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[Brakke]

LF's brains? She hasn't shown any cunning aside from pulling of a sob story after Lysa's death. That was nothing really. An easy circumstance to exploit.

The point is that's how LF characterized her, as the daughter of Cat and himself. Sansa didn't protest that by reminding the dude that Ned was her dad. A Stark would assert their Stark blood. Jon was on the precipice of forgoing his Watch vows in exchange for the name he always wanted. Dude wrestled with that shit. Jon knows the name of Stark is worth risking life and limb, is something to be proud of and assert. Jon is such a great fucking Stark that he declined the Stark name to rock the Stark spirit. Sansa just lets LF's slight slide. She even learns her family history from LF in the crypt... Arya would know about Lyanna on her own. Shit, Arya *is* Lyanna come again. Arya *can't* even lie her way out of being a Stark. In this very episode, dude sees right through her lie to her undeniable Stark self. She keeps Needle! Sansa has no such connection to Stark.

If your claim is she's not only missing the Stark steel but also the Baelish wit then yes I would agree with you. She's a useless flowerpot idiot.

Everyone wants her to blast Ramsay because they love Stark and they hate Ramsay but it's weird to expect Sansa to do that herself since she's not a Stark in any way that matters. If the North rose in support of her it'd be in support of her name, not in support of her personal worth. The people who marched south with Robb to avenge Ned would be flabbergasted by this Southron doofus sitting under a wolf banner.

We want Sansa's North story to be about her finding her Stark roots. But so far the only W she's put up since coming to Winterfell was her LF-esque slam on Myranda (which didn't even accomplish anything for her...).

Save some dramatic shift in her arc, she's currently developing into Littlefinger's heir. Which means her play will be to seduce Ramsay into complacency and then murder him ignobly and then only because doing so advances her interest. Sansa isn't on a path to strike down Bolton in the name of Justice, she'll do it in the name of Scheming. We'll all be psyched when it happens because Fuck Ramsay and Long Live The Stark in Winterfell, but we'll be wrong to feel that way. If Sansa only manages to fly the Stark banner using LF's methods, it'll be the End of the Starks as we know them, as we want them to be.

 

[Atraveller]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=164396354&postcount=6955

It's never been harder to not go in the no-book thread and shout at people "IT WASN'T GRRM, THE SHOWRUNNERS ARE RUINING HER CHARACTER ARC!"

I can already imagine people coming up to GRRM at cons and ask him to explain the shitty storylines the show did and he had nothing to do with.

Poor GRRM.

 

[Ikael]

I don't think that it is fair to compare Sansa's rape with Cersei, at all, and I believe that, unlike Cersei's, it wasn't trown just for mere "shock value".

First of all, it does make sense. Like, a lot of horrible sense. You're marrying Ramsay, so of course sexual experiences with him will be a nightmare, it couldn't be otherwise. Most importantly, it doesn't destroy Sansa's character arc, for her agency was stablished beforehand: She choosed to infiltrate the Boltons willingly, knowing that they were dangerous people. The conversation that she had with Baelish 2 episodes ago show how she was already on the course of becoming a different person (albeit not there yet) and she was determined to accept the worst in the name of vengeance, even if she couldn't imagine what "the worst" would entail. And yes, we know that Theon will "snap" at some point due to these events, but we don't fully know Sansa's degree of agency in the endgame of the northern plot yet, nor what this scene will entail in the future.

And as for the "shock value" accusations, refreshingly anough, the show runners didn't went into the explicit route (please somebody give Alfie Allen a goddamn Emmy already), nor sexualized it at all, thanks God. It showed rape for what it is: a horrible thing. I cannot help but feeling that people are loosing perspective by the fact that this is happening to a beloved character. A girl was raped by dogs and shitted over in the books, yet noone bat an eye just because it happened to Jeyne Poole instead. Count me on the "let's wait and see how it goes" camp (for now).

 

[LAUGHTREY]

ian mcelhinney said they killed Barristan because TV needs "high points" aka action or twists, aka they think people watching have short attention spans.


That's all this is, hack writers who should've just waited until all the books were out.

 

[munchie64]

ian mcelhinney said they killed Barristan because TV needs "high points" aka action or twists, aka they think people watching have short attention spans.


That's all this is, hack writers who should've just waited until all the books were out.

George should've waited till all the books were out you mean.

 

[Ratrat]

A girl was raped by dogs and shitted over in the books, yet noone bat an eye just because it happened to Jeyne Poole instead.

What kind of logic is this? Is Sansa a nobody plot device like Jeyne? Wait, never mind. She is now.

Edit: not sure what you mean by batting eyes. It's pretty much agreed to be the darkest stuff Grrm has ever written.

 

[Ikael]

What kind of logic is this? Is Sansa a nobody plot device like Jeyne? Wait, never mind. She is now.

Edit: not sure what you mean by batting eyes. It's pretty much agreed to be the darkest stuff Grrm has ever written.

The logic is that this particular scene have as much as "cheap shock value" as the books, and one could argue that it has been tamer. Whetever that's uncacceptable or not, it's up to personal interpretation.

As for character agency, I don't think that book Sansa has too much of this either. She's still a pawn in the Eyrie, following Baelish's orders and "going with the flow", whereas in the show Baelish did gave her the option to opt out of his plans, yet she rejected it.

 

[Exterminieren]

ian mcelhinney said they killed Barristan because TV needs "high points" aka action or twists, aka they think people watching have short attention spans.

They're absolutely right, in fairness. People are already complaining that this season's dull as it is, and the nature of the books that they're adapting means that they need altering to suit a season of television.

This is called knowing your audience and writing to their needs, not being a hack.

That's all this is, hack writers who should've just waited until all the books were out.

I've clearly missed the part where they've put a gun to GRRM's head and forced him to give them the rights when he was barely half done with the series.

 

[MikeyB]

Meh, killing Barristan was a hack move and I still think the season is slow. Lack of movement, no backdrop of war, and godawful Dorne.

 

[hoos30]

Poor GRRM.

Don't feel sorry for a man who cashes a giant check every week.

 

[Ratrat]

The logic is that this particular scene have as much as "cheap shock value" as the books, and one could argue that it has been tamer. Whetever that's uncacceptable or not, it's up to personal interpretation.

As for character agency, I don't think that book Sansa has too much of this either. She's still a pawn in the Eyrie, following Baelish's orders and "going with the flow", whereas in the show Baelish did gave her the option to opt out of his plans, yet she rejected it.

In the Eyrie she is actually being trained. One does not learn how to destroy a House over night. We also now know Sansa was just dumped there so Littlefinger could go cry to Cersei and not to actually do anything useful. She's a stupid person who wasn't taught shit getting manipulated once again.

BTW, the books chapter ends with Ramsay's order, not showing Ramsay plowing Jeyne as she screams and cries in terror. Also notice how terrible things like Theons castration and the dog/Jeyne stuff is only implied. Most people don't even remember/know that stuff.

Edit: I actually don't consider the scene as cheap shock value in itself either. That's not even what I was replying to.

 

[hoos30]

Meh, killing Barristan was a hack move and I still think the season is slow. Lack of movement, no backdrop of war, and godawful Dorne.

Barristan's exploits were 90% offscreen...I think some people are going over board on how great a character he was.

 

[Electric_ Cthulhu]

I've clearly missed the part where they've put a gun to GRRM's head and forced him to give them the rights when he was barely half done with the series.

Exactly. Martin is just a lazy-ass writer. He was too busy showing up at conventions and giving interviews, to finish the book in time.

The showrunners are doing fine, considering the expectations they are facing and the challenges, that such an enormous production creates. Everything Dorne excluded, of course.

 

[hoos30]

In the Eyrie she is actually being trained. One does not learn how to destroy a House over night. We also now know Sansa was just dumped there so Littlefinger could go cry to Cersei and not to actually do anything useful. She's a stupid person who wasn't taught shit getting manipulated once again.

BTW, the books chapter ends with Ramsay's order, not showing Ramsay plowing Jeyne as she screams and cries in terror. Also notice how terrible things like Theons castration and the dog/Jeyne stuff is only implied. Most people don't even remember/know that stuff.

No one wants to watch that on TV. Hell, no one wanted to read it either. Sansa in the Eyrie was as dead of an end as you could find.

 

[MikeyB]

Barristan's exploits were 90% offscreen...I think some people are going over board on how great a character he was.

The actor had presence and I don't know why they had to do this to demonstrate Daenerys' incompetence and giving her more opportunity to flounder as a ruler. The point that she sucks has been made abundantly clear.

 

[eot]

Exactly. Martin is just a lazy-ass writer. He was too busy showing up at conventions and giving interviews, to finish the book in time.

The showrunners are doing fine, considering the expectations they are facing and the challenges, that such an enormous production creates. Everything Dorne excluded, of course.

He's not lazy because he didn't write the books at a speed that satisfies you

 

[Valravn]

Captain Kirk has met his match.

 

[Mr Git]

Watched it with the gf last night, that ending and those fight scenes. It's hard to be enthused about really. I'm hoping the last few episodes are amazing. Have they a different choreographer for this series? I'm sure the fight scenes were never this bad before.

 

[munchie64]

The podcast Game of Microphones liked this episode a lot more than most, and made me feel a bit more positive. Dorne is of course a sticking point. Their discussions of the ending are a little frustrating though, as some of the hosts use some stupid arguments, but overall it is interesting.

I thought A Cast of Kings was a little bleh this week, but I understand why.

 

[Nodnol]

Regarding Sansa's arc:

Are we not getting ahead of ourselves? Until we know how it pays off, or what the reaction from her character and those around are, we can't really comment on it all.

It could quite easily go in two directions; either she continues to get trodden on, or it's the last of her innocence disappearing, not to mention the one last dream she probably had of her perfect wedding. It could quite easily symbolize the straw that broke the camels back, as it were, in terms of saying goodbye to S1 Sansa entirely.

I'm still expecting a frantic end to the season, with blood spilled and real development of where everyone is. Am I being naive in that? Because it feels like everything is slowly building, and eventually the volcano is going to blow its top.

 

[Ratrat]

No one wants to watch that on TV. Hell, no one wanted to read it either. Sansa in the Eyrie was as dead of an end as you could find.

Of course not. Eveyone wanted her to play Jeyne and get raped and abused in an idiotic, patched-up storyline. You don't need to tell me that. Such positive reactions so far as well.

 

[Faddy]

The scenes in Winterfell were the best in the episode. Yes it was an ugly ending but that has happened on the show before. Sansa knew what she was getting into, you can her the dread in her voice when she told Littlefinger that when he returns she would be wed.

Not that she necessarily had to be raped so brutally but the show had set it up with Ramsay who has been unredeeming in every way. It is a big character moment for Sansa and the show would have be worse if she had escaped two arranged marriages without losing her innocence.

Tyrion and Jorah was alright but the happening up slavers felt really forced and then the conversation was so logically flippant. The slavers go through 3 or 4 different scenarios before Tyrion convinces them not to kill him and make them change direction. It was an unnecessary complication. The slavers should simply have been sailing to Mereen to sell men for the fighting pits. It stops the convoluted conversation and shows how Dany's plan is going to fall to pieces.

The house of black and white is disappointing in that it is far too dark. It is hard to tell what is going on and the scenes seem labourious and repeating the same things over and over. I expected this plot to have lot more oomph.

Kings Landing is a disaster. Hey nice establishing shot with Olenna, now let's film everything in a broom closet. Have they changed locations or got rid of sets because the capital seems very claustrophobic. The large throne room has been absent, the small council chamber is even smaller. Maybe it is intentional to show the diminishing power of the crown but it comes off as cheap.

Dorne should be wiped off the map. A decent idea in theory but the actual outcome has been a mess so far. Pedro Pascal played Oberyn as an eccentric over the top character which worked because he was surrounded by a lot of serious characters. This is B movie stuff. The costuming is ridiculous. Why are Jaime and Bronn wearing old curtains yet Hotah still recognises Jaime in an instant? Actually perhaps he has spies or something, somebody in Dorne needs to be competent. Who whole fight scene made no sense and should have been stopped a lot sooner than it was. This isn't even about changes from the book this is just bad tv. Is Dorne too green? Are they shooting the outside scenes in Ireland with a brightness filter? It looks like Spanish themed Ren-Faire.

The production overall seems far sloppier than previous seasons that even if there was a bad scene here and there it could be put aside as the rest of the episode would usually make up for it. This season is full of sloppiness.

 

[munchie64]

I know he's said some... odd things, but Alex Graves is missed from a directing perspective imo. Michelle MacLaren too of course.

 

[The Chef]

I just found out about the rape scene with Sansa and its pretty pathetic stuff.

The show is clearly just going for shock factor at this point and is introducing characters to situations just so they can be the talking point of the week. When is Sansa even in the same location as Ramsay.

Truly pathetic. Makes me happy I bailed on the show

 

[Real Hero]

post that in this thread first next time

 

[The Elite]

Game of Thrones In Name Only

Gotino, why you hate me?

This is been a weird season because, for the most part, I can't really spoil a lot of what is happening for my girlfriend since I don't know where things are going myself. I really want to tell her "this isn't how it happened!" but I just keep my mouth shut and let her enjoy it.

 

[munchie64]

I just found out about the rape scene with Sansa and its pretty pathetic stuff.

The show is clearly just going for shock factor at this point and is introducing characters to situations just so they can be the talking point of the week. When is Sansa even in the same location as Ramsay.

Truly pathetic. Makes me happy I bailed on the show

Congrats I guess?

 

[Basileus777]

I just found out about the rape scene with Sansa and its pretty pathetic stuff.

The show is clearly just going for shock factor at this point and is introducing characters to situations just so they can be the talking point of the week. When is Sansa even in the same location as Ramsay.

Truly pathetic. Makes me happy I bailed on the show

At least pretend you have watched it so we can pretend to take your critique seriously.

 

[AlimNassor]

The whole Sansa rape left a bad impression on me. It's like they just throw up a paper full of things that say "X dies" or "y israped", c'mon that's poor writing and offensive. I'm very disappointed they did this.

 

[The Chef]

Congrats In guess?

Congrats In?
Is that something Reek mumbles?

At least pretend you have watched it so we can pretend to take your critique seriously.

Pretend to have watched it? I just said I found out about it. In what way do you discern that sentence to mean I watched the episode?

 

[munchie64]

The whole Sansa rape left a bad impression on me. It's like they just throw up a paper full of things that say "X dies" or "y israped", c'mon that's poor writing and offensive. I'm very disappointed they did this.

It's cause of the weird half adaptation thing they got going on. I still stand by the opinion that things would be better one way or the other.

Congrats In?
Is that something Reek mumbles?

Whoops, typo fucked up my snark.

 

[Basileus777]

Pretend to have watched it? I just said I found out about it. In what way do you discern that sentence to mean I watched the episode?

Try rereading my post. It doesn't express a particularly complicated idea.

 

[The Chef]

Try rereading my post. It doesn't express a particularly complicated idea.

I guess if you let your grasp on the english language slip away its not a complicated idea. Kind of like when my son tells me that pudding is probably from Alaska.

I try not to overthink it.

 

[Basileus777]

I guess if you let your grasp on the english language slip away its not a complicated idea. Kind of like when my son tells me that pudding is probably from Alaska.

I try not to overthink it.

Let me translate for you then. You haven't watched the show, your critique of it here is almost entirely without merit. Complaining about it in the non-books thread is even worse.

 

[H.Cornerstone]

They could probably adapt that speech to fit another character.

The problem with that speech is that the viewer has no idea who any of those people are. So we have to have another several scenes of dialogue to establish who Wyman Manderly is and why we should care. Why have we never heard of this fellow before now? Oberyn had the excuse of living far away.

Sansa could give a similar speech whenever her play comes to fruition.

There's a thing that everyone has to get used to. Television scenes are always better with characters you know and care about.

I know, and I don't know who else could say it since Sansa has never really identified as a Northmen. Just another reason not focusing on the north sucks

 

[The Chef]

Let me translate for you then. You haven't watched the show, your critique of it here is almost entirely worthless. Complaining about it in the non-books thread is even worse.

Ah your summation isn't correct. Sorry to disappoint

Its the first time I have actually ventured into the threads. I read the books and watched the show up until last season because it was really starting to make me uncomfortable. My wife bailed far before I did. That said it is my favorite book series and because apparently WoW isn't going to come out while I am above ground I was starting to gravitate back to the show because I just want to be back in this world in some fashion. Clicked on the show thread and was shocked by what is going on.

My sentiment that I am happy I didn't commit to the show again only to have to go through a scene like that is born.

Does that narrative help you?

 

[Forkball]

Christopher Nolan directed the last episode?

 

[hoos30]

The podcast Game of Microphones liked this episode a lot more than most, and made me feel a bit more positive. Dorne is of course a sticking point. Their discussions of the ending are a little frustrating though, as some of the hosts use some stupid arguments, but overall it is interesting.

I thought A Cast of Kings was a little bleh this week, but I understand why.

Joann can be a downer when she doesn't love an episode.

 

[munchie64]

Joann can be a downer when she doesn't love an episode.

Yeah, though like I said this particular time I can understand it, this is a big well known issue. Unlike something like the Wall episode last season which was a real drag.

 

[Jigorath]

Oh yeah Jaime, just loudly announce your presence right in front of the Prince in the middle of the day. He won't care or tell anyone that you're stealing his girlfriend.

Jesus did they fuck this subplot up.

 

[GavinGT]

For those that have read the books, is this season so far building up to some cool stuff? Or are they just treading water until next season?

 

[hoos30]

Yeah, though like I said this particular time I can understand it, this is a big well known issue. Unlike something like the Wall episode last season which was a real drag.

That is the exact episode I was thinking of. I almost gave up the cast because of it.

 

[PhoenixDark]

For those that have read the books, is this season so far building up to some cool stuff? Or are they just treading water until next season?

Episode 9 will be fun.

 

[munchie64]

For those that have read the books, is this season so far building up to some cool stuff? Or are they just treading water until next season?

Well that's the thing. The book ended in nothing but cliffhangers to the equivalent plots. We don't know if the show will go further than that.
We also don't know where the show original plot lines are going.

Edit: Episode 9 may indeed be fun.

 

[hoos30]

For those that have read the books, is this season so far building up to some cool stuff? Or are they just treading water until next season?

Yeah, we don't know. I think that is a source of some of the anxiety in this thread. The books seemed like they were leading to cool events, but cut off before they could happen. Greatest case of blue balls in literary history. The show could reach forward and pull in some of the potential cool stuff for "episode 9", but then again they also thought the Sand Snakes were a good idea so....

 

[Ratrat]

For those that have read the books, is this season so far building up to some cool stuff? Or are they just treading water until next season?

Not sure about 'cool' but there are game-changing events for a few of the characters, yes. One in particular will be amazing visually. I expect some really strong acting for another and a huge reaction from the last.

 

[Aiii]

So, ep 9, given the name we'll get the Fighting Pit and not certain events on the wall?

Do you guys think the Night's Watch stuff happens this season as well, or early next season?

 

[Oldest Snake]

So, ep 9, given the name we'll get the Fighting Pit and not certain events on the wall?

Do you guys think the Night's Watch stuff happens this season as well, or early next season?

Definitely this season. I'd be shocked if we don't get the outcome in this season as well, it would be too hard to keep Kit a secret when (if) he turns for filming next year.

I could Dany taking center stage in episode 9, with a minor subplot being the aftermath of Hardhome on the wall. We'll get a fake-out ending with Drogon fading to black, then just the stabbing as the final scene.

 

[Moff]

So, ep 9, given the name we'll get the Fighting Pit and not certain events on the wall?

Do you guys think the Night's Watch stuff happens this season as well, or early next season?

I doubt episode 9 will only be the pit. jon's stabbing will probably be episode 10, maybe even the last shot of the season.

 

[munchie64]

I doubt episode 9 will only be the pit. jon's stabbing will probably be episode 10, maybe even the last shot of the season.

Really? Imo there's no way they'll leave the question of Jon's death as a cliff-hanger for a season. The show's never done anything like that.