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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 5 - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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That would be pretty cool, with Melisandre by his side?
Moff
Member
well neither did the books up until that point.
I'd love to see what happens next, but that's what I expect that the moment.
The last few books weren't very good and the show is reflecting that. They have cut out a lot of useless stuff and there is a very obvious cliffhanger this season will probably end on unless it gets into unreleased stuff.
I'm pretty sure that's exactly what happens. Like you say it doesn't really fit the show though.
I don't think D&D are going to blueball us like GRR did in the books.
bengraven
Member
Off topic (lol) but I'm really looking forward to next episode after rewatching the preview a couple times.
Olenna vs. HP, Theon and Sansa planning her escape while Roose and Stannis go to WAAAAH, Marg looks like she's got something planned since she's doing her Natalie Dormer smirk while in prison, Jorah and Tyrion on the slave ship should be good fun, no Arya maybe but I'm hoping that we'll get a shot of her walking down the street and someone peddling cocks on the canals.
Moff
Member
well the episode is called the gift, so I guess arya will kill trant in that episode?
Exactly. I can't believe all these people criticizing this as "rape". It certainly was hard to watch, but it was much better than what happened to fArya.
I think the mistake D&D made was not having a scene with Sansa and Littlefinger that discussed the "plan" more. Something that told us that Sansa was willing to do whatever it took.
It looks like
maybe Sansa went to go light the candle in the ruined tower and Theon followed her there.
Moff
Member
of course it was rape. and everyone knows what happened to farya was worse, that's a fact. but
1) is it always something else to actually see it on screen
2) have it happen to an invested book character who has been through more than enough is something else than a random girl the audience has 0 attachement to.
I assumed that would be referring to
the land just south of the wall, tying in to the Jon/Wildling plot.
cartoon_soldier
Member
Does any place do GIFs of the previews still? I can never make things out properly in the 30 second previews.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Yea, that would be a culmination of audiences losing interest throughout the season. I'd rather they show him get revived. It didn't take long for book readers to realize Jon would be back, but the show hasn't really established any of that stuff.
Well, that's only because it was right after the book release that GRRM did an interview where he said "Or is he?" to the question of Jon's death.
Though to be fair, normally when people die in ASOIAF, you know they're dead. Jon's death was the only one that left doubt in the air so it wasn't a hard assumption to make either way. It'll be harder to do that in the show though.
Basileus777
Member
It had nothing to do with that. No one thought Jon was dead well before that interview. Jon not being dead for real was already a thing before the book was even officially released.
Moff
Member
well, I guess GRRM had an intention when he made a cliffhanger of this, I guess he wanted us to believe that jon is actually dead. of course that did not work at all, literally while reading the lines I thought "no GRRM, I don't believe you".
no I agree with you that on the show it would very likely look far more believable, and given D&D's love for shock and twists (who can blame them, it's literally what their show is best known for) I absolutely believe they will succeed in what GRRM tried to do, and I agree again that this might very likely put many show watchers off the show.
She married him....it was their wedding night.....She didn't even say "wait" or "hang on", much less "no" or "stop".
I hate that they've made this Sansa's storyline, but calling it rape is not accurate.
Solideliquid
Member
There are many instances in the book that describe current and past "wedding nights" and most of those, even between consenting adults could be seen as a rape of the bride. Usually higher level weddings are arranged between houses anyway so "consent" is a loose term. With that, I don't want to get involved in the debate about was it rape or not, but I'm sure she anticipated having sex on her wedding night, as that's the acceptable outcome.
And what would have happened had she said no? It was rape dude. She just chose a lesser of evils by not showing obvious resistance.
Pyramid head
Banned
Fucking hell. When you know your husband has a penchant for skinning people alive and hunting ex girlfriends and feeding them to dogs, neglecting to anger him by uttering the phrases you mention is not the same thing as concenting. Just accept that it was rape and move on.
Veritigo_X
Member
Did you miss the not so veiled threats he was making?
Moff
Member
I know it's weird concept, but even if she wanted to marry him for her long term goals and she obviously knew what happens at wedding nights, she can still be raped. and we don't even need to talk about this as some kind of concept. we were there, we have seen it, we have seen her expression and we have seen theon's expression, it was terrible and it was rape, period.
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
I don't know how smart it would be for them to actually end this season with the impression that Jon is dead. A lot of people are starting to have a lot of real complaints about the show and without some payoff this year I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the viewer numbers start to slip.
Cersei saying 'no' repeatedly didn't stop this awful debate last year. Some people just have the creepiest definition of consent.
bengraven
Member
I think maybe she cornered him somewhere. Or vice versa. I think the candle is still going to be either Brienne or a trap from the old dude.
She'll find Theon there and he'll put up his hand, on which is written "NOT BRIENNE'S CANDLE" right before the old guy from the inn blows the tower up and kills Theon.
(seriously, the old dude looks a lot like the Russian guy from LOST but it's not)
Your poor morality is showing, dude.
hipsterpants
Member
Killing Jon as the final scene would be an excellent way to lose the viewers that are already dissatisfied with this season. He's the one remaining character that isn't 1) getting horrifically abused and 2) is an unquestionably good person. I don't think people would be able to take it.
Plus "Jon lives" would be the hot new way to spoil show only watchers before S6, even after they think they had finally escaped.
Plus "Jon lives" would be the hot new way to spoil show only watchers before S6, even after they think they had finally escaped.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
Hate to pile on, but yeah, she wasn't really in any position to say those things.
This is the worst argument people are making. If you have a moral objection why does it disappear when much worse happens to a different character? Is it a case of Sansa doesn't deserve what happened but Jeyne does?
I think the comparison is unfair because books and film are very different in terms of audience connection. In the books, the characters are just characters in our head. They don't exist, there is no connection to anyone real. In the show, this is happening to a character portrayed by an actual person. A person who has been on the show since she was a girl, and grew up with the show over half a decade. She's still really young, of course people are going to be far more disgusted with the scene. If Jeyne was in the same position on the show, people would be just as disgusted.
Moff
Member
I'm sorry but you really don't seem to understand what people are complaining about.
people are not complaining about that more rape was shown on tv, it wasn't even shown in last episode, we only saw theons face. we see rape on game of thrones all the time, I don't even remember when the last time was, probably some random girl no one ever saw before and after. it's not about who deserves it and who doesn't, it's about the connection the people have with sansa. the reactions speak for themselves, considering that we haven't even actually seen the act, which is something we have seen before, but only seeing it off screen through theons reaction was too much and too far, because of the connection we have to sansa. so the empathy is much bigger. I don't really understand why I need to explain that.
This is vulgar and disgusting. And I really hope that you can figure out why.
Yes but Jeyne doesn't exist on the show. If they had rolled out an extra as Fake Arya this season and did the scene as depicted in the book then that would have caused even more of an uproar.
It would be doing horrendous things to a disposible character, someone you can just forget about. The show already had that problem with Craster's Wives, at least they got the satisfaction of killing a few Night's Watch and burning it to the ground.
Sophie Turner will be on talk shows, doing promos for GoT, doing work on other films. People will get to see she is alright and be reminded that is just TV.
I don't know if anyone saw, but EW updated their interview with a further comment from Cogman and the author of the article:
Look. The rape wasn't depicted happening at all in the book. The show went further visually. That is a fact.
bengraven
Member
I think he's trying to explain what I was trying to explain the other night but he's even worse than I am...
Moff
Member
do you not realize you have just answered your questions yourself?
the reaction to the rape of craster's wives was nowhere near what we see now when it happened to sansa, actually I don't remember any reactions at all.
because it did not happen to characters we were already heavily invested in.
Is this the new argument of the scene in the books vs. the show? What's the difference in the book if it happens in "real time" vs. a character recounting it later in extremely graphic detail? The end result for the reader is the same, they are reading the words explaining the act. This seems like a real flimsy angle to take when criticizing the scene from the show, especially when there are other far more valid criticisms to make that can be supported by more sound reasoning.
And of course the show "went further visually," since, you know, TV actually has a visual component unlike a book! It's also a fact that the show didn't depict the rape on screen.
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
I'm so confused with the outrage. You guys realize that GoT is fiction, none of this stuff actually happened? The world they're portraying isn't perfect in the slightest sense, you should of realized that by now.
Sansa is forced on the bed and we can tell by the way she is in pain and moving that she is being penetrated. Go figure.
Using dialogue is definitely more restrained.
For the record, I don't have a problem with the scene itself. It's a symptom of an idiotic plot, the outrage should be targeted there.
Calamari41
41 > 38
Whoa, just reading up on some of the stuff going on this season after I heard that Sansa was raped by Ramsay. They're really off the rails. It's actually funny at this point, and I couldn't be happier with my decision to stop watching after last season.
Would you like a cookie?
hipsterpants
Member
beyond the argument over depictions/which character it happens to etc. it's a really cheap and crass way to:
a) have Theon "reawaken" (even the Unsullied are rolling their eyes at this)
b) have Sansa reach her lowest point ("But she's a woman," the writers thought, "how else do women reach their lowest point?")
Now I'm imagining Alfie the God masterfully pulling off the slow transition from Reek to Theon and it's making me sad. Instead we got this.
a) have Theon "reawaken" (even the Unsullied are rolling their eyes at this)
b) have Sansa reach her lowest point ("But she's a woman," the writers thought, "how else do women reach their lowest point?")
Now I'm imagining Alfie the God masterfully pulling off the slow transition from Reek to Theon and it's making me sad. Instead we got this.
It's very difficult to say what comprises the entire Sansa rape scene.
On the one hand, any woman being forced to have sex without wanting it constitutes rape. That is beyond dispute, and it could happen to a prostitute or a noble wife.
On the other hand, Ramsay could have been gentle and eased Sansa into the process as a young lover her own age would. He could have been gentle with her. Having sex for the first time hurts all girls, so it would have always been unpleasant.
Ramsay rips off her clothes, does the deed aggressively and violently, and makes Theon watch. These three things destroy any sense of acceptance she could have had with the whole situation.
However, Ramsay always does things like this when he has sex. He likes being hit, bitten, and cut during the act. He also likes to beat up his partners. So it's tough to say whether he himself considers it rape or his right as a husband. He's a sick man.
What if Edmure's bride didn't want to lose her virginity right away? I'm sure he would have been patient with her.
I dunno...it's a thorny issue, to be sure, but what's clear is that Sansa now has a clear motivation to despise Ramsay.
On the one hand, any woman being forced to have sex without wanting it constitutes rape. That is beyond dispute, and it could happen to a prostitute or a noble wife.
On the other hand, Ramsay could have been gentle and eased Sansa into the process as a young lover her own age would. He could have been gentle with her. Having sex for the first time hurts all girls, so it would have always been unpleasant.
Ramsay rips off her clothes, does the deed aggressively and violently, and makes Theon watch. These three things destroy any sense of acceptance she could have had with the whole situation.
However, Ramsay always does things like this when he has sex. He likes being hit, bitten, and cut during the act. He also likes to beat up his partners. So it's tough to say whether he himself considers it rape or his right as a husband. He's a sick man.
What if Edmure's bride didn't want to lose her virginity right away? I'm sure he would have been patient with her.
I dunno...it's a thorny issue, to be sure, but what's clear is that Sansa now has a clear motivation to despise Ramsay.
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