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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 5 - Sundays on HBO

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Sean C

Member
Dude comes outta nowhere, busts into the septon vote with armed men and comes out as the new high septon. Definitely fishy.
He didn't come out of nowhere. He came from the Riverlands.

Theories that Littlefinger, Varys, etc. are behind things like the Sparrows just don't work for me, because it essentially reduces the whole series down the schemes of a handful of people. And there's no shortage of such scheming already; the Sparrows are one of the few populist movements in the books, and they have a completely organic origin story that doesn't require any further explanation. Having them be some kind of ploy undermines completely the ideas they represent.
 

Speevy

Banned
Actually, Littlefinger conspiring to put the High Sparrow in power makes more sense than Sansa in Winterfell.

The writers have accidentally done something that makes sense.
 
He didn't come out of nowhere. He came from the Riverlands.

Theories that Littlefinger, Varys, etc. are behind things like the Sparrows just don't work for me, because it essentially reduces the whole series down the schemes of a handful of people. And there's no shortage of such scheming already; the Sparrows are one of the few populist movements in the books, and they have a completely organic origin story that doesn't require any further explanation. Having them be some kind of ploy undermines completely the ideas they represent.

They can be organic and populist and legit but used and positioned in the game though, no? Fits the overall theme.
 

Sean C

Member
Actually, Littlefinger conspiring to put the High Sparrow in power makes more sense than Sansa in Winterfell.

The writers have accidentally done something that makes sense.
If you're talking about the show, I don't think Littlefinger could plausibly be behind that, because the rise of the High Sparrow was 100% Cersei, completely free of external influences.
 

Bitmap Frogs

Mr. Community
I'm gonna just leave this here:

u2jgE6Y.jpg
 

Speevy

Banned
If you're talking about the show, I don't think Littlefinger could plausibly be behind that, because the rise of the High Sparrow was 100% Cersei, completely free of external influences.


Not behind it in the twirly mustache "IT WAS ME AUSTIN" sense, but in the sense of creating another chaotic situation in King's Landing, I can buy that.
 

methodman

Banned
I got it.

In ep 9, Jon gets caught warging into ghost by olly, Ser Allister, etc. In ep 10 they kill him because he fucked a wildling and now wargs like a Wildling. Last scene of the season - as he dies, we see his eyes go white as he wargs.
 

Madness

Member
Good find. We can finally stop pretending that Stoneheart will ever be on the show now.

Once season 3 ended with no Stoneheart, and season 4 started with no Stoneheart, pretty much guaranteed the character was cut. Maybe it's just not a big story in the books, and they hardly have time to develop main story lines as it is in show, how would they explain beric, brotherhood without banners, Frey betrayal and bringing Catelyn back again?

Some show only watchers I speak to, forgot or stopped caring about Bran as well since he wasn't in this season. Will be another year before they see him again.
 

-griffy-

Banned
Just watched the episode again, I think that last scene is the single best scene the show has done yet (the run from the gate, to Night King on the dock until cut to black). From conception to execution. It's one of the most chilling things I've ever seen in a TV show. The amount of dread and hopelessness conveyed by the situation, dropping the music out as the eyelids snap open, the arrogance of the Night King, letting the moment hang in silence and seeing Jon's complete and utter disbelief. It was was just perfect really.
 

golem

Member
He didn't come out of nowhere. He came from the Riverlands.

Theories that Littlefinger, Varys, etc. are behind things like the Sparrows just don't work for me, because it essentially reduces the whole series down the schemes of a handful of people. And there's no shortage of such scheming already; the Sparrows are one of the few populist movements in the books, and they have a completely organic origin story that doesn't require any further explanation. Having them be some kind of ploy undermines completely the ideas they represent.
And who grew up in Riverrun?

Stuff in ASOIAF doesn't just happen... Least of all populist movements
 

Speevy

Banned
If Littlefinger knows Tywin is dead, he knows that he can send one of his spies to the already existing sparrows. The faith don't have to be corrupt for this to work.

The sparrows infiltrate Littlefinger's brothel on their information and find the High Septon.

The High Septon demands justice for this outrage, but Littlefinger calculates that the crown won't risk angering the people by giving a corrupt religious leader with no bargaining position their support. What they do instead is back the sparrows .

Littlefinger may not know that Cersei would arm them, but just letting them hold sway over the people in King's Landing is more than enough to cause a great amount of civil unrest.

Now, once shit goes down, Littlefinger lets Polyvar know his game and Polyvar (being one of LF's spies and his brothel keeper) voluntarily turns on Loras, and inadvertently get Margaery imprisoned in the process.

Having Cersei imprisoned was a total accident, which is why her penance walk results in her freedom, and why Kevan is now back to fix things once the walk is over.

Having Margaery and Loras imprisoned is convenient for Littlefinger because it allows him to drive the Tyrells even further from the Lannisters while he bids for the north.
 

carlsojo

Member
What isn't a Littlefinger plot at this point.

starting to think he's the Many Faced God. makes about as much sense as all the other theories seemingly coming true.

Personally, I suspect he's working for the Night's King seeing as how he is basically doing his fucking job for him.
 

Sean C

Member
And who grew up in Riverrun?

Stuff in ASOIAF doesn't just happen... Least of all populist movements
Which would somehow mean he knows a random traveling septon who ministers to poor villages?

GRRM has created a world with depth. The High Septon is exactly what he appears to be, because him being anything else completely undermines the idea that the common people have any sort of role in this story. That doesn't mean that the other players don't seek to react to the existence of his movement, but the movement itself is not a ploy.

The High Septon demands justice for this outrage, but Littlefinger calculates that the crown won't risk angering the people by giving a corrupt religious leader with no bargaining position their support. What they do instead is back the sparrows .
That's a huge, huge reach, and unsupported by the text, where nobody in the small council suggests that.
 

golem

Member
Which would somehow mean he knows a random traveling septon who ministers to poor villages?

GRRM has created a world with depth. The High Septon is exactly what he appears to be, because him being anything else completely undermines the idea that the common people have any sort of role in this story. That doesn't mean that the other players don't seek to react to the existence of his movement, but the movement itself is not a ploy.

The High Sparrow might not be a direct agent of Littlefinger, but it seems quite possible that he was at least nudged in a certain direction by others. You don't go from preaching to small villages to storming a gathering of septons on a whim.
 

Speevy

Banned
That's a huge, huge reach, and unsupported by the text, where nobody in the small council suggests that.


Does Tywin Lannister support Littlefinger? He's the only missing variable here.

We are to assume that the High Septon is a frequent guest at Littlefinger's brothel, so either the man with 1,000 spies can't keep a bunch of religious fanatics out of his doors, or they're there by design.
 
The High Sparrow might not be a direct agent of Littlefinger, but it seems quite possible that he was at least nudged in a certain direction by others. You don't go from preaching to small villages to storming a gathering of septons on a whim.
You do when you read affc and realize what is happening to the faith and the commoners.
 
Seven episodes of floundering around with poor attempts at original material and suddenly they drop this straight-up masterpiece on us?

I don't understand it, but I'll take it.
 
You mean the group already being led by the soon high sparrow to be?
Yes? Do you think he magically appeared on the road? Characters have backstory and unseen development. Could he be lf's agent? Sure. He could be howland reed. He could be syrio and jaquen and benjdaarioueron.

It's pretty clear based on the text that he is what he is though, but that's like, my opinion man.
 

bengraven

Member
I have to admit, I don't have much to say about this week's episode. Started a new job today and so my mind has mostly been on that, but when it's not it's on the show and my thoughts echo all of yours.

One thing though: I'm fairly certain that Walker that Jon killed is the same one Sam saw at the end of Season 2 and the one that took the baby to the NK.

o7W8V9y.gif


Birgitte Hjort Sorensen <3

This hasn't gotten mentioned enough. I'm a grown adult and nothing really scares me, but this fucking scene here actually unnerved me a bit. The skinny ass kid mostly. I've seen a billion zombies in movies, including children, and this thing unnerved me even more than emotional scenes like zSophie and the "look at the flowers" girl from Walking Dead.

I think I wanted this to end sooner than Sansa's wedding night.
 

Speevy

Banned
Here's a query for those who completely doubt Littlefinger's involvement (again, I didn't say he is 100% behind it).


Why would he not muster a force and kill the sparrows himself since they destroyed his brothel and kidnapped his allies (the Tyrells)?

Why would he be totally okay with this if it weren't benefiting him in some way?
 
Right, but in the show we need a 10 second excuse for religion to be prominent in Westeros, and Littlefinger urging it on makes as much sense as any...in the show.
Lf taking advantage of what's going on is a lot more plausible than lf masterminding a religious movement. But who knows.
 

Tabris

Member
I wonder how detailed the outline GRRM gave the show creators is? I know they know end game, but how detailed is each characters outline?

That'll be the big question for book readers going into the next season - Is this a divergence or just consolidation?
 
Yes? Do you think he magically appeared on the road? Characters have backstory and unseen development. Could he be lf's agent? Sure. He could be howland reed. He could be syrio and jaquen and benjdaarioueron.

It's pretty clear based on the text that he is what he is though, but that's like, my opinion man.

No man, as long as you can find a vague reference that might be interpreted as an oblique hint, that's all you need to make a great ASOIAF theory.
Or a popular one, at least.
 
Here's a query for those who completely doubt Littlefinger's involvement (again, I didn't say he is 100% behind it).


Why would he not muster a force and kill the sparrows himself since they destroyed his brothel and kidnapped his allies (the Tyrells)?

Why would he be totally okay with this if it weren't benefiting him in some way?
Why don't cersei supporters cut through the sparrows to bring the king's mother out of improsonment? Why don't the tyrells with tens of thousands of soldiers say fuck off with this trial bullshit of the queen?

Lf doesn't do things by main force anyway, he'd make lemonade out of his brothel being destroyed or use the chaos of all of it to his advantage.
 

Speevy

Banned
Why don't cersei supporters cut through the sparrows to bring the king's mother out of improsonment? Why don't the tyrells with tens of thousands of soldiers say fuck off with this trial bullshit of the queen? Lf doesn't do things by main force anyway, he'd make lemonade out of his brother being destroyed or use the chaos of all of it to his advantage.

In the show, Cersei has convinced her son that he is powerless to do anything about what is happening to his family.

The Lannister soldiers believe the religious rule is what the king wants.
 
Oh cripes you guys got me reading about Littlefinger theories, and I just made the connection that he was responsible for the very first plot point that the whole series starts off with - the death of Jon Arryn.

(Am a non book reader, kinda wish the show underscored that somehow)
 
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