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[duckroll]

I think another factor that makes some of the sexual violence in the show feel so gross and uncomfortable is knowing that to a certain extent HBO sees the sexual element of the show as a plus. It's definitely part of the package they're selling - dudes want to see more tits, etc. When there's already this aspect in the show, it taints everything else, even if they might be trying to make a "point" with a character. Nothing is made in a vacuum.

Like, remember these comments from Neil Marshall?

http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=34164

The podcast covers a question about nudity and sex at around the 6:45 mark.

The weirdest part was when you have one of the exec producers leaning over your shoulder, going, 'You can go full frontal, you know. This is television, you can do whatever you want! And do it! I urge you to do it!' So I was like, 'Okay, well, you're the boss.'

This particular exec took me to one side and said, 'Look, I represent the pervert side of the audience, okay? Everybody else is the serious drama side, [but] I represent the perv side of the audience, and I'm saying I want full frontal nudity in this scene.' So you go ahead and do it.

This is the environment the show is made in. So when the show chooses to deliberately take a character who is played by an actress who was underaged when the series started, and put her through this when there is no such even in the books, it does make you wonder. That's not the good sort of wondering either.

 

[Massa]

I guess they did.

Too bad George won't be able to hold their hands through it for the final seasons, though. I'll love to have this argument again once seasons 6 and 7 are over.

This attitude is just sad. You've already made your mind about the show and there's nothing that will change it.

It will be funny to see things people criticize D&D for show up in later books.

 

[Speevy]

She probably would have let a patient, understanding Ramsay have sex with her.

But a crazy one who just asked Theon to watch and then proceeds to rip off her clothes? Rape.

 

[toastyToast]

More relevant now than ever:

Littlefinger is becoming increasingly like an opposite-land Carcetti

 

[Ganzlinger]

Man, rewatching the Dorne scene... it's like the sand snakes are straight out of Scooby Doo.

I'm not brave enough to see that again.

 

[TrueBlue]

I'm going to just finish this because I'm not a fan of hole digging but you at least do have the gist of what I was saying, but it's not the entire point. It's not as cut and dry as if I were saying "she asked for it because she agreed to marry" because that wasn't my intention.

Someone pointed out the three things that made it rape and I agreed with two of the three. The third though: I do think she agreed to have sex, at that moment even, but then again it would take someone being inside her head or inner monologue to know exactly what she was thinking. I hated the scene, I felt uncomfortable as fuck the entire time and I've been dreading since the rumors of her marrying him. I knew he was going to rape her, that she wasn't going to want to go through with it. But watching the scene, in my opinion, she looked like she was accepting it, even though it tore her and the audience apart.

(and to think there were people saying we were "white knighting her virginity". I'd love to see what they're saying now)

At that moment? If you mean the moment of when it happened, I'm a little lost as to how you could reach this conclusion.

But anyway, don't take this to be a personal attack, because it isn't.

 

[Massa]

This is the environment the show is made in. So when the show chooses to deliberately take a character who is played by an actress who was underaged when the series started, and put her through this when there is no such even in the books, it does make you wonder. That's not the good sort of wondering either.

The event of a teenage girl being raped by Ramsay on her wedding night is definitely in the books.

 

[ZeroRay]

Hey guys, remember Ros? She was pretty cool.

 

[TRios Zen]

I'm not too sure, considering the existence of arranged marriages in the univserse and such. If someone doesn't have a choice when it comes down to it, then I don't think that's consent.

I do agree that the rape discussion is diverting away from the possible slight it has had on Sansa's character, but I wouldn't call it silly.

Fair enough, and I think what happened to Sansa was terrible, whether it is labeled as "rape" or not. I am looking forward to the time (hopefully) when she starts getting her recompense for all that she has had to endure.

 

[Dysun]

David and Dan kept talking about how much they like Dorne from the books, based on what we've seen, their favorite must have been Darkstar

 

[duckroll]

The event of a teenage girl being raped by Ramsay on her wedding night is definitely in the books.

Okay? That has zero bearing on what I'm saying. There are also multiple scenes of the Mountain raping young girls to death in the books. Maybe one of them could be Arya next! That would totally not be gross right?

 

[Steelyuhas]

It feels like they should have yada yada'd the sand snakes in the first couple episodes and got Doran front and center in the Dornish plotline with room to work. He's the real character there, and everyone wasn't rounded up so he can make his moves until 6 episodes in.

 

[radios shipping overview]

The event of a teenage girl being raped by Ramsay on her wedding night is definitely in the books.

But it wasn't Sansa (or Arya) Stark, and it had no impact on the development of the series' central characters.

Poor Jeyne Poole - held hostage, raped, and then written out. This is definitely the most egregious example of D&D's story-merging.

 

[bengraven]

I think another factor that makes some of the sexual violence in the show feel so gross and uncomfortable is knowing that to a certain extent HBO sees the sexual element of the show as a plus. It's definitely part of the package they're selling - dudes want to see more tits, etc. When there's already this aspect in the show, it taints everything else, even if they might be trying to make a "point" with a character. Nothing is made in a vacuum.

Like, remember these comments from Neil Marshall?

http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=34164

The podcast covers a question about nudity and sex at around the 6:45 mark.



This is the environment the show is made in. So when the show chooses to deliberately take a character who is played by an actress who was underaged when the series started, and put her through this when there is no such even in the books, it does make you wonder. That's not the good sort of wondering either.

I was going to say this earlier but we were distracted, but think D&D were attracted to the books for all the wrong reasons. They've admitted to wanting the Red Wedding on TV and I sometimes wonder if that's indicative of their motives: they want the shock. They want to put everything shocking they can to make good TV.

Rape was a part of the books, though it was usually second hand knowledge - stories being told or remembered. It was horrible enough to hear stories of it and you dreaded it ever happening to a character you cared about but we were mostly saved that. The only instant of actual rape during a POV chapter that was happening were the Dany chapters during the siege of the Lazareen and the attempted rape on Sansa in Clash. But it was mentioned quite a bit to the point that people were talking to GURM about it even before the show came on. It became a trope of his. And the Dans took it and expanded on it.

Suddenly rape was everywhere. It happened to major characters. We see it all the time and it's on the news every time a rape happens. And it's just helping make the show more buzzworthy. It's not a part of the story in that no character grows from rape. Sansa's near rape and then real rape could have been bookends with a more competent writer: with her in control and preventing it from happening. GURM would have never written this scene, ever, I don't believe. It doesn't make sense for the story.

But in the end, it's really all about the Dans getting what they want: shocking TV that sells merch and gets ratings.

At that moment? If you mean the moment of when it happened, I'm a little lost as to how you could reach this conclusion.

But anyway, don't take this to be a personal attack, because it isn't.

I hope not, because I truly am not giving any excuses to any character here or for any behavior. I think it's because I have faith in her character, in the way she's being portrayed as more strong on the show than in the books - I don't want her to not be at least a bit in control. She has faith in LF and believes he would never put her in harms way, so she accepts this moment even though she hates and fears and dreads this.

The muddiness of the internet is that if you're someone who's a poor debater like myself, it's easy to get your intentions blasted...I could probably write 3000 words of explanation and still not explain my reasoning. I regret even replying to that post.

 

[News Bot]

Still more Sansa rape to go. It's likely to get worse before it ever (if ever) gets better.

 

[Showaddy]

This is the environment the show is made in. So when the show chooses to deliberately take a character who is played by an actress who was underaged when the series started, and put her through this when there is no such even in the books, it does make you wonder. That's not the good sort of wondering either.

Out of interest, what would your opinion be if they stuck to the books and we had the brutal rape of Jeyne Poole instead?

 

[jtb]

I think another factor that makes some of the sexual violence in the show feel so gross and uncomfortable is knowing that to a certain extent HBO sees the sexual element of the show as a plus. It's definitely part of the package they're selling - dudes want to see more tits, etc. When there's already this aspect in the show, it taints everything else, even if they might be trying to make a "point" with a character. Nothing is made in a vacuum.

Like, remember these comments from Neil Marshall?

http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=34164

The podcast covers a question about nudity and sex at around the 6:45 mark.



This is the environment the show is made in. So when the show chooses to deliberately take a character who is played by an actress who was underaged when the series started, and put her through this when there is no such even in the books, it does make you wonder. That's not the good sort of wondering either.

I agree. Reminds me of Emily Nussbaum's piece on Game of Thrones like four years ago, which still rings very true. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/05/07/the-aristocrats

As with “True Blood,” the show’s most graphic elements—the cruel ones, the fantasy ones, and the cruel-fantasy ones—speak to female as well as male viewers. (One of the nuttiest quotes I’ve ever read came from Alan Ball, “True Blood” ’s showrunner, who said that a focus group had revealed that men watched his series for the sex and women for the romance. Please.) But there is something troubling about this sea of C.G.I.-perfect flesh, shaved and scentless and not especially medieval. It’s unsettling to recall that these are not merely pretty women; they are unknown actresses who must strip, front and back, then mimic graphic sex and sexual torture, a skill increasingly key to attaining employment on cable dramas. During the filming of the second season, an Irish actress walked off the set when her scene shifted to what she termed “soft porn.” Of course, not everyone strips: there are no truly explicit scenes of gay male sex, fewer lingering shots of male bodies, and the leading actresses stay mostly buttoned up. Artistically, “Game of Thrones” is in a different class from “House of Lies,” “Californication,” and “Entourage.” But it’s still part of another colorful patriarchal subculture, the one called Los Angeles.

 

[Speevy]

Poor Jeyne Poole - held hostage, raped, and then written out. .

Well, D&D just picked one of those things.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

I'm going to just finish this because I'm not a fan of hole digging but you at least do have the gist of what I was saying, but it's not the entire point. It's not as cut and dry as if I were saying "she asked for it because she agreed to marry" because that wasn't my intention.

Someone pointed out the three things that made it rape and I agreed with two of the three. The third though: I do think she agreed to have sex, at that moment even, but then again it would take someone being inside her head or inner monologue to know exactly what she was thinking. I hated the scene, I felt uncomfortable as fuck the entire time and I've been dreading since the rumors of her marrying him. I knew he was going to rape her, that she wasn't going to want to go through with it. But watching the scene, in my opinion, she looked like she was accepting it, even though it tore her and the audience apart.

(and to think there were people saying we were "white knighting her virginity". I'd love to see what they're saying now)

Really not looking to pile on, there's nothing wrong, IMO, with having a conversation about the subject. But rape is still rape, even if the victim accepts what's happening to them.

 

[kirblar]

I think another factor that makes some of the sexual violence in the show feel so gross and uncomfortable is knowing that to a certain extent HBO sees the sexual element of the show as a plus. It's definitely part of the package they're selling - dudes want to see more tits, etc. When there's already this aspect in the show, it taints everything else, even if they might be trying to make a "point" with a character. Nothing is made in a vacuum.

Like, remember these comments from Neil Marshall?

http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=34164

The podcast covers a question about nudity and sex at around the 6:45 mark.

This is the environment the show is made in. So when the show chooses to deliberately take a character who is played by an actress who was underaged when the series started, and put her through this when there is no such even in the books, it does make you wonder. That's not the good sort of wondering either.

I think, in their own heads, that they don't trust the audience to understand "this is gross and would be rape by our modern standards" for consummating these marriage alliances, so they go and make it literal rape instead.

And then they of course fall into the double standard with this, where when it happens to a woman, it's rape, but when it's a boy, it's nice.gif.

 

[Speevy]

Maybe they did muck up Sansa's storyline. It isn't finished yet.

But for anyone to argue that rape shouldn't happen to her because she's Sansa? Uh...I'm not sure you've been watching the same show.

 

[vas_a_morir]

Littlefinger is becoming increasingly like an opposite-land Carcetti

Or Medieval Ryan O'Reilly from Oz.

 

[Hex]

I think another factor that makes some of the sexual violence in the show feel so gross and uncomfortable is knowing that to a certain extent HBO sees the sexual element of the show as a plus. It's definitely part of the package they're selling - dudes want to see more tits, etc. When there's already this aspect in the show, it taints everything else, even if they might be trying to make a "point" with a character. Nothing is made in a vacuum.

Like, remember these comments from Neil Marshall?

http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=34164

The podcast covers a question about nudity and sex at around the 6:45 mark.



This is the environment the show is made in. So when the show chooses to deliberately take a character who is played by an actress who was underaged when the series started, and put her through this when there is no such even in the books, it does make you wonder. That's not the good sort of wondering either.

Perhaps people who need to analyze a show this much need to stop watching it.
GoT has more male nudity, more male on male interaction than most shows on tv yet when it is convenient, all people want to remember is tits and bush.
It is a brutal show, and perhaps and hopefully they are making it darkest so that when the turn around happens it will be that much more worth it.
It is strange to me when people being eviscerated, trampled and butchered does not make people bat an eye.
What happened to Theon, people barely really cared.
This was visceral and had people on the edge, and like it or not it had the desired effect.

 

[bengraven]

God, you know this is being set up to cut Ramsay's cock off, right?

I can see it now: Season 6 gifs showing a shot of Ramsay screaming cut to Ekko going "find a cock merchant".

Still more Sansa rape to go. It's likely to get worse before it ever (if ever) gets better.

This is why I really hope, unlike Dany in Season 1, we don't have to see them anymore. Just a scene with her with a bruised cheek, like the preview showed, is enough to know what's happening...

Really not looking to pile on, there's nothing wrong, IMO, with having a conversation about the subject. But rape is still rape, even if the victim accepts what's happening to them.

Yep, and I've said it. It was still rape.

I'm dropping it after this post.

Or Medieval Ryan O'Reilly from Oz.

Or a fantasy version of his FBI character in Dark Knight Rises...

Am I doing this right?

 

[AkuMifune]

I can see it now: Season 6 gifs showing a shot of Ramsay screaming cut to Ekko going "find a cock merchant".

Also, "Hey this looks like a dwarf's cock." Insult to injury. It's the only possible justice.

 

[Kain]

Another little thing I'm remembering now... aren't "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken" the words of House Martell? Guess who are NOT Martells: exactly! Ellaria and her daughters are not Martells. Yay!

#ANGRYGOTFAN

 

[bengraven]

You're giving him a run for the money.

WHY DOESN'T ANYONE UNDERSTAND

Also, "Hey this looks like a dwarf's cock." Insult to injury. It's the only possible justice.

He did seem kind of jealous of Theon's cock..."they say it's pretty big..."

 

[duckroll]

Out of interest, what would your opinion be if they stuck to the books and we had the brutal rape of Jeyne Poole instead?

My opinion will depend on how it is handled, and how it is presented to the audience. Considering the fact that Jeyne Poole is a non-character in the show, that's not a question that can be answered. In this particularly case, how we got to the point of the act is weak narratively, and with the way the show has handled sex and violence in general gives it very little credibility when attempting to pull off scenes like rape. This has been an ongoing issue with the show. If you want to pander and have titillating stuff as a selling point for the audience, it weakens your ability to say "this one is a serious and sensitive moment which we put a lot of thought and respect into".

 

[Red Arremer]

I actually don't remember that, but I might have skipped over it if I saw it coming.

Spoiler

I think this is the first time I got avatar quoted, but I might be wrong

It's not mentioned in any of the "bedroom" scenes or whatnot, but it's heavily implied as I mentioned. When Jeyne talks to Theon, she mentions it that she'd do whatever Ramsay wants, with him or the dogs.

 

[bengraven]

Anyone else tear up when Jorah said: "was...?"

The look on Tyrion's face and I actually exhaled and said "ooooooooh...nooooo..." a few seconds before Tyrion said, "you didn't know...".

Damn, I knew there was a reason they showed Jeor in the intro, but I thought it was because Theon and Jorah were going to reminisce about him...then I realized just when Tyrion did that Jorah couldn't know about it yet.

 

[Ganzlinger]

The event of a teenage girl being raped by Ramsay on her wedding night is definitely in the books.

Yeah, Jeyne Poole not Sansa. If the showrunners decided that Jeyne wasn't necessary, they also shouldn't bring Ramsay's marriage to the show. The show could live without this marriage, they could arrange another way to redeem Theon, or make him being rescued after the fight with Stannis, it would be the same. Sansa's being raped by Ramsay isn't a "replace". She has her own arc and her own development. That rape scene and marriage is more an "add-on" to her story that is completely unnecessary. And D&D said on an interview that they were really putting Sansa in that situation because they really liked Sophie Turner and her arc on the book was "boring". So it was just for making appeal. The Eyrie or any other ASOIAF arc is boring if you lack writing and directing skills.

 

[Brakke]

It was cool how the camera lingered over Sansa's sleeve as she undressed. Everyone in my crew thought she had a knife up there.

Not yet though.

 

[duckroll]

Perhaps people who need to analyze a show this much need to stop watching it.
GoT has more male nudity, more male on male interaction than most shows on tv yet when it is convenient, all people want to remember is tits and bush.
It is a brutal show, and perhaps and hopefully they are making it darkest so that when the turn around happens it will be that much more worth it.
It is strange to me when people being eviscerated, trampled and butchered does not make people bat an eye.
What happened to Theon, people barely really cared.
This was visceral and had people on the edge, and like it or not it had the desired effect.

Or perhaps people who watch the show and can enjoy the low brow elements of it, can also exercise critical thinking and discuss elements they feel are handled poorly? Why should people stop watching the show simply because you don't like seeing this sort of discussion? if you do not wish to partake it in, you are not being forced to.

The handling of homosexuality on the show is also troubling. I've brought up the poor handling of Loras before. There are things the show does do well. There are things it does poorly. We can talk about both.

 

[Electric_ Cthulhu]

When it comes to the Sand Snakes, it must have been exactly the way another poster said a couple of pages ago. David and Dan saw that Oberyn was very popular - and rightfully so - and thought: "Man, wouldn't it be great to have kind of a female Oberyn? Even three of them? People gonna love this." Nope. Not so much.

BTW: Wasn't my intention to derail this thread with that rape talk.

 

[bengraven]

You know what's kind of funny...the Unsullied thread isn't dwelling on it as much as we did. They're talking about theories on Bolton vs. Stannis, laughing at the Sand Snakes, and being creepy over how pretty Myrcella is. I feel like they would be more hung up on it.

When it comes to the Sand Snakes, it must have been exactly the way another poster said a couple of pages ago. David and Dan saw that Oberyn was very popular - and rightfully so - and thought: "Man, wouldn't it be great to have kind of a female Oberyn? Even three of them? People gonna love this." Nope. Not so much.

Which is the very wrong reason to use them. They're supposed to be locked away - I never even expected to see them on the show. They have a very minor part with a very short action sequence in the books and on the show apparently. Using them because Oberyn was popular is stupid. We could have had Dany receive a message from Doran saying "they destroyed our family...we're with you...land in Dorne" and skipped the entire fucking country.

 

[SamVimes]

Perhaps people who need to analyze a show this much need to stop watching it.
GoT has more male nudity, more male on male interaction than most shows on tv yet when it is convenient, all people want to remember is tits and bush.
It is a brutal show, and perhaps and hopefully they are making it darkest so that when the turn around happens it will be that much more worth it.
It is strange to me when people being eviscerated, trampled and butchered does not make people bat an eye.
What happened to Theon, people barely really cared.
This was visceral and had people on the edge, and like it or not it had the desired effect.

Yeah and guess what, every gay character is promiscuous and feminine. Also i don't see how telling people not to think about things is an argument, it just means that something is shoddily written and shouldn't be analyzed because it doesn't deserve it.

 

[Brakke]

Oh shit I forgot that Bronn got knicked by a Sand Snake huh. What an ignoble end. Gunna take my man out sweaty and fevered and delirious?

 

[Cpt.Underpants]

PffFft, previous Myrcella is superior

 

[AkuMifune]

The handling of homosexuality on the show is also troubling. I've brought up the poor handling of Loras before. There are things the show does do well. There are things it does poorly. We can talk about both.

The most troubling thing is he's like one of the best combatants in Westeros and on the show he's basically just a caricature.

I know they don't have time to flesh out every character, but this feels like a big misstep.

 

[bengraven]

Yeah and guess what, every gay character is promiscuous and feminine.

When I was watching his confession, I was thinking "Ladies and Gentlemen, one of the greatest warriors in all of Westeros, the man who has caught the eye of every giggling teenage girl in the kingdom, and a knight of the King's Guard".

Oh wait, no, "random knight who's totally gay".

PffFft, previous Myrcella is superior

Agreed. Though new Myrcella looks eerily like a girl I had a crush on when I was 19. Then I found out she was my second cousin.

I just realized the "Baratheon" kids are each others' cousins...

 

[Anton Sugar]

Oh shit I forgot that Bronn got knicked by a Sand Snake huh. What an ignoble end. Gunna take my man out sweaty and fevered and delirious?

Between Barristan and Bronn (well, his potential death, I suppose), pretty sure they are picking character fates out of a hat.

"Who put 'poisoned by a little girl' in here? Welp, rules is rules." *writes script*

 

[Brazil]

This attitude is just sad. You've already made your mind about the show and there's nothing that will change it.

It will be funny to see things people criticize D&D for show up in later books.

Thanks for telling me how I feel!

 

[Thaedolus]

The handling of homosexuality on the show is also troubling. I've brought up the poor handling of Loras before. There are things the show does do well. There are things it does poorly. We can talk about both.

Honestly, this is one of the most egregious change the show has made. Book Loras is a perfect gay character in that he's a badass not defined by his sexuality; it's an open secret that nobody seems to care about beyond an occasional joke/jab. Turning Show Loras into a spoiled brat who does nothing but has sexytime all day, and then having the audacity to make him a martyr over it is just beyond comprehension to me.

 

[bengraven]

Maybe Show Loras just wasn't that into Renly.

I mean, when Renly died it wasn't like he was broken up about it. Not like he killed a bunch of men in grief. I mean, if THAT happened then SURE I can believe he'd move on quickly to another dick...

Yeah and guess what, every gay character is promiscuous and feminine. Also i don't see how telling people not to think about things is an argument, it just means that something is shoddily written and shouldn't be analyzed because it doesn't deserve it.

I honestly never noticed it until people talked about it. I came in here after watching the episode and went "what cut?"

Then again it was so boring that I was hoping every second that passed that it was over...

 

[duckroll]

Bronn is probably going to die, it's going to suck, but if he dies because of the poison, the awful part would not be because he's "poisoned by a little girl", but because he got poisoned in one of the worst fight scenes in the series. :/

 

[foxtrot3d]

Yeah, would anyone actually buy this working with a character like Ramsay?

Book Ramsay is different than show Ramsay...


Basically what you are saying is that it's okay to change Sansa's character in order to allow her to be raped but it's not okay to change Ramsay's character to make Ramsay less sadistic so that Sansa isn't the victim of rape. You know especially since this show Ramsay has an actual GF who he at one point wanted to marry and was a consensual, if not fucked up, relationship.

 

[Speevy]

Honestly, this is one of the most egregious change the show has made. Book Loras is a perfect gay character in that he's a badass not defined by his sexuality; it's an open secret that nobody seems to care about beyond an occasional joke/jab. Turning Show Loras into a spoiled brat who does nothing but has sexytime all day, and then having the audacity to make him a martyr over it is just beyond comprehension to me.

Don't worry. He'll be sexing Olyvar on the executioner's block next week.

 

[eot]

That fight scene in Dorne was worse than the Grey Worm / Barristan fight. Quite the feat. That whole subplot is a disaster. Jorah's stuff was good, KL okay and Arya I'm not sure about. Her chapters were some of my favourite in AFfC/ADwD but it doesn't play as well here I think.

 

[bengraven]

Bronn is probably going to die, it's going to suck, but if he dies because of the poison, the awful part would not be because he's "poisoned by a little girl", but because he got poisoned in one of the worst fight scenes in the series. :/

God, I hope that since we all are expecting so many things to happen that we're all wrong. If Bronn survives and Stannis actually beats the Boltons, I'm going to sigh a breath of relief.

It's just not going to happen...

 

[m_shortpants]

Honestly, this is one of the most egregious change the show has made. Book Loras is a perfect gay character in that he's a badass not defined by his sexuality; it's an open secret that nobody seems to care about beyond an occasional joke/jab. Turning Show Loras into a spoiled brat who does nothing but has sexytime all day, and then having the audacity to make him a martyr over it is just beyond comprehension to me.

Yeah, who the fuck thought that was a good idea. I'm more surprised they're making it such a big part of the plot too. Expected better in 2015, especially because of the way it's handled in the books. Again, D and D are terrible with subtelty.

Also, after sleeping on it I'm not as bothered by the Sansa scene. Don't get me wrong, it was and still is horrible, but I guess in Westeros it's something that happens all over :/ It just felt extra bad because it was Sansa

I just hope they don't reduce her into a victim again even further.

Also, Stannis needs to burn Ramsay at the stake. At this point, it's the only end fitting of him. But I guess Ramsay's ultimate fuck you would be dying quickly with a stab wound or something.