansa is being played by Littlefinger. He hasn't taught her anything, she thinks he has. So yea, less sure how this will be played out now.
Sansa is being played by Littlefinger. He hasn't taught her anything, she thinks he has. So yea, less sure how this will be played out now.
I've never been one of those people who says "if it isn't 100% like the source material, then it sucks." I understand that these are adaptations, and certain changes must be made, for practicalities sake. And to be honest, it makes things more interesting sometimes.
However, THIS particular change was completely unnecessary and serves no purpose. You went too far there show.
However, THIS particular change was completely unnecessary and serves no purpose. You went too far there show.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
I think it will be interesting if she actually did learn from him, or at least substantially more than he had expected/planned and it somehow comes back to bite him in the ass. I hope that is the direction her arc eventually heads down, at any rate.
Monocle
Member
I can't agree while Varys and Lady Olenna are still around. Each and every one of their scenes are gold.
Yeah, yeah... I know the shark can't be unjumped, but some of this season's earlier episodes were giving me a little hope that the show might recover from the wasted opportunities of Season 4.
That's because they've tethered themselves to two books in one season. Either one book or no books will streamline everything which I think is the main problem.
Edit: Just to be clear, I'm saying this to be hopeful. Mostly for myself.
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