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[Rodney McKay]

I hope Bronn is going to be OK.

I agree that he probably got poisoned by that little cut he got in the fight, but maybe they'll have an antidote that they'll give him in exchange for something?

The show has lost so many great characters over the last few seasons and hasn't done a great job of replacing them with new ones (high sparrow is great, but just because of the actor so far, not so much his actual character yet). I feel like the books did a better job of introducing new characters, but the show is missing a few at the moment like Euron or Victarion.

 

[mantidor]

Will you bravo GRRM when Sansa takes a marriage for ulterior motives in the book and has to grit her teeth through the consummation?

Does every political marriage ends in rape in the books?

 

[Cybit]

Does every political marriage ends in rape in the books?

..sadly, off the top of my head, with the lone exception of Tyrion...I think it does?

 

[Violater]

Are you guys still calling it rape?

 

[bengraven]

Does every political marriage ends in rape in the books?

I'd say it's a grey area because if you say "they should only have sex when they're not scared" I think they would need to rename it Virginos.

 

[Veritigo_X]

I've never heard this before. I thought the maesters have been around since the First Men. Wouldn't from at least that point onward be accurate?

Who says the maesters are telling the truth?

 

[Tiktaalik]

Bronn getting killed by that stupid cut would be terrible.

The rape scene isn't bad for the what it shows but thematically, it goes against Sansa's entire arc. It seems stupid right now but we'll see how the rest of the season plays out.

If Sansa remains a whiny baby and never uses her new position to get revenge against Ramsay and the Boltons then it would go against her arc.

Sansa pulling a knife on Ramsey on the wedding night or some such thing would be an unrealistic fairytale.

 

[hendersonhank]

Does every political marriage ends in rape in the books?

Well all these political marriages are by definition made for the purpose of political gain and not for love or attraction, so presumably all those consummations are not at all desired in and of themselves, but only to make the marriage. Isn't that how we're defining rape here? Sansa doesn't want to lose her virginity to Ramsay, but she wants the marriage, and that means it MUST be consummated, which is why she goes to their bedchamber and takes off her clothes and doesn't in ANY way protest.

 

[Speevy]

Are you guys still calling it rape?

It's rape when a woman is forced to have sex against her consent.

Sansa is a young woman who chooses to marry Ramsay, but is clearly uncomfortable with the idea of moving so fast with intercourse. He makes her 100 times more uncomfortable by threatening her, letting another person watch, and ripping off her clothes to the point where she sees the act as an attack on her person.

She was raped by her husband.

 

[Speevy]

This might be stepping over into unpopular territory, but does anyone else think Jorah is a better character without Dany? I've enjoyed watching him much more since he left her.

 

[hendersonhank]

It's rape when a woman is forced to have sex against her consent.

When did she not consent? When she went to the bedchamber for the purpose of consummating the marriage and began removing her clothes?

 

[Speevy]

When did she not consent? When she went to the bedchamber for the purpose of consummating the marriage and began removing her clothes?

She made it clear that she didn't want to move so fast. Women have the right to want sex how they want it and when they want it.


She did not consent to be bent over while someone watched and have her dress ripped.

 

[-griffy-]

This might be stepping over into unpopular territory, but does anyone else think Jorah is a better character without Dany? I've enjoyed watching him much more since he left her.

It's the interplay between him and Tyrion that has made him better, I think. Jorah's so dour, and the Dany storyline is generally so devoid of any humor, that Tyrion forces Jorah to lighten up, or at least invites the audience to view him in a more humorous light ("Long, sullen silences and an occasional punch in the face: The Mormont Way"). Him being forced to react to and deal with Tyrion's bullshit is something new and interesting to the character compared to just having a mad crush on Kelly C.

 

[Violater]

I posit that Margery raped Tomen.
I mean he's clearly under aged and not able to consent.

She made it clear that she didn't want to move so fast. Women have the right to want sex how they want it and when they want it.
She did not consent to be bent over while someone watched and have her dress ripped.

I must have missed when she said "no" even once.

 

[Speevy]

I posit that Margery raped Tomen.

Well, perhaps so, but he is the king and clearly loved everything about it.

He can have Margaery killed if it bothers him so much. Sansa cannot hurt Ramsay yet.

 

[-griffy-]

I posit that Margery raped Tomen.
I mean he's clearly under aged and not able to consent.

This is stupid. There's no debate whether Sansa was raped or not. There's debate about the merits of the rape scene existing.

 

[hendersonhank]

She did not consent to be bent over while someone watched and have her dress ripped.

How do you know? I didn't hear her protest. I'm sure she didn't WANT it, but she clearly CONSENTED to it.

 

[Violater]

This is stupid. There's no debate whether Sansa was raped or not. There's debate about the merits of the rape scene existing.

How do you know? I didn't hear her protest. I'm sure she didn't WANT it, but she clearly CONSENTED to it.

Clearly its not stupid, see the debate?

 

[PhoenixDark]

I posit that Margery raped Tomen.
I mean he's clearly under aged and not able to consent.



I must have missed when she said "no" even once.

By modern standards sure. Tommen is a "man" in the show, just as there really wasn't a concept of teenage years in the medieval era. But forcefully assaulting a woman is rape. You could argue a husband could do as he pleased with his wife during the medieval era which makes direct comparisons hard but ultimately we're talking about a forceful assault/rape.

 

[Speevy]

You guys would be flayed worse than a Bolton prisoner in any other OT thread.


Women have the right to their bodies. When you enter into a consensual relationship, you generally discuss things like sex and when it should happen. Sometimes it just happens without you discussing it, but rarely should it happen with one party crying and the other railing from behind while ripping clothes off.


You know how you know it's rape?

Pretend you watched this scene two seasons ago with a time-traveling internet video from the future. Now, you don't know that Ramsay and Sansa are married. All you see are Sansa taking her clothes off, Ramsay threatening Sansa, Sansa slowly disrobing, Ramsay making Theon watch, Ramsay ripping the clothes off, and the end shot. Would it be your conclusion that the two were involved in a totally consensual encounter?

As I said, she could have just not enjoyed some unpleasant, private sex with a disgusting man like many women do. The way they took it over the top made it rape, and while it may not have been necessary, it doesn't change what it was.

 

[-griffy-]

Clearly its not stupid, see the debate?

Yes it is stupid, there's no debate because someone saying it's not rape is wrong. The idea a woman needs to say no or outwardly protest for a rape to occur is an ignorant fallacy. She knew she would need to consummate the marriage walking into that room, but she did not consent to Theon, the man she believes murdered her brothers and betrayed her family, being forced to watch while Ramsay rips her dress off and forces her onto the bed.

 

[Cybit]

By modern standards sure. Tommen is a "man" in the show, just as there really wasn't a concept of teenage years in the medieval era. But forcefully assaulting a woman is rape. You could argue a husband could do as he pleased with his wife during the medieval era which makes direct comparisons hard but ultimately we're talking about a forceful assault/rape.

This entire debate is based around modern era definitions. In Westeros / GoT world, there is no such thing as marital rape - women don't have those types of rights.

The only argument about the "definition" is whether you're basing it on modern real-world definitions and conventions or in-universe definitions.

 

[Morts]

How do you know? I didn't hear her protest. I'm sure she didn't WANT it, but she clearly CONSENTED to it.

Holy shit dude, absence of a 'no' is not a 'yes'. It boggles my mind that there's a debate about whether marital rape occurred.

 

[Speevy]

This entire debate is based around modern era definitions. In Westeros / GoT world, there is no such thing as marital rape - women don't have those types of rights.

The only argument about the "definition" is whether you're basing it on modern real-world definitions and conventions or in-universe definitions.

Then why frame it like a scene from a horror movie?


Watch HBO's Rome. There's a scene between

Spoiler

Marc Antony and Octavia

in which a political marriage is consummated without enjoyment from either party.

 

[Cybit]

Then why frame it like a scene from a horror movie?


Watch HBO's Rome. There's a scene between

Spoiler

Marc Antony and Octavia

in which a political marriage is consummated without enjoyment from either party.

Because as GRRM put it; it's intended to show the horrors of it all. The entire show is about humanity as monsters. GRRM (and by extension, the show), always take the darkest approach to a situation.

Plus, I suspect the TV showrunners know where Sansa's arc is going through TWOW, and are setting that up in this season to fully unveil in season 6. I'm still hopeful that Sansa's going to use this to go on a tear (until GRRM does something that none of us see coming, again).

EDIT: As a Flash fan, the show definitely pushes some major nerves inside of me (I generally like my shows happier and more optimistic). But I just try to steel myself for "I am not prepared" levels of darkness, and try to put the anger towards the characters rather than the show runners. I don't like this new meta-aspect of fandom.

 

[AkuMifune]

This might be stepping over into unpopular territory, but does anyone else think Jorah is a better character without Dany? I've enjoyed watching him much more since he left her.

It was always sad to see him carrying her purse everywhere.

And in between seasons I watched all of the Jack Taylor TV Movies and I really like Iain Glen a ton now.

And I'll go out on a long long limb to claim that I bet dragonfire cures greyscale...

 

[Tiktaalik]

This came up in Grantland's weekly Game of Thrones debrief:



Anyone got a link to a bonkers technology theory or two?

http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2014/05/05-8000-years-of-stagnation/index.html

 

[Iksenpets]

Then why frame it like a scene from a horror movie?


Watch HBO's Rome. There's a scene between

Spoiler

Marc Antony and Octavia

in which a political marriage is consummated without enjoyment from either party.

This scene is really the model it should have gone with if they felt they needed this scene. Show Sansa as someone who's grown cynical enough about the game that she just does what she has to do. She clearly hates it, but whatever. Having Ramsay force it brings her right back to season 2 level. Whatever need they have for Ramsay to be scary could've been handled by having him project his aggression onto Theon rather than Sansa.

Clearly its not stupid, see the debate?

Two people spouting nonsense isn't debate.

Who says the maesters are telling the truth?

That was always my take on it. The Maesters are intentionally altering the historical record to make it seem like magic was in the much more distant past, instead of a relatively recent phenomenon.

 

[Faddy]

The Ramsay-Sansa scene is almost modest in comparison to the traditional bedding ceremony as described by Catelyn.

On Catelyn’s own wedding night, Jory Cassell had torn her gown in his haste to get her out of it, and drunken Desmond Grell kept apologizing for every bawdy joke, only to make another. When Lord Dustin had beheld her naked, he’d told Ned that her breasts were enough to make him wish he’d never been weaned.

Did Edmure rape Roslin Frey?

The men and boys surrounded Roslin and lifted her into the air whilst the maids and mothers in the hall pulled Edmure to his feet and began tugging at his clothing. He was laughing and shouting bawdy jokes back at them, though the music was too loud for Catelyn to hear. She heard the Greatjon, though. “Give this little bride to me,” he bellowed as he shoved through the other men and threw Roslin over one shoulder. “Look at this little thing! No meat on her at all!”
Catelyn felt sorry for the girl. Most brides tried to return the banter, or at least pretended to enjoy it, but Roslin was stiff with terror, clutching the Greatjon as if she feared he might drop her. She’s crying too, Catelyn realized as she watched Ser Marq Piper pull off one of the bride’s shoes. I hope Edmure is gentle with the poor child.

Let's just admit that the marital customs of Westeros are pretty fucked up and what Ramsay did wasn't out of the ordinary, in fact in many ways gentler than usual.

If she marries in the Vale will she be pleased at Lord Royce or Baelish or Mord stripping her naked before Harry takes her maidenhead in public

 

[Blatz]

And what would have happened had she said no? It was rape dude. She just chose a lesser of evils by not showing obvious resistance.

She chose = not rape

 

[AkuMifune]

She chose = not rape

She did start taking off her clothes on her own...but then he totally raped her.

Whatever I just want next weeks episode to feature baby cannibalism so we can move past this and into outrage that's more interesting.

 

[Blatz]

Your poor morality is showing, dude.

 

[Blatz]

Did you miss the not so veiled threats he was making?

She chose to marry him, she knows what happens on a wedding night. She chose not to resist.

And this is all for some greater good, supposedly. Revenge for her family, it seems. Hopefully she'll get it.

It's a terrible change from the books. I hate it. But everyone is framing a false dialog of rape.

I've said from season 1 leaving out Jeyne Poole was a mistake. Sansa having a friend could have worked.

 

[Darth Pinche]

She chose = not rape

What? She was assaulted.

 

[Byakuya769]

Sorry, apparently crying and having your clothes ripped off isn't enough unless you audibly say "no."

Some of you cannot be serious.

It was rape.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

It's rape when a woman is forced to have sex against her consent.

Sansa is a young woman who chooses to marry Ramsay, but is clearly uncomfortable with the idea of moving so fast with intercourse. He makes her 100 times more uncomfortable by threatening her, letting another person watch, and ripping off her clothes to the point where she sees the act as an attack on her person.

She was raped by her husband.

Yep. And if people are having a problem just because of the word, would you say that Ramsay deserves whatever awful things that are probably going to happen to him in part because of what he did? Did it make you like him more or less? How would you feel if Sansa were your sister? If this were the first time you saw him, would you say he was a bad person?

At some point it's quibbling semantics and legal definitions and missing the point. He was sexually violent to her against her will, in a way that traumatized her, with an unwilling witness she didn't want there. Does it matter what we call it?

This might be stepping over into unpopular territory, but does anyone else think Jorah is a better character without Dany? I've enjoyed watching him much more since he left her.

Yes, but not that much better.

 

[Blatz]

Again. She chose to let it happen for the long con. A means to an end.

You can call it rape if you like, but you're letting your emotions cloud the narrative.

She WAS a virgin and he wasn't gentle with her, hence the....pain.

I fully believe this was intended to be the last straw for Theon, though. We'll see. I think that's why D&D did it. I'm not a fan of their decision.

 

[Kain]

This might be stepping over into unpopular territory, but does anyone else think Jorah is a better character without Dany? I've enjoyed watching him much more since he left her.

Everyone is better without Dany.

 

[WrenchNinja]

She chose = not rape

https://youtu.be/MZ1lc6KASWg

 

[Blatz]

https://youtu.be/MZ1lc6KASWg

Analogy fail

 

[Patriots7]

Again. She chose to let it happen for the long con. A means to an end.

You can call it rape if you like, but you're letting your emotions cloud the narrative.

She WAS a virgin and he wasn't gentle with her, hence the....pain.

I fully believe this was intended to be the last straw for Theon, though. We'll see. I think that's why D&D did it. I'm not a fan of their decision.

Oh for fucks sake.

She did not choose to marry Ramsay, she was forced into a situation and went along with it. But for arguments sake, even if she did, nobody chooses to be raped.

Yes, in the historic timeframe it might have been accepted. But that does not discount that she was raped by her husband In the episode last night. She does not need to scream or say no in order for it to be rape. Just. Stop. Your argument is beyond insulting to many sufferers of marital rape.

Jesus.

 

[Dysun]

It's always shocking to see how many people see rape and then say it's not rape because reasons

 

[WrenchNinja]

Analogy fail

Nah.

 

[Veritigo_X]

She chose to marry him, she knows what happens on a wedding night. She chose not to resist.

And this is all for some greater good, supposedly. Revenge for her family, it seems. Hopefully she'll get it.

It's a terrible change from the books. I hate it. But everyone is framing a false dialog of rape.

I've said from season 1 leaving out Jeyne Poole was a mistake. Sansa having a friend could have worked.

She knew what would happen but she didn't know it would happen like THAT. She chose not to resist because she was literally just told a story about all the girls Ramsay killed for being "boring" (hence the Always Sunny implication video someone posted, get it now?). It was either get tortured or go along with it. What kind of choice is that? How can you call that consensual? Your "she choose = not rape" statement makes no sense.

 

[badcrumble]

Again. She chose to let it happen for the long con. A means to an end.

You can call it rape if you like, but you're letting your emotions cloud the narrative.

She WAS a virgin and he wasn't gentle with her, hence the....pain.

I fully believe this was intended to be the last straw for Theon, though. We'll see. I think that's why D&D did it. I'm not a fan of their decision.

Did she vocally affirm her consent to having sex? No? Then she was raped.

 

[Pyramid head]

She chose = not rape

By "chose" you mean 'manipulated' by the most devious character in the series into marrying the son of the man who killed half her family, a man who she knows tortures and murders in the most horrific ways on a whim? All that choice.

 

[Violater]

Two people spouting nonsense isn't debate.

Hey guys we disagree and all, but there is no need to be dismissive.

 

[Mxrz]

Hurry up, Sunday.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Hurry up, Sunday.

Pretty much this lol

 

[Iksenpets]

Again. She chose to let it happen for the long con. A means to an end.

You can call it rape if you like, but you're letting your emotions cloud the narrative.

She WAS a virgin and he wasn't gentle with her, hence the....pain.

I fully believe this was intended to be the last straw for Theon, though. We'll see. I think that's why D&D did it. I'm not a fan of their decision.

Yes, she chose to be in there. And had sex gone down on her terms, things would be different. I mean, it could still be construed as rape since she was pressured and coerced, but there'd at least be some room for argument. That went out the door when he tore off her clothes, shoved her on the bed, and had his way with her. Initial consent does not grant license to do whatever the fuck you want after that point. He had a willing bride, but he didn't like the pace she was setting, so he raped her.