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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 5 - Sundays on HBO

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Anoregon

The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
I have to be honest, having read all of the books: I literally have no recollection of Darkstar. Like, at all. The character must have had absolutely no impact on me because I retained absolutely nothing about him.
 
Sansa's plot is bad, LF telling Cersei that Sansa is alive and well and married to Ramsay is the worst shit I've ever seen in this show. LF is so fucking stupid it physically hurts.
Yeah.. LF in the show doesn't make sense, it's a shame because i like Aiden Gillen as him.
 

Thaedolus

Member
The problem isn't just "well, what did you expect?"

It's that the showrunners put her in this position. It makes no sense, from a character arc standpoint, where she's already gone through tons of abuse and humiliation. As others have pointed out, the entire Littlefinger/Sansa in the north subplot really doesn't seem too compelling or even necessary.

Mehh, they've skirted some of the stuff she endures in the books too. There was no "naked in front of court" scene (though close), Tyrion never whipped his dick out, she's older in the show, etc.

Honestly that scene wasn't nearly as bad as the book, it's just that we care more about this character than Jeyne. It was uncomfortable, but not something I cringed too hard at.
 
The one thing I'm worried about is BookMarg was innocent and has a good chance of getting off while ShowMarg is guilty and probably truly fucked.

This is another aspect to this season that I find fascinating. They're setting up a ton of stuff for payoff this season that necessarily HAS to spoil the books, or they make this season the biggest tease/frustration ever. They at least have to pay off:
- Stannis/Brienne
- Marg/Cersei
- Theon/Winterfell/Sansa/Ramsay

Like, one of these has to payoff somewhat substantially, and it necessarily has to set the stage for season 6 while going past what's been published thus far, no? Though in hindsight, I suppose Marg/Cersei ends with Margaery awaiting trial, Cersei doing her penance walk, and the introduction of Ser Robert Strong as her champion.
 
I feel like it's the last thing she has to endure before setting her up as Queen in the North. At least that's what I'm telling myself. Hopefully LF shows up thinking he'll be King and she gives him to the dogs, her arc complete.

I'm gonna cling to your optimistic coattails on this one.

Mehh, they've skirted some of the stuff she endures in the books too. There was no "naked in front of court" scene (though close), Tyrion never whipped his dick out, she's older in the show, etc.

Honestly that scene wasn't nearly as bad as the book, it's just that we care more about this character than Jeyne. It was uncomfortable, but not something I cringed too hard at.

I mean, what could possibly happen to her character via her relationship with Ramsey?

She knows the world is a cruel and unforgiving place.
She knows what it's like to be abused
She knows what it's like to be used as a pawn.
She knows what it's like to both play and not play "the game".
She knows what it feels like to be vengeful and to want vengeance.

I don't want to endure another season of Sansa suffering and/or "toughening up". She's been doing that for 4 seasons--I thought we were getting a payoff now.

Re: the "naked in front of court" scene, I'm pretty sure they didn't show that because she was underage (of course, there was no guarantee she would be naked if she were of age). Which makes it kinda fucked that D&D are like, "Hey, now that Sophie is of-age, what about sexual abuse and humiliation instead of just regular abuse and humiliation?"
 
People keep repeating that Sansa scene was rape. Again: It wasn't rape. Do you just say that because it sounds worse and confirmed the issues you have with the show?

It's under duress. You can quibble definitions all you like, but if it's not rape in any legal sense, it certainly is in any emotional sense.
 

Iksenpets

Banned
Holy shit, people are arguing that wasn't a rape? That scene was like D&D wanting to stick it to everyone who wanted to complained about their not-a-rape* (*totally a rape) last season by showing off what their rape would really look like. Like, they wanted to show off how little attention they pay to criticism by flaunting a scene that is even more criticism-worthy. I think they want credit for it not being as bad as the book, and are just ignoring that they changed the story, and needed to adjust that scene further to account for it.

I think there are ways they could have structured that scene that would have been much less destructive to Sansa's character without turning her into some Mary Sue who can wrap Ramsay around her finger no problem. Maybe Ramsay tells Theon to undress her, but Sansa repeats her refusal to be touched by him. Ramsay flashes anger, but restrains himself. He hits Theon and scolds him for upsetting his bride, then tells him to stay and watch. He starts undressing Sansa, no ripping, no pushing, and we see Sansa's face: upset, uncomfortable, but not resisting. She and Ramsay go down to the bed together, again no pushing, and we cut to Theon where we can let him act his face off for a second or two, no noises or anything. Now the scene is still violent, still uncomfortable, still disgusting, and still definitely a rape, but it's a scene where Sansa expresses agency and submits to coercion not because she's being physically dominated by Ramsay but because she's a steeled woman who knew this was part of the plan.

If they spent a few minutes thinking about how to maximize Sansa's agency in that scene I think they could've arrived at something similar to that that still would have been horrifying, just by merit of being Sansa and Ramsay, but that wouldn't have set off quite so many people's outrage detectors. It's like they think that because some people are going to be outraged no matter what, they should just say fuck it and write to be as outrageous as possible no matter what.

To focus on a positive, I will say that Dinklage has been making Tyrion's depressed wanderings this season way more endearing than they ever were in the books. Also, I like Lena Headey's somewhat less unhinged Cersei. I think she has to play the character a bit less insane to project the amount of confidence she has in herself at this point in time.

And in speculation, Littlefinger's scheme may amount to nothing, or it may be a pretty big confirmation about some of the theories out there about the Northern war being one that ends up destroying both Stannis and Bolton.

What's this about the book having Theon join? True?

In the book Ramsay marries another character, who is the right age for them to pretend it's Arya. Littlefinger's gave her to them out of his brothels, and so on their wedding night, Ramsay is upset that she is t ready to perform, despite Littlefinger's "training". He orders Theon to warm her up for him. Theon protests that he doesn't have a — and Ramsay cuts him off and tells him to use his tongue. Fun fact: that scene in the book is also the closest thing we get to an explicit reference to Theon being castrated. That's only heavily implied in the book.
 
Mehh, they've skirted some of the stuff she endures in the books too. There was no "naked in front of court" scene (though close), Tyrion never whipped his dick out, she's older in the show, etc.

Honestly that scene wasn't nearly as bad as the book, it's just that we care more about this character than Jeyne. It was uncomfortable, but not something I cringed too hard at.

I mean, what could possibly happen to her character via her relationship with Ramsey?

She knows the world is a cruel and unforgiving place.
She knows what it's like to be abused.
She knows what it's like to be used as a pawn.
She knows what it's like to both play and not play "the game".
She knows what it feels like to be vengeful and to want vengeance.

I don't want to endure another season of Sansa suffering and/or "toughening up". She's been doing that for 4 seasons--I thought we were getting a payoff now.

Re: the "naked in front of court" scene, I'm pretty sure they didn't show that because she was underage (of course, there was no guarantee she would be naked if she were of age). Which makes it kinda fucked that D&D are like, "Hey, now that Sophie is of-age, what about sexual abuse and humiliation instead of just regular abuse and humiliation?"
 
In the book Ramsay marries another character, who is the right age for them to pretend it's Arya. Littlefinger's gave her to them out of his brothels, and so on their wedding night, Ramsay is upset that she is t ready to perform, despite Littlefinger's "training". He orders Theon to warm her up for him. Theon protests that he doesn't have a — and Ramsay cuts him off and tells him to use his tongue. Fun fact: that scene in the book is also the closest thing we get to an explicit reference to Theon being castrated. That's only heavily implied in the book.

Later on it's also implied that Ramsay has his dogs fuck her, as well.
 

Thaedolus

Member
I'm gonna cling to your optimistic coattails on this one.



I mean, what could possibly happen to her character via her relationship with Ramsey?

She knows the world is a cruel and unforgiving place.
She knows what it's like to be abused
She knows what it's like to be used as a pawn.
She knows what it's like to both play and not play "the game".
She knows what it feels like to be vengeful and to want vengeance.

I don't want to endure another season of Sansa suffering and/or "toughening up". She's been doing that for 4 seasons--I thought we were getting a payoff now.

Re: the "naked in front of court" scene, I'm pretty sure they didn't show that because she was underage (of course, there was no guarantee she would be naked if she were of age). Which makes it kinda fucked that D&D are like, "Hey, now that Sophie is of-age, what about sexual abuse and humiliation instead of just regular abuse and humiliation?"

Via her relationship with Ramsy? She claims Winterfell and The North. It's hard to say how book Sansa is going to end up there (LF explicitly has the Vale laid out for her), but show Sansa ending up at Winterfell makes a bit more sense from the standpoint of keeping the viewer invested in that storyline. Introducing fArya (Jeyne) wouldn't have the same impact or give the storyline the same weight, and give viewers yet another character to be confused about.

Once you make the decision to put Sansa in that role (for better or worse), the ending scene is logically what comes next. It's shitty, but it's totally consistent with what we know about the characters; it makes sense from the standpoint of Ramsy being a sadistic cunt and Sansa having little control over the situation. I don't know about you, but I'm just glad we didn't get Ramsy dry fingering her then telling Theon to get her wet for him...I just read that scene in the book again and I dreaded what the show might have done with it. All in all I felt somewhat relieved all we really got was Theon's reaction.
 

AkuMifune

Banned
Later on it's also implied that Ramsay has his dogs fuck her, as well.

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I actually don't remember that, but I might have skipped over it if I saw it coming.
 
Even if Sansa wanted to make her move and kill him, there's almost no possible way to just stab him as escape that night. If she's smart, she's going for the long game of ultimate destruction. She doesn't want to stabby stab one Bolton, she wants to decimate their entire existence. Unfortunately, that means waiting. The scene was horrible and what happened to her is horrible, but she had to know this was inevitable if she wanted her plan to play out. Doesn't make it not rape, or justified, but I also don't think it means she is still "just a victim."
 
Holy shit, people are arguing that wasn't a rape? That scene was like D&D wanting to stick it to everyone who wanted to complained about their not-a-rape* (*totally a rape) last season by showing off what their rape would really look like. Like, they wanted to show off how little attention they pay to criticism by flaunting a scene that is even more criticism-worthy. I think they want credit for it not being as bad as the book, and are just ignoring that they changed the story, and needed to adjust that scene further to account for it.

And there is the fundamentally different view we have about the showrunners. You (and many others) think they do things out of spite or because they like to fuck with the audience (especially the book readers), whereas I think they have good reasons for most changes or at least have some greater plan. Some stuff may not work and hasn't worked in the past. But to think they are just jerks that don't give a fuck and mistreat GRRMs work on purpose is disrespectful.
 

TrueBlue

Member
I do have to argue that she did not consent. When she agreed to marry the guy she knew what happened on the wedding night. She agreed to that part even though it horrified her. She knew she would have to consummate it and she already got lucky one... These people killed her brother and she wasn't going to get that lucky again. When she aged to marry him she aged to have seed with him eventually. I think the character would have gone through with it whether it were more romantic or if the entire missing Greyjoy family were watching. I'm not saying she consented just by being there but I think, character wise, in her head she was like "this sucks but let's do it, I agreed to it and let's get it over with". Not defending it and I have another rant against D&d for another time but she consented I think, personally.

Please don't turn this into me defending rape.

An agreement to be married does not carry with it implied consent for sex, so I have to disagree.

Besides, at that time and that moment, she blatantly was not consenting.
 

Brazil

Living in the shadow of Amaz
And there is the fundamentally different view we have about the showrunners. You (and many others) think they do things out of spite or because they like to fuck with the audience (especially the book readers), whereas I think they have good reasons for most changes or at least have some greater plan. Some stuff may not work and hasn't worked in the past. But to think they are just jerks that don't give a fuck and mistreat GRRMs work on purpose is disrespectful.

Stop saying that. No one thinks they're doing these changes and stupid scenes because they're evil.

They're doing it because they're bad at their jobs.
 

Anoregon

The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
Stop saying that. No one thinks they're doing these changes and stupid scenes because they're evil.

They're doing it because they're bad at their jobs.

There are definitely recent posts in this thread saying that D+D are totally gross and just love the idea of showing people rape.
 

Joni

Member
D&D have to be aware that the Sand Snakes stuff turned out really bad. In my head it went like this:

- People love Oberyn. People love that Dornish swagger. Let's go a bit over-the-top with these characters. Three sexy Spanish vipers getting into fights in sunny Seville, what could go wrong?
- Oh no, these actors are nowhere near as good as Pedro Pascal, now all this stuff just sounds cheesy.
- Oh no, these actors can't fight.
- Oh no, these breastplates have nipples on them.
- Oh no, we had to darken up the lighting in post so the breastplate nipples don't stick out as much.

Even before the fan reaction, there's no way they looked at those final cuts and went "Oh yeah, we nailed it."

It is probably really difficult to find the actors that have the right ethnicity, that can speak English and mimic the right accents, and that are willing to do nudes. Fighting and acting skills are too complicated.
 
Man, rewatching the Dorne scene... it's like the sand snakes are straight out of Scooby Doo.

I feel bad for the young actors. They were probably fucking stoked to be playing "three badass sisters" who want to get revenge for one of the most well-liked characters of the entire series.

And then the season happens.

I'm not even sure how this fight scene went down. It was just the three sisters vs Bronn and Jaime at first, right?

So three young "warriors" versus crippled Jaime and Bronn, who is admittedly a great fighter.

Yet, they still somehow have so much trouble with these two dudes that they don't think to have one grab Myrcella until halfway through the fight? Did I miss something?
 
They should have just cut the SS, kept Doran, added Arianne and Oakheart

Agreed. I remember saying it would have made sense to have Arianne and Oakheart last season to establish their "romance" and more importantly to ensure there would be familiar characters in Dorne for the next season. Instead they went with Ellaria which seemed like it would be a good idea...until they decided to turn her into a Scooby Doo villain, and also threw Jaime into the mix.
 

NeoGiff

Member
People keep repeating that Sansa scene was rape. Again: It wasn't rape.

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For fuck sake, this is what we've come to? This completely invalidates the rest of your comment, which I'm not even going to bother reading. I advise you to reevaluate your perception of abuse.

Someone please PM me when the conversation has moved on. This is vile and I want no part in it.
 

bengraven

Member
I'm regretting my own part in the conversation, trust me. I'm not even the passionate about my own opinion either way, was just discussing.

Ah I see we're at the point of "it can't be rape because they were married".

I really hope that wasn't how mine came off of, because that really wasn't my point.
 

Iksenpets

Banned
And there is the fundamentally different view we have about the showrunners. You (and many others) think they do things out of spite or because they like to fuck with the audience (especially the book readers), whereas I think they have good reasons for most changes or at least have some greater plan. Some stuff may not work and hasn't worked in the past. But to think they are just jerks that don't give a fuck and mistreat GRRMs work on purpose is disrespectful.

Ok, I don't want to get hyperbolic on D&D. I like a lot of the changes they've done. More than I think most people do. And I think they're actually really solid writers, in terms of the dialogue they put out. They've pulled off a pretty incredible task putting together a great show. But I also do think they deal with criticism poorly, and that they did not adequately address the fallout of the Jaime/Cersei scene last season. Their response was just to defend, defend, defend, and the result is them repeating the same errors again this season, after having already burned up a lot of good will people may have had for them, at least on the subject of sexual violence.
 

Brakke

Banned
Of course Sansa was going to be raped. I liked that scene where she pulled claws on Myranda. Like. Cute, Sansa, but that lady knows how to use knives and you Absolutely Do Not.

Sand Snake fight with the whip was ridiculous.

Face Wall was rad.

Pumped about Howland's big plays.

Disappointed in my boy Olivar. ;_;

Stop saying that. No one thinks they're doing these changes and stupid scenes because they're evil.

They're doing it because they're bad at their jobs.

I mean their job was to create a successful TV show on HBO and they did that better than anyone else ever has ever so...?
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
This isn't about sex. This is about rape and abuse. Sansa isn't "playing the game" she isn't seducing Ramsay as she (TWOW material)
starts to seduce Harry the Heir
she is being raped. The fact that she is "allowing" this rape is inconsequential, she never had a choice. LF basically forced her to marry Ramsay and go off with the Boltons this wasn't the choice of some "strong woman" doing whatever is necessary to retake her homeland. No, this is the tale of an abused little girl being used and played with by powerful men routinely. She isn't playing or even learning to play the game, she is learning to just bend over and take it with the hopes that maybe it will get better later on.
Daenerys' storyline as Drogo's wife had similar beginnings. It is also implied that her childhood under Viserys' thumb wasn't the best of times, either.
 

TrueBlue

Member
I'm regretting my own part in the conversation, trust me. I'm not even the passionate about my own opinion either way, was just discussing.



I really hope that wasn't how mine came off of, because that really wasn't my point.

Your argument basically amounted to: When she agreed to marry him, she knew it was coming, therefore she had consent because she wanted to get it over with.

So unfortunately, that is how it came off. At least to me.
 

Speevy

Banned
They could have easily mitigated the acting/cheesiness.

Ellaria says "We have to do something. Oberyn died because of these Lannisters. I've heard that Jaime is here in Dorne. Myrcella is in the water gardens.'

*show three angry girls*

Bronn is walking carefree

*spear hits him from nowhere, falls down dead*

*Myrcella is in her bedroom, one of the sand snakes sneaks in the room*

*Areo Hotah walks in, arrests that one, finds the others*


No one had to act badly, no one had to do any bad fighting, and for all we know the sand snakes are awesome in battle.

Usually directors are aware of the limitations of their actors.
 

Kain

Member
I feel bad for the young actors. They were probably fucking stoked to be playing "three badass sisters" who want to get revenge for one of the most well-liked characters of the entire series.

And then the season happens.

I'm not even sure how this fight scene went down. It was just the three sisters vs Bronn and Jaime at first, right?

So three young "warriors" versus crippled Jaime and Bronn, who is admittedly a great fighter.

Yet, they still somehow have so much trouble with these two dudes that they don't think to have one grab Myrcella until halfway through the fight? Did I miss something?

The sand snakes sound good on paper, but the execution has been horrible. None of them take part in the Queenmaker plot and mostly everyone who knows them is scared shitless of their deeds and intentions (remember the maester checking for puncture wounds in his body after Tyene touches him?). These girls we have in the show are straight out of a cartoon and are completely laughable. And the problem lies with the writing, the actresses were probably told "you are fighters and daughters of Oberyn, go and demonstrate the fight moves we have taught you in a couple of days and remember to growl and put on angry faces all the time".

The High Sparrow is not the one from the books either but we know Cersei does the walk, so he can be saved after all.

And a last thought: Alfie Allen is a beast, he does the Reek part very well. A pity he doesn't have more lines, but it's understandable. I would have liked to see the first Reek chapter straight out ADWD but oh well. Ramsay is good too even though he is nothing like Book Ramsay.
 

Brazil

Living in the shadow of Amaz
I mean their job was to create a successful TV show on HBO and they did that better than anyone else ever has ever so...?

I guess they did.

Too bad George won't be able to hold their hands through it for the final seasons, though. I'll love to have this argument again once seasons 6 and 7 are over.
 

TRios Zen

Member
An agreement to be married does not carry with it implied consent for sex, so I have to disagree.

Besides, at that time and that moment, she blatantly was not consenting.

I would argue that in the show universe (as we've seen bedding rituals at multiple weddings), an agreement to wed does carry with it a consent for sex.

But this seems like a silly thing to discuss; whether someone calls it rape or not. What I mean is, I think most acknowledge that Sansa was the victim here (yet again) unfortunately. I think the better discussion is around when do we see her character transcend the "damsel in distress" in need of saving into the bad ass that I think most of us would like to see her become.

This season seems to be building numerous payoffs (Arya arc, Sansa arc, Mannis arc, Jaime arc, Jorah arc) that if they don't start delivering on soon will be disappointing.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Within her character's arc, it would have made more "sense" for Sansa and Ramsay to arrive in the bedroom just exactly as they did, for Sansa to initially show hesitation, but to overcome her fear by applying the lessons that she's learned from all her past tragedies. I think some viewers/readers expected Sansa to at least fake being into it after getting past that initial hesitation in order to bait Ramsay into placing his trust in her, which she would ultimately use to betray and overthrow the Boltons when justice finally comes.
At least Dany had Doreah to teach her how to fuck properly. How does it make "sense" for Sansa? Who taught her how to seduce men, Littlefinger? This scene either exposes the lie that Littlefinger fed her to convince her to go along with his plan, or it is the catalyst for her to become the woman she needs to be in order to seize control, much like Dany was forced to do.
 

bengraven

Member
Your argument basically amounted to: When she agreed to marry him, she knew it was coming, therefore she had consent because she wanted to get it over with.

So unfortunately, that is how it came off. At least to me.

I'm going to just finish this because I'm not a fan of hole digging but you at least do have the gist of what I was saying, but it's not the entire point. It's not as cut and dry as if I were saying "she asked for it because she agreed to marry" because that wasn't my intention.

Someone pointed out the three things that made it rape and I agreed with two of the three. The third though: I do think she agreed to have sex, at that moment even, but then again it would take someone being inside her head or inner monologue to know exactly what she was thinking. I hated the scene, I felt uncomfortable as fuck the entire time and I've been dreading since the rumors of her marrying him. I knew he was going to rape her, that she wasn't going to want to go through with it. But watching the scene, in my opinion, she looked like she was accepting it, even though it tore her and the audience apart.

(and to think there were people saying we were "white knighting her virginity". I'd love to see what they're saying now)
 

TrueBlue

Member
I would argue that in the show universe (as we've seen bedding rituals at multiple weddings), an agreement to wed does carry with it a consent for sex.

But this seems like a silly thing to discuss; whether someone calls it rape or not. What I mean is, I think most acknowledge that Sansa was the victim here (yet again) unfortunately. I think the better discussion is around when do we see her character transcend the "damsel in distress" in need of saving into the bad ass that I think most of us would like to see her become.

This season seems to be building numerous payoffs (Arya arc, Sansa arc, Mannis arc, Jaime arc, Jorah arc) that if they don't start delivering on soon will be disappointing.

I'm not too sure, considering the existence of arranged marriages in the univserse and such. If someone doesn't have a choice when it comes down to it, then I don't think that's consent.

I do agree that the rape discussion is diverting away from the possible slight it has had on Sansa's character, but I wouldn't call it silly.
 
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