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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 5 - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
- Start date
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Yes.
Just because rape is commonplace in Westeros doesn't mean it isn't rape. Forcing yourself on a woman while she's crying and screaming is clearly rape and I'm not sure why I have to explain that.
badcrumble
Member
I think it's a bummer that the rape scene and sandsnake scene are so bad, because the rest of the episode was honestly quite good, I thought. I suppose I'm not super pleased about how the show is handling Loras.
It is clearly rape. If not the most forcible and violent of rapes ever depicted, then still rape due to her lack of a right to stop it or control it in any way.
But that's not the issue. What happened to Sansa is what happens to most married women in Westeros (and most women throughout real world history), noble or not. The real issue is whether the scene has value to the story or not. My feeling is that it's the wrong choice because it seems to be what they are going to use as Theon's turning point, which treats Sansa cheaply. In essence, Sansa's flesh is sacrificed to save Theon's soul. That could be wrong of course. Maybe the show has properly planned Sansa's own revenge/re-assertion of agency plotline, but I can't assume that and frankly the show hasn't earned my faith in that regard.
Then there's the issue of viewer discomfort with seeing someone put in such a horrible situation after seeing them grow from a child to an adult over the last five years. Yes, you can say that worse things have happened to other characters without the same outcry. But that's how storytelling works. You care a lot more about Eddard Stark being beheaded than Random Lannister Guard #3. So I don't fault people for having a strong negative reaction to this.
But that's not the issue. What happened to Sansa is what happens to most married women in Westeros (and most women throughout real world history), noble or not. The real issue is whether the scene has value to the story or not. My feeling is that it's the wrong choice because it seems to be what they are going to use as Theon's turning point, which treats Sansa cheaply. In essence, Sansa's flesh is sacrificed to save Theon's soul. That could be wrong of course. Maybe the show has properly planned Sansa's own revenge/re-assertion of agency plotline, but I can't assume that and frankly the show hasn't earned my faith in that regard.
Then there's the issue of viewer discomfort with seeing someone put in such a horrible situation after seeing them grow from a child to an adult over the last five years. Yes, you can say that worse things have happened to other characters without the same outcry. But that's how storytelling works. You care a lot more about Eddard Stark being beheaded than Random Lannister Guard #3. So I don't fault people for having a strong negative reaction to this.
Ganzlinger
Member
Edmure didn't rape Roslin as far as I remember. She even seemed to like him.
bengraven
Member
This is a good post and basically a summary of how I feel.
This is exactly how I was expecting/hoping it to be handled.
If the rape doesn't have serious ramifications on Sansa's future decisions, then I will probably take a seriously negative stance on this show in general.
They can still make a positive out of it I think.
The (picture spoiler)
thing...I just don't even.
They can still make a positive out of it I think.
The (picture spoiler)
Ramsay setting fire to Stannis' camp
I remember she was crying because she knew of the Red wedding and was sad, but she liked Edmure a lot.
Also this thread reminds me of mid-2014.
Ganzlinger
Member
That's exactly how I remember.
Moff
Member
I think it makes perfect sense. she thought she could make it, but that rape will break her. the setup makes it obvious that she will now light the candle.
cartoon_soldier
Member
Agree, that if this is used to advance Theon and Sansa just basically goes back to her old self than it was a pretty bad. I am hoping that is not the case.
Can we keep "was it rape" over in the thread dedicated to was it rape? It's v boring. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1048323
Whether she "chose" to be used by Ramsay under her free will in perfect understanding that it's a means to an end doesn't matter. The outcome would've been the same whether she consented or not. If her goal was to have sex with Ramsay as a way of getting some control or power or influence over him, then she failed utterly in advancing that goal. So she's a victim or she's completely incompetent. Either way the scene doesn't represent any kind of character development. The only thing she's ever been on the show has been a victim or an incompetent knucklehead, save that one scene vs the Lords of the Vale and one good quip vs Myranda.
Dope, reading this now. Thanks.
Wealth is definitely accumulating. The Iron Bank has all kind of capital they could be investing out. The world has markets, there is a global trade system. Surely someone's realized that there's a big win to be had if the Arbor could produce more wine more reliably.
Plus there's all kind of advancement you can make during winter, it's ridiculous that maesters haven't yet figured out that bleeding people with epilepsy doesn't help at all. You can run that experiment indoors by the fireplace lol.
Whether she "chose" to be used by Ramsay under her free will in perfect understanding that it's a means to an end doesn't matter. The outcome would've been the same whether she consented or not. If her goal was to have sex with Ramsay as a way of getting some control or power or influence over him, then she failed utterly in advancing that goal. So she's a victim or she's completely incompetent. Either way the scene doesn't represent any kind of character development. The only thing she's ever been on the show has been a victim or an incompetent knucklehead, save that one scene vs the Lords of the Vale and one good quip vs Myranda.
Dope, reading this now. Thanks.
Wealth is definitely accumulating. The Iron Bank has all kind of capital they could be investing out. The world has markets, there is a global trade system. Surely someone's realized that there's a big win to be had if the Arbor could produce more wine more reliably.
Plus there's all kind of advancement you can make during winter, it's ridiculous that maesters haven't yet figured out that bleeding people with epilepsy doesn't help at all. You can run that experiment indoors by the fireplace lol.
Is that why she was crying? Well alright, then those are completely different situations. But my point stands, what happened with Sansa was rape.
cartoon_soldier
Member
IRONBORN ALERT..questionable source
IMDB says Balon Greyjoy is in Episode 10
Veritigo_X
Member
IMDB is known to get these things wrong. I'm not too hopeful.
Ganzlinger
Member
Isn't he already dead?
Eurrario in S06E01 here we come!
badcrumble
Member
Sounds like all five of the Five Kings will be dead by season's end.
And I wonder if they'll be much more explicit about
the Faceless Men killing him
Radically-altered Kingsmoot in Season 6?
Dude
falling off a bridge
No way this is true though.
Moff
Member
cartoon_soldier
Member
We have confirmation that Yara is in though from WoTW
Also, preview image:
http://i.imgur.com/e2CZWNa.jpg
Why so sad?
Also, preview image:
http://i.imgur.com/e2CZWNa.jpg
Why so sad?
Of course it is. It's a strange rape situation nonetheless as she was there voluntarily and she knew exactly what was going to happen. Either she is a moron or she has some kind of plan. If she had a plan it's a strange one, but of well, this is a series where Jaime Lannister goes from awesome to rapist to whipped puppy.
The thing is that this bedding was practically cartoonish, the most sadistic member of the cast marries the innocent virgin. Of course he will rape her.
Arranged marriages are not simple topic, so it's dissapointing if the books don't address it much, are we to assume Ned raped Cat as well? Because I doubt it, I also doubt they were that much into it, but I'm also sure it was a far cry from Ramsay/Sansa.
Moff
Member
is that from the preview of next week?
cartoon_soldier
Member
Yes Sir.
This would be awful on several levels, lets hope is not the case.
Did not expect that at all, if true. I thought for sure that would be handled off screen whenever they got to it.
If they do one ironborn scene in each of season 3, 4, and 5, their ironborn plot better pay off big time to justify that level of stringing it out. They Greyjoys would be second only to the White Walkers in terms of teasing "this'll be important later, we promise".
If they do one ironborn scene in each of season 3, 4, and 5, their ironborn plot better pay off big time to justify that level of stringing it out. They Greyjoys would be second only to the White Walkers in terms of teasing "this'll be important later, we promise".
Next episode is definitely going to make a big deal out of the snowfall, since it will be the start of Stannis being stuck in it.
Moff
Member
I think that's pretty much clear. sansa, theon and brienne will go to stannis camp and help reclaim winterfell. it would be highly unbelievable that sansa still wanted to stay with ramsay after he raped her.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
Brienne and Jon!
Which would be a new low for the writing.
She should leave or light the candle if her life is actually in danger, not because of a rape that she probably saw coming. If she does it because of that they would throw away all the build up of her arc and would indeed make me drop this show, because everything people are complaining about the rape would actually be true.
Can I edit IMDB so that Walder Frey, Wyman Manderly, Lady Stoneheart, Moonboy, Arianne Martell, Victarion Greyjoy, Euron Greyjoy, Jeyne Poole, Greatjon Umber, Rickon Stark, Hodor, Undead Karl Tanner, All of Dany's dragons, Bryden Tully, Hot Pie, Gendry, Ilyn Payne, The Ghost of Lyanna Stark, and The Hound appear in 5.10?
Moff
Member
I don't know what you are talking about. it was not her idea to reclaim winterfell, it was littlefingers idea. she initially didn't want to and he had to persuade her.
littlefinger putting her there is questionable, but all of sansas reactions have made perfect sense so far, and that includes lighting the candle and flee with theon after she was raped.
and I don't agree that this would make the complaints about the rape scene true, quite the contrary. if she would continie as if nothing happened it would be exactly the unnessecary shock scene people try to make it. but it actually is important to advance the plot, the rape makes her flee winterfell.
bengraven
Member
I wonder if events from this will end up bringing Tyrion to Winterfell.
I remember the original draft mentioned him eventually becoming lord of Winterfell and if Ramsay is killed soon, then people might be like "well she was married to Tyrion first and they never officially were annulled...". Tyrion informs Dany that his wife is in Winterfell and bing, he becomes Warden of the North for her and is the one who has to face the White Walkers. It would be a bit poetic with him having been interested in going north to see the wall, hearing the plea of Mormont, etc.
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Peter Dinklage performs Game of Thrones: The Musical for Red Nose Day
I remember the original draft mentioned him eventually becoming lord of Winterfell and if Ramsay is killed soon, then people might be like "well she was married to Tyrion first and they never officially were annulled...". Tyrion informs Dany that his wife is in Winterfell and bing, he becomes Warden of the North for her and is the one who has to face the White Walkers. It would be a bit poetic with him having been interested in going north to see the wall, hearing the plea of Mormont, etc.
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Peter Dinklage performs Game of Thrones: The Musical for Red Nose Day
If it hasn't been mentioned already, the latest episode had the lowest ratings of the series on Rotten Tomatoes, coming out to a 59% and the first ever Rotten Rating an episode of Game of Thrones has received: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/game-of-thrones/s05/e06/
bengraven
Member
Which is sad because other than SanSnakeSa, the episode was fantastic.
Goes to show you that word of mouth in the age of delayed watching is dangerous.
Moff
Member
that wasn't the trial, it was a hearing and will now go to trial
badcrumble
Member
Doesn't make sense for it to work out that way if they're adapting the books whatsoever, tbh - someone's got to stay behind at Winterfell to make some shit go down there at the same time that the battle is raging.
I said indicted. I guess the right word would have been hearing, but i forgot since i'm not a native speaker and it's quite late here.
Incredibly weird that the average rating is still 8/10. I'm not even sure how that's possible if 41% of the reviews are rotten, therefore graded as 5.9/10 max (just did some math, I guess if ALL the positive reviews are 10/10, and ALL the negative reviews are 6/10, then the average would be around 8.3/10, which feeds into my next point...). Rotten Tomatoes TV reviews are kind of weird anyways, as most TV "reviews" aren't really reviews but recaps with some critique mixed in, and not many even have scores. Most episodes of most shows wind up with 100%, it seems.
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