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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 5 - Sundays on HBO

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D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
I'm still waiting for the episode The Fedora Strikes Back.
 
I

Iksenpets

Banned
Brakke said:
I didn't read Mercy yet. Arya probably going to kill Meryn Trant tho. Is that congruent with Mercy? Or will that be a different thing entirely?



Because if Jon's mom is of the line of the Icy North and his dad is of the line of the Dragonlords, then he's unique in being a child of Ice and Fire.
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Winds preview:
It's pretty much directly congruent, just with Meryn taking the place of a more minor person off Arya's list, and Mace replacing the Master of Coin from the book. The basic story of Cersei sending an envoy to the Iron Bank with a guard who Arya wants to murder is all there.
 
E

Electric_ Cthulhu

Member
Ganzlinger said:
Yeah, that's exactly my point. Why people are so sure it's about Jon? Or that the entire story is about him, the king Arthur of Westeros. It's too vague.
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Sure, it could mean something totally different. But I keep coming back to Dany's vision in the House of the Undying. "He is the prince that was promised. And his is The Song of Ice and Fire. We are let to believe that this is about Aegon, but I think it references to Jon. I cannot imagine all those hints that Martin put in the books are just are giant red herrings.
 
B

brotherbean

Member
AkuMifune said:
Just that his mom's identity has always been shady and they always go out of their way to say Rhaegar raped Ned's sister. More likely they ran off together, had Jon and Ned used his Honor as a shield to cover it up and save face. I'm sure if people found out Ned's bastard was actually Rhaegar's son they would have had him (Jon) executed.

But he has too much of Ned in him and will never leave his duty on the wall. So no king I imagine, but at least some child of prophecy. Also I'm sure someone more eloquent can summarize it better.
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Can someone clarify this for me? It's been a while since I read the books but if Jon really is the outcome of a mutual affection between Rhaegs and Lyanna, does that make Robert Baratheon's whole war/usurping totally unfounded? I was under the impression that practically the entire reason he went to war was Rhaegs "kidnapping" Lyanna...

Apologies if this has been obvious to everyone for ages but it just kind of popped in my head as another reason Ned might want to keep Jon's lineage a secret. If everyone found out that their entire cause for war was built on a misunderstanding, it'd just be one more slight on Ned's honor as he was a pretty active participant in Robert's winning the throne.
 
K

kirblar

Member
brotherbean said:
Can someone clarify this for me? It's been a while since I read the books but if Jon really is the outcome of a mutual affection between Rhaegs and Lyanna, does that make Robert Baratheon's whole war/usurping totally unfounded? I was under the impression that practically the entire reason he went to war was Rhaegs "kidnapping" Lyanna...

Apologies if this has been obvious to everyone for ages but it just kind of popped in my head as another reason Ned might want to keep Jon's lineage a secret. If everyone found out that their entire cause for war was built on a misunderstanding, it'd just be one more slight on Ned's honor as he was a pretty active participant in Robert's winning the throne.
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Yes. Robert would be the "bad guy" from most perspectives.
 
Z

Zolo

Member
The mad king demanded Ned's and Robert's heads, and that was the main reason for the war though that was after he killed Ned's father and brother for Rhaegar's kidnapping of Lyanna.....which is at least what they would assume it was.
 
T

TheNamesPlissken

Neo Member
Well not really. Aerys was still insane and burned Rickon and Brandon Stark alive. Rhaegar and Lyanna did not declare themselves and their love publicly, they ran off and I would argue that Robert and Ned had zero choice in their response. It wasn't like she put Robert down gently, rhaegar and her got married and Robert just was a jilted lover and murdered everyone to get his revenge.

Aerys was legitimately ready to kill everyone in fire. Rhaegar was nowhere to be found for much of the rebellion, including abandoning his actual family and children. As romanticized as Rhaegar has become in the fandom he still was a massive dick, even if he was driven by prophecy.
 
G

-griffy-

Banned
brotherbean said:
Can someone clarify this for me? It's been a while since I read the books but if Jon really is the outcome of a mutual affection between Rhaegs and Lyanna, does that make Robert Baratheon's whole war/usurping totally unfounded? I was under the impression that practically the entire reason he went to war was Rhaegs "kidnapping" Lyanna...

Apologies if this has been obvious to everyone for ages but it just kind of popped in my head as another reason Ned might want to keep Jon's lineage a secret. If everyone found out that their entire cause for war was built on a misunderstanding, it'd just be one more slight on Ned's honor as he was a pretty active participant in Robert's winning the throne.
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You know how they say "history is written by the victors?" This would be an example of that. It's of note that the whole "Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna" story is always presented from the Stark/Baratheon perspective. The show even made a blatant point of it by Littlefinger's skeptical look when Sansa repeats the "kidnapped and raped" story, like "Yeah? You sure that's what happened?" followed up by Barriston's story of the kind, gentle Rhaegar who walks the streets singing, which is completely contradictory to the way he is portrayed by the Starks/Baratheons.
 
S

Speevy

Banned
The rape of Sansa was unnecessary, but it wasn't useless to the plot.

Useless would be something that they did and never brought up again.
 
K

Kain

Member
Rhaegar was obsessed with profecies and some say he thought he was Azor Ahai (or the Westeros equivalent), then when he met Lyanna he thought his son would be Azor Ahai (Jon), so he had the bright idea of hiding her in the Tower of joy. The exact reason why he hid them there is not clear, but he probably was paranoid that if Robert got hold of her he would kill her before delivering his son. It all fits with Jon being AA and the savior of everything. I just hope George doesn't change his mind because even if Jon being Jesus Christ is a cliche, it is a pretty awesome one.
 
G

-griffy-

Banned
kirblar said:
There was no chance that was getting cut. Given the setup for it, the stabby stuff is definitely going down this season - the question is whether or not they rez him this season or next.
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I still think a shot of Jon's eyes going white as he "dies" could be in. They can even remind the audience of this visual by having a wildling warg at Hardhome or something.
 
K

kirblar

Member
-griffy- said:
I still think a shot of Jon's eyes going white as he "dies" could be in. They can even remind the audience by having a wildling warg at Hardhome or something.
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Ya, that's likely exactly what they're going to do- they're not going to leave it ambiguous because cliffhangers simply don't work as an end-of-season thing here.

I wonder if that's why it looks like Arya's blind/warg plot may not be in this season. Either it's not relevant, or they don't want to do it before Jon's.
 
S

Sean C

Member
Damerman said:
in regards to this... i really can't help but feel like that this is the reason why Sansa was raped. If news of this reaches jon snow, it will force him to want to go south which leads to the mutiny. Honestly, it didn't take "rape" for jon to make the brash decision in the book. I don't see why they decided to do that to justify Theon's and Jon's reactions.
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Sansa being raped is not really different from the books in terms of Jon's reaction to it -- he thinks Arya is Ramsay's bride, and he knows Arya definitely would not want to marry Ramsay.

That said, I'm increasingly of the opinion that the Pink Letter is out of the show, based on how the season has been written (though, granted, the writers regularly include stuff without the context that makes it truly meaningful). It makes sense for Ramsay to send the letter to Jon in the books because Jon has been actively involved both in Stannis' campaign and in Mance's bid to rescue fArya. The show has removed both of those things.

Firstly, Jon has been rigidly neutral concerning Stannis, and has not provided him with any advice about the Northern campaign, nor have the Boltons even mentioned him, nor has anybody at the Watch objected to his conduct (the storyline of Watch disaffection is exclusively about his friendliness with the Wildlings)

Secondly, with the evident Mance/Brienne substitution, Jon is not involved in the rescue of fArya.

In addition to the way the Night's Watch plotline has been rewritten to focus solely on Jon's attitudes toward the Wildlings, in the books Jon was tormented pretty much all of the book regarding fArya's being in the hands of the Boltons; in the show it doesn't look like he's going to hear about it at all before he leaves for Hardhome, meaning that it will come up in the last two episodes, at most.
 
G

Ganzlinger

Member
Electric_ Cthulhu said:
Sure, it could mean something totally different. But I keep coming back to Dany's vision in the House of the Undying. "He is the prince that was promised. And his is The Song of Ice and Fire. We are let to believe that this is about Aegon, but I think it references to Jon. I cannot imagine all those hints that Martin put in the books are just are giant red herrings.
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I see, I really don't remember exactly what she saw inside the House of the Undying. But that's make sense.

I always assumed that there wasn't any main protagonist so the "Song of Ice and Fire" was about their lives or the final event that I think will be White Walkers vs. The Realm of Men led by the King in the Iron Throne with the dragons. It would be a song about the war not someone in particular.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Real Hero said:
He's definitely going into Ghost before any real resurrection. Maybe the show should have hinted at his warging ability by now!
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There are things to keep as shock value. Warging being part of the Stark bloodline (and not just a Bran thing) is definitely one of them. They've certainly shown enough warging for the audience to collectively go "oh SHIT" when it happens.
 
R

Real Hero

Member
kirblar said:
There are things to keep as shock value. Warging being part of the Stark bloodline (and not just a Bran thing) is definitely one of them. They've certainly shown enough warging for the audience to collectively go "oh SHIT" when it happens.
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I dunno, people might forget that warging is even a thing in a season without Bran.
 
S

Speevy

Banned
You loved Jon Snow! Well, you were reasonably tolerant of his existence in any case.


Now he's the most depressing direwolf anyone ever had.


Jon: "Sam, we have to leave. The whitewalkers are coming."

Samwell: "What's that boy? You want a treat?"

Samwell: "I tried to teach him some tricks, but it's like he knows nothing."
 
G

-griffy-

Banned
Real Hero said:
I dunno, people might forget that warging is even a thing in a season without Bran.
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See my post here. If warging is a necessary part of Jon's story, there are very easy ways they can reintroduce it to remind the audience if they need to.
-griffy- said:
I still think a shot of Jon's eyes going white as he "dies" could be in. They can even remind the audience of this visual by having a wildling warg at Hardhome or something.
Click to expand...

Hell, with that article about the wolf,
it says his "big moment" is in the May 24th episode, which would be this Sunday, which would be before Jon is even at Hardhome. Maybe they are going to straight up introduce Jon having a warg ability this week? Or maybe Ghost is just gonna be chewing on a bone again. I'm honestly curious what Ghost's big moment could be in this episode, compared to Hardhome or when Jon is stabbed.
 
T

Thorgal

Member
Brakke said:
"A Feast for Crows"? How Jon going to come back if they cannibalize him??
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Melisandre will make them all puke him back out in a hole , then lit's Shireen on fire and tossing her also in the hole , cue giant fire pillar rising out of the hole and once it's gone, the camera will go from shocked faces of the people of the watch to a pleased looking melisandre and then cut to an air view look of the hole ,revealing Jon lying in the hole alive and breathing stark naked .

Cut to black .
 
G

-griffy-

Banned
Thorgal said:
Melisandre will make them all puke him back out in a hole , then lit's Shireen on fire and tossing her also in the hole , cue giant fire pillar rising out of the hole and once it's gone, the camera will go from shocked faces of the people of the watch to a pleased looking melisandre and then cut to an air view look of the hole ,revealing Jon lying in the hole alive and breathing stark naked . Then a dragon screams.

Cut to black .
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Fixed that for you.
 
I

Iksenpets

Banned
-griffy- said:
See my post here. If warging is a necessary part of Jon's story, there are very easy ways they can reintroduce it to remind the audience if they need to.


Hell, with that article about the wolf,
it says his "big moment" is in the May 24th episode, which would be this Sunday, which would be before Jon is even at Hardhome. Maybe they are going to straight up introduce Jon having a warg ability this week? Or maybe Ghost is just gonna be chewing on a bone again. I'm honestly curious what Ghost's big moment could be in this episode, compared to Hardhome or when Jon is stabbed.
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It may just be Ghost acting menacing around Alisser as foreshadowing. Maybe they finally want to deal with the wolves sixth sense about that stuff.
 
H

hipsterpants

Member
Jon gets stabbed, he's lying on the ground breathing rapidly and bleeding out, then suddenly bam, he lurches back and his eyes turn white. Cut to black. Seriously that would be so good. Please do it D&D ;_;.
 
B

biosnake20

Member
hipsterpants said:
Jon gets stabbed, he's lying on the ground breathing rapidly and bleeding out, then suddenly bam, he lurches back and his eyes turn white. Cut to black. Seriously that would be so good. Please do it D&D ;_;.
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That's what I've thought they were gonna do for the longest time. It would technically be a spoiler but it would be a much better cliffhanger.
 
R

RatskyWatsky

Hunky Nostradamus
Forkball said:
There is good stuff though. Anya's plot line is perfect. It could be a bit better paced, I mean she's gotta go from sweeping floors to killing off fools in four episodes.
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I definitely feel like Arya's scenes should have been s/paced out better:

Episode 1: Absent
Episode 2: They spun their wheels by giving her a filler plot. She didn't even gain access to the HoBaW until the very end of the episode.
Episode 3: Finally, we get to the good stuff!
Episode 4: Absent
Episode 5: Absent
episode 6: More good stuff, but now she's going to leave already? wth?

Brakke said:
I'm so curious about the show-Jon play.
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He'll get stabbed but his eyes will turn warg-white and then the scene will end, leaving people to speculate all year about what it all means.

Red Arremer said:
Isn't Linda the one lady who is like super important to the "scene" but never read the Red Wedding?
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She skipped it the first time through due to great distress (the equivalent to the people who hid their eyes while watching the scene on the show), but has since gone back and read it.
 
I

Iksenpets

Banned
RatskyWatsky said:
I definitely feel like Arya's scenes should have been s/paced out better:

Episode 1: Absent
Episode 2: They spun their wheels by giving her a filler plot. She didn't even gain access to the HoBaW until the very end of the episode.
Episode 3: Finally, we get to the good stuff!
Episode 4: Absent
Episode 5: Absent
episode 6: More good stuff, but now she's going to leave already? wth?



He'll get stabbed but his eyes will turn warg-white and then the scene will end, leaving people to speculate all year about what it all means.



She skipped it the first time through due to great distress (the equivalent to the people who hid their eyes while watching the scene on the show), but has since gone back and read it.
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I still hold that they have had just the right amount of Arya. She doesn't have a ton of material to adapt, and doesn't have a lot of characters to interact with. I've really enjoyed the Arya material this season, but I don't think they could do much more without just diluting it with filler.

One of my big fears this season was that they would overly lean on Arya since she's popular, despite her lack of material, and I'm glad they haven't done that. Though maybe Arya filler would've been better than some of this stuff.
 
H

hipsterpants

Member
I would prefer that they don't go the route of HEY GUYS REMEMBER THAT PEOPLE CAN WARG LETS SPEND A LONG TIME LOOKING AT THIS WARGING WILDLING at Hardhome because it would diminish the impact after a season with no Bran. But they might think the viewing audience is too dumb to remember what the white eyes mean.
 
R

RatskyWatsky

Hunky Nostradamus
Iksenpets said:
I still hold that they have had just the right amount of Arya. She doesn't have a ton of material to adapt, and doesn't have a lot of characters to interact with. I've really enjoyed the Arya material this season, but I don't think they could do much more without just diluting it with filler.

One of my big fears this season was that they would overly lean on Arya since she's popular, despite her lack of material, and I'm glad they haven't done that. Though maybe Arya filler would've been better than some of this stuff.
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I don't think it would have been a bad idea to invent some new training exercises for Arya, or at least spread the existing ones around more evenly so that there's a better sense of her progression throughout the season.

PhoenixDark said:
interesting that Linda calls it a rape, when she has spent the last decade arguing Robert never raped Cersei since they were married and by the standards of the time it wasn't rape.
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I believe that they bring up the Robert/Cersei thing during the Sansa segment of their review of episode 6.
 
Z

Zabka

Member
hipsterpants said:
I would prefer that they don't go the route of HEY GUYS REMEMBER THAT PEOPLE CAN WARG LETS SPEND A LONG TIME LOOKING AT THIS WARGING WILDLING at Hardhome because it would diminish the impact after a season with no Bran. But they might think the viewing audience is too dumb to remember what the white eyes mean.
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It's gonna be all that plus a guy acting all cryptic about his "second life"
 
S

suzu

Member
They can do the white eyes thing with Jon and then show a brief shot of Ghost - end scene. If viewers can't put that together... lol.
 
V

Veritigo_X

Member
hipsterpants said:
I would prefer that they don't go the route of HEY GUYS REMEMBER THAT PEOPLE CAN WARG LETS SPEND A LONG TIME LOOKING AT THIS WARGING WILDLING at Hardhome because it would diminish the impact after a season with no Bran. But they might think the viewing audience is too dumb to remember what the white eyes mean.
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As soon as Jon's eyes turn white there will be a wildling yell "HE'S WARGING!" Black screen, end of season.
 
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