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[Anton Sugar]

Why is Bronn allowed to keep his weapon after everyone else has dropped theirs? It's like they don't care what he does.

The episode had a higher-than-normal number of pointless or puzzling moments.

"Drop your weapons!"
"I am Obara Sand blah blah blah!" <--ooooh shit, are the Sand Snakes gonna fight their way out???
"Drop your weapons!"
"Okay."

 

[RedShift]

Guess the show has jumped the Stark.

I mean Jesus Christ. This is what happens when your only criteria for getting to make a show is being able to figure out the deep mystery that is R + L = J.

 

[Snake]

Eh? Preferring the narrative directions in the books is far from embarrassing. The decision to go even harder in with sex in the TV series is embarassing while cutting out significant plot elements is embarrassing...

I prefer the narrative direction in the books, that's not the point. My problem with book purism is when a desire for adherence to the text becomes the sole point of criticism instead of addressing the show as its own thing. And I was giving an example of the show failing on its own terms, rather than criticizing it for not displaying specific book material.

 

[beril]

I have a feeling a combination of Stannis losing and Jon getting stabbed will tank the series. I was legit shook when I googled Jon Snow and found out he gets stabbed. I mean, like I could never actually read these books. I like books were the reader isn't shit on constantly.

People can only take the "good guys" losing so much before they say fuck it, no more literary torture.

That said I still believe Ep 1 of the next season or in GRRM's next book will have him Jon alive and in a coma.

From what I understand GRRM has never killed a main POV character from their own POV. Furthermore what is the point of Jon's lineage hinting if there is no payoff?

Catelyn was killed from her own POV IIRC

 

[StopMakingSense]

God that fight was so bad. So much awkward standing about and doing fuck all. I can't remember a worse filmed fight scene in recent memory. The whole Donre thing was by far the clumsiest thing in the entire series. Jamie and Bronn just wandering in and then just sneaking about with no one else around in the Water Gardens.

 

[Hex]

Comparing it to Reek is pretty uneven, considering a huge part of Reek/Theon's arc comes directly from his torture and disfiguring.

Adding brutality "just because" is sloppy and, at worst, irresponsible. It's not an effective way to tell a story, especially when we have had 4+ seasons that SHOW us how brutal the world is. It's tiring.

It's especially tiring because we, as viewers, have NO reason to expect that Sansa's rape (or sexual abuse or whatever you want to call it) will lead to any meaningful development or character growth. Cersei certainly didn't, but that's partly because the directors/producers (or whomever) didn't think it was rape. Since it sounds like the same is going to happen here, it'll just be "another day in Westeros!" At this point, Sansa has almost been through it all except sexual abuse, so it feels like a cheap "checkbox" kind of scene that likely won't add much to her character or her story.

Like I said, there are plenty of opportunities to show Ramsey's animal side without resorting to sexual trauma on a character whose entire existence for the past few years have been defined by trauma.



"She's always been shitty, so why should we expect the creators to make her better?"

She may not have any.
Expectations may be part of the issue,
She may be there just to be a victim, or she may be there to be survivor and overcome hellish odds, or she may be there just to die brutally.
Movies and shows in many ways should be partly roller coaster rides.
Thinking you know what is coming, or "this person has been through this so it HAS to mean this is coming" is something people do to themselves.
Myself , I think that there will be a hell of a reckoning.
Sansa has learned her lessons from Littlefinger very well.

 

[-griffy-]

Since it sounds like the same is going to happen here, it'll just be "another day in Westeros!" At this point, Sansa has almost been through it all except sexual abuse, so it feels like a cheap "checkbox" kind of scene that likely won't add much to her character or her story.

Why does it sound like the same is going to happen here compared to the Jaime/Cersei scenario? The interviews I read with Cogman and Sophie Turner didn't seem to be conflicting as far as intent, execution, and the audience reaction. Here it seems like the intent and execution was 100% in agreement, even going so far as to play the credits in silence for an extended period to emphasize the seriousness of what happened. It will obviously be an inciting incident that causes Sansa to take action and try to secure her and Theon's escape and possibly beginning the northern uprising, while also the chance for sympathy to build and explore with Theon as two people who have suffered abuse under Ramsay. It seems like there will be direct consequences and character exploration in this case, rather than glossing over because the intent and execution of the scene were weirdly mismatched and not fully considered. Sansa's experience causing her to realize Theon is also a victim actually seems like some interesting material to mine from this.

 

[BobTheFork]

The Walk of Shame may make things worse, given the particular nature of some of the complaints. Even of that scene is really good, and completely faithful to the book, there are going to be a subset of viewers upset about Sansa who will be predisposed to see it as just another scene demeaning a female character. Obviously Cersei isn't Sansa, but that scene's going to bring its own controversy, especially with non-book readers who won't be suspecting it.



Sorry if I annoyed with the snark. I really do like D&D! That was more of a teasing out of love joke for me, but I guess wth the current tone of the thread and my own posts that maybe doesn't come off.

Yeah sorry. That wasn't supposed to be a shot at you but we've already seen about a hundred of those jokes in the last 18 hours and I imagine many more to come.

I really think it's going to ruin the next conversation people want to have about something they like on the show.

 

[nelsonroyale]

In regards to why people may be more distressed by Sansa's treatment rather than Jayne's, it is entirely obvious. This is a story not real life. Jayne is a minor character who we as the readers have little reason to have too much attachment too. Sansa on the other hand is a major character who whether you her or not, you are likely to have formed greater attachment too. It is perfectly obvious why the Jayne scenes might revolt the reader, but have far less impact. For me personally, I would have prefered to go with the Jayne plot line...as much as I disliked it anyway.

I prefer the narrative direction in the books, that's not the point. My problem with book purism is when a desire for adherence to the text becomes the sole point of criticism instead of addressing the show as its own thing. And I was giving an example of the show failing on its own terms, rather than criticizing it for not displaying specific book material.

Fair point for sure. I get you.

 

[NeoGiff]

Yeah sorry. That wasn't supposed to be a shot at you but we've already seen about a hundred of those jokes in the last 18 hours and I imagine many more to come.

I really think it's going to ruin the next conversation people want to have about something they like on the show.

We can just replace the Obara part with the latest weekly nonsense. It's perfect!

 

[schlongdog]

Christ, I fucking hate Obara's face

 

[-griffy-]

We can just replace the Obara part with the latest weekly nonsense. It's perfect!

Can you somehow combine Olenna carriage with Mace walk into an ultimate self-contained reaction gif?

 

[hoos30]

Yes I believe there is a word for that

In our world, not that one.

 

[BobTheFork]

We can just replace the Obara part with the latest weekly nonsense. It's perfect!

lol damnit, that gif will still be funny. I actually agree about the Sand Snakes being bad.

It needs to be that Natalie Dormer gif (her in the pool with the eyebrow raise at the end).

 

[NeoGiff]

Can you somehow combine Olenna carriage with Mace walk into an ultimate self-contained reaction gif?

Absolutely. Can you explain it to me in more detail?

 

[Burt]

Comparing it to Reek is pretty uneven, considering a huge part of Reek/Theon's arc comes directly from his torture and disfiguring.

Adding brutality "just because" is sloppy and, at worst, irresponsible. It's not an effective way to tell a story, especially when we have had 4+ seasons that SHOW us how brutal the world is. It's tiring.

Littlefinger needed Sansa to marry the Boltons in order to play all three sides in the coming conflict. Expecting Ramsay, literally the biggest sadist we've ever known in the world of ASOIAF, not rape Sansa on their wedding night is just wishing for plot armor or some deus ex machina. They screwed up bad with Jamie and Cersei, but this time it played out true.

It's especially tiring because we, as viewers, have NO reason to expect that Sansa's rape (or sexual abuse or whatever you want to call it) will lead to any meaningful development or character growth. Cersei certainly didn't, but that's partly because the directors/producers (or whomever) didn't think it was rape. Since it sounds like the same is going to happen here, it'll just be "another day in Westeros!" At this point, Sansa has almost been through it all except sexual abuse, so it feels like a cheap "checkbox" kind of scene that likely won't add much to her character or her story.

Like I said, there are plenty of opportunities to show Ramsey's animal side without resorting to sexual trauma on a character whose entire existence for the past few years have been defined by trauma.

You don't need a reason to expect that Sansa's rape will lead to any meaningful development. You don't always get to have that in the moment. Was anyone thinking of Theon's development when he was getting his junk sliced off? You can't always see the (coming) growth in the moment, and you shouldn't. That's just yearning for wish-fulfillment. Maybe this is the moment where Sansa realizes that Littlefinger sold her off to an abusive psychopath and that he's no different than anyone else using her, so it's this moment in which she resolves to kill him some day. Maybe it's a cheap checkbox moment that won't do anything at all. But it's hard to say either way when we literally haven't seen one second past the event itself.

 

[ultron87]

She may not have any.
Expectations may be part of the issue,
She may be there just to be a victim, or she may be there to be survivor and overcome hellish odds, or she may be there just to die brutally.
Movies and shows in many ways should be partly roller coaster rides.
Thinking you know what is coming, or "this person has been through this so it HAS to mean this is coming" is something people do to themselves.
Myself , I think that there will be a hell of a reckoning.
Sansa has learned her lessons from Littlefinger very well.

If her entire purpose as a protagonist on this show is to die brutally at Ramsey's hands this is bad story telling. Being gritty and realistic is fine but it doesn't excuse you from telling a good story. Stories, and the characters within them, have arcs. They have to go somewhere or change or at least serve a purpose to the plot to justify the time spent with them. If Sansa's purpose is "naive girl -> abused by Joffrey -> creeped on by Littlefinger but becoming somewhat self assured -> abused by Ramsey who eventually kills her" it is a bad character arc and story that we wouldn't have needed to follow or invest in.

There has to be something more coming than that. So by that token, the rape doesn't actually accomplish anything. She's already had the abuse and getting controlled by the men around her and is clearly ready to assert herself in some capacity, even if she isn't as capable as she thinks she is. Honestly, if they had just had made it more clear she was more prepared for her wedding night and not ended the episode with her screaming it would've been better. It'd at least show she was making a choice that she was prepared to make.

 

[Iksenpets]

Yeah sorry. That wasn't supposed to be a shot at you but we've already seen about a hundred of those jokes in the last 18 hours and I imagine many more to come.

I really think it's going to ruin the next conversation people want to have about something they like on the show.

Yeah, I mean things are going to be mostly negative after that episode, but I do hope we all calm down once the disappointment at this ep is worked out of our systems, and hopefully next episode gives us things to praise again.

Again, to be positive, I think pretty much the whole cast except for the Dornish characters have been on fire. I wish we could give Emmy's to all of them. Maybe an Emmy for highest ratio of acting quality to lines spoken for Alfie Allen.

And to be extra nice to the Dornish characters, I really do think they were limited by the short filming time they had in Spain. Also by forcing everyone to have the accent. This could all probably be going so much better if they didn't have to be doing the accent.

 

[-griffy-]

Absolutely. Can you explain it to me in more detail?

I don't know, the more I think about it I can't figure out a way to combine them to make it self contained without a specific shot in the middle for them both to react to. But {Mace walks in, Olenna opens window [insert_thing_here], Olenna closes window, Mace retreats} might make a good hybrid. That Olenna set up is a freaking perfect gif though, you can literally put anything in the middle and it will work. That could be the only gif E3 needs this year.

 

[BobTheFork]

Absolutely. Can you explain it to me in more detail?

I imagine she looks out of the window, sees MAce walking forward, closes the window in disgust and then he walks backwards away.

 

[A-V-B]

PffFft, previous Myrcella is superior

She had a really fun vine presence, too. She loved the show and her character. Damn shame she lost it.

 

[Asami208]

Hey I hated that subplot in the book as well. It was completely unnecessary there as well, imo. The show just made it 10x worse by having it be a character who's story we've been following for 4+ seasons, and that story has been essentially one traumatic thing happening to her after enough with no end.

So it's not only pointless and gratituous, it's also boring and predictable. Ned's death, not predictable. The Red Wedding, not predictable, Oberyn's death, not predictable, and so on. This, been calling it for months, completely predictable.

 

[Iksenpets]

I don't know, the more I think about it I can't figure out a way to combine them to make it self contained without a specific shot in the middle for them both to react to. But {Mace walks in, Olenna opens window [insert_thing_here], Olenna closes window, Mace retreats} might make a good hybrid. That Olenna set up is a freaking perfect gif though, you can literally put anything in the middle and it will work. That could be the only gif E3 needs this year.

Olenna looking out window > Mace walks in > Olenna shakes head, closes window > Mace walks out

Edit: Misread you. That's exactly what you proposed. Whoops.

 

[Anton Sugar]

what other opportunities than an attack on herself were there to make her finally flee that place?

With Ramsey, there is a treasure trove of incidents that could be horrifying enough to incite her to leave. Their banner is a skinned man. They can come up with something, outside of rape, that would make her want to leave and/or get revenge. Like, said, the knowledge that Ramsey's dad murdered your king brother and Ramsey is a psychopath.

You don't need a reason to expect that Sansa's rape will lead to any meaningful development. You don't always get to have that in the moment. Was anyone thinking of Theon's development when he was getting his junk sliced off? You can't always see the (coming) growth in the moment, and you shouldn't. That's just yearning for wish-fulfillment. Maybe this is the moment where Sansa realizes that Littlefinger sold her off to an abusive psychopath and that he's no different than anyone else using her, so it's this moment in which she resolves to kill him some day. Maybe it's a cheap checkbox moment that won't do anything at all. But it's hard to say either way when we literally haven't seen one second past the event itself.

Why does it sound like the same is going to happen here compared to the Jaime/Cersei scenario? The interviews I read with Cogman and Sophie Turner didn't seem to be conflicting as far as intent, execution, and the audience reaction.

The interview where they said the wedding scene was a "hardened woman making a choice" or Sophie Turner joking about D&D doing everything they can to make Sophie an abused character?

I could be wrong. Maybe next week's episode will deal with it head on--I don't really have any reason to think that though, cold close or not. In the hands of better writers, surely--but not with this series.

She may not have any.
Expectations may be part of the issue,
She may be there just to be a victim, or she may be there to be survivor and overcome hellish odds, or she may be there just to die brutally.
Movies and shows in many ways should be partly roller coaster rides.
Thinking you know what is coming, or "this person has been through this so it HAS to mean this is coming" is something people do to themselves.
Myself , I think that there will be a hell of a reckoning.
Sansa has learned her lessons from Littlefinger very well.

D&D aren't carving some No Country for Old Men pessimist narrative here. The "anyone can die" veneer has dulled in the past few seasons and the brutality is boring, IMO. It feels too often that the gore and brutality are set dressing by D&D in a cheap attempt to keep you interested and/or shocked, like that defector Crow whose scene involved drinking from Mormont's skull WHILE a woman was being raped in the background, the whole time.

We get it--these are bad people. After a certain point, it's offensive AND boring.

 

[-griffy-]

I imagine she looks out of the window, sees MAce walking forward, closes the window in disgust and then he walks backwards away.

Olenna looking out window > Mace walks in > Olenna shakes head, closes window > Mace walks out

This could work too.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

What happens to Jeyne in the book is horrible, but Sansa is a character whose head we have been in, whose story we know, and to some extent our sense of the entire Stark clan rests with-- the only one who was somewhat similar to her innocent, earlier self.

The act was less despicable (and graphic) but it's happening to a character we care more about.

What was done to the butcher's boy in season one was worse than rape, and we're not still talking about that. Because he was a minor character that we knew little about.

 

[KooopaKid]

Another question, is the Faith Militia in the books as well? They have gained power so fast! Is the "trial" there as well?

 

[Asami208]

Honestly, I'm not too surprised. The show has garnered a number of "I think I might be done with GoT" articles in the past due to the creators weird relationship with sexual abuse/treatment of women.



It also cheapens the "development" they gave him earlier in the season, where it seemed like him standing up to Cersei was going to be a point of conflict. But nope, it was just a cheap device to get Cersei to resort to extreme measures.

I'm surprised that TMS (I actually post there from time to time myself) didn't do this after the Jamie/Cersei fiasco last season. The writers basically changed that scene in order to make it more "rapey." But TMS attitude was essentially "we'll keep watching because there's still good stuff here. But we're not letting the showrunners get away with this shit anymore." And said showrunners DID IT AGAIN only a season later. So no, I don't blame the site from going "we're done with this shit."

 

[Demon Ice]

Your wish...

...is my command.

Oh my god lol

 

[Electric_ Cthulhu]

And to be extra nice to the Dornish characters, I really do think they were limited by the short filming time they had in Spain. Also by forcing everyone to have the accent. This could all probably be going so much better if they didn't have to be doing the accent.

Keisha Castle-Hughes (Obara) is actually a pretty decent actress. But if you have to look all day like you just took a huge dump in your pants, it doesn't help.

 

[Moff]

With Ramsey, there is a treasure trove of incidents that could be horrifying enough to incite her to leave. Their banner is a skinned man. They can come up with something, outside of rape, that would make her want to leave and/or get revenge. Like, said, the knowledge that Ramsey's dad murdered your king brother and Ramsey is a psychopath.

I don't understand, she already knew that, as I pointed out in the post you quoted.
but anyway, even if anyone would come up with a comprehensible alternative to the rape scene, which I still would love to read, my point was that the reaction that her rape served no meaning is simply wrong. it does serve a meaning, it will make her flee.

 

[ultron87]

What was done to the butcher's boy in season one was worse than rape, and we're not still talking about that. Because he was a minor character that we knew little about.

The ramifications of that were actually dealt with a ton in the story! Had more impact than any of the rapes so far.

 

[Croatoan]

I thought it was a painfully obvious that Sansa's rape had nothing to do with furthering her character or story arc and everything to do with giving Theon a path to redemption.

They literally "Damsel in Distressed" Sansa after making a point to show her becoming a stronger more capable woman.

Because of that I can understand the outrage.

Would have been better if Sansa had showed some backbone and played the seductress role from the second she came back to Winterfell. I guess that is asking too much of her character though. She would still have lost her virginity but at least she could have had SOME control over it.

But nope this is Game of Thrones example #108 of why the weak get fucked and the honorable get dead. Kinda tiring...

 

[Cybit]

I thought it was a painfully obvious that Sansa's rape had nothing to do with furthering her character or story arc and everything to do with giving Theon a path to redemption.

They literally "Damsel in Distressed" Sansa after making a point to show her becoming a stronger more capable woman.

Eh - this is GoT. We should probably know better than to assume much of anything about what is going to happen next. Which makes much of the criticism kind of ironic, in context.

 

[Moff]

Another question, is the Faith Militia in the books as well? They have gained power so fast! Is the "trial" there as well?

the faith militia is there as well, and cerseis motivations are not really comprehensible either. but I think it was even faster in the show and I honestly wondered why no one complained about that in both threads here. well except me.

 

[-griffy-]

The interview where they said the wedding scene was a "hardened woman making a choice" or Sophie Turner joking about D&D doing everything they can to make Sophie an abused character?

I don't think Cogman was saying the wedding night scene was a hardened Sansa making a choice to be raped, but the scenario was a hardened Sansa making the choice to enter into the overall situation. Which is accurate and reflected in what happened in the show. Sansa agreed to put herself in this dangerous situation in order to try and get some revenge for her family.
His next sentence is (emphasis mine) "Sansa has a wedding night in the sense she never thought she would with one of the monsters of the show." This suggests the wedding night act is not something she made a choice to enter, it's something she never thought of. And then "It&#8217;s pretty intense and awful and the character will have to deal with it." This suggests the character will be dealing with the repercussions going forward.

I don't know that a Sophie Turner joke should be fair game as far as criticizing the scene or intent.

There was nothing like the wild inconsistencies of the director of the Jaime/Cersei episode blatantly saying the scene wasn't intended as rape and was supposed to become consensual, and then D&D blatantly calling the scene rape in the Inside the Episode video.

 

[NeoGiff]

I'll forgo milking the Tyrell gifs for the moment. Don't want them to get old too fast!

 

[A-V-B]

Of course I do, and in order for the show to have shoehorned that in would have completely brought the scene to a screeching halt as a bunch of exposition is dumped in order to properly explain the circumstances and let the revelation even make any kind of sense. The show doesn't have the luxury of having chapters upon chapters of Tyrion inner monologue constantly reminding the reader of Tysha. As GRRM said, the show is the show and the book is the book. The way the show set it up worked for the show.

My dad was a show watcher, never read the books. After Season 4, I gave him a quick refresher on Tysha by showing him the scene from the camp in Season 1, then I gave him Jaime's confession in SoS where he tells Tyrion what happened. My dad was absolutely livid and wanted to kill Tywin himself.

It's such a basic, primal storyline, you just need the info once and Tyrion's reaction to the news, and people want Tywin dead immediately.

It's D&D's faults for not setting it up like proper visual storytellers. It wouldn't've needed much. I mean, they went back on their "no flashbacks" principle this season, so why'd they ever stick to it?

But whatever. Some people are affected by its absence, some people don't give a toss.

 

[RedShift]

Another question, is the Faith Militia in the books as well? They have gained power so fast! Is the "trial" there as well?

In the books Renly and Loras aren't gay stereotypes from a Carry On film, and as far as we know they only slept with each other. Instead Cersei makes up some stuff about Maergery sleeping with various people, and she's the one who gets arrested.

Loras is off being an awesome warrior and mourning the love of his life, not hanging around in brothels 24/7.

 

[Liquidsnake]

If I was Ramsey,

I would get to know Sansa, what she likes what she doesn't like. I would take long walks with her in the North. Our wedding night would be magic,

 

[Patriots7]

You don't need a reason to expect that Sansa's rape will lead to any meaningful development. You don't always get to have that in the moment. Was anyone thinking of Theon's development when he was getting his junk sliced off? You can't always see the (coming) growth in the moment, and you shouldn't. That's just yearning for wish-fulfillment. Maybe this is the moment where Sansa realizes that Littlefinger sold her off to an abusive psychopath and that he's no different than anyone else using her, so it's this moment in which she resolves to kill him some day. Maybe it's a cheap checkbox moment that won't do anything at all. But it's hard to say either way when we literally haven't seen one second past the event itself.

She needs to be raped to realize not to trust Littlefinger?
In the books, she had that moment when she reflected that it was the Hound that saved her from being assaulted, Tyrion who stopped Joffrey at times and Garlan who comforted her after her wedding. Littlefinger was never there to help her, implying she is well aware that Littlefinger is not her knight in shining armor.

 

[Anton Sugar]

I don't think Cogman was saying the wedding night scene was a hardened Sansa making a choice to be raped, but the scenario was a hardened Sansa making the choice to enter into the overall situation. Which is accurate and reflected in what happened in the show. Sansa agreed to put herself in this dangerous situation in order to try and get some revenge for her family.
His next sentence is (emphasis mine) "Sansa has a wedding night in the sense she never thought she would with one of the monsters of the show." This suggests the wedding night act is not something she made a choice to enter, it's something she never thought of. And then "It&#8217;s pretty intense and awful and the character will have to deal with it." This suggests the character will be dealing with the repercussions going forward.

I don't know that a Sophie Turner joke should be fair game as far as criticizing the scene or intent.

There was nothing like the wild inconsistencies of the director of the Jaime/Cersei episode blatantly saying the scene wasn't intended as rape and was supposed to become consensual, and then D&D blatantly calling the scene rape in the Inside the Episode video.

Maybe you just have a lot more faith in this show than I do It's starting to approach The Walking Dead-levels of disinterest (and quality) for me.

 

[Asami208]

I don't think Cogman was saying the wedding night scene was a hardened Sansa making a choice to be raped, but the scenario was a hardened Sansa making the choice to enter into the overall situation. Which is accurate and reflected in what happened in the show. Sansa agreed to put herself in this dangerous situation in order to try and get some revenge for her family.
His next sentence is (emphasis mine) "Sansa has a wedding night in the sense she never thought she would with one of the monsters of the show." This suggests the wedding night act is not something she made a choice to enter, it's something she never thought of. And then "It&#8217;s pretty intense and awful and the character will have to deal with it." This suggests the character will be dealing with the repercussions going forward.

I don't know that a Sophie Turner joke should be fair game as far as criticizing the scene or intent.

There was nothing like the wild inconsistencies of the director of the Jaime/Cersei episode blatantly saying the scene wasn't intended as rape and was supposed to become consensual, and then D&D blatantly calling the scene rape in the Inside the Episode video.

Except that I don't buy her agreeing to do this in the first place, nor do I buy LF "not knowing" about Ramsay, bullshit writers. And I CERTAINLY don't trust these writers to handle the repercussions of this well. They've given me NO reason to trust them on this front, their track record is terrible in that regard.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

The ramifications of that were actually dealt with a ton in the story! Had more impact than any of the rapes so far.

Maybe not the best example. I was just trying to point out that how closely we identify with or care about a character makes a big difference in how we react to what happens to them.

These aren't people, nobody was actually raped. But we the audience were "treated" to somebody we potentially cared a lot about being raped, and that's not cool, and it's not the same thing as it happening to a minor character.

 

[BobTheFork]

I thought it was a painfully obvious that Sansa's rape had nothing to do with furthering her character or story arc and everything to do with giving Theon a path to redemption.

They literally "Damsel in Distressed" Sansa after making a point to show her becoming a stronger more capable woman.

Because of that I can understand the outrage.

Would have been better if Sansa had showed some backbone and played the seductress role from the second she came back to Winterfell. I guess that is asking too much of her character though.

What so you expect, it's the same shit they did with Arya in the books.. The only reason Rob and Cat were killed was so that Arya could narrowly miss seeing family members to torture her. It didn't build her character, it just forced a plot line. She only went to Bravoss was because she didn't have anywhere else to go so she kills people like a mini terminator with plot armor until it's magically time to leave and two good characters had to die. So fucking forced : (

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Maybe there would be a point to the abuse if Sansa was hardened from her past experiences and her learning of the game, however she's just portrayed as a helpless victim. It's not a huge step up from the way that all the women seem to be treated on the show, but if she actually got close to Ramsey so she could butcher the family who massacred her own it would be a natural progression of her character.

 

[nelsonroyale]

In the books Renly and Loras aren't gay stereotypes from a Carry On film, and as far as we know they only slept with each other. Instead Cersei makes up some stuff about Maergery sleeping with various people, and she's the one who gets arrested.

Loras is off being an awesome warrior and mourning the love of his life, not hanging around in brothels 24/7.

Yeah, Loras is actually more capable.

 

[bengraven]

GRRM has responded.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/

I am getting a flood of emails and off-topic comments on this blog about tonight's episode of GAME OF THRONES. It's not unanticipated.

The comments... regardless of tone... have been deleted. I have been saying since season one that this is not the place to debate or discuss the TV series. Please respect that.

There are better places for such discussions: Westeros, Tower of the Hand, Watchers on the Wall, Winter Is Coming, the comments sections of the television critics who regularly follow the show: James Hibberd, Alyssa Rosenberg, Mo Ryan, James Poniewozik, and their colleagues. I am sure all those sites will be having a healthy debate.

I have a lot of fans asking me for comment.

Let me reiterate what I have said before.

How many children did Scarlett O'Hara have? Three, in the novel. One, in the movie. None, in real life: she was a fictional character, she never existed. The show is the show, the books are the books; two different tellings of the same story.

There have been differences between the novels and the television show since the first episode of season one. And for just as long, I have been talking about the butterfly effect. Small changes lead to larger changes lead to huge changes. HBO is more than forty hours into the impossible and demanding task of adapting my lengthy (extremely) and complex (exceedingly) novels, with their layers of plots and subplots, their twists and contradictions and unreliable narrators, viewpoint shifts and ambiguities, and a cast of characters in the hundreds.

There has seldom been any TV series as faithful to its source material, by and large (if you doubt that, talk to the Harry Dresden fans, or readers of the Sookie Stackhouse novels, or the fans of the original WALKING DEAD comic books)... but the longer the show goes on, the bigger the butterflies become. And now we have reached the point where the beat of butterfly wings is stirring up storms, like the one presently engulfing my email.

Prose and television have different strengths, different weaknesses, different requirements.

David and Dan and Bryan and HBO are trying to make the best television series that they can.

And over here I am trying to write the best novels that I can.

And yes, more and more, they differ. Two roads diverging in the dark of the woods, I suppose... but all of us are still intending that at the end we will arrive at the same place.

In the meantime, we hope that the readers and viewers both enjoy the journey. Or journeys, as the case may be. Sometimes butterflies grow into dragons.

((I am closing comments on this post. Take your discussions to the other sites I have mentioned. And for those who may be curious as to the road the books are taking, I direct you to the WINDS OF WINTER sample chapters on my website)).

That last line...

"She's not with Ramsay in the books, so..."

 

[Speevy]

While this show botches a lot of characterizations, one thing I like is that once they settle on one, they usually don't wildly shift from it.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Maybe there would be a point to the abuse if Sansa was hardened from her past experiences and her learning of the game, however she's just portrayed as a helpless victim. It's not a huge step up from the way that all the women seem to be treated on the show, but if she actually got close to Ramsey so she could butcher the family who massacred her own it would be a natural progression of her character.

That's what I thought her time at the Eyrie would be: Littlefinger teaching her how to blend in, how to "play the game", etc., in preparation for this. We did get a bit of that, but beyond her tiny little moment with Myranda, she doesn't seem that different.