Yep. And that's fine. But we learned nothing new about the characters other than Reek referring to himself as Theon.
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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 5 - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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Robb's wedding is probably the shortest. This one is right in the middle.
Oh yeah, forgot about Robb's. Yeah, some of the weddings are dedicated events while others just happen as montages. Robb's was tied to Tyrion and Shae reaffirming their love for each other, Tommen's was tied to screwing Margaery, Joffrey's was just the precursor to his long dinner death. Edmure's was super long. Tyrion's was pretty long too.
Dusk Soldier
Member
I'm pretty sure the scene is supposed represent the breaking point for Theon, where he goes from being a victim, to taking his destiny into his own hands.
Never mind all the torture he personally endured, he watched one of Ramsey's exes get ripped to shreds by hounds. He knows what the endgame is for Sansa, and he's not going to want to watch one of his childhood friends endure all that.
And it's really weird that people keep repeating that the scene was pointless. This storyline is lifted straight out of ADwD. It was very predictable that this was going to happen, and also where the story goes from here.
bodyofanamerican
Member
I won't say it's pointless, but I would say that many of us who read the books love Theon's arc (IMO it's the best writing GRRM has done), and many of us don't like seeing Sansa seemingly starting from square one again (being abused and now actually sexually assaulted) to juice up Theon's story.
I just don't think it needed it, and with all the floundering around LF's "explanation" for why he did it and how she ended up there, the seams of D&D's story streamlining are really showing, and it's unfortunately involving one character many of us prefer not to be in the situation to begin with and another character (and actor for that matter) whose redemption arc didn't need another main character we've followed for years getting abused yet again, in a much more brutal and direct manner.
hendersonhank
Member
What a terrible analogy. I don't know how many ways it can be said. Sansa travelled to Winterfell for the explicit purpose of marrying Ramsay. She can not "marry" without consummating, therefore she went there with every intention of consummating the marriage. She went to the room with every intention of consummating, again as part of HER plan. She never said a word of protest or even suggested waiting.
There was literally no conceivable outcome for marrying Ramsay, much less going to his bedchamber on the wedding night, other than consummating the marriage.That's literally exactly and expressly what they were BOTH there to do.
Being unhappy about losing her virginity to this creep, or crying because losing her virginity hurts, doesn't make it rape. Being a creep, Ramsay no doubt would have raped her if she'd resisted, but she didn't. No rape took place.
reelbigtink
Member
Sadly you are correct. George wrote himself into a corner with this and now he has to stick to it or fans will cry.
Or he could just purposefully never release the books and stick it to them in a much more fun, trolly way!
Not even that is new. He has used it under Ramsay orders before to take Mot Caitlin. Obviously "Reek" wasn't going to be delivering Sansa, they needed a proper ceremony.
I expect the rage to build after each episode. This is Ramsey's M.V.P. season.
But its weird. Not like any of this is out of left field. Ya'll know what is going to happen to Stannis, The Bastard's Letter is a thing. Jon getting stabbed. Dany getting captured. For all the complaining about deviating from the books, did you want something different?
But its weird. Not like any of this is out of left field. Ya'll know what is going to happen to Stannis, The Bastard's Letter is a thing. Jon getting stabbed. Dany getting captured. For all the complaining about deviating from the books, did you want something different?
I feel like I'm the only person who is completely at peace with Littlefinger's convoluted plan because it makes sense in the way the show currently works.
Tywin Lannister is dead, which means the Lannisters lack the military and political intelligence they once had.
Littlefinger and Varys have both either fled or turned on the crown in various ways, so neither has spies reporting directly to Queen Cersei. I can earnestly believe from all characterizations of this woman that she knows absolutely nothing beyond her own walls.
Taken from this angle, Littlefinger signed a marriage contract with the Boltons, and Roose knew what he was signing. He knew what would happen if Cersei ever found out, and he did it anyway with the understanding that Littlefinger had climbed into the same leaky boat.
Now, the main hole in this whole plan as brought up by many of its staunchest critics is that if anyone told of Littlefinger's involvement, he would be implicated and killed. Hell, he's right in King's Landing. He's one Vale raven away from an execution, but an execution by whom?
The power in KL has shifted from the city watch and royal kingsguard to the sparrows. People brought up the absurdity of Tommen's smaller force, but I think his own men are starting to abandon him. Cersei is crippling the crown's defenses and is about to get her own son killed, but that's another issue.
Back to Littlefinger. Now, we established in season 4 that the lords of the Vale are fiercely loyal to the Stark family and would not give Sansa over to the crown because they could simply lie. The Boltons are of course considered traitors for ever accepting the deal in the first place, so they're willing to let it stay a secret for however long they can.
It's true that Sansa's reason for agreeing to all of this stuff is very sketchy. She has a very small chance of succeeding in exacting any king of revenge, but she could turn on Littlefinger, and Sunday's episode gave her every reason to.
Now, is Littlefinger crazy? Sure. Is the plot invented and not from the books? Absolutely. But is it unheard of for Littlefinger to pit every army against each other? Not at all.
See, the critics of this whole scenario always point out how fast news travels in Westeros, but Littlefinger no longer needs a great secretive plan. All he needs is a war and a new position.
Also, if Littlefinger succeeds in becoming Warden of the North, there's no way he isn't also succeeding in the books.
Tywin Lannister is dead, which means the Lannisters lack the military and political intelligence they once had.
Littlefinger and Varys have both either fled or turned on the crown in various ways, so neither has spies reporting directly to Queen Cersei. I can earnestly believe from all characterizations of this woman that she knows absolutely nothing beyond her own walls.
Taken from this angle, Littlefinger signed a marriage contract with the Boltons, and Roose knew what he was signing. He knew what would happen if Cersei ever found out, and he did it anyway with the understanding that Littlefinger had climbed into the same leaky boat.
Now, the main hole in this whole plan as brought up by many of its staunchest critics is that if anyone told of Littlefinger's involvement, he would be implicated and killed. Hell, he's right in King's Landing. He's one Vale raven away from an execution, but an execution by whom?
The power in KL has shifted from the city watch and royal kingsguard to the sparrows. People brought up the absurdity of Tommen's smaller force, but I think his own men are starting to abandon him. Cersei is crippling the crown's defenses and is about to get her own son killed, but that's another issue.
Back to Littlefinger. Now, we established in season 4 that the lords of the Vale are fiercely loyal to the Stark family and would not give Sansa over to the crown because they could simply lie. The Boltons are of course considered traitors for ever accepting the deal in the first place, so they're willing to let it stay a secret for however long they can.
It's true that Sansa's reason for agreeing to all of this stuff is very sketchy. She has a very small chance of succeeding in exacting any king of revenge, but she could turn on Littlefinger, and Sunday's episode gave her every reason to.
Now, is Littlefinger crazy? Sure. Is the plot invented and not from the books? Absolutely. But is it unheard of for Littlefinger to pit every army against each other? Not at all.
See, the critics of this whole scenario always point out how fast news travels in Westeros, but Littlefinger no longer needs a great secretive plan. All he needs is a war and a new position.
Also, if Littlefinger succeeds in becoming Warden of the North, there's no way he isn't also succeeding in the books.
She did not consent to be brutalized -- and yes, that's what Ramsay was doing, hence, Theon's reaction and her cries of pain. She was clearly terrified of him, and that was by his own design. That was rape.
Reek's pov are the only way to show what's going on in the north and his turn as Reek is treated as a sick twist. Jeyne is his redemption. In the show there is very little reason to give a shit about him. If it weren't for the terrific performance by Alfie Allen, it would seem like the show was wasting A LOT of time on this pitiful shithead who most don't even think deserves a redemption. And yes, it would be pretty sad if Sansa's detour in Winterfell amounts to being rescued by Theon and dumped into Stannis' lap.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
What if Sansa didn't go to Winterfell to take over for fArya? I think it would have been better if they had somehow incorporated her and Littlefinger into a revenge plot against the Freys instead - maybe give her Lady Stoneheart's role. Bring back the Freys, Blackfish, Edmure, and throw Brienne and Pod into the mix as well.
You're still getting to diverge from the books and you're still getting to "contract the world" by putting more of the characters together - but I think in a much more logical and compelling way. This way, Sansa doesn't have to be revictimized (which isn't to say that she won't still experience bad stuff in future books - just that she probably won't get raped and have it feel like her arc has been undermined for shock value and that it's just going in circles), while still getting something "big" to actually do this season. It also saves Littlefinger's characterization as well because he no longer has to be dumb in order to move us past the giant plot hole of him not knowing about Ramsay's nature.
I also think the Riverlands would be just as thematically powerful and relevant as the North, due to Sansa and Littlefinger's connection to the Tullys (and Freys, obviously).
And hell, since Dorne has been an absolute disaster thus far, why not just cut it entirely?
Ellaria's mission doesn't even make sense - "Oberyn was murdered!!!!" - naw gurl, he wasn't. Cutting the dumb revenge subplot, as well as the Maggy the Frog prophecies, would eliminate the need to reintroduce Myrcella - and I doubt anyone would care if we never saw her again. Same for Ellaria.
Cutting Myrcella pretty much eliminates the need for Dorne on the show (especially since Arianne and Quentyn are cut, as well as Aegon and Jon Connington), as well as the dreadful Sand Snakes, Trystane, and Prince Doran, who has done nothing in 6 episodes.
Cutting Dorne then frees Jaime up for a variation of his book plot where he goes to the Riverlands, where...ta da! Brienne, Pod, Sansa, Littlefinger, etc. etc. are all at! A far more compelling storyline for him than Dorne. Bronn can even go along as well for some kool bro antics and then maybe we'd even see The Brotherhood at some point too. All those different characters in the same vicinity is much more compelling than the fractured stuff we have now, imo.
And then, since Dorne is gone, maybe reintroduce the Greyjoys (obviously adjusting some of the arcs for obvious reasons) and have them somehow play into what's going on in the North with Reek, Ramsay, Stannis, Jon, et al.
OR
Introduce White Harbor and bring back Osha and Rickon (they aged up all of the other young characters so Rickon can be older too) and fold them into the North stuff in some way instead.
Either way, you're not introducing a bunch of new characters that live in a far away land who have little to do with anything else on the show.
Anyway, I don't even know if any of that would work but I was bored.
You're still getting to diverge from the books and you're still getting to "contract the world" by putting more of the characters together - but I think in a much more logical and compelling way. This way, Sansa doesn't have to be revictimized (which isn't to say that she won't still experience bad stuff in future books - just that she probably won't get raped and have it feel like her arc has been undermined for shock value and that it's just going in circles), while still getting something "big" to actually do this season. It also saves Littlefinger's characterization as well because he no longer has to be dumb in order to move us past the giant plot hole of him not knowing about Ramsay's nature.
I also think the Riverlands would be just as thematically powerful and relevant as the North, due to Sansa and Littlefinger's connection to the Tullys (and Freys, obviously).
And hell, since Dorne has been an absolute disaster thus far, why not just cut it entirely?
Ellaria's mission doesn't even make sense - "Oberyn was murdered!!!!" - naw gurl, he wasn't. Cutting the dumb revenge subplot, as well as the Maggy the Frog prophecies, would eliminate the need to reintroduce Myrcella - and I doubt anyone would care if we never saw her again. Same for Ellaria.
Cutting Myrcella pretty much eliminates the need for Dorne on the show (especially since Arianne and Quentyn are cut, as well as Aegon and Jon Connington), as well as the dreadful Sand Snakes, Trystane, and Prince Doran, who has done nothing in 6 episodes.
Cutting Dorne then frees Jaime up for a variation of his book plot where he goes to the Riverlands, where...ta da! Brienne, Pod, Sansa, Littlefinger, etc. etc. are all at! A far more compelling storyline for him than Dorne. Bronn can even go along as well for some kool bro antics and then maybe we'd even see The Brotherhood at some point too. All those different characters in the same vicinity is much more compelling than the fractured stuff we have now, imo.
And then, since Dorne is gone, maybe reintroduce the Greyjoys (obviously adjusting some of the arcs for obvious reasons) and have them somehow play into what's going on in the North with Reek, Ramsay, Stannis, Jon, et al.
OR
Introduce White Harbor and bring back Osha and Rickon (they aged up all of the other young characters so Rickon can be older too) and fold them into the North stuff in some way instead.
Either way, you're not introducing a bunch of new characters that live in a far away land who have little to do with anything else on the show.
Anyway, I don't even know if any of that would work but I was bored.
If they HAD to send Jaime to Dorne:
He goes instead of Balon Swan, bearing the Mountains head, apologizes about Oberyn and invites Mycella and Trystane to Kings Landing. I would really have liked to have seen an intelligent, likable Myrcella to contrast Tommens mental handicap as well. Stuff like the Trystane/Myrcella assassination plots would be where shit hits the fan and Bronn is killed and Myrcella maimed.
On the show: What are the chances of Bronn betraying Jaime for a poison antidote?
He goes instead of Balon Swan, bearing the Mountains head, apologizes about Oberyn and invites Mycella and Trystane to Kings Landing. I would really have liked to have seen an intelligent, likable Myrcella to contrast Tommens mental handicap as well. Stuff like the Trystane/Myrcella assassination plots would be where shit hits the fan and Bronn is killed and Myrcella maimed.
On the show: What are the chances of Bronn betraying Jaime for a poison antidote?
I don't think the plan for going to Dorne was bad. The execution, however, has been atrocious. We've seen more sets in a single episode for Volantis than we have in multiple episodes for Dorne.
I knew it was going to be bad when they introduced the Sand Snakes under a brown Wal-Mart canopy.
I knew it was going to be bad when they introduced the Sand Snakes under a brown Wal-Mart canopy.
I always take the wait and see approach with this show, but Sansa being reduced to rape victim by Ramsay is a detriment to her growth as a character. We see four seasons of Sansa being emotionally tortured, she finally seems to use her experiences to change into a more capable character, and then we just go back to her being a victim someone needs to save. Regardless, I thought the scene was well done and Alfie Allen is a nuanced and skilled actor.
The Dorne stuff is just not good, but I like Hotah and Bronn punching Trystane is kind of funny. As uninteresting as the Dorne plot line was in AFFC, it's even more dull here. Not even Darkstar can save it.
There is good stuff though. Anya's plot line is perfect. It could be a bit better paced, I mean she's gotta go from sweeping floors to killing off fools in four episodes. But the show has done an excellent job of portraying the House of Black and White and its inhabitants. A lot of people thought the return of Jaqen meant snarky training sessions, but it's clear that the show wants to convey the solemnity and mystery of the faceless men.
The King's Landing scenes have also been excellent this year. It's always good to see an Olenna tongue lashing and Cersei's patronizing smarminess is a perfect set up for the ending of this season. Pryce as High Sparrow is perhaps the best new performance this year. I don't mind Loras being arrested so much now that Margaery is also going in the can. Though the fuck Tommen, I'd send every knight in the seven kingdoms, a dothraki horde, the unsullied, the golden company, and as many faceless men as possible if I was married to Natalie Dormer.
The Dorne stuff is just not good, but I like Hotah and Bronn punching Trystane is kind of funny. As uninteresting as the Dorne plot line was in AFFC, it's even more dull here. Not even Darkstar can save it.
There is good stuff though. Anya's plot line is perfect. It could be a bit better paced, I mean she's gotta go from sweeping floors to killing off fools in four episodes. But the show has done an excellent job of portraying the House of Black and White and its inhabitants. A lot of people thought the return of Jaqen meant snarky training sessions, but it's clear that the show wants to convey the solemnity and mystery of the faceless men.
The King's Landing scenes have also been excellent this year. It's always good to see an Olenna tongue lashing and Cersei's patronizing smarminess is a perfect set up for the ending of this season. Pryce as High Sparrow is perhaps the best new performance this year. I don't mind Loras being arrested so much now that Margaery is also going in the can. Though the fuck Tommen, I'd send every knight in the seven kingdoms, a dothraki horde, the unsullied, the golden company, and as many faceless men as possible if I was married to Natalie Dormer.
Moff
Member
nah I have defended the reasioning behind littlefingers motivations plenty of times by now. I really like varys and him. I even like aidan gillans acting,including the stilly voice, his interaction with lancel was gold in the last episode. I am really wondering if they will imprison him too and he will be the one that rats cersei out.
Discotheque
Banned
King's Landing and Stannis stuff is the reason to tune in weekly now, everything else is varying degrees of mediocre imo.
GordonHalfman
Member
I agree, I was actually looking forward to the stuff with Trystane and Myrcella, I thought it could have been interesting. She's a character we don't see much of in the books, she seems to be a decent person which I always thought was pretty admirable given she has Cersei for a mother. She's also meant to be clever which makes a contrast with Tommen as you say, and which also brings into focus the different attitudes to gender equality in Dorn and the succession law. It would be interesting to know what she actually thinks about Dornish law, what she really thinks about Cersei and Joffrey, what is it like living among people who hate her family, does she have the same kind of relationship with the Lannister name as Tyrion does or not really, does she care about the incest allegations, does she suspect Jaime might be her dad, worry about being an abomination etc.
From the beginning of the books Tommen and Myrcella have been a kind of dark question hanging over the various rebels against the Iron Throne like Stannis and Robb, what did they plan to do with Cersei's children if they win, and will they end up the same way as Rhaegar's. It's important in the books that the feud between the Martells and Lannisters is as much about Elia and Aegon and Rhaenys as it is about Oberyn. It's a generation long blood feud and Myrcella's maiming propagates it to another generation in a way that Doran wanted to avoid.
Anyway I don't really get any of this coming across in the show. We just have two insipid horny teenagers surrounded by.. whatever the hell that was. And the whole thing gets so little screen time, given they cast six new people and a new shooting location. Maybe they were planning more but cut it down when they realized it was terrible.
Rat Cersei out on what?
If the Faith Militant need to put Cersei on blast they already have Lancel at hand...
Thoughts: what's stopping Stannis / The North just taking KL right now?
Power sits where people think it does and right now who's army is guarding the capital? The Lannister army are controlled by Kevan, not Cersai and could be held up in The Westerlands. Tyrell's may abandon them any time now. Dorne? no chance. The Vale? probably not.
It's odd how the shift has gone from power lying in KL to it being spread all over the place.
Power sits where people think it does and right now who's army is guarding the capital? The Lannister army are controlled by Kevan, not Cersai and could be held up in The Westerlands. Tyrell's may abandon them any time now. Dorne? no chance. The Vale? probably not.
It's odd how the shift has gone from power lying in KL to it being spread all over the place.
Red Arremer
Member
The North is in disarray with various factions having formed. Stannis' army is far too small to beat the combined Lannister/Tyrell host.
I was reading some blog entries and analysis about the warfare/army sizes, and the estimation of the combined Tyrell and Lannister forces is at around 100,000 while Stannis with the Clansmen is at around 4000 (obviously that's book numbers, but still).
I was reading some blog entries and analysis about the warfare/army sizes, and the estimation of the combined Tyrell and Lannister forces is at around 100,000 while Stannis with the Clansmen is at around 4000 (obviously that's book numbers, but still).
Sure, I was thinking more like: The Vale / Riverlands / Boltons, and I was assuming no Tyrell back-up.
In fact, the Tyrells could if they wanted...
Red Arremer
Member
The Riverlander forces are almost entirely depleted from the massive wars. The only stronger host that exists are the Freys, most others have taken massive losses from the various battles, Clegane's raids and the Red Wedding.
The Northern armies all are pretty depleted as well. Roose Bolton made sure to safe his own men from harm as much as he could while ensuring that the other lords' forces were weakened. This includes sending Glover, Cerwyn and Tallhart forces against Duskendale where they were completely destroyed by the army of Randyll Tarly.
The Vale's military strength is unknown.
Additionally, the Tyrells will not break up the alliance with the Lannisters. They've spent a lot of resources and manpower to ensure Margaery being on the throne. They could probably take out the Lannisters in open rebellion, but there's absolutely no reason to do that, and of course, you have to keep in mind that there's various factions within the Reach as well.
It's obvious that the Lannisters are in decline, especially with Cersei sabotaging the relationship with the Tyrells. But even despite that, the Tyrells have no reason to break off their alliance with the Lannisters.
The Northern armies all are pretty depleted as well. Roose Bolton made sure to safe his own men from harm as much as he could while ensuring that the other lords' forces were weakened. This includes sending Glover, Cerwyn and Tallhart forces against Duskendale where they were completely destroyed by the army of Randyll Tarly.
The Vale's military strength is unknown.
Additionally, the Tyrells will not break up the alliance with the Lannisters. They've spent a lot of resources and manpower to ensure Margaery being on the throne. They could probably take out the Lannisters in open rebellion, but there's absolutely no reason to do that, and of course, you have to keep in mind that there's various factions within the Reach as well.
It's obvious that the Lannisters are in decline, especially with Cersei sabotaging the relationship with the Tyrells. But even despite that, the Tyrells have no reason to break off their alliance with the Lannisters.
Red Arremer
Member
Normally I wouldn't try to be such a smartass, but as mentioned I just recently read these articles and they were very informative in regards to the military situation in Westeros.
It's by far my biggest contention with the season so far. It feels like no thought was put in constructing this plot or fleshing out any of the characters. The problem is so much deeper than bad fight choreography or bad acting from the Sand Snakes.
The characters I actually care about in the book/show are dwindling. When we left ADWD Jon is presumed dead or dying and Stannis (per the bastards letter) is presumed defeated. If these both turn out to be true then I'm not sure who I have a vested interest in seeing succeed and therefore would be less interested in the show/books. Would I quit them altogether? No, but I would likely not anticipate them the way I do now or watch/read with earnest.
Normally I wouldn't try to be such a smartass, but as mentioned I just recently read these articles and they were very informative in regards to the military situation in Westeros.
You provided the link to the blogs discussing Stannis and the strength/loyalty of the houses yes? That was a good read thanks for sharing.
If the show ever got Season 2&3 levels of boring again I would probably be skipping episodes.
And this is why boredom complaints confuse me. I mean I don't agree with you about season 3 at least, but people saying this season is different in that regard just blows my mind.
Red Arremer
Member
No, that was someone else, actually.
But to link it again: analysis of Tywin, the analysis of the upcoming battle of Winterfell (which includes an analysis of Stannis in the North).
There's various other articles/series of articles, but these 2 are very interesting.
hipsterpants
Member
Highgarden sounds like way too nice of a place. I'm guessing it will be a desolate wasteland by the end of the series.
Basileus777
Member
They should have cut the sand snakes altogether. They are lame in the books and translating them to a visual medium without making them even worse was always going to be a challenge. Arianne, Doran, Ellaria, Mycella, Hotah, and Trystane are all the Dornish characters you need.
cartoon_soldier
Member
This. Sand snakes should have been cut completely. Focus more on Doran's plan.
They should have kept faegeon. Only to give the show a more war is still coming like atmosphere, have Tyrion be kidnapped earlier, Varys go for Faegon stuff.
I don't mind them in the books but yeah if your cutting characters they are the first to go before Arianne.
Bingo. They probably thought they needed some action. The casting director should have pulled rank and killed the storyline herself.
Yep. The show focusing so much of the revenge on Oberyns 'murder!' is also weird. The emphasis should be on the long running feud between their houses.
hipsterpants
Member
Sand snakes were probably included because of Oberyn's popularity.
cartoon_soldier
Member
Yea but...these sneks can't act or do anything.
I think Ellarianne could have worked if they actually developed it a little bit, if she actually took a few minutes to talk with someone and come up with the Queenmaker plan, instead of just running around shouting revenge and having three girls who follow her blindly. Like, if we had an actual scene of Ellaria and the Sand Snakes talking like real people. Their problem isn't so much the characters they chose to use as it is their apparent belief that the story and the characters and their motivations all have to be as mind-numbingly simple as possible or else they'll confuse people.
Probably explained it wrong, but that was the one I read, and you are correct - they were very interesting.
Been a while since I read the series, but isn't it insinuated that Doran is playing the game at Littlefinger like power levels? Just been behind the scenes till now?
thequickandthedead
Member
As someone who just caught up, what was the book-reading community's reaction to Barristan getting killed off?
'WHY D&D YOU HACK FRAUDS WHYYYYYYY'
cartoon_soldier
Member
He has a plan to stake claim. Problem is in the show they haven't spent anytime on it. I would expect them to do so next episode. We could have easily instead just skipped sand snakes, have scenes with Doran and Ellaria talking about revenge, explore the house rivalry a bit more, have Doran explain his plan to Ellaria/Hotah. Then have Jamie/Bronn come in, get captured.
On show, we just went:
Me Oberyn Likey, He dead, me want war
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